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Balefire sounds exciting. It also sounds like a fairly involved development project. I looked over the earlier posts in this thread and made a to do list:
* Combine 713 and 715 (see post 6605).
* Address Sorcerer bolt AS disparity (see post 6605, last paragraph).
* Implement new ability for Aishan demons (see post 6948).
* Update critters for BFing (see post 6958).
* Update treasure system to include Balefire on scrolls and decide if it will be in regular treasure wands (see post 6717).
Did I forget anything? Oh, yes...
* Code the new Balefire spell, which I'm sure could be broken down into many sub-steps, not the least of which will be the new crit table.
FYI, Balefire is listed in the 2011 goals. See the full list here:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=1&topic=1&message=2466
I tried to summarize the scope of the Balefire project in this post:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=7018
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=1&topic=1&message=2466
I tried to summarize the scope of the Balefire project in this post:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=7018
Hey Strathspey, I've been poking around with the spell in the test instance, but I have yet to see it splash. This character is fully doubled in spell aiming and singled in demonology, so I'd think I'd see something, yes? I've had a verlok'asha with me while testing, and I have seen him help with the casts, but I've yet to see splash damage.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
No changes since then. I'm satisfied that the spell has reached it's final state, barring any bugs of course. The reason why it hasn't already been released is because there was a bundle of other stuff we wanted to release at the same time as 713, and I haven't been satisfied yet with the way that's been going. And that's been my fault.
-Strath
-Strath
>>You know the M&M's christmas commercial with the M&Ms seeing Santa and saying "He does exist." Then feinting?<<
M&Ms know combat maneuvers?? Wow! But why would they want to feint Santa? Were they planning on attacking him? And do they know other CMs?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
M&Ms know combat maneuvers?? Wow! But why would they want to feint Santa? Were they planning on attacking him? And do they know other CMs?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
I don't have any of the logs, but I can tell you that:
1) The AvD seems to be just under (by 5?) that of Major Fire. I have no idea about the DF, but seems pretty potent.
2) The demon additional crits (I've seen two additional crits to the main target from the demon, in addition to subsequent splashes) are a hoot to watch.
3) A sorcerer purposefully maxed out to test the upper end of the spell blew Dionket's head to smithereens, immediately killing him -- even through his armor.
I suspect that the spell is positioned to be a 'growth' spell -- useful at a moderate age, but incredibly powerful in later stages in the hands of a sorcerer trained (heavily) in the right skills. If I recall, I was seeing secondary criticals (after the initial blast) that were in the 30 to 80 point range (warning, variability due to training -- upper end requires strong initial crit and heavy training), and in one unusual (and not totally maxed) case, the spell took two limbs and shattered a third. Not necessarily the norm, but certainly amusing to witness.
Doug
1) The AvD seems to be just under (by 5?) that of Major Fire. I have no idea about the DF, but seems pretty potent.
2) The demon additional crits (I've seen two additional crits to the main target from the demon, in addition to subsequent splashes) are a hoot to watch.
3) A sorcerer purposefully maxed out to test the upper end of the spell blew Dionket's head to smithereens, immediately killing him -- even through his armor.
I suspect that the spell is positioned to be a 'growth' spell -- useful at a moderate age, but incredibly powerful in later stages in the hands of a sorcerer trained (heavily) in the right skills. If I recall, I was seeing secondary criticals (after the initial blast) that were in the 30 to 80 point range (warning, variability due to training -- upper end requires strong initial crit and heavy training), and in one unusual (and not totally maxed) case, the spell took two limbs and shattered a third. Not necessarily the norm, but certainly amusing to witness.
Doug
Heeh, reminds me of an old song...
Hey Father Christmas
give us the money!
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Hey Father Christmas
give us the money!
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ok, so help remind me here. . . I've slept since the last time this rolled around.
This AS disparity is comprised of
-- the sorcerer's hybrid status with effect to 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
Leaving sorcerers overall (at cap and trained to 100 in appropriate spell circles) something on the order of 75 to 85 points below empaths and wizards respectively.
