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yup, I hunted the rift from 1999 to the day otf opened, in like 2002, and when that happened I said I wouldn't be back, and I haven't been.
3 years of isolation is enough.
>>And I'd like to see a CS based component (highlighting the unique mix that is sorcery), that blends plasma, elemental and spiritual criticals after the initial damage resolution.<<
Although it would smack rather highly of being 'too much' like 1110 (Empathic Assault), I'd love to see this as well. I think it would fit rather nicely in with the minor demon tie-in. Kinda like torment (A spell I love, by the way), only without the stance requirements.
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power" - William Shakespeare
Although it would smack rather highly of being 'too much' like 1110 (Empathic Assault), I'd love to see this as well. I think it would fit rather nicely in with the minor demon tie-in. Kinda like torment (A spell I love, by the way), only without the stance requirements.
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power" - William Shakespeare
>Although it would smack rather highly of being 'too much' like 1110 (Empathic Assault), I'd love to see this as well. I think it would fit rather nicely in with the minor demon tie-in. Kinda like torment (A spell I love, by the way), only without the stance requirements.
Funny story, many years ago, when empaths still had 800s and no hunting spells, I proposed a bolt spell idea for sorcerers called psychic bolt.
It functioned pretty much exactly like empathic assault.
So they stole it first.
Funny story, many years ago, when empaths still had 800s and no hunting spells, I proposed a bolt spell idea for sorcerers called psychic bolt.
It functioned pretty much exactly like empathic assault.
So they stole it first.
Also, while Vaespilons are likely a bad example of your otherwise majorily accurate observation, Dan, I generally got deathcrits from splash damage while I was level 90. They do wear robes though, and are pretty underwhelmingly weak.
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power" - William Shakespeare
"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power" - William Shakespeare
There are several key issues I would like to address concerning Balefire. First, Ball Bolt spells have their advantages and disadvantages. They're great if you are at/under level hunting. However, when uphunting, they can be truly lackluster as there is nothing you can do to augment the splash damage. It has been stated that level is the only factor (outside of weaknesses/resistances). Creatures and hunting grounds are being designed where the disparity in levels will greatly diminish the value of such a spell.
In that vein, I think it would be nice if there was a channeled version of the spell that forgoes the Ball bolt for a single-target version. The benefits to targeting could be an increased DF, DS pushdown, etc. Whatever is deemed balanced between the mana costs and the targeting limitation. This option would give the spell added versatility, which has always been touted as the strength of our profession.
Next, the issue of the demon's influence on the type of damage done. The chart listed by Strathspey says that the damage type is a random chance at 1 of 2 possible types per valence. What would be nice is to have the randomness removed, and instead have the archetype of the demon determine its damage type. I don't personally believe it would be unbalancing to be able to control the 1-off damage type of the demon, and it would again add greater control and flexibility over the spell itself.
As I mentioned before, I think it would be an awesome addition to the spell to have a demon which specializes in augmenting it. Much like the Arashan and webs, this demon would allow the sorcerer an option/advantage when using Balefire. Instead of increasing damage which may throw off balance, why not allow this specific demon to set the damage type of your choosing across all the available choices? The demon should perhaps be limited in other ways as to help balance his choice against a demon that can hold more items, or better protect you from thieves, etc.
Finally, I still believe there is room to add roleplay abilities to the spell. It would be neat if a competition were made for players to design even as little as a few ambient scripts that would fire off if you killed a corpse with Balefire. I also like the idea of being able to summon Balefire into your hands briefly, even if it has no functional usage. This is a roleplaying game after all, and I would question anyone's motives who argues against a few decent RP verb traps.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
In that vein, I think it would be nice if there was a channeled version of the spell that forgoes the Ball bolt for a single-target version. The benefits to targeting could be an increased DF, DS pushdown, etc. Whatever is deemed balanced between the mana costs and the targeting limitation. This option would give the spell added versatility, which has always been touted as the strength of our profession.
Next, the issue of the demon's influence on the type of damage done. The chart listed by Strathspey says that the damage type is a random chance at 1 of 2 possible types per valence. What would be nice is to have the randomness removed, and instead have the archetype of the demon determine its damage type. I don't personally believe it would be unbalancing to be able to control the 1-off damage type of the demon, and it would again add greater control and flexibility over the spell itself.
As I mentioned before, I think it would be an awesome addition to the spell to have a demon which specializes in augmenting it. Much like the Arashan and webs, this demon would allow the sorcerer an option/advantage when using Balefire. Instead of increasing damage which may throw off balance, why not allow this specific demon to set the damage type of your choosing across all the available choices? The demon should perhaps be limited in other ways as to help balance his choice against a demon that can hold more items, or better protect you from thieves, etc.
