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Tossing it out there.
Monks have got some focus spells, introducing the focus mechanic.
Why not get rid of the vakra rune, and make 725 a focus spell? Vakra is just busywork anyways. When 725 was coded there was no precedent for a permanent spell, now there is. It makes sense to me. I would also put 920 under the same system.
>Certainly sets a precedent for 750, if it ever ends up being Lesser Summoning.
I can't see lesser/major summoning ever happening. With all the years and various expectations on what such a spell should be, I don't really blame the GMs if they're afraid to even try. I simply don't think they'd be allowed to make a spell that would make us happy with that slot and anything less would be a disappointment; pretty much a lose-lose for them.
I can't see lesser/major summoning ever happening. With all the years and various expectations on what such a spell should be, I don't really blame the GMs if they're afraid to even try. I simply don't think they'd be allowed to make a spell that would make us happy with that slot and anything less would be a disappointment; pretty much a lose-lose for them.
>Certainly sets a precedent for 750, if it ever ends up being Lesser Summoning.
>I can't see lesser/major summoning ever happening. With all the years and various expectations on what such a spell should be, I don't really blame the GMs if they're afraid to even try. I simply don't think they'd be allowed to make a spell that would make us happy with that slot and anything less would be a disappointment; pretty much a lose-lose for them.
I'd be unhappy if they put any summoning spell in 1750.
Years ago we had lesser pain and greater pain, limb breaking and limb disruption. It was decided this was wasteful, the spells were combined, and end rolls (and later lore) used to decide how much destruction you caused.
We can do higher summoning within the existing framework of 725 without needing a new spell slot. 325 can make you a salad, wash your car, knit a sweater, make chrism gems, and do the equivalent of 420, 435, and 740. 725 can at least be made to summon higher demons.
You simply do it with a lore requirement and change the rune system a little bit. Put demons that require 150 or 200 lore to summon, and 250 lore, and 300 lore, and 400 lore, and 500 lore.
How do you get 500 lore? Remove the +50 enhancive limit for this one skill. Add a demon TEACH ability whereby when you summon a demon and it is active it gives you a lore bonus (different lores) and half the lore bonus to your group. Then you get a bunch of sorcerers together who group up and all summon demons with demonology lore teaching.
No need to make a new spell, spend a slot, just make new demons. It also encourages teamwork and roleplay. What kind of awesome powers could such demons have to make them worthwhile? That would be a long discussion on game balance, I could see them being able to enchant or add flares, restore scrolls to fresh status maybe, recharge magical items, spell us up of course, teach us alchemy secrets, maybe act as a fusion shaman, wouldn't that be cool?
My only problem with the "bundle it into 725" approach is that, given the lore requirements for wimpy minor demons (1x-1.5x at cap? Come on), they WOULD have to have some 500 lore requirement to be useful thing, and unfortunately, I want to be able to use this spell on my own without a 40% chance of lethal backlash, if I had 200 lore. The only way to "bargain" for more phantom ranks:quality ratio is to up the spell slot and make sure its 750, because rolled into 725, it will either be way too hard to use to be worth it or not good enough to use at all.
I get that Sorcerers deal in dangerous magic, I approve of that and I'm proud of it. What I DON'T like is that we are constantly bombarded by backlash and fumble rates which cannot be trained away. As . . . disgustingly lore intensive as it is, that 725 can EVENTUALLY reach 100% safety is what I approve of. And the thing is, I like that style: Give us the most self-risk spells in the game, but make it so that if we really train for it, its completely safe. 740 shouldn't have a same realm failure rate, 712 should have its backlash able to be trained off, etc. My issue is that 725 has already set the bar too high; its 50-150 lore RANK requirement for such a phenomenally trivial (if fun) spell is far to high, and basically means Lesser Summoning would be impossible. Unless it worked exactly the same way, and "valence" summons required 100 ranks, and specific summons required from 200 ranks to 225 (allowing 100% in chamber). I don't see that happening. But thats how it should be, even though it won't. I should be able to summon a level 100 Oculoth/Vathor/Abyran'ra at cap with 200 ranks of Summoning in Chamber. But that won't happen, because a robot-chicken and a fuzzy caterpillar require 125 ranks, which is entirely 2xed at level 62. Where is the comparison? I get that Familiars are mostly RP pets, so I can let that one slide, but Spirit Servant is a utility pet which has 100% success without training, free refresh, no penalties, and functional benefits. That for a 25th rank spell has such steep lore needs, and can only slightly outdo Spirit Servant is a bad sign. While I agree that I see 750 as the "don't touch it or you will ruin it" pipe dream, I definitely don't think it can be pulled off in this slot, unless Minor Summoning were revamped.
