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As an avid user of 1110, I have to say it is indeed awesome.
I wish there was a lore I could train to make the followup attack(s) hit undead, but :p
Rather than nerfing empaths though, I would like to see their(my) circle used as an example of how lores can be utilized to make spells awesome.
I agree 100% that other professions should not be nerfed to achieve balance, but rather the rest be uplifted. I've some qualms with certain core design features of Empaths/Clerics, but there really isn't a need to see them nerfed. Instead, Sorcerers and Wizards core design must too gain features which make them competitive at that particular level.
>>If you're implying 713 is going to be better than 1110
I'm not sure 'implying' is where my heart is. I agree that the empath 1110 implementation is incredible. That one spell has multiple facets that highlight the hybrid nature of the profession and emphasize benefits for strong training paths. It only has a couple of weaknesses that I'm aware of. I don't usually rank bolt spells in the game, but here I'll simply point out that Cone (and major shock / hurl bolder) don't have the weaknesses that Empathic Assault does, nor do they have its potential strength. For flash, I could see why 1110 is so intriguing. But then, warhorses don't win triple crowns, generally .
Rather than 'imply', I'd suggest you understand my words as 'hope'. I don't believe 713 will actually equal 1110 in all cases let alone eclipse it. However, based on what I've seen, I am convinced it is going to be a hallmark demonic sorcerer spell, and does have provisions built in for the ability to cycle extra damage based on strong training. And I intuitively recognize that based on what we know of the spell's design, the higher the end AS / DS resolution, the better potential resulting crits. There's one known factor in its disfavor, and one unknown factor that could be a tremendous blessing.
The known factor is the shenanigans we play with critical results. The crit randomization (personal opinion here) came about as a means to help move the Gemstone needle from attack speed to attrition. It wasn't the only method, but in my opinion it was a central one. I'm not Amery, Dan or Mark, nor any of a host of statistical geniuses who have graced us with their insight. But I can observe, and what I observe here is that even with consistent end rolls that assure a rank 8 (or higher) critical is a potential result, that result will actually be a rank 8 (or higher) critical a disappointing amount of the time. By the way, I blame crit randomization for a lot of the ills faced by sorcerers today -- it's one of my favorite warhorses. ;)
The unknown that may or may not be a benefit? The way the sorcerer suddenly has at her beck and call a wide variety of directly controllable critical results. Keep in mind that each demon contributes based on the nature of its own fell plane of existence (theory?). Now, for a successful resolution, the sorcerer gets 1 potential plasma critical (joining the short list of spells that draw on this strong crit table), plus (when properly trained) the ability to combine that plasma critical with a steam / disruption, or a disintegration / crushing critical! Oh yeah, and one other combination that escapes me at the moment.
We have little information to how successful this ploy is likely to be in actual practice -- sure, we can estimate based on data we have, but we haven't actually seen it used over time. It is my hope -- not implication, but strong desire -- that this is a hugely winning scenario for the sorcerer, and allows him to become as precise in his planning as he is in his results of devastation. Only time will tell.
Back to the main point of my question -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does? Well, now you can see a part of it. But like many, while very happy (and actually enjoying seeing the spell in action), I'm not immune to the discussion of AS / DS resolution remaining a problem. I don't agree as vehemently as some of the long term sorcerers -- but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that one statement is true: The better the resolution, the better the potential critical.
Plus -- of course -- that bolt is really a ball -- so, perhaps, in some cases, damage and plasma for everyone! Or most everyone. Or some. Well, you get the picture.
Now, that question -- differentiation based off of AS -- seems to lose some of its importance. No matter what is done with the AS discussion (how I wish Amery were here to collaborate on this), if the needle were moved from +38 to +58 as an example, what would be the net impact to the potential crit range and actual crit range. The answers are, in order "perhaps some depending", and "not jack that we could measure". Or, said differently, no significant differentiation in increasing AS from a crit perspective.
