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Right, I just have no idea how it works, hence the response. Does it actually lower the resistance of the creature or give it negative crit padding?
-- dan/gnimble
| The damage done by this extra attack will be roughly proportional to the critical damage done by the caster in the initial strike. |
To what degree is it proportional. I'm not seeing it in the clip below. Also, all the demon/splash crits seem to have a +25 damage boost from their actual damage amounts when found via AS/DS resolutions.
>prep 713
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
>cast troll
You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +232 vs DS: +66 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +52 = +257
... and hit for 66 points of damage!
Skin blasted away leaving exposed and bloody muscle! Rank 4 Plasma Abdomen Critical
The jungle troll is stunned!
An inquisitive pure white imp shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your pure white imp loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the jungle troll's chest! Rank 1 Crush Chest Critical
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 40 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the jungle troll's arm to the bone!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 45 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the jungle troll's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 40 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
-- dan/gnimble
Here's a list of old and new suggestions from myself and others that could be added to augment Balefire. Any and all of these effects could be justified by tweaking DFs, mana costs, and other factors as needed. All additional affects could be subject to skill/stat/level/etc requirements as needed.
1. DoT effects from initial strike, and splash damage. - Targets struck either directly or indirectly by Balefire can experience secondary damage as the fire continues to burn.
2. Elemental/Damage-type weaknesses imparted on target(s) - Vetoed by Estild/Oscuro due to spell similarity.
3. Roleplay based messaging for Balefire - From controlling the fire to any number of other RP hooks.
4. Preparing the spell in a stable form, able to be stored for later use. - The caster is able to control one or more instances of the spell, in order to use them at a time of their choosing.
5. Balefire initial/Splash damage causes Non-corp critters to phase into corporeal beings - Think phase bolt.
6. The EMC/SMC tie-ins to the spell could be used to lower initial costs. - Rather than both go to the demon, one goes to the spell, and the other goes to the demon.
7. Demon specific benefits beyond infusion - A specific summon (Think Abyran-sa level specificity) that aids in additional ways to the spell. Suggestions are increased infusion, increased min/max chance for splashes, increased DF, etc.
8. Initial/Splash damage imparts status affect - The spell's damage makes target elligable for any number of possible negative status affects. (Curse, Nightmare, Disease, etc)
Evarin and his Mis'ri
1. DoT effects from initial strike, and splash damage. - Targets struck either directly or indirectly by Balefire can experience secondary damage as the fire continues to burn.
2. Elemental/Damage-type weaknesses imparted on target(s) - Vetoed by Estild/Oscuro due to spell similarity.
3. Roleplay based messaging for Balefire - From controlling the fire to any number of other RP hooks.
4. Preparing the spell in a stable form, able to be stored for later use. - The caster is able to control one or more instances of the spell, in order to use them at a time of their choosing.
5. Balefire initial/Splash damage causes Non-corp critters to phase into corporeal beings - Think phase bolt.
6. The EMC/SMC tie-ins to the spell could be used to lower initial costs. - Rather than both go to the demon, one goes to the spell, and the other goes to the demon.
7. Demon specific benefits beyond infusion - A specific summon (Think Abyran-sa level specificity) that aids in additional ways to the spell. Suggestions are increased infusion, increased min/max chance for splashes, increased DF, etc.
8. Initial/Splash damage imparts status affect - The spell's damage makes target elligable for any number of possible negative status affects. (Curse, Nightmare, Disease, etc)
Evarin and his Mis'ri
cone of balefire, prep 713 cast
your demon goes crazy biting into everything in the room, causing balefire criticals (plus special demon critical), by AS, (since your demon can have it's own AS based on something other than spell aiming, negating the need for an AS boost)
Oh, and its a cone spell, so it will hit everything (plus to balance it can be reflected back in invasion instances similarly to cone of lightning)
but considering i'm no programmer nor interested in balance, just make it a spell that kills (in a cone fashion) in one shot, cost 1 mana, and doesn't risk treasure loss like evil eye or implode.
kthnx!
your demon goes crazy biting into everything in the room, causing balefire criticals (plus special demon critical), by AS, (since your demon can have it's own AS based on something other than spell aiming, negating the need for an AS boost)
Oh, and its a cone spell, so it will hit everything (plus to balance it can be reflected back in invasion instances similarly to cone of lightning)
but considering i'm no programmer nor interested in balance, just make it a spell that kills (in a cone fashion) in one shot, cost 1 mana, and doesn't risk treasure loss like evil eye or implode.
kthnx!
