>Phase: Barely use it for encumbrance, boxes go in disks and my hunts take 1 or 2 minutes

I hunt for an hour straight last weekend. phase is awesome.

>>Balefire: Rarely use it, maybe the demon lore makes a difference for people who do
It is a matter of playing style. I use it when I participate in bandit bounties. I could see it being helpful where creatures swarm like crazy or the TDs of invading creatures are so high that it isn't practical to use CS based spells.

>>Cloak of Shadows: I cannot recall the last time I saw this proc (it's the RT and not the stun that gets me)
I agree that it hasn't fired off on Zhelas for a long time but typically, he kills the creatures before it is useful. 50 ranks of Demonology lore will yield the best results from Cloak of Shadows retribution.

>>Torment*: I've probably used this more than most but the demon lore was not helpful
I never use this spell. I just don't like the mechanics of it. I used to use this spell exclusively when I hunted Fire Mages so I could avoid the death flares.

>>Minor Summoning: Nice RP tool
I would probably use this spell more often if I hunted with Baelfire more and if I decided to finish guild illusions.

>>Planar Shifting: Demon lore lets me avoid using gold rings in exchange for the occasional amusing death, another RP tool, i.e. I like the messaging
Love this spell. I use it all the time. Very Sorcerer oriented and releasing a demon is just plain sorcerer science.

I wish our lores would help us power 705.

Maelstrom needs some love. It take sooooo long to get going that by the time it is going full force, I have either killed the creatures, died from some stupid maneuver or the creatures have run off and I have had to chase them all over creation. ONLY to find that they will dodge the spell 100% of the time because they are higher than my spell caster. I wish I had one of the logs to post. During one of the last invasions of the landing. I removed all the arms and legs of one of the Knights. The knight was 110 plus in level. It was twitching on the ground. I cast focused maelstrom on the knight. It dodged 100% of all the spells damage.

Peace
Zhelas

---

(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

I would love to see lores better incorporated into our spells. There have been many good ideas brought up here and on the unofficials.

Personally, I would love to see 725 and 730 cater to both necro and demon lore. Allow 725 to create a helper non-combat undead and allow 730 to summon a combat demon.

Player of Malisai

<< Phase is as annoying as it is useful. The duration is too short for long hunts and it is too long for short hunts, but it is effective. The mana cost is low enough so I can't really complain, it is the mechanic of locking, unlocking, dropping, etc. that is tedious. For 4 points, it does its job. I just wish it was less tedious. I am running around with 3 locking containers to use it. >>

I caution against using "drop" to end Phase on your container, unless you are too injured to cast. I use a script to open my one phased container, and I always cast Phase, instead of using drop. Eventually, you'll end up actually dropping your container on the ground without realizing.

I will say, right off, the issue of a lore review for sorcery is probably very much needed. But the issue, to my mind, is three circles, three different lore types, not to mention the subtypes, with a rather small number of spells affected by a specific lore.

As to sorcery lore itself, I'd say with the release of Ensorcell it's about balanced. I pushed Necromancy Lore to 0.3x by level 70, since it was the first time Pain really became a hunting tactic I wanted. And Necromancy Lore has a rather trivial effect on Ensorcell, if you ask me. 701 is a joke. 708 usually is, too. 730 is basically a rescue or RP spell. 711 and 735 are good.

Demonology is, in my opinion, the best lore we have by a very very very large margin. It could be better but it's pretty good for me.

