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>>... but really of all the spells that need looking at, quake is way down on my list.
What's at the top? 740 because of the recent premium benefit?
GameMaster Oscuro
> Top of the list would probably be seperated into minor additions to existing and entirely new spell/design.
> A bit of improvement to 740 and lore bonuses to 702/705.
> Disase would probably be the entire other category. Not sure I've casted it even on accident in the last few years.
I agree with this sentiment. I would love to see more demon/necro lore benefits on current spells, especially in the damage/crit areas. I honestly don't understand how 702 and 705 never received lore benefits with the implementation of lores, seeing as how every other magical professions' main hunting spells have lore benefits. Let me emphasize a desire for sorcerous lores for these spells, rather than spirit summoning or one of the elementals.
And yes, group improvement to 740/cheaper chalk I think is called for.
also: What if necro lore made the animate more powerful/less stupid/faster?
A quick fix for disease would be to give it a TD pushdown benefit like 703.
Going back to quake, on the in the official spell description it says: This spell is more likely to cause victims to fall down than the Wizard spell, Tremors.
Is this actually true?
~Allereli
> A bit of improvement to 740 and lore bonuses to 702/705.
> Disase would probably be the entire other category. Not sure I've casted it even on accident in the last few years.
I agree with this sentiment. I would love to see more demon/necro lore benefits on current spells, especially in the damage/crit areas. I honestly don't understand how 702 and 705 never received lore benefits with the implementation of lores, seeing as how every other magical professions' main hunting spells have lore benefits. Let me emphasize a desire for sorcerous lores for these spells, rather than spirit summoning or one of the elementals.
And yes, group improvement to 740/cheaper chalk I think is called for.
also: What if necro lore made the animate more powerful/less stupid/faster?
A quick fix for disease would be to give it a TD pushdown benefit like 703.
Going back to quake, on the in the official spell description it says: This spell is more likely to cause victims to fall down than the Wizard spell, Tremors.
Is this actually true?
~Allereli
>What's at the top? 740 because of the recent premium benefit?
My list?
Yes, 740, because it is topical and recent.
702 - lack of lore implementation
705 - lack of lore implementation
719 - poor lore implementation, sorry spell, the copies are better than the original, etc - chain reaction dc please http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/07/20/chain-reaction-dc/ - or my more recent post in this folder on the subject.
715 - finish this, there were supposed to be curse combos and things... but they strath disappeared.
725 - big project: add a demon teach ability, add greater demons, (requiring lore > 200), and sorcerers would just love to get rid of all the justice system BS. It is a big annoyance that serves no purpose but to put sorcerers in a box by themselves. A ranger can have a ferocious lion that actually has the capability to attack follow it into town, but we can't? We have to learn an annoying guild skill or buy a permit once a month etc etc etc.
730 - fix bugs. Allow animates to be reanimated. Micromanagement commands to make them not be so stupid. (tell animate attack magic/physical/special tell animate magic 414, etc). I also like self animation as a high end possibility.
735 - plan? I like Evarin's old "Harbinger" idea which allows you to mass cast any warding spell.
750 - plan? I like deadpool http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2010/03/01/750-deadpool/ - sorta anyways, just one idea. But I don't want to see greater demon summoning, we don't need to use a spell slot for that. We learned that lessen when we had lesser pain, and greater pain, and lesser limb breaking, and greater limb disruption. We can do greater demon summoning in 725 as a high lore requirement.
710 - messaging is out of date, needs a lore implementation. I like the idea of the SHIFT verb to command a tempest to switch targets in the focused form.
714 - Get rid of the AG runestone. Seriously. It wasn't included in the original release, and was later added because someone thought we didn't have enough components. This was when it was thought every other profession would be getting componentry, they didn't, so trash it. Add an EXP gain when infusing, like foraging, and loresinging, and imbedding, and enchanting. Why not? Not much, but something. Cap it like loresinging is capped. Allow more control over unlocking, specifying which spell we're trying to unlock when using a runestone using TAP (like how my book works). Change dikar'fyn runestone to unlock any spell up to level 50 instead of level 25, because honestly, right now, it is only useful for unlocking 1725 (which is not implemented) because no other level 25 spells exist on new fresh scrolls. Moving it up to 50 would let it be used on 1750. Considering even I lock 1720 sometimes, even with the special merchant release dikar'fyn rune the chance of successfully infusing 1750 would have to be slim, why not let us try?