Heh. How about just this?
Spell: Cone of Death (7150)
Effect: Area
Spell description: Kills everything.
Spell in action:
You summon massive sorcerous energies and utter a single word - "Die."
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
Spell: Cone of Death (7150)
Effect: Area
Spell description: Kills everything.
Spell in action:
You summon massive sorcerous energies and utter a single word - "Die."
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
A jungle troll falls to the ground and dies.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
very Lord Soth of you Fox.
...
I read Evarin's post and I'm reminded of some Jim Carrey movie, I can't remember which one (They all seem to run together don't they) maybe Fun with Dick and Jane. Through a bizarre set of circumstances Jim's character ends up in front of a Home Depot with a bunch of illegal immigrants. A guy rolls up in a pickup and without stopping yells "I need two guys who know how to paint." or something like that. A mob of 30 people run to jump in his truck and he has to peel out fast to prevent them all from coming.
I think the GMs are the guy in the truck. They have this new spell they've been working on, they tiptoe up to the sorcerer forums, and quietly whisper "So we got this new spe..." and they can't even finish because they get cutoff and a chorous of a thousand voices starts saying "What about this what about that what about the other thing."
... or, to say it another way, maybe we're coming on a little strong. Do you want Strath to see his shadow and give us another 6 year drought?
...
I read Evarin's post and I'm reminded of some Jim Carrey movie, I can't remember which one (They all seem to run together don't they) maybe Fun with Dick and Jane. Through a bizarre set of circumstances Jim's character ends up in front of a Home Depot with a bunch of illegal immigrants. A guy rolls up in a pickup and without stopping yells "I need two guys who know how to paint." or something like that. A mob of 30 people run to jump in his truck and he has to peel out fast to prevent them all from coming.
I think the GMs are the guy in the truck. They have this new spell they've been working on, they tiptoe up to the sorcerer forums, and quietly whisper "So we got this new spe..." and they can't even finish because they get cutoff and a chorous of a thousand voices starts saying "What about this what about that what about the other thing."
... or, to say it another way, maybe we're coming on a little strong. Do you want Strath to see his shadow and give us another 6 year drought?
I hope the GMs take the suggestions and posts as excitement and appreciation. I think that's how they're meant. The suggestions are just an offshoot of that. Even if none of them are taken, Balefire looks pretty bad-ass.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
>a native spell is going to put me to rimalon level bolting. --V
Pffffft! We'll see! I'm going to acquire the self-knowledge version of your native AS booster at the 2014 EG auction. SO THERE!
-Sea Wizard
You reach into the cauldron and take out a silvery monogram rocket.
The cauldron raises up two of its legs and clasps them in victory.
Pffffft! We'll see! I'm going to acquire the self-knowledge version of your native AS booster at the 2014 EG auction. SO THERE!
-Sea Wizard
You reach into the cauldron and take out a silvery monogram rocket.
The cauldron raises up two of its legs and clasps them in victory.
>I think the GMs are the guy in the truck. They have this new spell they've been working on, they tiptoe up to the sorcerer forums, and quietly whisper "So we got this new spe..." and they can't even finish because they get cutoff and a chorous of a thousand voices starts saying "What about this what about that what about the other thing." ... or, to say it another way, maybe we're coming on a little strong. Do you want Strath to see his shadow and give us another 6 year drought? -Viril
This is silly. Why preview the spell if you don't want player input? It would be pretty sad if all he wanted was a bunch of vapid smiles and hearty handshakes. I don't think the spells NEEDS any of the upgrades that have been suggested, though I hope at a minimum it has some roleplay flavoring. Beyond that, and as I mentioned, you will likely need to tweak DFs or mana costs to further augment the spell.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
This is silly. Why preview the spell if you don't want player input? It would be pretty sad if all he wanted was a bunch of vapid smiles and hearty handshakes. I don't think the spells NEEDS any of the upgrades that have been suggested, though I hope at a minimum it has some roleplay flavoring. Beyond that, and as I mentioned, you will likely need to tweak DFs or mana costs to further augment the spell.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
>>Irony is so ironic sometimes Doug.<<
That sounds so ... redundant.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
That sounds so ... redundant.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Heh! I just love sorcerers!
Touche', Paul. :)
Not in 2014, Rims. That one's mine. ;)
Evarin, I can think of a few reasons. Setting that aside, though, I'm curious how you can determine that the spell likely needs anything, based on what's been provided so far?