Phase: I have 5 phasing containers that constitute 100% encumbrance when unphased. I don't know exactly, but it's 100 pounds of stuff or more. I use it every time I hunt, and the phase often lasts for two hunts, depending on the speed of the hunt and if I turned in a bounty or not. My sorcerer is a halfling, carries about 50 scrolls, not to mention a full set of herbs, some alchemy ingredients, RP trinkets, a full set of lockpicks, etc. It's not strange for me to start phasing stuff willy nilly because I can't even pick up a scarab off the ground...
Cloak of Shadows: I can't recall either, but I use 130, and literally every time it fires I would have died. I know at least one happened on the krol ship that was at River's Rest, so it must have been within recent months. But Kaldonis doesn't really die hunting either. I think in the last 35 levels he died hunting like maybe once that I can recall. Anyway, getting to that 95% retribution is important. It's the 50% retribution that's crap: if it doesn't fire the first time you really ARE in trouble.
Balefire: I bolt hunt a lot, and this lore bonus is on par with most other bolt spells. I do tend to prefer Fire Spirit and Web, but anyway, the lore training with 713 is fine.
Torment: Yeah this spell is crap. Especially because it's garbage for so many bounties, and many of us tend to bounty hunt.
Minor Summoning: I'll grumble about Illusions. I'm still not quite at Demon.
Planar Shifting: I'm presently more than 1x sorcerous lore training to get this to 75 ranks for this purpose. Calling it a glorified gold ring is kind of a joke. Take the example my paladin hunts across Maelstrom Bay, doesn't have water walking, gets a couple boxes, and forgets to set his ring. Like I did a couple hours ago. If it were not for Symbol of Return he would have drowned. Because 740 can target rooms, as long as you have the chalk. And unless you want to carry around 2000 gold rings (rune book is 10 pages of 20 runes) I guess it's a lot better than that. Unless I'm mistaken, the "gold ring" function is the one at 75 ranks, but the lore training has a lot to do with the spell in general including with chalk.

If anything, the benefits of necromancy lore are the ones I see lacking.

But let's get on the band wagon about spiritual and elemental lores screwing sorcerers over, at least. That's some messed up stuff to need so many kinds of lores...

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

Truncated to the point of interest, and to support my statements, my present lore training:


Kaldonis (at level 87), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 90 20
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 163 63
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 114 28

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

>- is it possible to cast at item inside of other items (so you could "cast package in my backpack")?

Yes

>- if you are using non-locked containers on your person, do I correctly understand that the spell checks ONLY the weight of the container itself (the package), not the contents (the 80+ pounds of herbs inside the trunk)?

yes

>- does the "self-cast" note in the italicized text at the bottom of the spell description mean anything, such as a planned-but-not-yet-complete use as a defensive-type spell versus maneuvers? (Or is this in reference to lightening your effective containers?)

ref.:
>Also, the self-cast version of this spell is intended to provide protection against creature maneuver attacks. This portion of the spell, however, will be going live concurrently with the maneuver system overhaul.

no. I believe there was a GM post some time ago (years) that said that would never be implemented.

>>- is it possible to cast at item inside of other items (so you could "cast package in my backpack")?

>Yes

Caveat: It only goes one deep. So the locking satchel is phased weightless, as are its direct contents, whether the satchel is in your hand or in your backpack. But the items inside the pouch in the locked satchel are not made weightless.

And I suppose maybe I've pointed out demonology lore is good for halflings (phasing, balefire, etc). But it's funny because at some point I wanted to do necromancy lore for RP but said screw it demonology is way too mechanically good not to train in. Though, now demonology is a big part of Kaldonis's backstory so it all works out.

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

>> - is it possible to cast at item inside of other items (so you could "cast package in my backpack")?

>Yes, if your backpack is open. Where are you going with this?

Hunting partner hands you their cloak, you phase the three boxes in it, and hand it back to them. Yeah, those boxes are still phased and weightless...

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

Is there an issue training 1x in both lores, other than cost?

Magarven the Mad

<< Now, here's my use of balefire to kill a Triton Combatant: >>

Where was your demon?

Had to delete my first post because I forgot to send mana to the demon. For the record, I'm working with 90 ranks of demon lore and 100 ranks each in SMC/EMC. So, here's a look at balefire with a demon at hand:

Step 1

A petulant dwarven clerk says, "I will need to charge you 7000 silvers for a renewal. Ask me to renew again sometime in the next thirty seconds if you want to renew your permit."

A petulant dwarven clerk deftly grabs a nearby quill and quickly fills out a blank permit. He exchanges permits with you and scribbles a few notes on a sheet of parchment. The clerk glances up at you and says, "You do not need to have that permit on your person in order to have your demon in town. The permit is for you to keep track of when it expires. You will need it should you decide to renew it. Otherwise it will cost you the full price to get a new permit."
>put permit in my robe
You put a demon permit in your black warlock's robes.

