>I think you have to look at things like this... are you going to use this as a main hunting spell or will it be situational? <Fremie>

What makes you think this shouldn't be designed with the intent of a staple hunting spell in mind? Sorcerers have been clamoring for a professional bolt spell for ages...they finally get one, and there's little (or worse, negative!) motivation to use it over 111.

Of the sorcerous lores, necromancy is currently more popular than demonology. I'm pretty sure this is because of the greater mechanical advantages (or at least the greater perceived advantages).

Besides demo/necro, sorcerers also train in summoning lore. I don't see sorcerers flocking to demonology lore over this spell; the benefits of Summoning lore are many.

Plasma may be a more impressive crit table than fire, but it's also a little harder to achieve the same level of crit because of AvD imbalances. Further, with GoS warcamps now a factor, fire is more popular than it's ever been before (yay trolls!).

I was excited when this was first presented, but I have to agree with Dan, I'm no longer really enamored of this spell in any mechanical way. The flavor is still good, but that could be said for plenty of spells in the game that I find lackluster and not worth using.

For the highest mana ball spell in the game, in a pure professional circle, it should have a notably higher DF compared to 111/908/1710.

~ Lumi

Bottom line, Oscuro vigorously defended this spell because of its damaging power over other Ball Bolt spells. It has been shown this damaging power is inferior to Fire Spirit unless achieving endrolls in the 300's. I've a feeling this spell was proposed in a somewhat different form, atleast using different numbers, and then was brow beat down due to complaints of it being OP. Just a guess, but from the response i've seen from staff, it wouldn't surprise me.

Please take a look at the numbers this spell is producing and make it a worthwhile addition to the circle. Thank you to both Mark/Riltus and Gnimble for pointing out these problems with the spell damage.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

ASPEN

And yes, we just got told that 225 doesn't have sickness because major > minor.

Please provide me with a link showing where this was stated. As far I know, I'm the only GameMaster who's posted on the topic and no where in my post do I make a Minor vs. Major spell circle comparison.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=8&topic=3&message=48009

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

Evarin and his Mis'ri

If that isn't balancing a spell due to its place on a MINOR circle versus a MAJOR circle, I don't know what is.

Then you don't know what is. The problem is with the number of professions that have access to the circle, not because it has Minor circle status. That's completely different than saying one spell is weaker/more powerful because it has a different circle status. Your inference from my statement also fails when you evaluate the Major Elemental and Wizard circles since they both only have one profession, yet different statuses.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

A second too late to stave off the pointlessness. See above, Estild.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

nevermind that it has been stated numerous times that order of powers goes professional>major>minor. Unless, Estild, you wish to make the point that that is not the case in regards to the 700s, only say, the 300s?

Not by you, but by numerous GMs over many years has this been stated.

Furthermore it is reflected in myriad game mechanics that are related to spell rarity or ease of access, charge costs, costs in edibles, etc etc etc.

Is this a rule that is only used when convenient?

I also, have always maintained, that because as a profession we have 2 minor circles, which by definition must be lacking in power compared to what other pures have (major circles), to at all balance the pure professions the 700s must, in fact, be the most powerful professional spell circle, making it the most powerful in the entire game as such.

Spirit Guide can be ACCESSED by many different professions. Used? No.

Warriors with 130 trained? Lets be generous and say 5.
Rogues? with 130 trained? Oh, why not. 10? in the whole game active today.
Paladins? Lets say 15.
Rangers. Lets go nuts and say 30!

So, next to no squares, a few near-capped Paladins, and a smatering of Rangers, use of the spell boils down to three professions: Clerics, Empaths, and Sorcerers.

Transference is used by 2 professions: Clerics and Empaths.

Do you notice the overlap? Even the argument when applied to Transportation spells is utterly pointless.

I'm glad you guys agree with us on Balefire, though.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

Evarin and his Mis'ri

So, next to no squares, a few near-capped Paladins, and a smatering of Rangers, use of the spell boils down to three professions: Clerics, Empaths, and Sorcerers.

Do you notice the overlap? Even the argument when applied to Transportation spells is utterly pointless.

Just because Pures have easier and earlier access to Spirit Guide does not mean they're the only ones who use the spell. You freely admit this with your estimated numbers.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

Spirit Guide also requires no other Development Point cost; any bolt/ball spell requires a substantial investment in the Aimed Spells skill, or it's useless.