Throgg, I deserved it. Sometimes you have to say things twice to get my attention. ;)
Doug
Touche', Paul. :)
Not in 2014, Rims. That one's mine. ;)
Evarin, I can think of a few reasons. Setting that aside, though, I'm curious how you can determine that the spell likely needs anything, based on what's been provided so far?
Throgg, I deserved it. Sometimes you have to say things twice to get my attention. ;)
Doug
>I'm curious how you can determine that the spell likely needs anything, based on what's been provided so far? - Doug
"I don't think the spells NEEDS any of the upgrades that have been suggested, though I hope at a minimum it has some roleplay flavoring. Beyond that, and as I mentioned, you will likely need to tweak DFs or mana costs to further augment the spell." - Me, post https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=6656
>Sometimes you have to say things twice to get my attention. ;) - Doug
Noted.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
"I don't think the spells NEEDS any of the upgrades that have been suggested, though I hope at a minimum it has some roleplay flavoring. Beyond that, and as I mentioned, you will likely need to tweak DFs or mana costs to further augment the spell." - Me, post https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=6656
>Sometimes you have to say things twice to get my attention. ;) - Doug
Noted.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Doug had just gotten finished saying, "say things twice", and you said "Noted." I doubled it for you. :)
.
.
That tagline came from when some Guatemalan players were coming to my Judo class on a regular basis--leading to all of us going back and forth from Spanish to English by way of Japanese [body parts, mostly]--and one evening, after we'd been working on turnovers and armbars, someone said "cojone hishigi juji gatame"...
...which caused about a dozen people who were busy changing & putting their shoes on to wince and groan in unison.
(A rough translation is "testicle crushing arm hold.")
.
.
That tagline came from when some Guatemalan players were coming to my Judo class on a regular basis--leading to all of us going back and forth from Spanish to English by way of Japanese [body parts, mostly]--and one evening, after we'd been working on turnovers and armbars, someone said "cojone hishigi juji gatame"...
...which caused about a dozen people who were busy changing & putting their shoes on to wince and groan in unison.
(A rough translation is "testicle crushing arm hold.")
Attempting to argue with you Doug would be absolutely pointless. I've seen your take on "balance" before, and frankly, I may as well save my breath. You've already taken a snippet of my post out of context, for which I hope to god you did to support some sort of an argument, rather than actual ignorance.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Evarin and his Mis'ri
I am not belittling you. I called you ignorant because you took my comments about DF and mana changes out of context. I am telling you that I see no point in having a discussion with you. I've seen what opinions you hold, what arguments and stances you've championed, and there is nothing to be gained by holding a discourse with you.
Let us leave the matter at that, shall we?
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Let us leave the matter at that, shall we?
Evarin and his Mis'ri
First off, gotta say I'm very pleased to see any positive changes for sorcerer's, we're obviously WAY over due. The new spell looks great, super happy about an AS booster. But I don't know how happy I'll be if it comes at the cost of loosing 2 spells to get it. I'm curious to see how the curse/nightmare combo is actually going to work...that TD pushdown is one of my best friends right now. Not to mention all the curses are just plain fun to play with, as is nightmare.
Also, if demons are going to add a damage boost to the spell and require thier own mana to do so, I sincerely hope there are plans to keep demons illusioned while doing so, not to mention many of the other demon actions that cause illusions to fail. Getting injured in the wild and loosing the ability to cast could result in many ridiculous arrests while running or ringing back to town for aid-especially if you plan to have them follow more closely now.
Overall, I'm quite anxious to see what other changes you have in store, I'm just praying it's not going to come at a cost of loosing even more spells than the sorcerer circle has already lost.
Also, if demons are going to add a damage boost to the spell and require thier own mana to do so, I sincerely hope there are plans to keep demons illusioned while doing so, not to mention many of the other demon actions that cause illusions to fail. Getting injured in the wild and loosing the ability to cast could result in many ridiculous arrests while running or ringing back to town for aid-especially if you plan to have them follow more closely now.
Overall, I'm quite anxious to see what other changes you have in store, I'm just praying it's not going to come at a cost of loosing even more spells than the sorcerer circle has already lost.
>> Not to mention all the curses are just plain fun to play with, as is nightmare.<<
Curses can be useful, but aside from casting it on annoying fellow adventurers, I have never had much use for nightmare. On those occasions when I have actually tried to use it, I almost always get the message "the such-and-such IS a nightmare", and the critter simply ignores the spell.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Curses can be useful, but aside from casting it on annoying fellow adventurers, I have never had much use for nightmare. On those occasions when I have actually tried to use it, I almost always get the message "the such-and-such IS a nightmare", and the critter simply ignores the spell.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Balefire looks very nice, I especially like the possibility of a knock down and stun, plus the idea of setting critters on fire is also appealing to me. :) Firespirit is ok, but it lacks that sorcerer flare.