Step 2

[Summoning Chamber]
The room shifts and heaves, making it difficult to stay standing on the slick floor. The walls, floor and ceiling contract and expand, stretching and then snapping back to form an irregular sphere. The surfaces are mottled and hot, looking and feeling more like raw flesh than anything else. Veins of glowing crimson liquid run down walls, under the surface, to enter a sucking wound in the center of the floor. The liquid moves to the sound of a beating heart and barely illuminates the cramped chamber You also see a latticed yellow crystal.
Obvious exits: none
>prep 725
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Minor Summoning...
Your spell is ready.
>cast at my runestone
You gesture at a mist-filled aster opal runestone.
You trace an arcane sigil over your runestone while incanting. Your runestone glows momentarily and you succeed in opening an interplanar rift from which you manage to pull a vaporous grey shadowling.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Step 3 (Demon needs mana badly!)

You face a vaporous grey shadowling, close your eyes and begin chanting. Suddenly, a small bolt of energy arcs between the two of you. You awaken, feeling slightly drained, but satisfied that 23 points were succesfully transferred to your grey shadowling.

>send 25 shad
You face a vaporous grey shadowling, close your eyes and begin chanting. Suddenly, a small bolt of energy arcs between the two of you. You awaken, feeling slightly drained, but satisfied that 21 points were succesfully transferred to your grey shadowling.

Step 4

A vaporous grey shadowling drifts into the area.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +410 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +7 = -9
A clean miss.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You are now in a guarded stance.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +41 = +123
... and hit for 8 points of damage!
The triton combatant's shield arm is seriously tanned.
A vaporous grey shadowling shudders slightly, but nothing further happens.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a triton combatant, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
The triton combatant's hand is encased in shimmering blue flames!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You are now in a guarded stance.
>
You feel at full magical power again.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +308 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +29 = +115
... and hit for 5 points of damage!
Plasma burst to stomach gives the triton combatant a bad case of indigestion.
A vaporous grey shadowling shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey shadowling loses 2 mana.)
... 10 points of damage!
Severe low back pain! The triton combatant gasps.
It is knocked to the ground!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a triton combatant, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Blistering strike to leg shrivels skin and causes excruciating pain.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You are now in a guarded stance.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +249 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +69 = +214
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Powerful burst to the triton combatant's back causes excruciating pain.
A vaporous grey shadowling shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey shadowling loses 2 mana.)
... 30 points of damage!
Chest expands and ribs snap, piercing lungs!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a triton combatant, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 5 points of damage!
Light burns to the triton combatant's head.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You are now in a guarded stance.
>
A triton combatant struggles to rise but fails in the attempt.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +40 = +210
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Wreath of energy burns away the triton combatant's hair and leaves skin blackened!
A vaporous grey shadowling shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey shadowling loses 2 mana.)
... 25 points of damage!
Decompression ruptures eye! Ocular fluid spurts!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a triton combatant, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 5 points of damage!
Flash burns to eye momentarily blind the triton combatant.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You are now in a guarded stance.
>stance offensive
>incant 713
>stance guarded
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a triton combatant!
AS: +382 vs DS: +128 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +4 = +270
... and hit for 71 points of damage!
Plasma scorches a hole in the triton combatant's shield arm!
A vaporous grey shadowling shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey shadowling loses 2 mana.)
... 60 points of damage!
Chest heaves, lungs rupture ruining an otherwise good day!
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
A triton combatant seems slightly different.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a triton combatant, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.

Necrotic energy from your thick rowan runestaff overflows into you!

You feel energized!

Sirens, dissemblers, magus and executioners are going to be good targets, in addition to recommended bandits. Not so much radicals, combatants and defenders (heavier armors) and elementals / greater elementals and sentries (significant DS).

I wouldn't try to trap the lore review discussion into comparisons of this spell, though. Lores should affect to some degree quite a few of the spells in the sorcerer's repertoire. And while I remain staunchly opposed to trying to solve this through training point costs, I also remain strongly in favor of exploiting the one hybrid profession's unique understanding of mixing spirit and element. Said differently, scaling thresholds for sorcerous lore should be reduced to allow for greater lore effect in sorcery.

Necromancy and demonology run the risk of being too specific, too. Interesting results should present for those sorcerers who manage to train both to highlight this hybrid benefit. For example, select spells could consider demonology and 1/4th necromancy ranks, while select other spells should consider necromancy and 1/4th demonology ranks.

Doug

It may have - I don't see a lot of public discussion from staff on this. The other 'hybrid' being the empath profession seems to be a closed book.