716 - do something
703 - fix it to prevent prepping, not just casting. This is how forget worked, and we got shafted when it was changed in what was supposed to be a change that didn't nerf us at all. The effective time on the spell was cut by a third, its a big deal.
Spells I think are generally fine
701
704
707 - it isn't that useful, but neither is it horrible
708 - maybe multiple limbs exploding on very high end rolls, just a flavor change. http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2007/12/03/a-bloody-troll-torso-rolls-down/
709 - see 707
711
712
713 - except balefire should hit antimagic things because it is demonic. yes please. Making us, the pure with the least viable physical attack path (ie, clerics, empaths, wizards can all make functional weapon users and hunt like semis easier than sorcerers can), the only pure with a spell able to hit antimagic vvrael, constructs, etc. Giving us this one thing to be special in, to make up for all the stuff we're last place in. That'd be a cool thing to do. Maybe 718 too... limit it to when you have a demon with you if you like.
717
718
720 - except how flying critters like griffins are immune to open implosions... as if powered flight is possible in a vacuum. Flying critters should have a huge vulnerability to this, not the other way around- maybe add a disarming ability where stuff is ripped from critter hands as they try to avoid flying into the void. This is just sprinkles on top though.
For more on all of these things, please see:
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2010/03/25/2010-sorcerer-review/
So ya, quake doesn't even make the list of things to be worked on for me. I don't think every spell needs to be super duper useful always, it is okay to have niche ones, or ones less powerful or important. Quake is one of those for me. I'd rather see everything done on the first list, before anything on the second list is done (unless its like a really easy change of course).
>>I honestly don't understand how 702 and 705 never received lore benefits with the implementation of lores, seeing as how every other magical professions' main hunting spells have lore benefits.
I would echo this sentiment.
Empaths:
Harm gets stronger with Manipulation lore
Boneshatter gets insta-death increase with Manip lore
Empathic Assault, Manipulation, Telepathy, Transformation
Wither gets stronger with Manip lore (Thats four for one on Manip lore! All Empath base attack spells!)
Wizards:
6 out of 7 Wizard base bolts recieve lore bonus, with incoming lore review (Minor Acid is sole exception)
Boil Earth and Sandstorm also recieve lore bonus
Tonis Bolt, air lore
Hurl Boulder, earth lore
Etc, etc
Clerics
Smite/Bane, Religion Lore
Holy Bolt, Religion Lore
Fervent Reproach, Religion AND Blessings
Divine Fury, Religion
Divine Wrath, Religion and Summoning (Thats five for one!)
All direct damage attack spells except a handful of ATTUNE base element spells like Weapon Fire or Elemental Strike recieve a lore bonus which will improve its ability to deal damage. EVERY Cleric and Empath direct attack spell in their primary circle has a lore benefit from one lore (Manipulation or Religion), and several have ADDITIONAL Lore benefits.
Wizards have like, 18 attack spells or so between MjE and Wizard base, and except for the ATTUNE based spells, the ONLY attack spell they have without a lore bonus is Minor Acid.
For us, Mana Disruption and Disintegrate represent the entire damage dealing spectrum from level 2-9. Energy Maelstrom does not get lore benefits either, so make that up to level 10. Pain and Blood Burst get necro bonuses, though Blood Burst does not deal extra damage. That means that for extra damage dealing, it is not until we reach Pain, a level 11 spell, that we can get improved damage dealing through Lore. And Pain is a great spell, don't get me wrong, but its only WITH the lore that it can easily have the ability to 3 shot enemies . . . it can never crit, but we are talking 33 mana minimum to kill any enemy WITH lore. Then there is Balefire, which actually gets something . . . IF you are using a Demon, but doesn't actually benefit from the lore, lore only lets you summon demons more effectively. Disease is a joke, Evil Eye gets nothing, and finally we reach Torment, a spell which actually recieves a blatant lore bonus . . . increased damage, or spell preparation with Demonology lore. So there we go. Implosion, is, of course, what it is.
