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>I don't even care about being "first" anymore. I'm just tired of constantly competing for last.
EXACTLY!!! Two cookies for Evarin.
I just don't want to be LAST in everything. Though I still think we should be the best CS casters, and maybe one day after a lore review and a new spell like Harbinger, we can get there. But I just don't want to be last.
Like with training. We're last in lore, last in physical, last in utility, second to last (and just barely not last but the slimmest of margins) in core magic. Whereas clerics are first in physical, empaths are first in utility, and wizards are first in magic. IF we can't have a first, how about just not all last places? How about more second places?
I really didn't want us to still be in last in bolt AS, even though the margin will be small. I was hoping for 2nd.
>>Why could that be?
That's simple! Everyone knows that wizards are friendly, kind and benign. All the good qualities of a virtual persona.
Come on! Give me something tough to answer!
On a side note -- did we ever get around to seeing if there were to be a CS specific booster spell in 700's? I don't recall -- which I guess makes that tough for me to answer.
Doug
That's simple! Everyone knows that wizards are friendly, kind and benign. All the good qualities of a virtual persona.
Come on! Give me something tough to answer!
On a side note -- did we ever get around to seeing if there were to be a CS specific booster spell in 700's? I don't recall -- which I guess makes that tough for me to answer.
Doug
For those who want a quick summary, the following skills will affect Balefire, as tentatively described by Strathspey.
Spell Aiming: Obviously.
Demonology Lore: (a) increases damage, and (b) increases maximum number of splash targets. Indirectly, Demonology Lore benefits Balefire by increasing the duration of Minor Demon Summoning and the amount of mana a minor demon can hold.
Elemental Mana Control: increases the probability that your minor demon will use its stored mana to contribute damage to the initial strike. See post 6605, as updated by post 6717, for details. If you're smart (and I know you are), you'll save a copy of those two posts. The logs of the spell in action in post 6605 are not representative, because the spell has been change since those logs were taken.
Spiritual Mana Control: same as Elemental Mana Control.
Multi*-*Opponent Combat: increases the minimum number of splash targets, as with other ball spells.
Spell Aiming: Obviously.
Demonology Lore: (a) increases damage, and (b) increases maximum number of splash targets. Indirectly, Demonology Lore benefits Balefire by increasing the duration of Minor Demon Summoning and the amount of mana a minor demon can hold.
Elemental Mana Control: increases the probability that your minor demon will use its stored mana to contribute damage to the initial strike. See post 6605, as updated by post 6717, for details. If you're smart (and I know you are), you'll save a copy of those two posts. The logs of the spell in action in post 6605 are not representative, because the spell has been change since those logs were taken.
Spiritual Mana Control: same as Elemental Mana Control.
Multi*-*Opponent Combat: increases the minimum number of splash targets, as with other ball spells.
There's still some time before the AS booster is implemented (RSN!)
I don't think it's out of the question to get Necro/Demon lore to add AS bonuses comparable to the ones gained from blessing lore by Clerics and Empaths.
Also, as I posted over on the PC, lore-wise it makes zero sense for sorcerers to be last on the Bolt AS chart.
We know that bolt spells are clearly in the realm of the elementalist (hai Wizards.)
Doesn't make much sense that the only other pure with an elemental bent would be worse than the spiritualists at casting bolt spells, then.
-Sea Wizard
>A green-eyed white cat belches, and a bolt of blue flame explodes into the air.
>Rimalon points at Kilthal. A puff of silver smoke envelops Kilthal. When the smoke clears, a frog is squatting in his place.
I don't think it's out of the question to get Necro/Demon lore to add AS bonuses comparable to the ones gained from blessing lore by Clerics and Empaths.
Also, as I posted over on the PC, lore-wise it makes zero sense for sorcerers to be last on the Bolt AS chart.
We know that bolt spells are clearly in the realm of the elementalist (hai Wizards.)
Doesn't make much sense that the only other pure with an elemental bent would be worse than the spiritualists at casting bolt spells, then.
-Sea Wizard
>A green-eyed white cat belches, and a bolt of blue flame explodes into the air.
>Rimalon points at Kilthal. A puff of silver smoke envelops Kilthal. When the smoke clears, a frog is squatting in his place.
Forgot about EMC/SMC affecting it, thanks, Kardios
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
Thanks for the memory jog, Kardios!