If it has gone the way of I.C.E. (in more ways than just RM ;), that is a sad day, and definitely would call for some pretty extreme measures for the profession -- measures much more radical than I would normally like to have considered.

Thalior and all great sorcerers since have sang that tune about spell circles. And they are absolutely correct. Since the great interglacial event (de-ICE-ing)a couple of ideas that I am particular to have been suggested. For example, add minor mental and allow sorcerers access to that list in addition. Or, my fav - redo the two minors lists to include spells from both minor and major elemental / spiritual lists for sorcery. Call it a 'hybrid elemental' and 'hybrid spirtual' list and only let sorcerers train in it.

But the problem still exists and requires a solution.

Doug

Don't shoot me, I've not ever really focused on sorcs although I have had a couple low level ones over the years. Why exactly is it a problem that they don't have 2 unique spell lists the way Wizards do? Yes, I understand wanting one, but they have access to both Minor Elemental and Minor Spiritual, which gives you access to some really impressive utility and defense, and combined with the Sorc list, you guys are possibly the most deadly casters in the game.

I ask this because we all know they aren't about to just invent a new list, so among the existing lists, if you had a choice what other list would you want?

>Removed an unnecessary post.

>Doug

Thanks, Doug. I pulled 3 of my own, too just now. Maybe you had some choice words for me, or maybe not.

Anyway, I just want to say, that I don't think the present logs demonstrate a reasonable methodology or tactical approach. Bolt spells don't operate the same way CS warding spells do. There are lots of ways that DS shifts, where as TD is generally constant. The log files reflect a CS hunting style to conclude that bolt hunting is somehow underwhelming.

I would like to provide some log files showing the way I bolt hunt, but I don't play every day so, please don't hold your breath.

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

>when you pointed out the bolting halfling premise

This refers to a post of mine that I pulled. The concept goes like this:

Kaldonis is the poster-child for Demonology Lore. Phasing is necessary, he's already good at bolts from his Dex, etc etc. But this is the absolutely best-case scenario.

I think I made some points and motions to the Paladin Base review, and suggested that...lore training is really good for those guys. Bring your dead body back to town at only 20 lore ranks?! Got to say, does seem way sweeter than 75 lore ranks, also by level 75 with "other" training...to mimic a gold ring.

Conclusion: Actually, I like demonology lore! It's pretty good. Still, we could do better, maybe. After all, as a poster child, it's like...not even enticing me even to 1x...

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

>I think Kardios helped remind us of the scaling effect, but for me the real goal in Silvean's log wasn't tactic, it was questioning demon lore benefit through a spell snapshot. At least, that's what I interpreted. And I kind of agree that the sorcerous lores could strongly benefit from some love.

In connection with the first post in this thread, that was my intent. I could have stance danced the combatant or used some of my AS increasing items to wreck the combatant more easily but nothing would be better than 717.

The defenders may be a better target for 713 but I'm not convinced the trouble would stack up against two shots of 711 and a 705.

Now, using 713 during bandits was mentioned and I could also see it being useful in an invasion scenario.

My original post at the start of this thread was meant to point out that I don't think any of the demonology benefits stack up against the necromancy lore benefits for 711 and 735. On the contrary, some have said they enjoy the benefits of phase and others like the bonus to 713. Just the same, I think everyone believes we need some kind of lore review and stronger benefits given the significant training costs.

>Don't shoot me, I've not ever really focused on sorcs although I have had a couple low level ones over the years. Why exactly is it a problem that they don't have 2 unique spell lists the way Wizards do?

It may not be a problem or perhaps it was a problem in 1993 that is no longer relevant.

>>The best possible thing that can happen to sorcery is that the TDs get globally dropped and the GMs implement and even tigher cap and MORE diminishing returns for CS by training 700s.

An exceptional counter-view. I like it. I wonder, though, if the diminishing returns portion is truly necessary? Consider - there will always be the occasional player for whom that CS number matters. Let it stay as it is without reducing the CS generation facet. Dead is dead.

But for those players interested in exploring all facets of sorcery, reducing the TD across the board would allow for these players to adjust their CS based over training in the circle downward, and pick up other skills. And, the greatest travesty (going back to the original profession days) is that sorcery was to be so feared because it understood how to defeat (lower TD) both spiritual and elemental protections. So it fits.

That one change could (if it freed up say 300 training points by cap? More?) re-enliven the profession by allowing for exploration.

Doug