Finally, I still believe there is room to add roleplay abilities to the spell. It would be neat if a competition were made for players to design even as little as a few ambient scripts that would fire off if you killed a corpse with Balefire. I also like the idea of being able to summon Balefire into your hands briefly, even if it has no functional usage. This is a roleplaying game after all, and I would question anyone's motives who argues against a few decent RP verb traps.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
>>Nightmare is the only way to sacrifice these creatures. <<
Ah! Ok, then maybe it can be useful. I never have used sacrifice, since my sorceress is in CoL; I just wrack like crazy. And no, I am not one of those poofter dark elf types; I get spirit back more rapidly.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ah! Ok, then maybe it can be useful. I never have used sacrifice, since my sorceress is in CoL; I just wrack like crazy. And no, I am not one of those poofter dark elf types; I get spirit back more rapidly.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Although it would smack rather highly of being 'too much' like 1110 (Empathic Assault), I'd love to see this as well. I think it would fit rather nicely in with the minor demon tie-in. Kinda like torment (A spell I love, by the way), only without the stance requirements. - LordKrip
I agree with your assessment that any pairing of Bolts with a CS-based follow-up will automatically be labeled too "Empathic" in nature. I too would prefer get away from the Ball Bolt aspect of the spell, as the ability is already available in Fire Spirit. However, I highly doubt they're willing to travel down that road. I think a Single-target option with increased damage and/or defensive pushdowns would be a fitting supplement to the spell.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
I agree with your assessment that any pairing of Bolts with a CS-based follow-up will automatically be labeled too "Empathic" in nature. I too would prefer get away from the Ball Bolt aspect of the spell, as the ability is already available in Fire Spirit. However, I highly doubt they're willing to travel down that road. I think a Single-target option with increased damage and/or defensive pushdowns would be a fitting supplement to the spell.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Empaths get a TD pushdown with 1110 on consecutive cycles. For a sorcerer, it would be awesome if Balefire induced a TD loss on the next or on subsequent CS attacks. That way, Balefire is not just a great ball-bolt spell, but also a good setup spell.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
>Empaths get a TD pushdown with 1110 on consecutive cycles. For a sorcerer, it would be awesome if Balefire induced a TD loss on the next or on subsequent CS attacks. That way, Balefire is not just a great ball-bolt spell, but also a good setup spell. ~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
I think that might be a bit much to ask for in a Ball-bolt form of the spell, but it would indeed be awesome if they were to ever consider a single-shot version of the spell. I'd be all for tweaking DFs down a bit to gain a TD reduction across the effected targets with the Ball-bolt version, though.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
I think that might be a bit much to ask for in a Ball-bolt form of the spell, but it would indeed be awesome if they were to ever consider a single-shot version of the spell. I'd be all for tweaking DFs down a bit to gain a TD reduction across the effected targets with the Ball-bolt version, though.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Or, to tie in lores even further, make a residual TD loss an effect of Necromancy lore - sapping the spirit and all. Creates even more options for the spell, and forces choices, which I know the current design principles encourage.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
>Or, to tie in lores even further, make a residual TD loss an effect of Necromancy lore - sapping the spirit and all. Creates even more options for the spell, and forces choices, which I know the current design principles encourage. ~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
I like it. I'd even be for it in an either/or situation between TD loss and splash damage.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
I like it. I'd even be for it in an either/or situation between TD loss and splash damage.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
>what if it had a chance to bestow upon a target a random curse? including of course the TD one. -Virilneus
Without knowing what they're doing to curse, it's hard to ask for a potential tie-in, let alone code it.
The question really becomes ... What do we want out of this spell?
A bolt spell that is intended to kill/maim its primary target? (we haven't a strong primary target bolt yet)
A bolt spell that is meant to damage the primary target and do minimal/moderate damage to other targets? (Fire Spirit)
A bolt spell that disables the primary/secondary targets with minimal chance of damage? (To some extent, Web bolt)
When looking at the question, I think sorcerers could most use a spell that does primarily a large amount of damage to one target, with a high chance of either killing it, or removing it from the fight. We are using the AS/DS system to bypass the CS/TD system of the target. Barring the ability to do that, I would want a bolt that has a high probability of disabling a large amount of creatures in the room. Damage is secondary to disabling. I don't think we'll ever be killing whole rooms with bolt spells. That's wizard territory.
