Quake? on 08/08/2012 09:07 PM CDT
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Out of curiosity, do people actually use this spell? I know my Sorcerer doesn't.

GameMaster Oscuro
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 09:34 PM CDT
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>Out of curiosity, do people actually use this spell? I know my Sorcerer doesn't.

The only time I've seen sorcerers use it is when some (expletive deleted so the post won't be) sorcerer uses it near a populated area in town to give himself a chuckle. Certain sorcerers with names beginning in K, J, and X particularly seem to enjoy using it in such a manner. Seems the last time any of the three used it they suffered a horrendous and painful death within minutes of the quake. Darned uppity wizards.

-Anonymous
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 10:01 PM CDT
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I dont think I have cast that spell in 5 years easy.
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 10:04 PM CDT
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>Out of curiosity, do people actually use this spell? I know my Sorcerer doesn't.

I use it when I overrun bandits (or run away from them, shh). Before I go back to slaughter, I'll quake to get them down first.

~Allereli
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 10:21 PM CDT
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I've used it on bandits when I have 3 of them, but no other situation I can think of.
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 10:24 PM CDT
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I'd certainly approve of opening the spell slot if it were made an illusion. maybe replace maelstrom :D
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 10:27 PM CDT
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audience reps would be really fun
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Re: Quake? on 08/08/2012 11:03 PM CDT
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>Out of curiosity, do people actually use this spell? I know my Sorcerer doesn't.

Yes, frequently. I use it prior to using 740 to return from a hunt; dropping those pesky, hidden executioners and magus and preventing mobs from nearby rooms from running in while I'm drawing circles on the ground makes it a much safer endeavor. I know others who use it during AG children tasks, too. Plz don't be getting any crazy ideas about removing it.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 12:03 AM CDT
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I'm with Rakkash. My sorcerer has used quake on a regular basis for large chunks of his career, including at cap. Knocking executioners and magi out of hiding, returning from child tasks in Nelemar, preventing swarms from gathering, proning dangerous critters before entering a room, etc. It was invaluable on plane 5 of the Rift: peer, quake to knock a vaespilon down, walk into the room, bolt it while it's still in RT with its DS tanked. Ditto in the Scatter, knocking over fetish masters before entering prevents the cheapo insta-spikethorn that happens when their round happens to match up with your entry.

Handy spell, one of the hidden gems of sorcery.

While we're on the subject, though... The quake is merely a projected illusion according to the messaging and documentation, so why does it trigger avalanches on Aenatumgana? Unless the illusion is so convincing that the mountain is fooled...

Dave, Brandain's Bard
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 12:27 AM CDT
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I have not used it in a long time (and I am talking SINCE I left for four years). I had used it briefly, about 30 levels prior to Kastrel's current level, but not again after. I always felt E-wave served the same purpose, without that ever present risk of "Oops, I just proned some poor jerk a room away and didn't know it!". E-wave has the same "same room" public safety risk, but not the same out of room risk. That said, I can see it used for that very purpose . . . to prone enemies you don't want to be near. Good for child tasks and dangerous enemy tasks I guess.

Kind of redundant with E-Wave though.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 01:41 AM CDT
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>The only time I've seen sorcerers use it is when some (expletive deleted so the post won't be) sorcerer uses it near a populated area in town to give himself a chuckle. Certain sorcerers with names beginning in K, J, and X particularly seem to enjoy using it in such a manner.

While not a sorcerer, I am certainly guilty of this. But then again its me, what do you expect? Somewhere I've got a clip where I knocked over 130ish people.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 03:54 AM CDT
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I use it some....Less than I did before. I found it useful with the peer verb and also for knocking down casters before i walk into a room so i can 708 or 703 them. It might just be me but it seems to knockdown better than 709 but thats probably not true.

Player of Malisai
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 06:55 AM CDT
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I don't use it myself, mostly because I forget I have it most of the time. One of two times I can remember using it was during a 3 AM invasion of RR where there were all of three of us in town at the time and were were all in the same group. I needed to conserve every point of mana I could so used quake instead of 410. The other was when I was hunting shelfae 45 levels ago and didn't have 410 yet.