Could we have a sneak-peek at how curse and nightmare will work?
I actually use nightmare and curse; will the costs of nightmare go up to 15 and what about the duration? The website does not seem to have durations for curses. Are they permanent and if so, would that be extended to nightmare? I don't typically see critters surviving 90 second after I cast nightmare on them... I would love to see what balefire does to cursed and nightmare'd trolls. I can't wait to try out that combo.
Basically, I am wishing for a longer duration nightmare and curses that have half the mana cost for successful casts (and unfortunately full 15 points for failed casts).
Magarven the Mad
Could we have a sneak-peek at how curse and nightmare will work?
I actually use nightmare and curse; will the costs of nightmare go up to 15 and what about the duration? The website does not seem to have durations for curses. Are they permanent and if so, would that be extended to nightmare? I don't typically see critters surviving 90 second after I cast nightmare on them... I would love to see what balefire does to cursed and nightmare'd trolls. I can't wait to try out that combo.
Basically, I am wishing for a longer duration nightmare and curses that have half the mana cost for successful casts (and unfortunately full 15 points for failed casts).
Magarven the Mad
Balefire huh? Can I burn players out of the Pattern with it? kidding...
seriously though. good to finally have some tangible offensive benefit from Demonology.
so the demon has to be able to receive mana from you for this to work? I don't like the idea of having to send 4 mana to the demon (it only gets 3) that often.
I'd suggest that with enough demonology lore (100 or more) there would be a chance to instantly banish the initial target to a demonic valence. instant kill, no loot, but automatically replenishes all of your demon's mana and gives you a small AS bonus towards your next balefire attack.
~Moredin
seriously though. good to finally have some tangible offensive benefit from Demonology.
so the demon has to be able to receive mana from you for this to work? I don't like the idea of having to send 4 mana to the demon (it only gets 3) that often.
I'd suggest that with enough demonology lore (100 or more) there would be a chance to instantly banish the initial target to a demonic valence. instant kill, no loot, but automatically replenishes all of your demon's mana and gives you a small AS bonus towards your next balefire attack.
~Moredin
<< 3. Roleplay based messaging for Balefire - From controlling the fire to any number of other RP hooks. >>
It's plasma. It's a ball. See http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plasma+ball
This makes me want to go out and buy a plasma ball. Or maybe a lava lamp. :)
It's plasma. It's a ball. See http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plasma+ball
This makes me want to go out and buy a plasma ball. Or maybe a lava lamp. :)
Sure, Evarin - I just need to correct a couple of fallacies. I expect, though, in fairness to your request, that the matter of your opinion will stay exactly where it is. I should at least be able to meet that expectation. ;)
TL:DR summary -- I disagree with the opinion that sorcery suffers the most from 'balance' issues. There are a couple of spot points that need addressing, but the root problem is much different.
As interesting as that is, the main point is that it is premature to discuss the DF / AvD / mana mechanics factors of an unreleased spell, using a newly developed and unseen(?) critical table and newly specified damage types.
A spell, when introduced to us at this stage, has had a significant amount of thought already applied.
I have faith to the point of confidence that the DF or mana cost of a single spell in a single profession would never be introduced at such a level as to introduce material balance issues. To even suggest that (if the tie between lack of context and balance issues does suggest) is as preposterous as suggesting that 'sorcerers are broken, and in order to restore balance xxxx needs to be changed'.
I don't think sorcerers are overpowered. In fact, there are specific gaps that I think need to be closed -- bolt AS (which looks like it might be coming around), maneuver protection (the only spell user without it?), CS gap, etc.
The problem is, I don't think sorcerers are underpowered, either. I'm pretty sure the fact that sorcerers continue to advance quite handily in this day and age supports that observation. This doesn't mean I think sorcerers have enough development, nor that sorcery is as sexy as it was 15, 10 or even 5 years past.
It does, however, mean that I'm not one of the Hidden Valley Moaning Spirits that sees the only means of advancing the cause as complaining. I don't 'align with the whine', and so I don't get the esteem. Irrespective of the importance of that esteem, I am loathe to change, as in principle I believe a fair part of the 'not as sexy as' portion of sorcery is due to everyone bashing how bad off sorcery is, most significantly the few very senior sorcerers remaining who publicly loved and touted the profession historically.