All in all, Balefire with a demon present is going to do a number on your primary target. I would love to see the option to forgo a light swipe at everything else at the room in order to increase the damage to that 1 target. Otherwise, we should go the complete opposite way, and seek a guaranteed disabling of the primary target, and a moderate chance of disabling creatures struck by the splash effect. Damage is just gravy. A Mass Direct Damage CS spell should be filling that role.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Without knowing what they're doing to curse, it's hard to ask for a potential tie-in, let alone code it.
The question really becomes ... What do we want out of this spell?
A bolt spell that is intended to kill/maim its primary target? (we haven't a strong primary target bolt yet)
A bolt spell that is meant to damage the primary target and do minimal/moderate damage to other targets? (Fire Spirit)
A bolt spell that disables the primary/secondary targets with minimal chance of damage? (To some extent, Web bolt)
When looking at the question, I think sorcerers could most use a spell that does primarily a large amount of damage to one target, with a high chance of either killing it, or removing it from the fight. We are using the AS/DS system to bypass the CS/TD system of the target. Barring the ability to do that, I would want a bolt that has a high probability of disabling a large amount of creatures in the room. Damage is secondary to disabling. I don't think we'll ever be killing whole rooms with bolt spells. That's wizard territory.
All in all, Balefire with a demon present is going to do a number on your primary target. I would love to see the option to forgo a light swipe at everything else at the room in order to increase the damage to that 1 target. Otherwise, we should go the complete opposite way, and seek a guaranteed disabling of the primary target, and a moderate chance of disabling creatures struck by the splash effect. Damage is just gravy. A Mass Direct Damage CS spell should be filling that role.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
My question is...
Why tie all these suggestions into "this" spell?
Granted, you are seeing something new and have wants and desires, but there are also other spells that I think would more appropriately fit the bill for some of the suggestions made for Balefire.
---
>>TD pushdown
I would see something more like Mind Jolt filling this role.
reduce the stun time and add in a TD pushdown for any spells cast upon the target while it is under the effects.
Lore training would provide an inherant pushdown on the initial cast. I believe this would turn Mind Jolt into a "set up" spell as it was originally intended, but more useable by sorcerers of today.
Maybe we could change it to a bolt spell and have it actually do some damage too, since sorcerers don't actually have a straight up "bolt" spell, and will have two "ball" spells. This could definitely be an option now, with sorcerers also getting some Bolt AS boosting. Not much in the way of damage (on par with minor water DF? but plasma?), but a successful strike will incur a pretty hefty stun with no warding possible (level vs level and lores to determine stun duration). TD pushdown effect for X seconds with specific lore training (ie: 30 combined ranks in sorcerous lores with a minimum of 10 ranks in either)
---
>>So basically, this spell is Fire Spirit with a higher DF
Technically from a damage perspective, yes. But if I remember right, plasma doesn't trigger certain reprocussions in hunting areas like actual "fire" based spells would. So it has that advantage as well. Not to mention plasma flares (splash) are typically more potent then fire as well. I am sure fire spirit would still have advantages in certain areas (ice critters, trolls, etc).
---
>>The cone of lightning bit...
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Cone nerfed into the equivalent of a fly swatter, the game really doesn't need another spell like this. Any spell that requires special creatures to prevent its use during invasions has game balance issues. I hope this isn't even a consideration for Balefire, and I hope Cone is nerfed via Lore review (ie: require lore for it to strike multiple targets and give it ZERO bonus to DF from air/water lore). The only exception to this would be the auction items, which could be moved to an arcane circle spell, since wizards wouldn't likely be using them.
all in all, if sorcerers want a player friendly spell that can hit everything in the room, I'd start designing something for 735 and put it on par with Divine Wrath which is being moved to the 335 slot.
I think I'm getting off topic...
---
And now for my thoughts on Balefire as presented in the example...
I like it. I think it's been polished up well and meets any expectations I would have for a 13th rank spell.
One little trick I wouldn't mind seeing is having your demon be able to "store" it for you and unleash it when told. Basically having a free cast of it. There would need to be a duration it can be stored for by the demon, and I would think it should require some pretty hefty lore training to do so.
However, I would think a demon should be able to do this with any attack spell and make is a skill trained via Sorcerer Guild.
-James-
Why tie all these suggestions into "this" spell?
Granted, you are seeing something new and have wants and desires, but there are also other spells that I think would more appropriately fit the bill for some of the suggestions made for Balefire.
---
>>TD pushdown
I would see something more like Mind Jolt filling this role.
reduce the stun time and add in a TD pushdown for any spells cast upon the target while it is under the effects.
Lore training would provide an inherant pushdown on the initial cast. I believe this would turn Mind Jolt into a "set up" spell as it was originally intended, but more useable by sorcerers of today.