Leaving aside any discussions at all about 'who should oughta be bestest' in anything, for now, is that a ballpark summary of the AS issue for Bolt Spells (which will exist, happily, because of this additional spell)? Did I forget anything major?
Doug
This AS disparity is comprised of
-- the sorcerer's hybrid status with effect to 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
Leaving sorcerers overall (at cap and trained to 100 in appropriate spell circles) something on the order of 75 to 85 points below empaths and wizards respectively.
Leaving aside any discussions at all about 'who should oughta be bestest' in anything, for now, is that a ballpark summary of the AS issue for Bolt Spells (which will exist, happily, because of this additional spell)? Did I forget anything major?
Doug
You are absolutely right! Thanks!
So, amend to read:
-- the sorcerer's hybrid status with effect to 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
-- the cleric's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 307
Leaving sorcerers overall (at cap and trained to 100 in appropriate spell circles) something on the order of 75 to 85 points below empaths, clerics and wizards respectively.
Anything else?
Doug
So, amend to read:
-- the sorcerer's hybrid status with effect to 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
-- the cleric's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 307
Leaving sorcerers overall (at cap and trained to 100 in appropriate spell circles) something on the order of 75 to 85 points below empaths, clerics and wizards respectively.
Anything else?
Doug
You could throw in the argument that a CoL sorc gets more AS than a Voln cleric, like someone tried to do at one point.
That's a dumb argument, though, so I wouldn't bother.
On a serious note, you forgot the AS bonus that wizards have from 425. It looks like you did use it for AS calculations, but forgot to mention it in the bulletized list.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
That's a dumb argument, though, so I wouldn't bother.
On a serious note, you forgot the AS bonus that wizards have from 425. It looks like you did use it for AS calculations, but forgot to mention it in the bulletized list.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
Not understanding you, then. Sorcs get the same AS bonus from 425 that wizards do. Max 50 bonus at 75 ranks of 400. The CS bonus for sorc spells is half of the CS bonus for wizards spells, however, but the AS bonus is not affected.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
In terms of absolute maximized bonuses...
Please take note this is just a quick glance and may not be 100% accurate... Also, for 215, this is absolutely maximum, meaning 200 ranks of blessing lore (can empaths 2x?).
There is no perceived gap, there is one... But honestly... Since when do Sorcerers use bolts, when their main focus for spells are CS based.
~Athias (Platinum)
| Spell | Cleric | Wizard | Empath | Sorcerer |
| 211 | 15 | - | 15 | - |
| 215 | 45 | - | 45 | - |
| 307 | 51 | - | - | - |
| 425 | - | 50 | - | 50 |
| 513 | - | 63 | - | - |
| 1130 | - | - | 55 | - |
| Total | 111 | 113 | 115 | 50 |
Please take note this is just a quick glance and may not be 100% accurate... Also, for 215, this is absolutely maximum, meaning 200 ranks of blessing lore (can empaths 2x?).
There is no perceived gap, there is one... But honestly... Since when do Sorcerers use bolts, when their main focus for spells are CS based.
~Athias (Platinum)
I think I understand what you're suggesting, Taakh. You're right, I think I was still of the impression that 425 was halved for sorcerers -- something that was corrected a bit ago.
But what you're saying if I list 425, I need to add it to wizards as well. . . If that's correct, then viola!
Amended to read:
-- the sorcerer's ability to generate AS increase with 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 425 and 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
-- the cleric's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 307
I haven't put in 117 for this discussion due to its lack of duration.
Anything else?
Doug
But what you're saying if I list 425, I need to add it to wizards as well. . . If that's correct, then viola!
Amended to read:
-- the sorcerer's ability to generate AS increase with 425
-- the wizard's ability to generate AS increase with 425 and 513
-- the empath's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 1130
-- the cleric's ability to generate AS increase with 211, 215 and 307
I haven't put in 117 for this discussion due to its lack of duration.
Anything else?
Doug
>But honestly... Since when do Sorcerers use bolts, when their main focus for spells are CS based. - Athias
Did you miss the part where a new bolt spell in the 700 circle, Balefire has just been released in the test instance, prior to live release in GS4? ;-)
That's what the thread is about!