Using your same professional comparison, I'm sure that there are gobs of Fighters & Rogues, and many (like "many many many") Paladins and Rangers who have access to Fire Spirit (it being an 11th level spell and all)...
...virtually none of whom actually use it. Because they're busy smashing beasties with their weapons, not using Aimed Spells.
(Yes, I am willing to grant that there are likely to be a vanishingly small number of people who actually train in it, and of course there's always "light up the area-Web" usage, but the people [Fighter, Thief, Paladin, Ranger] who use it as an attack spell is going to be miniscule.)

.

.

Consider if you will the fact that GM Bardon (you know: the writer of the game) was heard at a gathering to say that, "No Semi will ever shoot a spell gap," [i.e. "learn a spell higher than 20th level"]. When that sort of training was expected, putting a globally-useful spell like Word of Return/Spirit Guide up in the 30th level spot probably made all kinds of sense.

Now we have, not just Semis but pure arms users, who are doing it. Not many, sure... but some.

The spell is ubiquitous: only Bards & Wizards cannot cast it (and soon, Savants). Expect it to be less "special" than a, well, special spell like Traveller's Song or Familiar Gate or Planar Shift or whatnot.

dan/gnimble

False.

Care to bet?

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

Doug

So, said differently, the base DF in the example is .325, and demon lore will add to that, Estlid?

It's not really my place to comment and I'm not sure of all the details (since it's subject to and will change during the design process), as this is Strathspey's project. However, the calculated DF is the base amount without lore.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

Great clarification, Estlid -- I hope we can all appreciate that the spell is in design phase and may change. The information, however, is very useful, I believe.

Doug

are you saying, exactly, that the DF for 713 vs AG 3 is .325

If this is correct, then it looks an appropriate DF for a 13th level, professional circle, ball spell


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Note: try.


Nick

Note: Sorcery


Nick
:D

>Note: Ebon Gate...

I lol'd.

---

-- dantastic

Hi, there. Remember me? Sorry for dropping out of sight like that.

I failed to mention last time that during those first few initial tests that I posted, I had forgotten to turn on the DF increase for demon lore. Or rather, I had forgotten to actually build the switch and THEN turn it on. But now it's on and everything's better. I'm still checking numbers and making sure secondary shots are drilling through that pesky armor when they're supposed to.

Another thing to note is that aishan...don't have a mana battery. Knowing that, we had already come up with a nifty new ability for aishan that other demons won't have.

Looks like discussion was lively while I was out. I'll be catching up on reading and making any necessary comments tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow. What could possibly go wrong? ::dramatic chord::

And now, the stuff I promised.

---

Level 23, 15 demon ranks

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +64 = +124
... and hit for 18 points of damage!
Light burns to the rotting woodsman's leg.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 25 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the rotting woodsman's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +85 = +145
... and hit for 28 points of damage!
Burst of brilliant energy to head stuns the rotting woodsman for an instant.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 15 points of damage!
The rotting woodsman's hand blisters and bleeds from intense heat.

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +53 = +113
... and hit for 11 points of damage!
Light burns to the rotting woodsman's head.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 15 points of damage!
Searing blast of energy to hip spins the rotting woodsman around!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a rotting woodsman.
... 5 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the rotting woodsman's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a rotting woodsman.
... 25 points of damage!
Intense beam of plasma shears away large chunks of the rotting woodsman's forearm!
.
.
.
.
Level 20, 20 demon ranks

You gesture at a wood wight.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a wood wight!
AS: +143 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +65 = +196
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
The wood wight is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a wood wight, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the wood wight's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 15 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the wood wight's stomach leaving painful red streaks.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 15 points of damage!
Light burns to the wood wight's leg.

You gesture at a wood wight.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a wood wight!
AS: +143 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +12 = +143
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across the wood wight's chest!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a wood wight, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 20 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the wood wight's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 5 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the wood wight's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the wood wight's hand.
.
.
.
.
Level 55, 55 demon ranks, 55 EMC, 55 SMC

You gesture at a nightmare steed.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a nightmare steed!
AS: +223 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +79 = +156
... and hit for 27 points of damage!
Intense blast to the nightmare steed's eyelid causes it to sizzle and pop.
The nightmare steed is stunned!
A short silver grey grik'mlar shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your silver grey grik'mlar loses 2 mana.)
... 10 points of damage!
Jarring blow to the nightmare steed's back.