So, lets use that demon just a bit more -- after all, what are they but slaves to the sorcerous will? How about, if the demon gave up an additional mana point (that the sorcerer could replace) to move the floor of the potential crit range of its portion of the attack up, say one, or two ranks after randomization? Again, wishing Dan would drop by, I am of the opinion that this would result in more frequent fatal first time hits. How could it not, intuitively? Perhaps it would even be too much to do two ranks -- I don't know. We (meaning someone other than me) would need to run the numbers.
But -- what a differentiator! A crit-enhancement in a spell that gives a steady / known state result. And only in the hands of the sorcerer profession! And, at extremes, moving the one-shot one-kill needle back towards or nudging beyond 50%. Wow! Now that's a dream. And it didn't take us additional AS to get there (even though additional AS didn't hurt us any).
By the way, anyone care to assess what the likely potential affect of GoS is, versus Voln in each of these scenarios? :)
Anyway, that's what I'm trying to get at with my question. I'm hoping the spell will be a blast (which is a given, but be amazingly fun, too). I'm hoping that it helps restore the luster of this profession somewhat. And I'm not afraid to go to extremes to get it. I won't simply be bound by AS / DS system discussions (especially in increments of 1 or 5) for what I perceive could be the greatness of a totally new spell type (controllable varied crit resolution? You're kidding me!)
>>I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell.
You have an historical propensity for prejudging without true knowledge in this fashion. Given the 'short post' nature of most responses, I guess I could understand why in new cases. But I have a suggestion -- if you'd care to hear it.
Doug
I'm not sure 'implying' is where my heart is. I agree that the empath 1110 implementation is incredible. That one spell has multiple facets that highlight the hybrid nature of the profession and emphasize benefits for strong training paths. It only has a couple of weaknesses that I'm aware of. I don't usually rank bolt spells in the game, but here I'll simply point out that Cone (and major shock / hurl bolder) don't have the weaknesses that Empathic Assault does, nor do they have its potential strength. For flash, I could see why 1110 is so intriguing. But then, warhorses don't win triple crowns, generally .
Rather than 'imply', I'd suggest you understand my words as 'hope'. I don't believe 713 will actually equal 1110 in all cases let alone eclipse it. However, based on what I've seen, I am convinced it is going to be a hallmark demonic sorcerer spell, and does have provisions built in for the ability to cycle extra damage based on strong training. And I intuitively recognize that based on what we know of the spell's design, the higher the end AS / DS resolution, the better potential resulting crits. There's one known factor in its disfavor, and one unknown factor that could be a tremendous blessing.
The known factor is the shenanigans we play with critical results. The crit randomization (personal opinion here) came about as a means to help move the Gemstone needle from attack speed to attrition. It wasn't the only method, but in my opinion it was a central one. I'm not Amery, Dan or Mark, nor any of a host of statistical geniuses who have graced us with their insight. But I can observe, and what I observe here is that even with consistent end rolls that assure a rank 8 (or higher) critical is a potential result, that result will actually be a rank 8 (or higher) critical a disappointing amount of the time. By the way, I blame crit randomization for a lot of the ills faced by sorcerers today -- it's one of my favorite warhorses. ;)
The unknown that may or may not be a benefit? The way the sorcerer suddenly has at her beck and call a wide variety of directly controllable critical results. Keep in mind that each demon contributes based on the nature of its own fell plane of existence (theory?). Now, for a successful resolution, the sorcerer gets 1 potential plasma critical (joining the short list of spells that draw on this strong crit table), plus (when properly trained) the ability to combine that plasma critical with a steam / disruption, or a disintegration / crushing critical! Oh yeah, and one other combination that escapes me at the moment.
We have little information to how successful this ploy is likely to be in actual practice -- sure, we can estimate based on data we have, but we haven't actually seen it used over time. It is my hope -- not implication, but strong desire -- that this is a hugely winning scenario for the sorcerer, and allows him to become as precise in his planning as he is in his results of devastation. Only time will tell.