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Did you miss the part where a new bolt spell in the 700 circle, Balefire has just been released in the test instance, prior to live release in GS4? ;-)
That's what the thread is about!
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Nice summary, Athias.
I wasn't bringing lores into the discussion, though, just yet. I think there's a fundamental question that needs to be asked before that.
The whole point of the discussion is the pending release of a sorcerous bolt (ball) spell -- Balefire.
The discrepancy (which I hopefully haven't alluded to as perceived, recently) is causing concern if a profession spell that relies on the AS bolt / ball mechanics get released.
We haven't heard a lot about the AS side, yet and I don't recall seeing anything special about it -- but I wasn't looking specifically, either.
For the (separate?) AS spell, I'm hoping to sort out the following --
1) Bonus status (without lores)
2) Spell availability (profession / scroll / item)
3) Supplemental ability (increase per 513, or per 307?)
4) Affect of lores
5) Or, alternatively to most of the above -- will (or are presently) all bolt / ball spells going against the same DS -- an example, I seem to recall select ball / bolt spells 'ignoring' certain spheres for calculating DS. I don't recall if all these were cleaned up -- and I don't know that I would advocate this approach for this spell. . . but I think it warrants brief discussion. DS decrease ('pushdown') is pretty much the same as AS increase, in a number of cases.
The key questions are -- to me -- spell availability and supplemental availability. I think bonus total (or DS 'offset'), and lores implementation are fairly 'given'.
Specifically, the bonus (or offset) needs to be 40 to 50, depending on lore bonus capabilities inclusion. Lores for sorcery are fraught with traps -- avoiding them would be good, I think personally -- but there will be discussions about investment and how best to capitalize on that, I'm sure.
The other two -- spell and supplemental availability are important, to me. So I'm working to establish the common ground in order to move past it.
Doug
I wasn't bringing lores into the discussion, though, just yet. I think there's a fundamental question that needs to be asked before that.
The whole point of the discussion is the pending release of a sorcerous bolt (ball) spell -- Balefire.
The discrepancy (which I hopefully haven't alluded to as perceived, recently) is causing concern if a profession spell that relies on the AS bolt / ball mechanics get released.
We haven't heard a lot about the AS side, yet and I don't recall seeing anything special about it -- but I wasn't looking specifically, either.
For the (separate?) AS spell, I'm hoping to sort out the following --
1) Bonus status (without lores)
2) Spell availability (profession / scroll / item)
3) Supplemental ability (increase per 513, or per 307?)
4) Affect of lores
5) Or, alternatively to most of the above -- will (or are presently) all bolt / ball spells going against the same DS -- an example, I seem to recall select ball / bolt spells 'ignoring' certain spheres for calculating DS. I don't recall if all these were cleaned up -- and I don't know that I would advocate this approach for this spell. . . but I think it warrants brief discussion. DS decrease ('pushdown') is pretty much the same as AS increase, in a number of cases.
The key questions are -- to me -- spell availability and supplemental availability. I think bonus total (or DS 'offset'), and lores implementation are fairly 'given'.
Specifically, the bonus (or offset) needs to be 40 to 50, depending on lore bonus capabilities inclusion. Lores for sorcery are fraught with traps -- avoiding them would be good, I think personally -- but there will be discussions about investment and how best to capitalize on that, I'm sure.
The other two -- spell and supplemental availability are important, to me. So I'm working to establish the common ground in order to move past it.
Doug
Double-post apologies.
Like Virilneus, I looked at the "Accidents Happen" event report and adopted a thoughtful pose. Could that possibly presage Balefire... ?
Personally I love the idea of the spell, as after passing level 90 my sorcerer went to a bolt-heavy hunting style and build after getting some magical goodies from other spheres. He did suffer substantially from the AS deficit, and worked around it by Quaking before entering a critter's room and judiciously dispelling targets before blowing them away. But bolting is largely a fun and fairly effective complement to the existing CS arsenal, and finally having a native spell is something to really look forward to.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Like Virilneus, I looked at the "Accidents Happen" event report and adopted a thoughtful pose. Could that possibly presage Balefire... ?