You gesture at a nightmare steed.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a nightmare steed!
AS: +223 vs DS: +182 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +80 = +160
... and hit for 28 points of damage!
Blistering strike to leg shrivels skin and causes excruciating pain.
A short silver grey grik'mlar shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your silver grey grik'mlar loses 2 mana.)
... 15 points of damage!
Patches of flesh removed from right hand.
.
.
.
.
Level 81, 100 demon ranks, 90 EMC, 90 SMC

You gesture at a csetairi.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a csetairi!
AS: +365 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +80 = +268
... and hit for 88 points of damage!
Intense beam of plasma shears away large chunks of the csetairi's forearm!
The csetairi is stunned!
A twitchy grey arashan shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey arashan loses 2 mana.)
... 40 points of damage!
The csetairi stunned by strike to hand.
It is knocked to the ground!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a csetairi, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 25 points of damage!
Stunning blast of plasma reduces the csetairi's nose to a blackened stump.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the csetairi's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 15 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the csetairi's stomach leaving painful red streaks.

You gesture at a csetairi.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a csetairi!
AS: +365 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +56 = +244
... and hit for 93 points of damage!
Vicious beam of energy rips open the csetairi's back!
The csetairi is stunned!
A twitchy grey arashan shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey arashan loses 2 mana.)
... 25 points of damage!
Just like a brick to the head, without the imprint.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a csetairi, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the csetairi's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 25 points of damage!
The csetairi is stunned!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to the csetairi's weapon arm.
.
.
.
.

Level 26, 10 demon ranks

You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +162 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +85 = +195
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg!
The jungle troll is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 20 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 5 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's shield arm.

You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +162 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +18 = +128
... and hit for 14 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's shield arm.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's weapon arm.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.
.
.
.
.

Level 89, 120 demon ranks, 100 EMC+SMC
(yeah, Illoke...Tiqal suggested them)

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +23 = +248
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Skin roasted away from back exposing the Illoke jarl's spinal column!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Tendons in the Illoke jarl's weapon arm snap.

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +154 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +10 = +229
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Stunning blast of plasma reduces the Illoke jarl's nose to a blackened stump.
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
The Illoke jarl's finger twitches, then explodes.

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +129 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = +343
... and hit for 115 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the Illoke jarl's leg to explode!
The Illoke jarl is knocked to the ground!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 40 points of damage!
Over exposure to hot steam leaves neck feeling stiff.
.
.
.
.

Level 100, 80 demon ranks, 120 EMC+SMC

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +368 vs DS: +253 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +67 = +194
... and hit for 40 points of damage!
Nasty strike to the left eye causes it to dim a moment.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +368 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +40 = +181
... and hit for 39 points of damage!
Glancing blow to the stomach.
Good thing it won't be eating soon.

Subject to user error, this should be the approximate base Damage Factors (unmodified by Sorcerous Lore, Demonology ranks) for Balefire. Lore ranks will increase the DFs .001 per rank for ranks 1 to 50, .001 per two ranks for ranks 51 to 100 and .001 per four ranks for ranks greater than 100. With 200 ranks the total damage factor increase is .100

EXAMPLE:

Level 89, 120 demon ranks, 100 EMC+SMC
(yeah, Illoke...Tiqal suggested them)

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +23 = +248
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Skin roasted away from back exposing the Illoke jarl's spinal column!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Tendons in the Illoke jarl's weapon arm snap.

Endroll success margin: 148
Base damage factor vs chain: .310
DF lore bonus: .080 [120 ranks (.050 ranks 1 to 50) + (.025 ranks 51 to 100) + (.005 ranks 101 to 120)]
Modified damage factor: .390
Raw damage: 58 (.390 * 148)
Crit damage: 25 (rank 5 plasma back critical)
Total damage: 83

There is also 20 additional points of damage and a rank 2, right arm, disruption critical from the demon's presence. Lorae'tyr: randomly either steam or disruption damage



.
.

ARMOR GROUP:		CLOTH		LEATHER		SCALE		CHAIN		PLATE
AvDs:		65		55/54/53/52		45/43/41/39		38/34/30/26		30/24/18/12
DFs:		.440		.360		.325		.310		.295

Mark

I suggest that a demon release to coincide with Balefire would be an architype which would allow us to set the flare amongst all of those possible. Summon difficulty equal to that of Abyran'ra(sa?).

Also, on a tangent, it would be awesome to tie in the demon's extra damage contribution to Cloak of Shadows with enough lore.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri

Though it seems this isn't a popular use of mechanics, perhaps you could unlock additional thresholds of demon damage via advanced training in demonology. By this suggestion I mean either...

A. After rank 100, each rank increases the upper range of possible crits for the demon.

OR

B. If you are 1.X-2x Demonology, you gain an ever increasing upper range of possible crits for the demon.

---

Evarin and his Mis'ri