Im going to be honest, I dont think that major demons is something sorcerers should be summoning. Now lesser demons is possible, HOWEVER lesser demons single handedly stopped the undead wars and just two of them killed almost an entire company of sylvans who were fighting there. Then just one of those lesser demons took all the elite mages and fighters from the army to defeat and only two of them survived.


At this point, it seemed as if Despana was on the verge of victory. With no other choice, the Faendryl released their secret magic. A host of Faendryl sorcerers drew magical circles upon the ground, and from them, summoned a number of fiery lesser demons to do battle with the undead. The lesser demons were far more than enough, devouring the living and dead forces of Despana with gusto. They were so powerful that they demolished the undead armies singlehandedly. The few that were not killed by the demons retreated into Maelshyve. Once the crippled army was inside of the keep, the Faendryl sorcerers chanted their final spell, and destroyed the keep, Despana, and her armies once and for all.
During the battle, a few of the sorcerers, unpracticed in the art of summoning, lost control of their demons. These demons went on a rampage, killing those on both sides, and the trauma of this horrified the elven allied races. Though they were eventually sent back across the veil or destroyed, the damage was done; in the eyes of elves, the Faendryl had commit an atrocious act.


As the lesser demons were summoned into existence and spread across the valley, their fiendish howls raising clouds of crows and sending wildlife streaking in all directions, the warhorses reared in panic, throwing some of their riders to the ground. The screams of the orcs and trolls were soon echoing off the surrounding hills, creating a chaotic din that swept the Eranishal into its embrace. Sylvans who had been thrown from their mounts tried to quickly regroup, and the effort seemed to be working for a brief time.
Then, the first of the Faendryl sorcerers lost control of the terrible creatures they had called. With so many of the sorcerors never having cast the spell before that day, and in such a vast context, it was inevitable that some would falter and lose concentration. While most of the attacking demons stayed on course and devoured their way through Despana's armies, a few suddenly looped back, bearing down upon the elven host. Two demons, kin in fire and fury, found the sylvan army. These terrors engulfed most of one of the three companies of the Eranishal, spouting great gouts of flame that enveloped the soldiers in a horrible, fiery death. As the demons flew on across the hills, incinerating stands of trees as well as animals and fleeing horses, Oriahn could do naught but witness his men scream and die. The fact that there were no surviving enemies to rout was an empty consolation.



IF they wanted to give us lesser demons make it a lore requirement for 725. 750 needs to be something that all sorcerers can benefit from, not just necromancers or demonologists. In fact im 100% against our capstone being specific to either lore.

Player of Malisai

Winterberry goes in both hands.

~ X., Free the Fifth

Yanso says, "Everyone offer thanks to the healthy looking lass and the most famous sorcerer or all time for finding these magical flowers."

<<Im going to be honest, I dont think that major demons is something sorcerers should be summoning. Now lesser demons is possible, HOWEVER lesser demons single handedly stopped the undead wars and just two of them killed almost an entire company of sylvans who were fighting there. Then just one of those lesser demons took all the elite mages and fighters from the army to defeat and only two of them survived.>> (KOOLED)

These phrases have been warped beyond all meaning by the level creep of the game. When the original history document was written "lesser demonic" referred to Level 16 to 25, and "greater demonic" was anything above Level 25. Banshees were the most powerful undead in the game, because there were only a few characters over Level 50. The lesser demonic would have been more powerful than most of her horde, but certainly not more powerful than her higher ranking undead. This interpretation that the demonic were just so very powerful had no basis.

In the context of the creature lore that existed in 1995, the demonic would have disrupted her command hierarchy with their presence. Most of her horde were mindless undead who would follow more powerful creatures of darkness. In that case the idea is not that they were annihilated on the battlefield, but that her undead turned on and chased her living soldiers back into the fortress.

In any event, regardless of the original sin issue on how it should have been interpreted, the lore is pretty incoherent on this subject. It is difficult to tell what is just war propaganda in an IC sense. But I would not expect "major summoning" on a spell list to imply any consistency with whatever "major demon" means at the moment. These phrases seem really fluid in the absence of a huge expansion on what we know about the demonic, and could just as easily get redefined again in the future. I doubt it would even be possible in principle to summon something like Althedeus or the Ur-Daemon.


<<Perhaps this has been suggested over the decades but we could rename 725 to Minor Demonic Summoning and make 750 Major Summoning. This way it can be used to summon Major Demons with Demonology Lore and the Horrifying Spirits of the Damned (i.e. wraiths and banshees) using Necromancy Lore. The most impressive entities will require full dedication to one lore or the other but a range of impressive summons would be available to the less skilled and specialized.>> (SILVEAN)

The trouble with the demonic has always been that for the most part they do not exist. (I remember one of the GMs saying a decade ago, in so many words, that they could have done demons but chose to make the Elven Nations instead.) They should be just another creature class, represented at every level from the bottom to the top. Without an Order of Voln or Cleric profession for killing demons, though, there is not much incentive for expanding their numbers. Unless we really limited the undead options, the range of choices would not even be remotely balanced.

It would be very easy to fix this problem. All we have to do is make demonic "unholy" for Voln and Cleric purposes, then go back and reclassify some of the undead as demonic. Some obvious candidates would be night hounds and nightmare steeds, which are treated as undead now, but were most likely not intended to be interpreted that way. Pookas and spectral miners would still be undead.

- Xorus' player

Another possibility is that 725 and 730 could be modified to unlock "combat demons" and the undead with lore training, but those would only be single serving friends and 750 would be more like that old Demonic Gate spell slot. It would range from allowing you to summon an entity of whichever class some number of levels above yourself, but allow multiple such entities to be summoned simultaneously with greater numbers the lower in level they are from this maximum threshold. It would be a miniature horde that sweeps the hunting area in a player friendly fashion since they are supposedly obeying us. We would also be able to augment it by casting it in groups.

With a "soulcraft" spell for 750 instead of mass summoning we would have a "necromancy of demons" and "summoning of undead" spell wrapped into one. It would bring back the idea of being able to make extra-planar entities with sorcery like the verlok are speculated in the Enchiridion. 2x Demonology lore is more useful for "demonic", 2x Necromancy is for "undead", and 1x in both is optimal for the ambiguous middle ground which would include things like necleriines or other kinds of demonic hybrids.

- Xorus' player

Trespass the Boundaries (750)

This spell allows sorcerers of particular courage to either siphon the power of alien worlds or pass physically into another valence. Mechanically, this provides three effects:

When cast upon an enemy, the sorcerer attempts to hurl them momentarily into a valence of such violence and suffering that even should they survive, they will never again be the same.

When cast upon the sorcerer herself, the spell provides a range of temporary benefits depending on training and luck.

When cast within the carefully prepared confines of a sorcerous circle, the spell opens a portal into another valence allowing for adventure, exploration, and almost certain death.