I enjoyed reviewing some of our earlier commentary about this spell -- some great suggestions were made that hopefully come back up here in the current discussion.
One I did find disenheartening was the 'illusioned demon will not contribute to the crits, preserving the illusion' comment. I had overlooked that initially.
I'd like to recommend that be re-considered. I would expect it to hold true in towns (unless the sorcerer wanted to be run out of town on rails, or unless the sorcerer was in a guild / tower). But in hunting / combat outside of towns, I would hope the demon would either:
1) Drop the illusion, contribute to the criticals, then subsequently allow to be reillusioned at an appropriate time; or,
2) Just flat contribute to the criticals and allow the illusion to remain.
Still, good stuff in all, and thanks again!
Doug
I enjoyed reviewing some of our earlier commentary about this spell -- some great suggestions were made that hopefully come back up here in the current discussion.
One I did find disenheartening was the 'illusioned demon will not contribute to the crits, preserving the illusion' comment. I had overlooked that initially.
I'd like to recommend that be re-considered. I would expect it to hold true in towns (unless the sorcerer wanted to be run out of town on rails, or unless the sorcerer was in a guild / tower). But in hunting / combat outside of towns, I would hope the demon would either:
1) Drop the illusion, contribute to the criticals, then subsequently allow to be reillusioned at an appropriate time; or,
2) Just flat contribute to the criticals and allow the illusion to remain.
Still, good stuff in all, and thanks again!
Doug
>>Wouldn't matter, because critter TD is circle specific, circle based CS boosters are fake irrelevant bonuses.
Hmm. . . ok, V. I was struggling with that very fact and the discussion around 'best CS' angle. Am I correct then in interpreting this as follows:
With respect to the 700's circle, the number (initial CS and total end roll) are less of interest / importance than the resulting damage done by a successful cast.
Said differently, the inherent power of the sorcerer circle falls short of expectations not because of the sorcerer's ability to generate CS (which I thought was the recurrent theme), but because the thresholds for damage / crits don't seem to take accurately into account the concept of the circle's power.
I get the overall sense of 'hunting efficiency', but am struggling with how to realize it given some of the dialog.
Doug
Hmm. . . ok, V. I was struggling with that very fact and the discussion around 'best CS' angle. Am I correct then in interpreting this as follows:
With respect to the 700's circle, the number (initial CS and total end roll) are less of interest / importance than the resulting damage done by a successful cast.
Said differently, the inherent power of the sorcerer circle falls short of expectations not because of the sorcerer's ability to generate CS (which I thought was the recurrent theme), but because the thresholds for damage / crits don't seem to take accurately into account the concept of the circle's power.
I get the overall sense of 'hunting efficiency', but am struggling with how to realize it given some of the dialog.
Doug
Tossing out some clips of balefire in action. At first, this is as a level 47 sorcerer, singled in demonology and both mana shares. He does have a rather bad dexterity to affect his bolt AS, only in the 60's. Some clips come from before the splash was put in place.
AvD with robes
You gesture at a shan wizard.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan wizard!
AS: +238 vs DS: +191 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +56 = +168
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
The shan wizard's arm shatters and explodes from a tremendous surge of plasma!
AvD with rigid leather
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan ranger!
AS: +238 vs DS: +229 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +10 = +60
A clean miss.
You see a fairly typical shan ranger that is lying down.
She has a completely severed right leg and some minor cuts and bruises on her left leg.
She is stunned.
She has a leather skullcap (worn), a small steel buckler, a silvery longsword and some studded green leathers (worn).
AvD with soft leather
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +257 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +11 = +44
A clean miss.
You see a fairly typical shan cleric that is lying down.
He has a completely severed right leg.
He is stunned.
He has a spiked holy-water sprinkler, a small silver roundshield and some dark braided leathers (worn).
AvD with chain
You gesture at a shan warrior.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan warrior!
AS: +238 vs DS: +104 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +56 = +216
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Streaking blast of plasma fills the shan warrior's mouth searing away the tongue!
You see a fairly typical shan warrior that is lying down.
He has a completely severed right leg.
He is stunned.
He has a plumed helm (worn), an over-sized jeddart-axe and a dented chain hauberk (worn).
AvD with plate
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a kobold.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a kobold!
AS: +238 vs DS: +3 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +16 = +263
... and hit for 76 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the kobold's leg to explode!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a kobold, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You see a fairly typical kobold.
It appears to be in good shape.