Back to the main point of my question -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does? Well, now you can see a part of it. But like many, while very happy (and actually enjoying seeing the spell in action), I'm not immune to the discussion of AS / DS resolution remaining a problem. I don't agree as vehemently as some of the long term sorcerers -- but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that one statement is true: The better the resolution, the better the potential critical.
Plus -- of course -- that bolt is really a ball -- so, perhaps, in some cases, damage and plasma for everyone! Or most everyone. Or some. Well, you get the picture.
Now, that question -- differentiation based off of AS -- seems to lose some of its importance. No matter what is done with the AS discussion (how I wish Amery were here to collaborate on this), if the needle were moved from +38 to +58 as an example, what would be the net impact to the potential crit range and actual crit range. The answers are, in order "perhaps some depending", and "not jack that we could measure". Or, said differently, no significant differentiation in increasing AS from a crit perspective.
So, lets use that demon just a bit more -- after all, what are they but slaves to the sorcerous will? How about, if the demon gave up an additional mana point (that the sorcerer could replace) to move the floor of the potential crit range of its portion of the attack up, say one, or two ranks after randomization? Again, wishing Dan would drop by, I am of the opinion that this would result in more frequent fatal first time hits. How could it not, intuitively? Perhaps it would even be too much to do two ranks -- I don't know. We (meaning someone other than me) would need to run the numbers.
But -- what a differentiator! A crit-enhancement in a spell that gives a steady / known state result. And only in the hands of the sorcerer profession! And, at extremes, moving the one-shot one-kill needle back towards or nudging beyond 50%. Wow! Now that's a dream. And it didn't take us additional AS to get there (even though additional AS didn't hurt us any).
By the way, anyone care to assess what the likely potential affect of GoS is, versus Voln in each of these scenarios? :)
Anyway, that's what I'm trying to get at with my question. I'm hoping the spell will be a blast (which is a given, but be amazingly fun, too). I'm hoping that it helps restore the luster of this profession somewhat. And I'm not afraid to go to extremes to get it. I won't simply be bound by AS / DS system discussions (especially in increments of 1 or 5) for what I perceive could be the greatness of a totally new spell type (controllable varied crit resolution? You're kidding me!)
>>I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell.
You have an historical propensity for prejudging without true knowledge in this fashion. Given the 'short post' nature of most responses, I guess I could understand why in new cases. But I have a suggestion -- if you'd care to hear it.
Doug
"Rather than 'imply', I'd suggest you understand my words as 'hope'. I don't believe 713 will actually equal 1110 in all cases let alone eclipse it."
Well, I sure HOPE that 713 eclipses 1110 to the extent that they're both spells from the caster's native spell circle and 713 costs three more mana to cast. In my mind, higher mana cost should equal more power, though I know that's not always the case. However, like you, I sure don't think that it will eclipse 1110, and I think the reason we'll be given for that failure is because of the higher DF, ie, "balance."
Well, I sure HOPE that 713 eclipses 1110 to the extent that they're both spells from the caster's native spell circle and 713 costs three more mana to cast. In my mind, higher mana cost should equal more power, though I know that's not always the case. However, like you, I sure don't think that it will eclipse 1110, and I think the reason we'll be given for that failure is because of the higher DF, ie, "balance."
>You have an historical propensity for prejudging without true knowledge in this fashion. Given the 'short post' nature of most responses, I guess I could understand why in new cases. But I have a suggestion -- if you'd care to hear it.
Thank you, I do like to get right to the point. My post again:
>> If you're implying 713 is going to be better than 1110
>>I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell.
All is qualified, no one is prejudging.
Now doug, I know what you're trying to say, you're saying, in a nutshell (and watch how short I make this) more damage (higher df, splashes, demon damage, weighting, etc) can outweigh more AS. This is why some people will use a lesser enchant claidhmore. Of course, 1110, again, is the king of extra damage. A well trained empath can get 300 extra damage AFTER the initial hit.