Really, 410 is superior to 709 in a couple ways for only one additional mana. As others have mentioned, I don't have to worry about accidentally causing the death of someone I'm not even aware is in the area with 410, but 410 also puts critters in hard RT which prevents them from standing up right away as they can do with 709. When need to use these spells, it's usually because I'm being swarmed and need a bit of breathing room, if they stand up right away I'm not getting that... heck, even if I hunted with wizard wands and our two bolt spells, 709's not going to keep anything on the ground long enough to allow me to take advantage of the lowered DS most of the time.

If 709 persisted the way tremors does or had a chance to break limbs, I could see potentially using it... but as it stands now, I doubt I'd miss it if there's a decent replacement in mind for it. Note though, anything that requires me to carry more components then I already do won't be decent and will likely be used every bit as much as I presently use 709.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 07:53 AM CDT
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I use it occasionally (I'm guessing five times a week as someone who plays a lot), especially when I've peered ahead and am about to walk into a room full of critters to rescue a dead person. I certainly would not be upset if it were replaced with something more useful.

Did you know it can be projected through planar rifts? It's a way to make a big entrance. Our other spell that affects adjacent rooms, unfocused implosion, cannot be projected through a rift. That would be a way to make an even bigger entrance.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 08:08 AM CDT
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<< ...but 410 also puts critters in hard RT which prevents them from standing up right away as they can do with 709. >>

Quake also causes hard RT. I'm not sure how the amount of RT compares to e-wave. Although I have not tried the combo in a long time, I think I remember that quake RT can be stacked with e-wave RT.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 08:22 AM CDT
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When my Sorcerer was a 2Hand swinger, I would use it on a regular basis: simply the fact that it triggers multiple times and can affect all the beasties in the room made it worthwhile. (EWave only fires off the single time that you cast it.)
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 08:41 AM CDT
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Tremors fires multiple times. Quake only fires once, but Quake affects adjoining rooms.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 10:10 AM CDT
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Hmmm... maybe I was thinking of the Mage? <shrug> Moving on!
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 01:22 PM CDT
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Yes, I use Quake all the time in Nelemar, and hunting Bandits. It's pretty helpful when you draw the sorcerer character in blindfolded CvC against a square class.

And yes, the occasional Town Square cast when justice is turned off. Hey, you never know when there are hidden bad guys in the corner...
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 04:54 PM CDT
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Very useful for bandits since they have a tendency to hide in adjacent rooms. If you stumble across one or two that ambush you, quake after you dispatch them and often if you PEER there's another couple laying on the ground in another room.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 07:22 PM CDT
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Use it ALL the time (combined with an effective peerall macro) to hunt.

Setup three bandits with quake. Hit them all (Spirit Light or Balefire is super handy, add an ebladed runestaff for effect) to stun. Followup with a shot of major ewave and you have three possible instant kills using a setup in this manner.

Would love to have this one in my pocket for life.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 08:30 PM CDT
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Also good in conjucture with tormenting adjacent room critters, knock downs help in all sorts of ways.
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Re: Quake? on 08/09/2012 09:29 PM CDT
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>Yes, I use Quake all the time in Nelemar, and hunting Bandits. It's pretty helpful when you draw the sorcerer character in blindfolded CvC against a square class.

Yep. If we lose quake, I will have no choice but to revert to open implosion in both situations. Not my preferred method, but I'll do what I need to.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 07:47 AM CDT
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>>If we lose quake, I will have no choice but to revert to open implosion in both situations. Not my preferred method, but I'll do what I need to.

Is it a sign of the times that we automatically assume we're going to lose Quake because a GM casually queried about it?
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 08:38 AM CDT
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>Is it a sign of the times that we automatically assume we're going to lose Quake because a GM casually queried about it?