Maybe we could change it to a bolt spell and have it actually do some damage too, since sorcerers don't actually have a straight up "bolt" spell, and will have two "ball" spells. This could definitely be an option now, with sorcerers also getting some Bolt AS boosting. Not much in the way of damage (on par with minor water DF? but plasma?), but a successful strike will incur a pretty hefty stun with no warding possible (level vs level and lores to determine stun duration). TD pushdown effect for X seconds with specific lore training (ie: 30 combined ranks in sorcerous lores with a minimum of 10 ranks in either)
---
>>So basically, this spell is Fire Spirit with a higher DF
Technically from a damage perspective, yes. But if I remember right, plasma doesn't trigger certain reprocussions in hunting areas like actual "fire" based spells would. So it has that advantage as well. Not to mention plasma flares (splash) are typically more potent then fire as well. I am sure fire spirit would still have advantages in certain areas (ice critters, trolls, etc).
---
>>The cone of lightning bit...
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Cone nerfed into the equivalent of a fly swatter, the game really doesn't need another spell like this. Any spell that requires special creatures to prevent its use during invasions has game balance issues. I hope this isn't even a consideration for Balefire, and I hope Cone is nerfed via Lore review (ie: require lore for it to strike multiple targets and give it ZERO bonus to DF from air/water lore). The only exception to this would be the auction items, which could be moved to an arcane circle spell, since wizards wouldn't likely be using them.
all in all, if sorcerers want a player friendly spell that can hit everything in the room, I'd start designing something for 735 and put it on par with Divine Wrath which is being moved to the 335 slot.
I think I'm getting off topic...
---
And now for my thoughts on Balefire as presented in the example...
I like it. I think it's been polished up well and meets any expectations I would have for a 13th rank spell.
One little trick I wouldn't mind seeing is having your demon be able to "store" it for you and unleash it when told. Basically having a free cast of it. There would need to be a duration it can be stored for by the demon, and I would think it should require some pretty hefty lore training to do so.
However, I would think a demon should be able to do this with any attack spell and make is a skill trained via Sorcerer Guild.
-James-
>My question is... Why tie all these suggestions into "this" spell?
Why? I don't expect (or want) a second bolt spell on the 700's, so it's now or nothing. As I said, I think the spell is pretty good. All I would like is the ability to up the damage if you cast a single-target version, as well as RP messaging. A specific demon which augments the spell would be nice, but the first two are the main suggestions I have for Balefire.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Why? I don't expect (or want) a second bolt spell on the 700's, so it's now or nothing. As I said, I think the spell is pretty good. All I would like is the ability to up the damage if you cast a single-target version, as well as RP messaging. A specific demon which augments the spell would be nice, but the first two are the main suggestions I have for Balefire.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
All in all... I think I'm fine as is. I just want a good bolt spell. No fancy junk needed. I'm okay with releasing it out the gate as it was shown in the preview. Many of us have petitioned for a bolt spell for years... (And by years I mean quite a few.) We're finally getting what we wanted. No need to slow down development with a bunch of changes.
Rontuu
Rontuu
I'm happy enough getting a bolt spell in the 700s. Most of the secondary effects (the 725 tie-in) are things my own sorcerer will never see (they are neither necromancer or demonologist) but I am still looking forward to this spell and the ROI fix.
Even so, nothing is lost by making suggestions for other neat effects as the worst response to them is "No," and I think we are all use to that by now.
Nick
Even so, nothing is lost by making suggestions for other neat effects as the worst response to them is "No," and I think we are all use to that by now.
Nick
I'm glad you guys like the spell so far. All the discussion and analysis and suggestions are welcome, even if we can't use most of the ideas presented. It gets me thinking laterally about issues and opportunities elsewhere in sorcerer development.
We're going to be tweaking some of the specs slightly. Previously the demon's crit would cost it up to 3 mana from its pool. That cost will be fixed at 2 points. (If the demon has less than 2 mana, it won't trigger the extra crit.) The chance for the demon's crit to fire off will be based on the caster's elemental and spiritual mana control skills. For each point of bonus on the seed[1] chart for both EMC bonus and SMC bonus, the chance for the crit goes up by 2%. For example, someone with 30 ranks or 120 bonus of EMC and 40 ranks/140 bonus of SMC has 2 * (15 + 16) = 62% chance of getting that crit. 200 ranks of both gives you 96%.
Illusioned demons won't contribute a crit and thereby won't blow their illusions.
The spell will be available on scrolls. I haven't decided yet if it should be available in regular treasure wands, but there will be an alchemy version. It will also be imbeddable.