So our Lore damage bonuses are:
Pain, increased damage with Necromancy. Solid, it doesn't need to change.
Torment, does more damage/allows a prepped spell without penalty with Demonology. *thumbs up*
Disease . . . this spell isn't even worth using, but it technically has a Necromancy benefit.
Everything else either recieves non-damage boosting bonuses, or recieves nothing at all.
Okay . . . DC gets Elemental Lore. I forgot. There is that.
Either way, this is a pretty serious unbalance. Especially since our low level spells lack crit potential to a serious degree (not until Balefire that we start to see it.)
I would echo this sentiment.
Empaths:
Harm gets stronger with Manipulation lore
Boneshatter gets insta-death increase with Manip lore
Empathic Assault, Manipulation, Telepathy, Transformation
Wither gets stronger with Manip lore (Thats four for one on Manip lore! All Empath base attack spells!)
Wizards:
6 out of 7 Wizard base bolts recieve lore bonus, with incoming lore review (Minor Acid is sole exception)
Boil Earth and Sandstorm also recieve lore bonus
Tonis Bolt, air lore
Hurl Boulder, earth lore
Etc, etc
Clerics
Smite/Bane, Religion Lore
Holy Bolt, Religion Lore
Fervent Reproach, Religion AND Blessings
Divine Fury, Religion
Divine Wrath, Religion and Summoning (Thats five for one!)
All direct damage attack spells except a handful of ATTUNE base element spells like Weapon Fire or Elemental Strike recieve a lore bonus which will improve its ability to deal damage. EVERY Cleric and Empath direct attack spell in their primary circle has a lore benefit from one lore (Manipulation or Religion), and several have ADDITIONAL Lore benefits.
Wizards have like, 18 attack spells or so between MjE and Wizard base, and except for the ATTUNE based spells, the ONLY attack spell they have without a lore bonus is Minor Acid.
For us, Mana Disruption and Disintegrate represent the entire damage dealing spectrum from level 2-9. Energy Maelstrom does not get lore benefits either, so make that up to level 10. Pain and Blood Burst get necro bonuses, though Blood Burst does not deal extra damage. That means that for extra damage dealing, it is not until we reach Pain, a level 11 spell, that we can get improved damage dealing through Lore. And Pain is a great spell, don't get me wrong, but its only WITH the lore that it can easily have the ability to 3 shot enemies . . . it can never crit, but we are talking 33 mana minimum to kill any enemy WITH lore. Then there is Balefire, which actually gets something . . . IF you are using a Demon, but doesn't actually benefit from the lore, lore only lets you summon demons more effectively. Disease is a joke, Evil Eye gets nothing, and finally we reach Torment, a spell which actually recieves a blatant lore bonus . . . increased damage, or spell preparation with Demonology lore. So there we go. Implosion, is, of course, what it is.
So our Lore damage bonuses are:
Pain, increased damage with Necromancy. Solid, it doesn't need to change.
Torment, does more damage/allows a prepped spell without penalty with Demonology. *thumbs up*
Disease . . . this spell isn't even worth using, but it technically has a Necromancy benefit.
Everything else either recieves non-damage boosting bonuses, or recieves nothing at all.
Okay . . . DC gets Elemental Lore. I forgot. There is that.
Either way, this is a pretty serious unbalance. Especially since our low level spells lack crit potential to a serious degree (not until Balefire that we start to see it.)
>>I just want to correct you that balefire does receive a direct lore benefit from demonlogy, like all other bolt/ball spells, using the same formula. Increases splashes, increased DF for your prime target. Regardless if you have a demon present or not.
Gah, I knew that. I read it a dozen times, and I knew it well. For some reason, I forgot at that moment. Thanks for the reminder.
Gah, I knew that. I read it a dozen times, and I knew it well. For some reason, I forgot at that moment. Thanks for the reminder.
>What's at the top? 740 because of the recent premium benefit?
Actually, Premium benifit and Voln review.
I'll add my voice to the cast of dozens/hundreds about the current injustice that is 740. It's an amazing spell that is now less effective and arguably more costly, than Mist Harbor membership or Voln Mastery. The recent changes to other systems fly directly in the face of the reasons we were given for half of the places 740 can't take sorcerers or their groups. If Voln symbols can bypass level, skill and Realm checks without the PC ever having been to the location before, surely a sorcerer who has made the trek to make the place Known to him/herself should be able to.