It has some full plate (worn).
AvD comparison with fire spirit
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Fire Spirit spell...
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +36 = +73
A clean miss.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +23 = +55
A clean miss.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
With splash and demon
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a dybbuk.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a dybbuk!
AS: +238 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +56 = +148
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the dybbuk's stomach leaving painful red streaks.
A narrow-beaked iron verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your iron verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 25 points of damage!
Hot steam spray to the leg makes the dybbuk jump back.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a dybbuk, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Light burns to the dybbuk's leg.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a dybbuk.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a dybbuk!
AS: +238 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +42 = +134
... and hit for 18 points of damage!
Searing bolt of energy strikes the dybbuk, scorching a wide swath of flesh!
A narrow-beaked iron verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your iron verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
The dybbuk flinches from the spurt of hot steam to its right arm.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a dybbuk, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the dybbuk's stomach leaving painful red streaks.
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits an eidolon.
... 7 points of damage!
Left ankle stung!
The eidolon stamps in silent annoyance.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a zombie.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a zombie!
AS: +238 vs DS: +105 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +85 = +257
... and hit for 89 points of damage!
Muscle and bone blasted to pieces by searing wave of energy!
A zombie looks down at his mangled left leg and falls over!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 50 points of damage!
Shot blankets chest, leaving a brilliantly bleached but empty ribcage!
Most impressive!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a zombie, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 35 points of damage!
Shimmering beam of plasma nearly shears the zombie's neck in two!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the zombie's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The zombie shudders slightly then ceases his so called life.
With a capped character, doubled in spell aim and demonology, singled in both mana controls.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +364 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +82 = +408
... and hit for 156 points of damage!
Sizzling arc of plasma blows the jungle troll's kneecap off!
The jungle troll is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 80 points of damage!
Half of midsection reduced to a fine red mist! Now unsupported, half-vaporized organs topple out onto the ground!
What a mess!
The jungle troll's body convulses one last time before the stillness of death overtakes it.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 50 points of damage!
The zombie is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 75 points of damage!
The zombie's skeletal structure and muscle tissue reduced to fine ash!
You gesture at a lesser construct.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a lesser construct!
AS: +364 vs DS: +75 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +45 = +352
... and hit for 130 points of damage!
Powerful blast to the lesser construct's abdomen parboils internal organs!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 45 points of damage!
Shield arm removed at the shoulder!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a lesser construct, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 45 points of damage!
Tremendous plasma discharge slices deep into the lesser construct's chest!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 50 points of damage!
The zombie is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the zombie's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
And just because it amused me
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at Strathspey.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at Strathspey!
AS: +439 vs DS: +46 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +82 = +540
... and hit for 265 points of damage!
Muscle and bone blasted to pieces by powerful bolt of energy!
* Strathspey drops dead at your feet!
The guiding force leaves you.
A nearby goodwife screams, "Murder!"
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes Strathspey, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
Some info from Strathspey
Most likely is no HP damage difference among demon types.
Lorae'tyr demons do steam and disruption damage.
Grik'tyr do disintegration and crushing.
Shien'tyr do vacuum and unbalancing.
Pure demonology contribution, no necromancy.
The demon's crit roughly scales with the initial bolt, while the splash functions like those of other ball spells.
Training in mana controls increases the chance the demon will contribute.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
AvD with robes
You gesture at a shan wizard.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan wizard!
AS: +238 vs DS: +191 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +56 = +168
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
The shan wizard's arm shatters and explodes from a tremendous surge of plasma!
AvD with rigid leather
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan ranger!
AS: +238 vs DS: +229 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +10 = +60
A clean miss.
You see a fairly typical shan ranger that is lying down.
She has a completely severed right leg and some minor cuts and bruises on her left leg.
She is stunned.
She has a leather skullcap (worn), a small steel buckler, a silvery longsword and some studded green leathers (worn).
AvD with soft leather
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +257 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +11 = +44
A clean miss.
You see a fairly typical shan cleric that is lying down.
He has a completely severed right leg.
He is stunned.
He has a spiked holy-water sprinkler, a small silver roundshield and some dark braided leathers (worn).
AvD with chain
You gesture at a shan warrior.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan warrior!
AS: +238 vs DS: +104 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +56 = +216
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Streaking blast of plasma fills the shan warrior's mouth searing away the tongue!
You see a fairly typical shan warrior that is lying down.