The example cast I gave were kind of lousy in retrospect... dan/gnimble was correct in suspecting that the level difference between me and the troll was a little unfair. I think I was in level-100 mode at the time. I'll try to get a few more realistic examples posted tonight.
The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again.
I'm all for including a simple RP feature or two, "simple" meaning something that doesn't provide combat advantages. (Combat advantages have to be considered separately.) Holding a floating ball of flame would be neat, but it would have to be subject to the existing 30-second limitation on prepped spells. That's something I think we'd want to give to wizards and others as well. Keep the suggestions coming.
-Strath
We're going to be tweaking some of the specs slightly. Previously the demon's crit would cost it up to 3 mana from its pool. That cost will be fixed at 2 points. (If the demon has less than 2 mana, it won't trigger the extra crit.) The chance for the demon's crit to fire off will be based on the caster's elemental and spiritual mana control skills. For each point of bonus on the seed[1] chart for both EMC bonus and SMC bonus, the chance for the crit goes up by 2%. For example, someone with 30 ranks or 120 bonus of EMC and 40 ranks/140 bonus of SMC has 2 * (15 + 16) = 62% chance of getting that crit. 200 ranks of both gives you 96%.
Illusioned demons won't contribute a crit and thereby won't blow their illusions.
The spell will be available on scrolls. I haven't decided yet if it should be available in regular treasure wands, but there will be an alchemy version. It will also be imbeddable.
The example cast I gave were kind of lousy in retrospect... dan/gnimble was correct in suspecting that the level difference between me and the troll was a little unfair. I think I was in level-100 mode at the time. I'll try to get a few more realistic examples posted tonight.
The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again.
I'm all for including a simple RP feature or two, "simple" meaning something that doesn't provide combat advantages. (Combat advantages have to be considered separately.) Holding a floating ball of flame would be neat, but it would have to be subject to the existing 30-second limitation on prepped spells. That's something I think we'd want to give to wizards and others as well. Keep the suggestions coming.
-Strath
Hey Strath, glad to hear our suggestions were welcome.
Have you given any thought to a single-cast version of the spell? Drop the Ball bolt, up the DF, and have a guaranteed chance of a demonic flare?
Beyond the RP messaging that's the only real improvement I would like to see, just an alternate use of the spell.
As for Balefire and magical objects, I am 100% for inclusion of the spell into treasure-based wands, imbeddable, scrolls, etc. Profession guarding is petty and pointless.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
Have you given any thought to a single-cast version of the spell? Drop the Ball bolt, up the DF, and have a guaranteed chance of a demonic flare?
Beyond the RP messaging that's the only real improvement I would like to see, just an alternate use of the spell.
As for Balefire and magical objects, I am 100% for inclusion of the spell into treasure-based wands, imbeddable, scrolls, etc. Profession guarding is petty and pointless.
Evarin and his Mis'ri
I don't get it . . .
>The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again. -Strath
Even if the demon crit has a potential top-end crit rank equal to the resultant crit from the initial hit (after crit randomization on the initial hit) and then subject to another round of randomization, then I would be exceptionally concerned about the effectiveness of demons with balefire; two rounds of randomization would position the demon crit to a place of comedy. Furthermore, the demon crit seems to be worse than two rounds of randomization. Given the posted example, if the initial crit rank was 4, it would be impossible to get a demon crit of 1 with crit randomization; the spread would be 4, 3, and 2. I can only guess, the crit padding the jungle trolls has applied to the initial crit AND to the demon crit, which creates a double-dip effect. If this is also the case, then anything that has crit padding (quite a few creatures actually have crit padding after analyzing thousands of melee AS/DS resolutions and controlling for Dexterity Bonus) makes the demon crit is even more comical.
Except! You said a rank 1 from an initial rank 4 is possible, which leads me to believe the potential top-end crit rank is actually less than the initial crit rank. Given crit randomization, for this case (initial rank 4 to demon rank 1) to work, the potential demon top-end crit rank must be no less than 2 ranks below the initial crit (rank 2) to achieve a rank 1 after randomization.
Is my understanding of the demon crit component of Balefire correct?
1) The demon crit is subject to Crit Randomization.
2) Crit Padding triggers twice on the creature. Once on the initial crit, and again on the demon crit.
3) The potential top-end demon crit rank (before crit randomization) is less than the initial crit rank.
If one or both of the above is true, I would absolutely not endorse this spell. And if one or both of the above is true, can we [the GS community] continue engaging in dialogue with the GS staff to reach an agreement?