However... one point you might miss, is that 713 is not the only application for bolt AS by a sorcerer. You're saying that it might not be a big deal to have a slightly lower AS if the spell is more powerful, but... what if the spell is the exact same? As in fire spirit or web bolt? What then?
Thank you, I do like to get right to the point. My post again:
>> If you're implying 713 is going to be better than 1110
>>I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell.
All is qualified, no one is prejudging.
Now doug, I know what you're trying to say, you're saying, in a nutshell (and watch how short I make this) more damage (higher df, splashes, demon damage, weighting, etc) can outweigh more AS. This is why some people will use a lesser enchant claidhmore. Of course, 1110, again, is the king of extra damage. A well trained empath can get 300 extra damage AFTER the initial hit.
However... one point you might miss, is that 713 is not the only application for bolt AS by a sorcerer. You're saying that it might not be a big deal to have a slightly lower AS if the spell is more powerful, but... what if the spell is the exact same? As in fire spirit or web bolt? What then?
>>All is qualified, no one is prejudging.
Ahh, the mighty conditional. I'm glad to see its use. You'll note most responses to your conditional usage do not detect this subtlety. What's that saying?
>>Now doug, I know what you're trying to say, you're saying, in a nutshell (and watch how short I make this) more damage (higher df, splashes, demon damage, weighting, etc) can outweigh more AS.
>>However... one point you might miss, is that 713 is not the only application for bolt AS by a sorcerer. You're saying that it might not be a big deal to have a slightly lower AS if the spell is more powerful, but... what if the spell is the exact same? As in fire spirit or web bolt? What then?
Er. No. Close, but not quite. Which means you don't know, despite your assurance that you do, V. Fetching. Now, watch how long I make this.
We already know it is different and to what degree (reread the previous post, details are there). We know it won't be the same as fire spirit or web bolt. IF we believe it is the same, we could have a valid argument.
Now, since the conditional is proven false in this case, we know the resultant outcome of continuing to pursue the conditional is. . . ?
Doug, fan of Ron White
Ahh, the mighty conditional. I'm glad to see its use. You'll note most responses to your conditional usage do not detect this subtlety. What's that saying?
>>Now doug, I know what you're trying to say, you're saying, in a nutshell (and watch how short I make this) more damage (higher df, splashes, demon damage, weighting, etc) can outweigh more AS.
>>However... one point you might miss, is that 713 is not the only application for bolt AS by a sorcerer. You're saying that it might not be a big deal to have a slightly lower AS if the spell is more powerful, but... what if the spell is the exact same? As in fire spirit or web bolt? What then?
Er. No. Close, but not quite. Which means you don't know, despite your assurance that you do, V. Fetching. Now, watch how long I make this.
We already know it is different and to what degree (reread the previous post, details are there). We know it won't be the same as fire spirit or web bolt. IF we believe it is the same, we could have a valid argument.
Now, since the conditional is proven false in this case, we know the resultant outcome of continuing to pursue the conditional is. . . ?
Doug, fan of Ron White
Just had a thought. If the Sorcerer AS booster remains as is...
How about uncapping the Bolt AS benefit only for 425?
Allow the benefit to cap at 100 ranks of Minor Elemental instead of 75, adding +12 Bolt AS to both Sorcerers and, yes, Wizards.
I still feel like the elemental half of the pure classes should be substantially better bolters than the spiritual half. Period. +12 is just about the right amount to achieve the proper buffer zone.
-Sea Wizard
>A green-eyed white cat belches, and a bolt of blue flame explodes into the air.
>Rimalon points at Kilthal. A puff of silver smoke envelops Kilthal. When the smoke clears, a frog is squatting in his place.
How about uncapping the Bolt AS benefit only for 425?
Allow the benefit to cap at 100 ranks of Minor Elemental instead of 75, adding +12 Bolt AS to both Sorcerers and, yes, Wizards.