He has a completely severed right leg.
He is stunned.
He has a plumed helm (worn), an over-sized jeddart-axe and a dented chain hauberk (worn).
AvD with plate
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a kobold.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a kobold!
AS: +238 vs DS: +3 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +16 = +263
... and hit for 76 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the kobold's leg to explode!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a kobold, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You see a fairly typical kobold.
It appears to be in good shape.
It has some full plate (worn).
AvD comparison with fire spirit
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Fire Spirit spell...
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +36 = +73
A clean miss.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a shan cleric.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a shan cleric!
AS: +238 vs DS: +258 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +23 = +55
A clean miss.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
With splash and demon
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a dybbuk.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a dybbuk!
AS: +238 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +56 = +148
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the dybbuk's stomach leaving painful red streaks.
A narrow-beaked iron verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your iron verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 25 points of damage!
Hot steam spray to the leg makes the dybbuk jump back.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a dybbuk, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Light burns to the dybbuk's leg.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a dybbuk.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a dybbuk!
AS: +238 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +42 = +134
... and hit for 18 points of damage!
Searing bolt of energy strikes the dybbuk, scorching a wide swath of flesh!
A narrow-beaked iron verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your iron verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
The dybbuk flinches from the spurt of hot steam to its right arm.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a dybbuk, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the dybbuk's stomach leaving painful red streaks.
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits an eidolon.
... 7 points of damage!
Left ankle stung!
The eidolon stamps in silent annoyance.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a zombie.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a zombie!
AS: +238 vs DS: +105 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +85 = +257
... and hit for 89 points of damage!
Muscle and bone blasted to pieces by searing wave of energy!
A zombie looks down at his mangled left leg and falls over!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 50 points of damage!
Shot blankets chest, leaving a brilliantly bleached but empty ribcage!
Most impressive!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a zombie, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 35 points of damage!
Shimmering beam of plasma nearly shears the zombie's neck in two!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the zombie's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The zombie shudders slightly then ceases his so called life.
With a capped character, doubled in spell aim and demonology, singled in both mana controls.
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +364 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +82 = +408
... and hit for 156 points of damage!
Sizzling arc of plasma blows the jungle troll's kneecap off!
The jungle troll is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 80 points of damage!
Half of midsection reduced to a fine red mist! Now unsupported, half-vaporized organs topple out onto the ground!
What a mess!
The jungle troll's body convulses one last time before the stillness of death overtakes it.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 50 points of damage!
The zombie is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 75 points of damage!
The zombie's skeletal structure and muscle tissue reduced to fine ash!
You gesture at a lesser construct.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a lesser construct!
AS: +364 vs DS: +75 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +45 = +352
... and hit for 130 points of damage!
Powerful blast to the lesser construct's abdomen parboils internal organs!
A tri-taloned mottled green grik'tval shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your mottled green grik'tval loses 2 mana.)
... 45 points of damage!
Shield arm removed at the shoulder!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a lesser construct, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 45 points of damage!
Tremendous plasma discharge slices deep into the lesser construct's chest!
A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a zombie.
... 50 points of damage!
The zombie is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the zombie's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
And just because it amused me
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
You gesture at Strathspey.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at Strathspey!
AS: +439 vs DS: +46 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +82 = +540
... and hit for 265 points of damage!
Muscle and bone blasted to pieces by powerful bolt of energy!
* Strathspey drops dead at your feet!
The guiding force leaves you.
A nearby goodwife screams, "Murder!"
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes Strathspey, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
Some info from Strathspey
Most likely is no HP damage difference among demon types.
Lorae'tyr demons do steam and disruption damage.
Grik'tyr do disintegration and crushing.
Shien'tyr do vacuum and unbalancing.
Pure demonology contribution, no necromancy.
The demon's crit roughly scales with the initial bolt, while the splash functions like those of other ball spells.
Training in mana controls increases the chance the demon will contribute.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
Essentially Doug the problem comes down to effect. The CS number is in no way the issue. It's the fact that sorcerer spells are just really subpar against creatures after they hit. Sorcerers, as a result of growing pains, had all the "crit kill" ripped out of their spells. They were told that GS was going to a more attrition based system and everyone else was heading in that direction. Now sorcerers are an attrition based caster in an instant kill world.