On the other hand, what were the other 750 slot suggestions? I've read your Dead Pool suggestion, which sounded awesome though I personally thought it would be . . . limiting. Maybe I didn't understand it, but it sounded like it would be cool but not useful? Lich Form's been around for a while, and a LONG time ago, over two 8 hour shifts in a meat locker, I thought up an extremely extensive expansion on Lich Form, once that offered three subtypes, with Lich form being one for those trained in Necromancy. (the general gist was that the baseline was an Essence Form, where you became super-charged with mana and certain spells were boosted, while sufficient lore training offered a Lich form or a Demonic form, both with unique powers and strengths).
I get that Sorcerers deal in dangerous magic, I approve of that and I'm proud of it. What I DON'T like is that we are constantly bombarded by backlash and fumble rates which cannot be trained away. As . . . disgustingly lore intensive as it is, that 725 can EVENTUALLY reach 100% safety is what I approve of. And the thing is, I like that style: Give us the most self-risk spells in the game, but make it so that if we really train for it, its completely safe. 740 shouldn't have a same realm failure rate, 712 should have its backlash able to be trained off, etc. My issue is that 725 has already set the bar too high; its 50-150 lore RANK requirement for such a phenomenally trivial (if fun) spell is far to high, and basically means Lesser Summoning would be impossible. Unless it worked exactly the same way, and "valence" summons required 100 ranks, and specific summons required from 200 ranks to 225 (allowing 100% in chamber). I don't see that happening. But thats how it should be, even though it won't. I should be able to summon a level 100 Oculoth/Vathor/Abyran'ra at cap with 200 ranks of Summoning in Chamber. But that won't happen, because a robot-chicken and a fuzzy caterpillar require 125 ranks, which is entirely 2xed at level 62. Where is the comparison? I get that Familiars are mostly RP pets, so I can let that one slide, but Spirit Servant is a utility pet which has 100% success without training, free refresh, no penalties, and functional benefits. That for a 25th rank spell has such steep lore needs, and can only slightly outdo Spirit Servant is a bad sign. While I agree that I see 750 as the "don't touch it or you will ruin it" pipe dream, I definitely don't think it can be pulled off in this slot, unless Minor Summoning were revamped.
On the other hand, what were the other 750 slot suggestions? I've read your Dead Pool suggestion, which sounded awesome though I personally thought it would be . . . limiting. Maybe I didn't understand it, but it sounded like it would be cool but not useful? Lich Form's been around for a while, and a LONG time ago, over two 8 hour shifts in a meat locker, I thought up an extremely extensive expansion on Lich Form, once that offered three subtypes, with Lich form being one for those trained in Necromancy. (the general gist was that the baseline was an Essence Form, where you became super-charged with mana and certain spells were boosted, while sufficient lore training offered a Lich form or a Demonic form, both with unique powers and strengths).
Alright, wait a second. I'm thinking from the "bundle it in" perspective.
I've suggested this like, 4 times in the past week, and I'm about to do it again, because I think its a rarely considered mechanic that is extremely useful, in my opinion, for dictating spell strength. The Cleric spell Raise Dead becomes Life Restoration at 25 ranks of Cleric spells, and Resurrection at 40 ranks of Cleric spells. Bless Item grants Holy Water flares at 25 ranks, and can bless magic metals at 40 ranks. No additional training is required, it is simply a benefit conferred by the Cleric spell circle.