-- dan/gnimble
>The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again. -Strath
Even if the demon crit has a potential top-end crit rank equal to the resultant crit from the initial hit (after crit randomization on the initial hit) and then subject to another round of randomization, then I would be exceptionally concerned about the effectiveness of demons with balefire; two rounds of randomization would position the demon crit to a place of comedy. Furthermore, the demon crit seems to be worse than two rounds of randomization. Given the posted example, if the initial crit rank was 4, it would be impossible to get a demon crit of 1 with crit randomization; the spread would be 4, 3, and 2. I can only guess, the crit padding the jungle trolls has applied to the initial crit AND to the demon crit, which creates a double-dip effect. If this is also the case, then anything that has crit padding (quite a few creatures actually have crit padding after analyzing thousands of melee AS/DS resolutions and controlling for Dexterity Bonus) makes the demon crit is even more comical.
Except! You said a rank 1 from an initial rank 4 is possible, which leads me to believe the potential top-end crit rank is actually less than the initial crit rank. Given crit randomization, for this case (initial rank 4 to demon rank 1) to work, the potential demon top-end crit rank must be no less than 2 ranks below the initial crit (rank 2) to achieve a rank 1 after randomization.
Is my understanding of the demon crit component of Balefire correct?
1) The demon crit is subject to Crit Randomization.
2) Crit Padding triggers twice on the creature. Once on the initial crit, and again on the demon crit.
3) The potential top-end demon crit rank (before crit randomization) is less than the initial crit rank.
If one or both of the above is true, I would absolutely not endorse this spell. And if one or both of the above is true, can we [the GS community] continue engaging in dialogue with the GS staff to reach an agreement?
-- dan/gnimble
i have a concern that since your demon must have mana, this would restrict the types of balefire flares to a lesser number of demons...
When i buy a runestaff and put a rune on it, i'm still not guarenteed to summon a demon that can accept mana, and i'm particular to the aishan besides.
Wouldn't it be neat to see an aishen use those razersharp maws for something? I don't mind the idea of spending an extra 2 mana to see the damage done, but must it come from a mana sending type of demon?
When i buy a runestaff and put a rune on it, i'm still not guarenteed to summon a demon that can accept mana, and i'm particular to the aishan besides.
Wouldn't it be neat to see an aishen use those razersharp maws for something? I don't mind the idea of spending an extra 2 mana to see the damage done, but must it come from a mana sending type of demon?
>I dont care what anyone else says, I want greater demons in 750. level-scaled (but slightly stronger than you) abyran'ra, vathors, et al.
>I refuse to give up on the spell.
We once had minor pain and major pain. We once had break limb and limb disruption.
We don't anymore. Why? Because you don't need 2 spell slots to do 1 thing.
Greater demons can be added to 725. We don't need to sacrifice a spell slot to get them. Just rename 725 to "Demon Summoning" and work the thresholds/requires until something is acceptable.
>I refuse to give up on the spell.
We once had minor pain and major pain. We once had break limb and limb disruption.
We don't anymore. Why? Because you don't need 2 spell slots to do 1 thing.
Greater demons can be added to 725. We don't need to sacrifice a spell slot to get them. Just rename 725 to "Demon Summoning" and work the thresholds/requires until something is acceptable.
>(Combat advantages have to be considered separately.)
Initial reasoning is that sorcerers would called when demons are loose. I feel that we need some sort of profession-based combat advantage over demons and this spell could allow it. Justify it however you want; that's not the issue.
other ball spells in the game do extra damage/flares to certain types of creatures, I think balefire should be the same way. the code structure is already there for it.
~Moredin
Initial reasoning is that sorcerers would called when demons are loose. I feel that we need some sort of profession-based combat advantage over demons and this spell could allow it. Justify it however you want; that's not the issue.
other ball spells in the game do extra damage/flares to certain types of creatures, I think balefire should be the same way. the code structure is already there for it.
~Moredin
After review of the DF behind Balefire, I feel horribly underwhelmed by the spell. Ball spells are bad enough, yet we're told it has the highest DF of any ball spell. That was the carrot, or I should say, the red herring which allowed us to overlook the implementation of the demon. Now that the demon implementation seems to be less than desirable we turn to the DF of the spell with what little we're given.
Analyzing the post of Strath shows Balefire has a .325 DF on AsG 12, WITH 50 ranks of Demonology as Strath stated, resulting in a base DF on AsG 12 of .275. Fire Spirit (111) has a DF of .270 on AsG 12. So, the carrot turns out to be quite the let down. On AsG 12, Balefire has less than 2% better DF than 111.
I know I'm jumping the gun and forming conclusions without being able to construct the DF table for the other armor groups, but so far, my excitement for Balefire has diminished entirely.