Personally I love the idea of the spell, as after passing level 90 my sorcerer went to a bolt-heavy hunting style and build after getting some magical goodies from other spheres. He did suffer substantially from the AS deficit, and worked around it by Quaking before entering a critter's room and judiciously dispelling targets before blowing them away. But bolting is largely a fun and fairly effective complement to the existing CS arsenal, and finally having a native spell is something to really look forward to.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Two notes:
1st, as has been stated a number of times, potential lore bonuses to AS shouldn't come into the conversation. So, the bonus to 215 from blessing lore doesn't count.
2nd, sorcerers have always used bolts. Well, always in GS4, that is. 118 makes a great disabling bolt and 111 is a good area affect bolt. The problem is that those two bolts are not native to sorcerers, and clerics and empaths both have a native bolt spell, and the wizard has many (and should have many) native bolt spells. Side note: both 306 and 1110 (cleric and empath bolts) are damn good on the DF and AvD scale, compared to like level wizard bolts.
So, this whole discussion about bolt spell AS is from the comments by GMs about the upcoming 713 replacement, and the side note that a fix for sorc bolt AS was also in the works.
And, thanks, I didn't even realize that the Accidents Happen event report could be related to Balefire.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
1st, as has been stated a number of times, potential lore bonuses to AS shouldn't come into the conversation. So, the bonus to 215 from blessing lore doesn't count.
2nd, sorcerers have always used bolts. Well, always in GS4, that is. 118 makes a great disabling bolt and 111 is a good area affect bolt. The problem is that those two bolts are not native to sorcerers, and clerics and empaths both have a native bolt spell, and the wizard has many (and should have many) native bolt spells. Side note: both 306 and 1110 (cleric and empath bolts) are damn good on the DF and AvD scale, compared to like level wizard bolts.
So, this whole discussion about bolt spell AS is from the comments by GMs about the upcoming 713 replacement, and the side note that a fix for sorc bolt AS was also in the works.
And, thanks, I didn't even realize that the Accidents Happen event report could be related to Balefire.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>>Since when do Sorcerers use bolts, when their main focus for spells are CS based.<<
Sorcerers cartainly can use bolts; quite aside from 111 and 118, I use wizard wands frequently in order to help conserve mana. I mean why not? I am already 2x in spell aiming for use with focused implosion.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Sorcerers cartainly can use bolts; quite aside from 111 and 118, I use wizard wands frequently in order to help conserve mana. I mean why not? I am already 2x in spell aiming for use with focused implosion.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>Sorcerers cartainly can use bolts; quite aside from 111 and 118
We light things up like a carton of smokes.
>I use wizard wands frequently in order to help conserve mana. I mean why not? I am already 2x in spell aiming for use with focused implosion.
Cause after a certain point, using wands is sad.
We light things up like a carton of smokes.
>I use wizard wands frequently in order to help conserve mana. I mean why not? I am already 2x in spell aiming for use with focused implosion.
Cause after a certain point, using wands is sad.
| The new spell AS boost is going to top out at +38 with 101 sorcerer spell ranks. |
If my calculations are correct, that puts sorcs at:
+50 from 425 and +38 from xxx for a total of +88
Clerics at +15/+25/+51 (211/215/307) for +91
Wizards at +50/+64 (425/513) for +114
Empuffs at +15/+25/+55 (211/215/1130) for +95
Thats fair, sorcs are still the worst bolters, but not by quite so much anymore, and wizards are still the best bolters.
Notice, I am not counting lores here.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
| The new spell AS boost is going to top out at +38 with 101 sorcerer spell ranks. |
| Spell | Cleric | Wizard | Empath | Sorcerer |
| 211 | 15 | - | 15 | - |
| 215 | 25-45* | - | 25-45* | - |
| 307 | 51 | - | - | - |
| 425 | - | 50 | - | 50 |
| 513 | - | 63 | - | - |
| 1130 | - | - | 55 | - |
| ??? | - | - | - | 38 |
| Total | 91-111 | 113 | 95-115 | 88 |
* Lore Dependent
Personally I think that's pretty good and fair. Also, I'm not sure if 513 caps out at 63 or 64 (any verification).