Why not apply an effect like this to Minor Summoning? At 50 ranks of Sorcerer spells, the spell becomes Demonic Summoning, and you gain access to the full use of the spell, lesser demons and all. I'd go so far as to suggest that you would get an additional 25 phantom ranks to minor demon summoning, because really, a level 50 Sorcerer in a summoning chamber, using a mandatory runestone with a silver cost, should be able to use this spell without worrying about getting backlash. Its just not powerful enough to justify that. Out of chamber valence summoning would still have a 25% backlash, and archetype and demon specific would simply be adjusted downwards (Abyran'sa in a chamber would still require 100 ranks to be 100%, using a rare rune which only a few sorcerers know. Tell me thats broken. I dare ALL YALL!). Then proceed to (insert demonic summoning here). And I encourage an additional level component. Sorcerer spell ranks should contribute to the spell, which they barely do for 725 (20 seconds duration per rank is not exactly a good contribution).
Heck, further divide it up. Follow Virilneus' concept of lower tier lesser demons and higher. Call 725 at rank 50 "lesser summoning" and then at 75 call it "demonic summoning", and unlock the full tier.
That said, I'm still of the belief that this spell should be able to be trained to relative safety. At level 50, this spell should backlash horrendously on careless sorcerers. It should be VERY HARD to train off too, but once trained off, we should be masters of the art, not corpses waiting to happen.
I've suggested this like, 4 times in the past week, and I'm about to do it again, because I think its a rarely considered mechanic that is extremely useful, in my opinion, for dictating spell strength. The Cleric spell Raise Dead becomes Life Restoration at 25 ranks of Cleric spells, and Resurrection at 40 ranks of Cleric spells. Bless Item grants Holy Water flares at 25 ranks, and can bless magic metals at 40 ranks. No additional training is required, it is simply a benefit conferred by the Cleric spell circle.
Why not apply an effect like this to Minor Summoning? At 50 ranks of Sorcerer spells, the spell becomes Demonic Summoning, and you gain access to the full use of the spell, lesser demons and all. I'd go so far as to suggest that you would get an additional 25 phantom ranks to minor demon summoning, because really, a level 50 Sorcerer in a summoning chamber, using a mandatory runestone with a silver cost, should be able to use this spell without worrying about getting backlash. Its just not powerful enough to justify that. Out of chamber valence summoning would still have a 25% backlash, and archetype and demon specific would simply be adjusted downwards (Abyran'sa in a chamber would still require 100 ranks to be 100%, using a rare rune which only a few sorcerers know. Tell me thats broken. I dare ALL YALL!). Then proceed to (insert demonic summoning here). And I encourage an additional level component. Sorcerer spell ranks should contribute to the spell, which they barely do for 725 (20 seconds duration per rank is not exactly a good contribution).
Heck, further divide it up. Follow Virilneus' concept of lower tier lesser demons and higher. Call 725 at rank 50 "lesser summoning" and then at 75 call it "demonic summoning", and unlock the full tier.
That said, I'm still of the belief that this spell should be able to be trained to relative safety. At level 50, this spell should backlash horrendously on careless sorcerers. It should be VERY HARD to train off too, but once trained off, we should be masters of the art, not corpses waiting to happen.
>My only problem with the "bundle it into 725" approach is that, given the lore requirements for wimpy minor demons (1x-1.5x at cap? Come on), they WOULD have to have some 500 lore requirement to be useful thing, and unfortunately, I want to be able to use this spell on my own without a 40% chance of lethal backlash, if I had 200 lore. The only way to "bargain" for more phantom ranks:quality ratio is to up the spell slot and make sure its 750, because rolled into 725, it will either be way too hard to use to be worth it or not good enough to use at all.
Thats why I said we'd need to tweak existing demons.
I do not like existing thresholds, I do not like the existing uncommon rune system. I think lore thresholds need to be lowered and the uncommon rune system changed to a bonus system, rather than a requirement system. Meaning, any sorcerer can attempt to summon any specific demon they desire, using the specific rune provides a bonus to the attempt, but is not required.
I would instead seed difficulties for current demons (not using a runestone) starting at 10 ranks moving up to say 120 ranks, with the using a runestone bonus perhaps being a phantom 20 ranks. I would put the first "lesser demon" at 150 ranks, another at 200 ranks, and another at 250 ranks. These would merely be more powerful versions of our current demons. I would put new even more powerful demons with specific utility benefits at higher than 250 ranks.
You only run into the risk of something "not being worth it" if it takes up a spell slot. Putting demon summoning into 750 is riskier than 725 because, as you say... "it will either be way too hard to use to be worth it or not good enough to use at all." only this time it takes an entire spell slot up. So we essentially waste a slot on a spell people will rarely use.