-- dan/gnimble
Analyzing the post of Strath shows Balefire has a .325 DF on AsG 12, WITH 50 ranks of Demonology as Strath stated, resulting in a base DF on AsG 12 of .275. Fire Spirit (111) has a DF of .270 on AsG 12. So, the carrot turns out to be quite the let down. On AsG 12, Balefire has less than 2% better DF than 111.
I know I'm jumping the gun and forming conclusions without being able to construct the DF table for the other armor groups, but so far, my excitement for Balefire has diminished entirely.
-- dan/gnimble
I think your expectations are too high.
The demon is a bonus effect, for those who can have demons. Early on a sorcerer will not have a demon, but still be able to use this spell.
Simply put, its a ball spell with the highest possible DF out of all ball spells... it is better then fire spirit and allows a sorcerer to train in a sorcerous lore instead of spiritual lore for a good spell effect, which in turn is also better for the sorcerer because of the effect the lore will have overall.
if you have a demon, good for you, you get a little cherry on top.
I think the spell is fairly well balanced. It isn't going to be the best option for every sorcerer out there. It may not even be used by certain sorcerers based on their training. But I definitely don't see it as a bad concept or design as presented by Strath.
If you are focusing on the demon as the major part of the spell's implementation, you are looking at it backwards.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
The demon is a bonus effect, for those who can have demons. Early on a sorcerer will not have a demon, but still be able to use this spell.
Simply put, its a ball spell with the highest possible DF out of all ball spells... it is better then fire spirit and allows a sorcerer to train in a sorcerous lore instead of spiritual lore for a good spell effect, which in turn is also better for the sorcerer because of the effect the lore will have overall.
if you have a demon, good for you, you get a little cherry on top.
I think the spell is fairly well balanced. It isn't going to be the best option for every sorcerer out there. It may not even be used by certain sorcerers based on their training. But I definitely don't see it as a bad concept or design as presented by Strath.
If you are focusing on the demon as the major part of the spell's implementation, you are looking at it backwards.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
Armor Group 3 (scale):
Balefire (713): DF .275 (AvDs 45/43/41/39)
Major Acid (1710): DF .275 (AvDs 45/43/41/39)
Fire Spirit (111): DF .270 (AvDs 50/48/46/44)
Because of Fire Spirit's superior AvDs the minimum ER for the raw damage from Balefire to equal that of Fire Spirit is 370.
Balefire: ER success margin 270 * .275 = 74.25 raw damage
Fire Spirit: ER success margin 275 * .270 = 74.25 raw damage
Mark
Balefire (713): DF .275 (AvDs 45/43/41/39)
Major Acid (1710): DF .275 (AvDs 45/43/41/39)
Fire Spirit (111): DF .270 (AvDs 50/48/46/44)
Because of Fire Spirit's superior AvDs the minimum ER for the raw damage from Balefire to equal that of Fire Spirit is 370.
Balefire: ER success margin 270 * .275 = 74.25 raw damage
Fire Spirit: ER success margin 275 * .270 = 74.25 raw damage
Mark
>>reread my posts, paying particular attention to my post 6727.
casual observer of what?
I thought I pretty clearly stated what I meant, and my post was specifically in response to your 6727 post.
>>Now that the demon implementation seems to be less than desirable we turn to the DF of the spell with what little we're given.
the demon is just a bonus, you shouldn't expect the spell to be anymore head-and-shoulders above all the other ball spells, it already is that.
what part of this are you missing?
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
casual observer of what?
I thought I pretty clearly stated what I meant, and my post was specifically in response to your 6727 post.
>>Now that the demon implementation seems to be less than desirable we turn to the DF of the spell with what little we're given.
the demon is just a bonus, you shouldn't expect the spell to be anymore head-and-shoulders above all the other ball spells, it already is that.
what part of this are you missing?
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
>>Because of Fire Spirit's superior AvDs the minimum ER for the raw damage from Balefire to equal that of Fire Spirit is 370.
except Balefire uses the plasma crit table... which is superior to fire in most regards, if not all.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
except Balefire uses the plasma crit table... which is superior to fire in most regards, if not all.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
>Because of Fire Spirit's superior AvDs the minimum ER for the raw damage from Balefire to equal that of Fire Spirit is 370.
Given this fact (thanks, Mark), perhaps a slight uptweak of the DF is in order?
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
Given this fact (thanks, Mark), perhaps a slight uptweak of the DF is in order?
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
>I thought I pretty clearly stated what I meant, and my post was specifically in response to your 6727 post.
>the demon is just a bonus, you shouldn't expect the spell to be anymore head-and-shoulders above all the other ball spells, it already is that.