I love the changes to Voln...use them daily, and feel they are long overdue...but the GMs must see that they represent issues with other spells. I'd argue 225 (with lore concideration) should also be looked at for the same reasons.
-Jurp
Actually, Premium benifit and Voln review.
I'll add my voice to the cast of dozens/hundreds about the current injustice that is 740. It's an amazing spell that is now less effective and arguably more costly, than Mist Harbor membership or Voln Mastery. The recent changes to other systems fly directly in the face of the reasons we were given for half of the places 740 can't take sorcerers or their groups. If Voln symbols can bypass level, skill and Realm checks without the PC ever having been to the location before, surely a sorcerer who has made the trek to make the place Known to him/herself should be able to.
I love the changes to Voln...use them daily, and feel they are long overdue...but the GMs must see that they represent issues with other spells. I'd argue 225 (with lore concideration) should also be looked at for the same reasons.
-Jurp
Forgive me from running against the grain but...I don't want to see a lore review in sorcery. Currently my spells are effective and I would be concerned that creating a lore requirement could possibly reduce how effective 702 and 705 are for me unless I want to spend points on lore. There are certain spells with necro/demon lore that make sense, which is why I have the lore that I already have, I don't want to be at a handicap when using those spells should they require more than the lore I already have (unless a lore review only increases effectiveness without changing their current effectiveness...)
Just for bandwagon's sake, I generally agree with all of what Virilneus wrote, with strong, STRONG emphasis on the lore aspects of 702 and 705. I would particularly like a bolt version of 705 unlocked with enough lore, but heck, just make the damage and crits improve with lore, and that would be great. I honestly don't see why that is not a priority.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
| Then there is Balefire, which actually gets something . . . IF you are using a Demon, but doesn't actually benefit from the lore, lore only lets you summon demons more effectively. |
Just to correct something, balefire does get better with lore. Balefire, as a spell, was done almost completely right, and is quite a nice spell. The only thing I would change about balefire is in line with V's suggestion (and others have suggested this as well) to give balefire the ability to hit magic resistant things, such as constructs, etc...
From the KP page( http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/713 ):
Training in Sorcerous Lore, Demonology increases the spell's damage factors (DF). This increase applies to the initial strike only.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>Forgive me from running against the grain but...I don't want to see a lore review in sorcery. Currently my spells are effective and I would be concerned that creating a lore requirement could possibly reduce how effective 702 and 705 are for me unless I want to spend points on lore. There are certain spells with necro/demon lore that make sense, which is why I have the lore that I already have, I don't want to be at a handicap when using those spells should they require more than the lore I already have (unless a lore review only increases effectiveness without changing their current effectiveness...)
It wouldn't have to be lore, it could also be mana controls, the point being, they need more power. I don't think you'd have to worry rolfard about a downtweak to either. Compare 705 to 1106. Our spells make sense for someone level 10, but by the time you get to 100 all the other attack spells have been buffed to be much better and ours still plink. There is no where to go but up.
>Disease . . . this spell isn't even worth using, but it technically has a Necromancy benefit.
Not that it really matters since the spell is never used anyway, but lore implementation never happened for 716. With the ridiculous process they seem to have to go through to make changes to the website around here, someone figured they'd make it easy on themselves and update the site to reflect the projected disease update. So, it's been wrong now for several years because, as we know, disease was never updated.
Not that it really matters since the spell is never used anyway, but lore implementation never happened for 716. With the ridiculous process they seem to have to go through to make changes to the website around here, someone figured they'd make it easy on themselves and update the site to reflect the projected disease update. So, it's been wrong now for several years because, as we know, disease was never updated.
>>Not that it really matters since the spell is never used anyway, but lore implementation never happened for 716. With the ridiculous process they seem to have to go through to make changes to the website around here, someone figured they'd make it easy on themselves and update the site to reflect the projected disease update. So, it's been wrong now for several years because, as we know, disease was never updated.
=(
I'm having an off day. No wonder I couldn't find its lore benefits.
=(
I'm having an off day. No wonder I couldn't find its lore benefits.