Hopefully those provide some reasonable guideposts about what my stance / opinion is. You'll note that I haven't shared my thoughts on game balance (wrong location and way too complex for a single post), but I freely accept and own the opinion you, Evarin, hold about my opinions, arguments and stance.
My key point, though, given where the conversation has tended, is:
I believe strongly that it is premature to discuss the DF / AvD / mana mechanics factors of an unreleased spell, using a newly developed and unseen(?) critical table and newly specified damage types. My belief is borne from my personal experience with the wizard spell 540.
When our guru first brought 540 forward (in much the same manner as happened here), I was unhappy (perhaps even belligerent). 40 mana? 10 minute duration? Might activate? Based on what skill? That's nuts! I pointed this out -- not only publicly but privately, and strongly -- more strongly than anything said ever in the sorcery folder since Karhl's departure.
When the spell was released, it cost 40 mana, and had 10 minutes duration. It doesn't always activate, but I hold that it is one of the best designed spells of the 'new era'. What changed? I tried it. And along the way, I felt more and more sheepish about my public and private stance on the spell. And in retrospect, I truly hope that the wizard guru took what ultimately ended up being a travesty -- my pre-release position on the spell -- and tossed it right out the window without any more thought than "just wait. . . you'll see."
I learned a valuable lesson, one that I believe in so strongly that I'll take all the scorn sorcerer players can dish out to deliver it.
A spell, when introduced to us at this stage, has a significant amount of thought already applied. While it is very true no human can consider everything, it is also very true that the people designing and coding these spells have tools and resources that we the players cannot even guess at. For the mechanics aspects -- trust them. They will be much happier for it, and so will you, believe it or not. And if it for some reason does need tweaking (yep, that has happened, too), let it happen after the release, and after observations.
For the record - I'd like to see the spell come in somewhere around the major acid DF, perhaps slightly higher. My reason isn't based in math, it is based in the near equivalent prototypical elemental nature of acid and plasma (here?).
And I'd like to see a CS based component (highlighting the unique mix that is sorcery), that blends plasma, elemental and spiritual criticals after the initial damage resolution.
And I'd hope that the spell characteristics are set such that the spell results in deathcrit approximately 20% of the time across 10000 casts for a maximally trained capped sorcerer, 12% of the time for the average trained capped sorcerer, 15% of the time for the high-mid game sorcerer that sacrificed specifically for the spell, and as high as 5% of the time across 10000 casts for a sorcerer that just picked up the spell and hasn't really started training for it yet.
But -- I'll be happy with the first implementation, as I'm fairly sure my sorcerers will enjoy casting it. Lesson learned.
Doug
TL:DR summary -- I disagree with the opinion that sorcery suffers the most from 'balance' issues. There are a couple of spot points that need addressing, but the root problem is much different.
As interesting as that is, the main point is that it is premature to discuss the DF / AvD / mana mechanics factors of an unreleased spell, using a newly developed and unseen(?) critical table and newly specified damage types.
A spell, when introduced to us at this stage, has had a significant amount of thought already applied.
I have faith to the point of confidence that the DF or mana cost of a single spell in a single profession would never be introduced at such a level as to introduce material balance issues. To even suggest that (if the tie between lack of context and balance issues does suggest) is as preposterous as suggesting that 'sorcerers are broken, and in order to restore balance xxxx needs to be changed'.
I don't think sorcerers are overpowered. In fact, there are specific gaps that I think need to be closed -- bolt AS (which looks like it might be coming around), maneuver protection (the only spell user without it?), CS gap, etc.
The problem is, I don't think sorcerers are underpowered, either. I'm pretty sure the fact that sorcerers continue to advance quite handily in this day and age supports that observation. This doesn't mean I think sorcerers have enough development, nor that sorcery is as sexy as it was 15, 10 or even 5 years past.
It does, however, mean that I'm not one of the Hidden Valley Moaning Spirits that sees the only means of advancing the cause as complaining. I don't 'align with the whine', and so I don't get the esteem. Irrespective of the importance of that esteem, I am loathe to change, as in principle I believe a fair part of the 'not as sexy as' portion of sorcery is due to everyone bashing how bad off sorcery is, most significantly the few very senior sorcerers remaining who publicly loved and touted the profession historically.
Hopefully those provide some reasonable guideposts about what my stance / opinion is. You'll note that I haven't shared my thoughts on game balance (wrong location and way too complex for a single post), but I freely accept and own the opinion you, Evarin, hold about my opinions, arguments and stance.