We want any higher demon summoning to be powerful right? If it is powerful then it cannot be commonly used, the more powerful it is the rarer it has to be used. That is balance, incredible cosmic power has to come with itty bitty living space. There is a trade off there. But no one wants a spell slot taken up by a spell you'd cast once a year maybe.
By putting it in 725 we avoid that fate, we can tweak lore requirements to ensure it is used only very rarely, thus justifying power, but we will not be using a spell slot on something that is rarely used, and possibly by a large number of sorcerers, never used.
Instead we can put something with immediate frequent utility to all sorcerers in 1750, like how useful regenerate is to empaths or miracle is to clerics.
Likewise, with lich form, if we were ever to get such a thing, I'd just assume be put as an upper lore requirement through 730.
My deadpool idea I'm not that attached to. Essentially it is a negative node, or blood burst writ large and affecting more than just health, and everything it drained (mana health stamina spirit) would be channeled to the sorcerer based on efficiency decided by some(multiple?) skill requirements. Kind of like many of those random draining rooms in the rift, but for our benefit. I think its powerful enough for a 50th slot, I think it is beneficial enough for wide use among sorcerers, and I think it fits the profession. As much as I sort of hate the idea of components, you could even tie it to a gem, which would need to be left on the ground. The sorcerer could curse it or whatever to warn people away, or shadow it with illusions (putting another use to our guild skill) Of course I also hate illusions, but if we must learn them, might as well get more use out of them. Or phase it (on the ground) so it couldn't be picked up, something. Like you'd cast it on a gem, or even go through an interesting (one time) process of gem creation, turning it into a little black hole you can place anywhere, then retrieve later. Nothing too involved, and long lasting so it isn't annoying. Or have a demon carry it around.
The only downside of course is it could provoke some CvC.
What could also be cool is if the spell (any 1750 spell) wasn't released publicly, no spell description was given in official docs, word of it passed through teaches like Sacrifice, like it was a professional secret. It'd eventually leak to places like Krakii I'm sure, COL isn't a secret afterall, but we could pretend it was.
>What could also be cool is if the spell (any 1750 spell) wasn't released publicly, no spell description was given in official docs, word of it passed through teaches like Sacrifice, like it was a professional secret. It'd eventually leak to places like Krakii I'm sure, COL isn't a secret afterall, but we could pretend it was.
I'd be entirely in support of this.
That said, the rank 20 task for Guardians of Sunfist isn't up on either Krakiipedia or GSGuides, so you never know, some sense of ethical obligation may rise out of the players.
Thoughts on a melee applicability for Cloak of Shadows? The spell is ultra powerful, and I have a feeling thats going to work against such an idea, but the thing is, its so powerful because we have to put all our eggs in one basket, it being our only primary circle buff (Curse of Star being an additional one). Elemental Targeting's AS boost is a start, but is completely overwhelmed by 102's AS reduction, meaning we either need to go without, or suffer a huge penalty (one which Clerics can overcome as long as their Minor Spiritual does not go over 70, and Empaths blow out of the water).
That said, a simple AS buff isn't enough in my opinion. I would like to see some sort of additional combat function, which I mentioned previously as Shadowdeath flares, but could be anything, whether it be double-hit flares, haste-flares, AS flares, or the like. That might give us a reason to go melee-path.
I'd be entirely in support of this.
That said, the rank 20 task for Guardians of Sunfist isn't up on either Krakiipedia or GSGuides, so you never know, some sense of ethical obligation may rise out of the players.
Thoughts on a melee applicability for Cloak of Shadows? The spell is ultra powerful, and I have a feeling thats going to work against such an idea, but the thing is, its so powerful because we have to put all our eggs in one basket, it being our only primary circle buff (Curse of Star being an additional one). Elemental Targeting's AS boost is a start, but is completely overwhelmed by 102's AS reduction, meaning we either need to go without, or suffer a huge penalty (one which Clerics can overcome as long as their Minor Spiritual does not go over 70, and Empaths blow out of the water).
That said, a simple AS buff isn't enough in my opinion. I would like to see some sort of additional combat function, which I mentioned previously as Shadowdeath flares, but could be anything, whether it be double-hit flares, haste-flares, AS flares, or the like. That might give us a reason to go melee-path.