>>Just to correct something, balefire does get better with lore. Balefire, as a spell, was done almost completely right, and is quite a nice spell. The only thing I would change about balefire is in line with V's suggestion (and others have suggested this as well) to give balefire the ability to hit magic resistant things, such as constructs, etc...
Balefire is a very well designed spell indeed. I can't afford to use it all that much with my mana supply but when possible I make sure to use it simply because I want to. It even got me off my butt and working on illusions again so I can benefit from the demon. Future spells or the lore additions to current spells should really be compared to balefire.
Lochiven
>710 - messaging is out of date, needs a lore implementation. I like the idea of the SHIFT verb to command a tempest to switch targets
This has been coming back to me of late . . . the idea that Maelstrom, in concept, is cool, but the messaging, or perhaps the damage types, is not entirely sorcerous. Given your suggestions for other areas in Sorcery, what would you change, purely from a flavor text perspective? What about damage tables?
This has been coming back to me of late . . . the idea that Maelstrom, in concept, is cool, but the messaging, or perhaps the damage types, is not entirely sorcerous. Given your suggestions for other areas in Sorcery, what would you change, purely from a flavor text perspective? What about damage tables?
I DO sometimes feel a lingering concern over DC which makes me think that its elemental flares are less than sorcerous. That said, its sorcerous element, to me, comes in the fact that you are basically reaching into the enemies mana reserves and violently detonating it in an explosion of elemental flares, while simultaneously harvesting a portion of it for yourself. Control of essence and turning an enemy's body/mana against itself are staples of the Sorcerer spell list.
To me, the only thing sorcerous about 710 is the build up messaging during the open cast version, indicating that you "stand safely within the calm in the center" or some such . . . which feels right, as sorcerers, that we can thrive safely in a storm of destruction of our own creation. Focused Maelstrom loses even that element. Overall, the messaging and crit tables, as far as I'm concerned, are basically that of a wizard spell.
So I guess to sum up:
719 - non-sorcerous crit tables, incredibly sorcerous implementation and concept
710 - non-sorcerous crit tables, only vaguely sorcerous implementation and concept
Either way, thats merely my opinion, and I am very interested to see what V's suggestions would entail. Not to mention the concept of lore benefits or the SHIFT verb.
To me, the only thing sorcerous about 710 is the build up messaging during the open cast version, indicating that you "stand safely within the calm in the center" or some such . . . which feels right, as sorcerers, that we can thrive safely in a storm of destruction of our own creation. Focused Maelstrom loses even that element. Overall, the messaging and crit tables, as far as I'm concerned, are basically that of a wizard spell.
So I guess to sum up:
719 - non-sorcerous crit tables, incredibly sorcerous implementation and concept
710 - non-sorcerous crit tables, only vaguely sorcerous implementation and concept
Either way, thats merely my opinion, and I am very interested to see what V's suggestions would entail. Not to mention the concept of lore benefits or the SHIFT verb.
This is just a loosely formed idea that popped up earlier, but what if the maelstrom was created by making a small tear between valences (something along the lines of 725 or 740) and the sorcerer swirling it around himself or a target? As it moves around, it creates energy that could be used by the sorcerer in whatever way to create the elemental effects we get. Maybe the energy is drawn to the sorcerer and released or it's just altered by the spell as it comes out.
>This has been coming back to me of late . . . the idea that Maelstrom, in concept, is cool, but the messaging, or perhaps the damage types, is not entirely sorcerous. Given your suggestions for other areas in Sorcery, what would you change, purely from a flavor text perspective? What about damage tables?
Official spell description is this:
>Maelstrom gives a Sorcerer the ability to summon dark energy to swirl around him or her, creating a fierce storm. It is a potent spell, which can be very dangerous to bystanders.
Actually spell messaging is vaguely like a hurricane, wind rain and lightning. Very pedestrian.
We can do better. Dark energy, status effect flares perhaps (random curses dropping on targets hit). Even a Maelstrom of disintegration ala the end of X-Men The Last Stand (Jean Grey going all disintegration storm on Wolverine). Mini dark catalysts spawned by lightning bolts releasing plasma energy, whatever.
But not just regular wind, rain, lightning.