Well, when they ask something like that in this folder, it makes me think they might have an idea for something new and would need a place to put it. That question would likely make me feel the same no matter which profession it applied to, especially given the folder it was posted in. Developer's Corner: A place to discuss the future of sorcery. Question: Does anyone use Quake? It's kind of hard not to think something's going on, even if it's just discussion amongst themselves about options for sorcery. I'd think idle speculation would have been in Sorcerer Spells (Discuss sorcerer spells here, existing or otherwise), Sorcerer General Discussion (A place to talk about general sorcery information), or even Hunting Strategies (A place to talk about hunting as a sorcerer) before here. Maybe I'm paranoid. Maybe I'm just crazy.

Or, maybe we could take the 'conspiracy theory' further and suggest Quake was brought up because of it being an illusion of some sort and there may be a desire to clear up some of the sorcerer list confusion as it applies to these pseudo-illusion/mental spells. I don't really think that's the case because it would take a bit more work than just swapping out one spell, but ya never know. Gotta start somewhere, right (which, truth be told, they already did long ago by taking away Forget. Perhaps the decisions of past GMs with regard to some of our spells and their weak, "We had to make some changes to account for mentalists being added, so here's the new theory behind your remaining 'mental' spells", are being reconsidered)? We've got a whole new crop of GMs doing things now, monks and the minor mental list have been released, and I guess sometime in the next five years we may see Savants. It could certainly have been idle speculation on his part, but with it being in the Developer's Corner folder, a true mental-based profession now a reality, and another slated sometime in the future, I'll believe there was nothing more behind it when we're told so.

For what it may be worth, if they are kicking around some new ideas that would require a spell slot, I can think of a couple spells I use a whole lot less than Quake; Eye Spy (which has been suggested to be moved into guild illusions in the past), disease, and torment. Torment is cool, I guess, and fits the profession. I just don't use it, ever. Eye Spy is essentially only used for mass Evil Eye, I'm guessing. And we all know Disease is a steaming pile of crap with only one decent purpose (killing players) and was slated several years ago for review, which obviously never happened.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 11:40 AM CDT
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>>Well, when they ask something like that in this folder, it makes me think they might have an idea for something new and would need a place to put it.

I used this folder because I wanted feedback on how people used (or didn't use) the spell so I can better understand Sorcerers' hunting strategies and to see if they're missing a niche or duplicating one. As far as I know, there aren't plans to remove Quake from the spell list.

GameMaster Oscuro
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 01:23 PM CDT
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The only time I used quake is when I was hunting with higher level people, it seemed to work slightly better than ewave(who knows if its true) or in town since it was legal to cast where ewave was not.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 01:26 PM CDT
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>Also good in conjucture with tormenting adjacent room critters, knock downs help in all sorts of ways.

Hey, that's danged clever. I did a few levels hunting with 718 as a primary attack, and that would have come in very handy. Wish I'd thought of it!

Dave, Brandain's Bard
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 01:31 PM CDT
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>>it seemed to work slightly better than ewave(who knows if its true)

Both these spells are also affected by having ranks in said circle, you likely have more sorcerer ranks then MnE, which would make you better at quake then ewave.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 02:44 PM CDT
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>>I used this folder because I wanted feedback on how people used (or didn't use) the spell so I can better understand Sorcerers' hunting strategies and to see if they're missing a niche or duplicating one. As far as I know, there aren't plans to remove Quake from the spell list.

GameMaster Oscuro

Not sure if this will be of any help to you, but this has always been how I used the Sorcerer circle.

Blood Burst - This was my primary damage dealer until around level 25. Tag every enemy in a hunting ground with it to max bleed, and just cycle. I had SERIOUS mana issues in my early levels, and this was my only solution.

Mana Disruption - My primary damage dealer from level 25-75. I'm still using this as my main attack. I usually channel from Guarded, but on non-breakable stun enemies, I will Mind Jolt then stance offensive channel. There were some hunting grounds I felt comfortable enough to clear both hands and then offensive channel from, but not all.

Corrupt Essence - Another issue I had in my early days was a SERIOUS warding problem. No mana + no CS = Crap sorcerer. Hence, if an enemy prepped a spell and I had to rely on a 70% chance to 703 them . . . it wasn't worth my time (70% WITH the TD pushdown). Its only recently become useful for me at around level 65-75.

Phase - I haven't had many chances to use it, but I think it serves its niche well as a weight decreaser.