The one thing sorcerers excel at is disabling. This would be great except 1. It sucks a great deal of mana others don't have to spend and 2. It greatly increases the time it takes to kill something. The difference between my old sorcerer and my ranger are night and day. My ranger just feels like I'm cheating his hunts are so fast and easy.
When sorcerers say they want to be the best CS casters they mean:
1. Mana Disruption needs to be better than Bane
2. Disintegration needs to be at least equivalent to Bone Shatter
3. Dark Catalyst needs to compete with Wither, Immolation, Disruption, etc.
4. A mass attack CS spell that isn't evil eye with eye spy which works BETTER than 1030 and 635 in 735
Quite frankly the whole component grab bag needs to be revisitted as well. That's another thing sorcerers were told everyone was getting which only happened to them. Minor summoning is a bad familiar with a huge lore and material requirement. Animate dead is easily better than 630 but it requires jumping through too many hoops. Scroll infusion and planar shift are fine.
Keith/Brinret
The one thing sorcerers excel at is disabling. This would be great except 1. It sucks a great deal of mana others don't have to spend and 2. It greatly increases the time it takes to kill something. The difference between my old sorcerer and my ranger are night and day. My ranger just feels like I'm cheating his hunts are so fast and easy.
When sorcerers say they want to be the best CS casters they mean:
1. Mana Disruption needs to be better than Bane
2. Disintegration needs to be at least equivalent to Bone Shatter
3. Dark Catalyst needs to compete with Wither, Immolation, Disruption, etc.
4. A mass attack CS spell that isn't evil eye with eye spy which works BETTER than 1030 and 635 in 735
Quite frankly the whole component grab bag needs to be revisitted as well. That's another thing sorcerers were told everyone was getting which only happened to them. Minor summoning is a bad familiar with a huge lore and material requirement. Animate dead is easily better than 630 but it requires jumping through too many hoops. Scroll infusion and planar shift are fine.
Keith/Brinret
>Said differently, the inherent power of the sorcerer circle falls short of expectations not because of the sorcerer's ability to generate CS (which I thought was the recurrent theme), but because the thresholds for damage / crits don't seem to take accurately into account the concept of the circle's power.
The CS was only an issue for the 400s and 100s, which were fixed, because those circles were not used by a single profession, so critters were balanced against wizards & clerics, not much weaker sorcerers.
But otherwise, the best CS hunter would be defined as he who has the most damaging spells, regardless of warding margin. 1106, for instance, is insanely more damaging than 705. It may not start out that way, but by cap, it is. It is better than DC even. There is a reason I hunt with bolts. My fireball is wicked strong because of my lore training. My 705 is as strong as a level 0 sorcerer because lore training is irrelevant for it. Critters, in general, take increased spell power into account through higher health, higher natural padding. But our spells don't increase in power like pretty much every other attack spell in game. We need a lore review worse than any other circle. The only one with appropriate lore implementation is 711, and that is a niche hunting spell that is very mana intensive.
Another aspect of the "best CS hunter" would be a multitarget CS spell (and no, I don't count 717, for what should be obvious reasons). You find these spells, oddly enough, with Semis. Semis infact have the most powerful ones. Wizards lack a multitarget CS spell, but Cone more than makes up for that, being the sole multitarget AS spell in game. Clerics have one, it isn't super powerful, but then they are the most physical of the pures. Empaths have one as a disabler, again not hugely powerful, but again it isn't supposed to be their thing). Sorcerers lack one.
There was a proposal called Harbinger 735, which would allow us to turn any of our other 700s circle spell into a mass target spell (cone of 705, cone of dc, cone of balefire) with appropriate mana costs & training requirements of course (much more expensive than Cone of Lightning). That implementation, plus lore (or equivalent mana control) tie ins for 705 and 702, and a better lore implementation (or training cost changes in our lore skills) for 719. Those things might put us back on top as the "best CS hunter."
Until then, Bards and Empaths can fight over it, with maybe even an Immo wizard putting forth a reasonable argument to be best.
The CS was only an issue for the 400s and 100s, which were fixed, because those circles were not used by a single profession, so critters were balanced against wizards & clerics, not much weaker sorcerers.
But otherwise, the best CS hunter would be defined as he who has the most damaging spells, regardless of warding margin. 1106, for instance, is insanely more damaging than 705. It may not start out that way, but by cap, it is. It is better than DC even. There is a reason I hunt with bolts. My fireball is wicked strong because of my lore training. My 705 is as strong as a level 0 sorcerer because lore training is irrelevant for it. Critters, in general, take increased spell power into account through higher health, higher natural padding. But our spells don't increase in power like pretty much every other attack spell in game. We need a lore review worse than any other circle. The only one with appropriate lore implementation is 711, and that is a niche hunting spell that is very mana intensive.