Obviously wizards aren't exactly hurting when it comes to bolt AS, especially considering 211 is easily obtainable - but I do find it odd that Empaths can theoretically have a higher self-cast bolt AS than wizards (excluding 117). I highly doubt that any Empath in their right mind would get 202 ranks of blessing lore however (can they even double in it?).
~Athias (Platinum)
>The new spell AS boost is going to top out at +38 with 101 sorcerer spell ranks.
Two things.
1. Thank you for posting specifics.
2. This is a slight fail. It means we'll still be the worst. Last place, barely so, but there. It could be stomached if... if... we were first place in other lines... like if we had the best CS spells or something, or I don't know, a good non hunting experience system, the lowest training costs, or the best utility spells. But since we're also LAST in all of those categories. This is a fail. It should be slightly higher, to at least put us until the 90s in total bolt AS bonuses.
Also consider enhancives, something near and dear to my heart. If I want to boost my AS and CS I need dex, spell aiming, aura, and wisdom. A wizard only needs dex, spell aiming, and aura. A cleric only needs dex, spell aiming, and wisdom. Is empath circle a wisdom/inf hybrid? I thought it was just inf? In anycase... this is another niggling hybrid penalty. The point of which is that, in the end, it is easier for pure pures to achieve more combat effectiveness with enhancives, they have one less thing they need to boost.
.... and yes Athias, empaths can double blessing lore. I even know a couple that have well over 100 ranks.
Two things.
1. Thank you for posting specifics.
2. This is a slight fail. It means we'll still be the worst. Last place, barely so, but there. It could be stomached if... if... we were first place in other lines... like if we had the best CS spells or something, or I don't know, a good non hunting experience system, the lowest training costs, or the best utility spells. But since we're also LAST in all of those categories. This is a fail. It should be slightly higher, to at least put us until the 90s in total bolt AS bonuses.
Also consider enhancives, something near and dear to my heart. If I want to boost my AS and CS I need dex, spell aiming, aura, and wisdom. A wizard only needs dex, spell aiming, and aura. A cleric only needs dex, spell aiming, and wisdom. Is empath circle a wisdom/inf hybrid? I thought it was just inf? In anycase... this is another niggling hybrid penalty. The point of which is that, in the end, it is easier for pure pures to achieve more combat effectiveness with enhancives, they have one less thing they need to boost.
.... and yes Athias, empaths can double blessing lore. I even know a couple that have well over 100 ranks.
another thing to consider...
I am fairly confident you guys are implementing my Curse Buffs idea. Because the two spells you're doing are Balefire, and Curse, and somewhere in those two offensive spells we're getting an AS bonus.
You are not giving any specifics on that yet, so I can only use conjecture. But in my original proposal, when using a curse buff, there is a chance to curse yourself. So there is risk to the mere act of spelling up. That added risk might be worth a higher bonus, if indeed it exists.
Just tossing it out there, overall I'm pretty happy. The bonus could have been like 20 or something. And the fact that this is probably based on one of my proposals is gratifying, but I do think the bonus could be slightly higher. 43 is a good number... happens to be the exact amount of additional AS I need to get a big milestone heh.
I am fairly confident you guys are implementing my Curse Buffs idea. Because the two spells you're doing are Balefire, and Curse, and somewhere in those two offensive spells we're getting an AS bonus.
You are not giving any specifics on that yet, so I can only use conjecture. But in my original proposal, when using a curse buff, there is a chance to curse yourself. So there is risk to the mere act of spelling up. That added risk might be worth a higher bonus, if indeed it exists.
Just tossing it out there, overall I'm pretty happy. The bonus could have been like 20 or something. And the fact that this is probably based on one of my proposals is gratifying, but I do think the bonus could be slightly higher. 43 is a good number... happens to be the exact amount of additional AS I need to get a big milestone heh.