Disintegration - I always was under the assumption that 705 was sort of "pay 2.5x the mana for 702, get 2x the damage". Now that my mana problems are finally sorting themselves out, this hasn't quite been the case. A stance guarded channel MD is ALMOST as effective as a stance guarded channel of 705, and I find it not worth the extra 3 mana. I have never hunted non-corp enemies, however.

Mind Jolt - Amazing spell. Too bad I couldn't use it functionally until level 70. Its very powerful, but with my mana and CS issues, it wasn't reliable for a very long time.

Limb Disruption - I can see this spell being a useful disabler on non-stunnable enemies, but I don't 2x in Spell Aim, so its only average. Add in my CS issues, and needing like a 90+ endroll to disable, and it wasn't much good for me until recently. Great for playing with low level friends.

Quake - I was heavily discouraged from using this spell in early days due to the worry of hurting other players. Due to that, I use 410 instead. Less chance to hurt an unsuspecting player. Its out of room benefits are nice, but its redundant. A good temporary disabler for maneuver based enemies or things you can't ward well.

Maelstrom - I haven't used this spell since . . . oh god, I don't know, level 15? I used to focus Maelstrom enemies hunting stags outside of Illistim. You know, I should try using this some more . . . I will do that today.

Pain - I am not at a level where this is a viable use of my mana, except on a handful of enemies who aren't easily stunned/disabled. Last time I used it was to RT a black forest ogre who may have killed a bounty rescue child mission I was dragging out of Maaghara temple. I think this spell is great, but 33 mana to kill is too high for me as of yet.

Cloak of Shadows - Its our only real "stun defense", so in that regard, its great. Unfortunately, its not very good for sorcerers who can't ward for beans (me until level 60).

Balefire - I'm still getting used to this spell. I'm not 2x in Spell Aiming, so its not viable for me, but thats just my training choice.

Curse - Its great that the TD pushdown is warding free, because I can tell you, my CS issues relied heavily upon this for tough enemies. If I had to WARD Curse, I would have been out of luck. I haven't used Curse of the Star yet, mostly because my AS still wouldn't be high enough for Balefire.

Disease - What exactly is disease but Blood Burst that costs 15x the mana? I can tag most enemies up to 35 bleed per bleed pulse with 4-5 mana, but Disease might only do 50 or so with one cast. Especially without the health regen Necromancy aspect, this power is redundant and costs way to much mana to be a "slightly better" 701.

Evil Eye - As it currently stands, Evil Eye is still not mana-effective for me. My CS was always low, and without an amazingly high endroll, all it functions as is a glorified Mind Jolt worth 3x the mana. The unfocused aspect is nice, but with a TD pushdown, out of the question for me. I see this being more useful in 15 levels or so.

Torment - I'm afraid of this spell. I'm cautious by nature, and I just don't have the guts to use a spell which will backfire on me like this if I screw it up. I'd like to learn to use it, especially since I have so much in Demonology. Just too cowardly, I guess.

Dark Catalyst - Is it sad that I absolutely love this spell now, and its only been viable for me for 2 or 3 levels? It JUST became mana effective for me in Maaghara Tower, since all of the enemies there are pretty weak to it, and I now have just enough CS and Mana to kill effectively with it. That said, it was a spell of fun and wastefulness until 70+ for me.

Implosion - I use Implosion as my "oh hey, 4 enemies came into the room at once" spell. I tend to 706+702 enemies, and if a second enemy walks in, I usually 706 them as well. If even MORE come in, it becomes more efficient to just 720+417 rather than try to cast Mana Disruption 30+ times and get hit with maneuvers, spells, or have stuns run out. Its good for what it is, I think.

Its important to note that these perspectives are from someone who has ALWAYS had a pervasive CS and Mana issue, always hunts alone, and very rarely uses outside spells. Hope thats of use to you.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 02:56 PM CDT
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>>Implosion - I use Implosion as my "oh hey, 4 enemies came into the room at once" spell. I tend to 706+702 enemies, and if a second enemy walks in, I usually 706 them as well. If even MORE come in, it becomes more efficient to just 720+417 rather than try to cast Mana Disruption 30+ times and get hit with maneuvers, spells, or have stuns run out. Its good for what it is, I think.<<

Major e-wave first, then open implosion. Poof!