>what part of this are you missing?
I'll try again. I must warn you, I'm going to jump a few of the foundational steps.
1) It takes a 370 outcome (270 success margin) to overcome the AvD of 111. [.270x + 5*.275 = .275x] x = 270 + 100 for Success Margin.
2) No sorc is going to have 370 outcomes with Bolt/Ball AS vs like level opponents, or, if you prefer, with such a low frequency it approaches nil.
3) Therefore, it is NOT "already better," in terms of Raw Damage dealt; Balefire is actually WORSE than 111 and 908 (significantly worse than 908 for mana cost).
Now that we've shown how the sorcerer is actually paying more for less, we'll move to your second point: the demon.
4) SIMU Staff has said the strength of spells between circles, all other things being equal (I understand overall strength of the spell circle must be taken into account when balancing a single new spell within it), should be Professional > Major > Minor.
5) 713 is in the Sorcerer Circle.
6) 111 is in the Minor Spiritual Circle.
7) The demon is necessary to put the spell in its rightful place of, let's call it, "balance."
Of course, if it were that easy, we'd call it a day.
However, the demon is, by all accounts (n=1), bad; it's not even mediocre. It also requires training AND mana to even trigger; mana, which could be shared to the sorcerer. So, we have a 15 mana spell (if the demon triggers!) for something we could already find in the Minor Spirit Circle.
Make sense?
-- dan/gnimble
>the demon is just a bonus, you shouldn't expect the spell to be anymore head-and-shoulders above all the other ball spells, it already is that.
>what part of this are you missing?
I'll try again. I must warn you, I'm going to jump a few of the foundational steps.
1) It takes a 370 outcome (270 success margin) to overcome the AvD of 111. [.270x + 5*.275 = .275x] x = 270 + 100 for Success Margin.
2) No sorc is going to have 370 outcomes with Bolt/Ball AS vs like level opponents, or, if you prefer, with such a low frequency it approaches nil.
3) Therefore, it is NOT "already better," in terms of Raw Damage dealt; Balefire is actually WORSE than 111 and 908 (significantly worse than 908 for mana cost).
Now that we've shown how the sorcerer is actually paying more for less, we'll move to your second point: the demon.
4) SIMU Staff has said the strength of spells between circles, all other things being equal (I understand overall strength of the spell circle must be taken into account when balancing a single new spell within it), should be Professional > Major > Minor.
5) 713 is in the Sorcerer Circle.
6) 111 is in the Minor Spiritual Circle.
7) The demon is necessary to put the spell in its rightful place of, let's call it, "balance."
Of course, if it were that easy, we'd call it a day.
However, the demon is, by all accounts (n=1), bad; it's not even mediocre. It also requires training AND mana to even trigger; mana, which could be shared to the sorcerer. So, we have a 15 mana spell (if the demon triggers!) for something we could already find in the Minor Spirit Circle.
Make sense?
-- dan/gnimble
My main point was that it uses the plasma crit table... which is significantly better in respects to that it has a better chance of death crits if it hits the right location on something. So not only does the initial damage have a better chance to outright kill, the splash effects do as well. Add a demon doing extra damage and you have THREE different damage sources from one cast. Not too shabby!
But yes, I see the DF comparison shows them being about equal as far as raw damage goes. I'm not sure that really needs any tweaking tho... since you are less dependent on spiritual lore and have the option to focus more on demonic lore for the same benefit to DF with a ball spell.
I think you have to look at things like this... are you going to use this as a main hunting spell or will it be situational? Do you really think it needs to be so much better over the existing ball spells to make it a staple hunting spell, or is its intention to be a once-in-awhile use when you have to deal with multiple critters.
I am not saying your points are invalid, I am simply saying that I disagree that the spell needs to be improved over its current proposal. You are more then welcome to disagree, however, since I respect your opinion. I'd prefer to keep the discussion civil, if we were at all moving towards a direction otherwise.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
But yes, I see the DF comparison shows them being about equal as far as raw damage goes. I'm not sure that really needs any tweaking tho... since you are less dependent on spiritual lore and have the option to focus more on demonic lore for the same benefit to DF with a ball spell.
I think you have to look at things like this... are you going to use this as a main hunting spell or will it be situational? Do you really think it needs to be so much better over the existing ball spells to make it a staple hunting spell, or is its intention to be a once-in-awhile use when you have to deal with multiple critters.
I am not saying your points are invalid, I am simply saying that I disagree that the spell needs to be improved over its current proposal. You are more then welcome to disagree, however, since I respect your opinion. I'd prefer to keep the discussion civil, if we were at all moving towards a direction otherwise.
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