I still feel like the elemental half of the pure classes should be substantially better bolters than the spiritual half. Period. +12 is just about the right amount to achieve the proper buffer zone.
-Sea Wizard
>A green-eyed white cat belches, and a bolt of blue flame explodes into the air.
>Rimalon points at Kilthal. A puff of silver smoke envelops Kilthal. When the smoke clears, a frog is squatting in his place.
>>adding +12 Bolt AS
Based on what I'm understanding, this is no good, Rims. Even adding 20 isn't good enough from what I've understood.
>>I still feel like the elemental half of the pure classes should be substantially better bolters than the spiritual half.
I see this a lot. My beliefs (developed in the days when BAR and EAR had meaning) are that this is a suspect simplification.
Wizards are the undisputed masters of elemental magic. This doesn't translate (to me) as being able to hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the wizard has mastered turning elements to her use in a number of versatile ways.
Clerics are the undisputed masters of spiritual magic, particularly with a view towards undead. Again, it doesn't mean the cleric can hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the cleric has mastered begging powers for unique capabilities (heh).
Sorcerers are the undisputed masters of the hybrid sphere intersected by elemental and spiritual magics. It doesn't mean the sorcerer can hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the sorcerer has mastered warping devious spirits to meet his demands, while retaining the ability to sew destruction by perverting the elements, both internal to a target and locally available.
I'm not touching empaths, because their source has become . . . convoluted. However, we can easily agree (I hope) that empaths have mastered the anatomy of the races and can cure or disrupt that anatomy in a number of ways.
A lot of time and change has occurred since those days, and I recognize that despite the current profession definitions on the core website today, many hold this belief. I would just suggest looking beyond the 'better bolter' discussion as a supporting element for this 'race to the top'.
For my part, were I involved in design I'd probably be recommending that we do away with any variance in bolt AS resolution capabilities in the variables of skill and magic (but keep stat bonus and enhancive), and just be done with this. There are far more important things to be done, in my view.
Doug
Based on what I'm understanding, this is no good, Rims. Even adding 20 isn't good enough from what I've understood.
>>I still feel like the elemental half of the pure classes should be substantially better bolters than the spiritual half.
I see this a lot. My beliefs (developed in the days when BAR and EAR had meaning) are that this is a suspect simplification.
Wizards are the undisputed masters of elemental magic. This doesn't translate (to me) as being able to hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the wizard has mastered turning elements to her use in a number of versatile ways.
Clerics are the undisputed masters of spiritual magic, particularly with a view towards undead. Again, it doesn't mean the cleric can hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the cleric has mastered begging powers for unique capabilities (heh).
Sorcerers are the undisputed masters of the hybrid sphere intersected by elemental and spiritual magics. It doesn't mean the sorcerer can hurl an elemental bolt harder than anyone else. It means the sorcerer has mastered warping devious spirits to meet his demands, while retaining the ability to sew destruction by perverting the elements, both internal to a target and locally available.
I'm not touching empaths, because their source has become . . . convoluted. However, we can easily agree (I hope) that empaths have mastered the anatomy of the races and can cure or disrupt that anatomy in a number of ways.
A lot of time and change has occurred since those days, and I recognize that despite the current profession definitions on the core website today, many hold this belief. I would just suggest looking beyond the 'better bolter' discussion as a supporting element for this 'race to the top'.
For my part, were I involved in design I'd probably be recommending that we do away with any variance in bolt AS resolution capabilities in the variables of skill and magic (but keep stat bonus and enhancive), and just be done with this. There are far more important things to be done, in my view.
Doug
>We already know it is different and to what degree (reread the previous post, details are there). We know it won't be the same as fire spirit or web bolt. IF we believe it is the same, we could have a valid argument.
I think you misunderstood me.
When I said "What if the spell is the same" I did not mean "what if balefire is the same as fire spirit"
I meant "What if a sorcerer casts fire spirit, and an empath and cleric also cast fire spirit. What about the AS difference then?"