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 02:57 PM CDT
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Ooooh! Quake can be cast in town without getting arrested??

::runs off cackling, preparing to quake every room in the Landing::

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 04:34 PM CDT
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>I used this folder because I wanted feedback on how people used (or didn't use) the spell so I can better understand Sorcerers' hunting strategies and to see if they're missing a niche or duplicating one.

One of the things I like the most about sorcerers is that we pretty much have a tool for everything. There may be some redundancy in a couple areas, though, if that's what you're looking for as far as duplicating a niche goes. It's probably the worst in the knockdown department when you consider 708, 709, Nightmare, Clumsy, and 410/435. Of those, the curses are the least useful by far, especially if you consider the mana cost. Clumsy is trumped by 708 permanently keeping something on the ground, usually for half the mana while Nightmare is beat by 706 if you want stuns and 708 for knockdowns; the only real use Nightmare had was that it could stun things that weren't normally stunnable. Unfortunately, I think that was fixed when it was rolled into Curse, but I haven't tested it much and could be wrong.

Other redundancies: 702/705 as low level hunting spells and 706/Nightmare for stuns. The stun thing isn't really an issue with Nightmare being a curse, but, as I'm sure you've gathered by now, the 702/705 thing is a problem.

>As far as I know, there aren't plans to remove Quake from the spell list.

That's good to hear. Replacing it with 720 would have been horribly inefficient.
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 04:50 PM CDT
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So, I just popped over to the monk folder and found an interesting post that sort of ties into this thread a little. In case anyone thinks there may have been some Chicken Littleing going on here:

"The dev team's current release policy is now to just pose questions for feedback, but to not give away any details about what we might be planning. Because it often changes. Is that a shame that you're not getting your tidbits of previews? Yes. But you know when you do see announcements like those Coase made about Voln's updates, you can rest assured that stuff is coming down the pipe. (This is of course just the dev's team's policy. I don't know how the CE side is handling this stuff these days.)

GameMaster Oscuro"

Not saying Oscuro wasn't being truthful with us or anything like that, but the statement above just solidifies the fact that, when questions come out of no-where, there is probably a reason behind it. And we probably won't be told why :)
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 04:56 PM CDT
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>>Not saying Oscuro wasn't being truthful with us or anything like that, but the statement above just solidifies the fact that, when questions come out of no-where, there is probably a reason behind it. And we probably won't be told why :)

I read that post as well. I take Oscuro's interest to mean the following: That someone is paying attention and looking to see if anything needs to be fixed. There may or may not be plans in the works to adjust things, but its possible, and in the mean time, Oscuro wants our feedback. I take it to mean someone cares and is paying attention, so I am extremely grateful that Oscuro even made that post. Definitely agree with you!
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 09:08 PM CDT
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>Ooooh! Quake can be cast in town without getting arrested??

Indeed it can. There are also some very interesting ways to kill foolish sorcerers who use quake in town with malice without even getting arrested. Lots and lots of ways.

-Anonymous
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Re: Quake? on 08/10/2012 09:21 PM CDT
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And even a few that are well worth the investment into the town's coffers, just for impact.

Doug
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Re: Quake? on 08/11/2012 02:08 PM CDT
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>>Indeed it can. There are also some very interesting ways to kill foolish sorcerers who use quake in town with malice without even getting arrested. Lots and lots of ways.<<

Indeed; and I can kill everyone in TSC in several ways despite the sanctuary; although I WILL get arrested if I hang around to see the fun. Fooey!


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
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Re: Quake? on 08/13/2012 03:15 PM CDT
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I rarely use it, but it does have a use. If you use 709 then 410 you can usually get more RT on the critter, or they'll find it harder to dodge your 410. The biggest problem is the large immunity to 709 so many critters have, it is really hard to hit things with it.
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Re: Quake? on 08/13/2012 03:20 PM CDT
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... but really of all the spells that need looking at, quake is way down on my list.
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