My key point, though, given where the conversation has tended, is:
I believe strongly that it is premature to discuss the DF / AvD / mana mechanics factors of an unreleased spell, using a newly developed and unseen(?) critical table and newly specified damage types. My belief is borne from my personal experience with the wizard spell 540.
When our guru first brought 540 forward (in much the same manner as happened here), I was unhappy (perhaps even belligerent). 40 mana? 10 minute duration? Might activate? Based on what skill? That's nuts! I pointed this out -- not only publicly but privately, and strongly -- more strongly than anything said ever in the sorcery folder since Karhl's departure.
When the spell was released, it cost 40 mana, and had 10 minutes duration. It doesn't always activate, but I hold that it is one of the best designed spells of the 'new era'. What changed? I tried it. And along the way, I felt more and more sheepish about my public and private stance on the spell. And in retrospect, I truly hope that the wizard guru took what ultimately ended up being a travesty -- my pre-release position on the spell -- and tossed it right out the window without any more thought than "just wait. . . you'll see."
I learned a valuable lesson, one that I believe in so strongly that I'll take all the scorn sorcerer players can dish out to deliver it.
A spell, when introduced to us at this stage, has a significant amount of thought already applied. While it is very true no human can consider everything, it is also very true that the people designing and coding these spells have tools and resources that we the players cannot even guess at. For the mechanics aspects -- trust them. They will be much happier for it, and so will you, believe it or not. And if it for some reason does need tweaking (yep, that has happened, too), let it happen after the release, and after observations.
For the record - I'd like to see the spell come in somewhere around the major acid DF, perhaps slightly higher. My reason isn't based in math, it is based in the near equivalent prototypical elemental nature of acid and plasma (here?).
And I'd like to see a CS based component (highlighting the unique mix that is sorcery), that blends plasma, elemental and spiritual criticals after the initial damage resolution.
And I'd hope that the spell characteristics are set such that the spell results in deathcrit approximately 20% of the time across 10000 casts for a maximally trained capped sorcerer, 12% of the time for the average trained capped sorcerer, 15% of the time for the high-mid game sorcerer that sacrificed specifically for the spell, and as high as 5% of the time across 10000 casts for a sorcerer that just picked up the spell and hasn't really started training for it yet.
But -- I'll be happy with the first implementation, as I'm fairly sure my sorcerers will enjoy casting it. Lesson learned.
Doug
>>I believe strongly that it is premature to discuss the DF / AvD / mana mechanics factors of an unreleased spell, using a newly developed and unseen(?) critical table and newly specified damage types. My belief is borne from my personal experience with the wizard spell 540. -Doug
New DF/AvD table, not critical table. The crit table will be plasma as indicated in the Strath snapshot. Just staying!
-- dan/gnimble
New DF/AvD table, not critical table. The crit table will be plasma as indicated in the Strath snapshot. Just staying!
-- dan/gnimble
>>And I'd hope that the spell characteristics are set such that the spell results in deathcrit approximately 20% of the time across 10000 casts for a maximally trained capped sorcerer, 12% of the time for the average trained capped sorcerer, 15% of the time for the high-mid game sorcerer that sacrificed specifically for the spell, and as high as 5% of the time across 10000 casts for a sorcerer that just picked up the spell and hasn't really started training for it yet. -Doug
Assuming non-corp, you simply won't see a 20% deathcrit rate with an unaimed spell subject to crit randomization (all AS/DS resolutions).
The problem I see with the spell is that it is a ball spell and splash damage from ball spells vs like level creatures blows, woefully so. The snapshot doesn't really show us much of the spell potential as no NIR has clarified the questions I have; namely, (1) what's the proportion/correlation of the demon crit to initial crit because there doesn't seem to be any in the example, and (2) what's the level of the caster compared to the level of the jungle trolls hit by the splash?
-- dan/gnimble
Assuming non-corp, you simply won't see a 20% deathcrit rate with an unaimed spell subject to crit randomization (all AS/DS resolutions).
The problem I see with the spell is that it is a ball spell and splash damage from ball spells vs like level creatures blows, woefully so. The snapshot doesn't really show us much of the spell potential as no NIR has clarified the questions I have; namely, (1) what's the proportion/correlation of the demon crit to initial crit because there doesn't seem to be any in the example, and (2) what's the level of the caster compared to the level of the jungle trolls hit by the splash?
-- dan/gnimble