I realize, that this thread has "Balefire" in the title, but we're talking about Sorcerer bolt AS in general now. So that AS is for 111, 118, any wand usage. You've been arguing that balefire might be good enough that AS difference is moot, I'm saying "What about other spells?"
Understand?
A conversation about sorcerer bolt AS buffs really has no need for ANY discussion of balefire damage or crit power, mana cost, splashes, anything. It doesn't even belong. If it helps, pretend sorcerers were gaining a bolt AS buff spell, and balefire did not exist. We only had 111 and 118. It isn't as if I'm going to stop casting web bolt when I get balefire you know?
I think you misunderstood me.
When I said "What if the spell is the same" I did not mean "what if balefire is the same as fire spirit"
I meant "What if a sorcerer casts fire spirit, and an empath and cleric also cast fire spirit. What about the AS difference then?"
I realize, that this thread has "Balefire" in the title, but we're talking about Sorcerer bolt AS in general now. So that AS is for 111, 118, any wand usage. You've been arguing that balefire might be good enough that AS difference is moot, I'm saying "What about other spells?"
Understand?
A conversation about sorcerer bolt AS buffs really has no need for ANY discussion of balefire damage or crit power, mana cost, splashes, anything. It doesn't even belong. If it helps, pretend sorcerers were gaining a bolt AS buff spell, and balefire did not exist. We only had 111 and 118. It isn't as if I'm going to stop casting web bolt when I get balefire you know?
>is superheated plasma not supposed to affect trolls the way fire does? just curious. fire is just one form of heat. if trolls are flammable they should respond to any "fire"
>~Moredin
Unfortunately the answer is yes, plasma is not the same as fire to trolls. Clerics don't get any benefit from their plasma flares on trolls either.
>~Moredin
Unfortunately the answer is yes, plasma is not the same as fire to trolls. Clerics don't get any benefit from their plasma flares on trolls either.
Should Balefire ignite webs? At first, I thought it would be nice to be able to web a critter and then cast Balefire on it and get an extra flare when the web ignites. But now I think I would prefer that it not ignite the web. A webbed critter has a low DS, and I'd like to keep it webbed for a second or third cast of Balefire. If I want to ignite the web, I can cast 111.
What do you think? Should plasma ignite webs?
What do you think? Should plasma ignite webs?
I was wondering if I could get a Balefire update. If not from GMs, then maybe from a player who can do a quick summary. I read the saved post on Krakiipedia (link below), but haven't browsed through all of the forums archives.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Balefire_(saved_post)
How are things going in the test server? Any changes/tweaks? ETA yet?
My thought: it seems that the release of Balefire is going to be bundled with the updates to curse. However, it also seems that the new curse has a lot of potential for delays as "fun new" curses are created, or balance work is done on one spell x10 variants, or issues crop up with the fact that it uses a new verb.
So... would anyone miss Nightmare if we got Balefire early in slot 713 and had to wait for the curse update to get Nightmare back? Is that in the plans?
Thanks!
Jason and Taqra
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Balefire_(saved_post)
How are things going in the test server? Any changes/tweaks? ETA yet?
My thought: it seems that the release of Balefire is going to be bundled with the updates to curse. However, it also seems that the new curse has a lot of potential for delays as "fun new" curses are created, or balance work is done on one spell x10 variants, or issues crop up with the fact that it uses a new verb.
So... would anyone miss Nightmare if we got Balefire early in slot 713 and had to wait for the curse update to get Nightmare back? Is that in the plans?
Thanks!
Jason and Taqra
I guess it'll need some extraplanar ingredients
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
| a colorful ki-lin horn wand |
| Add wand oil |
| Add 1 swirling aetherstone |
| Add 1 ground ki-lin horn |
| Boil |
| Add 3 Verlok feathers |
| Simmer |
| Add 2 crystal core |
| Infuse |
| Chant Balefire (713) |
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