Another aspect of the "best CS hunter" would be a multitarget CS spell (and no, I don't count 717, for what should be obvious reasons). You find these spells, oddly enough, with Semis. Semis infact have the most powerful ones. Wizards lack a multitarget CS spell, but Cone more than makes up for that, being the sole multitarget AS spell in game. Clerics have one, it isn't super powerful, but then they are the most physical of the pures. Empaths have one as a disabler, again not hugely powerful, but again it isn't supposed to be their thing). Sorcerers lack one.
There was a proposal called Harbinger 735, which would allow us to turn any of our other 700s circle spell into a mass target spell (cone of 705, cone of dc, cone of balefire) with appropriate mana costs & training requirements of course (much more expensive than Cone of Lightning). That implementation, plus lore (or equivalent mana control) tie ins for 705 and 702, and a better lore implementation (or training cost changes in our lore skills) for 719. Those things might put us back on top as the "best CS hunter."
Until then, Bards and Empaths can fight over it, with maybe even an Immo wizard putting forth a reasonable argument to be best.
Yep, those points I can agree with, almost to an item, Keith.
The only one I hold out on is the 1030 comparison. I don't disagree with the principle of your statement, but I think the prevailing thought is there's some work to do there, first.
The really great news (perhaps?) is that Strathspey introduced the Balefire concept with the inclusion of an on-going 'sorcerer circle review'. AS obviously was included in that. I can't wait to see what else the team has up its collective sleeve (with deference to Heathyr's usual desire to say 'kilt', instead, there).
I'll tell ya, if I see another blasted runestone or chalk requirement, I think I'll . . . well, it won't be my usual pretty self.
Doug
The only one I hold out on is the 1030 comparison. I don't disagree with the principle of your statement, but I think the prevailing thought is there's some work to do there, first.
The really great news (perhaps?) is that Strathspey introduced the Balefire concept with the inclusion of an on-going 'sorcerer circle review'. AS obviously was included in that. I can't wait to see what else the team has up its collective sleeve (with deference to Heathyr's usual desire to say 'kilt', instead, there).
I'll tell ya, if I see another blasted runestone or chalk requirement, I think I'll . . . well, it won't be my usual pretty self.
Doug
Honestly, I am having a very hard time understanding why Sorcerers either have to be last or tied with the worst for bolt spells.
I get why Wizards should be first -- no argument here. But Sorcerers being worse than Empaths?!
We are last with melee. If we have to sacrifice one of our main spell slots -- which I may add is a steeper trade-off than other professions due to the lack of a major circle -- then I think we should at least be either second on the list or tied for second for bolt proficiency.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding why there's such a great disparity at all.
I think I've made pretty clear why I don't consider 211 a great deal in these calculations, but I'll also say this --
There's no reason why there should be a significant variance (say more than 5 or 10 AS either way) at the maximal capabilities for a bolt.
I also see nothing wrong with a select empath or sorcerer bolt ending up being more impactful in select situations than a wizard bolt. Nor do I see any reason why a cleric bolt shouldn't be more impactful in select situations than a sorcerer or empath bolt. I know this provokes various professions' envy, but what is one to do.
Here's the rub -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does?
And (glancing through the next folder) here's another rub. I'm not sure this is worth all the brouhaha we're giving it, if we're in fact going to be discussing variance in increments of 1 AS. The drive for parity is not constrained to the equalization of AS. We're not accepting that, it seems, and that's ok, I guess.
But, honestly, I'm not sure that any lesser approach is going to quell this debate, either. With the effects so dramatically randomized, and justifiable or deniable outcomes so subject to interpretation of point-of-view', it seems there's a 'scientific' contingent that wants only to focus on the first number of a lengthy and complex calculation with many variables. I guess that's the real quandary.
Doug
I think I've made pretty clear why I don't consider 211 a great deal in these calculations, but I'll also say this --
There's no reason why there should be a significant variance (say more than 5 or 10 AS either way) at the maximal capabilities for a bolt.
I also see nothing wrong with a select empath or sorcerer bolt ending up being more impactful in select situations than a wizard bolt. Nor do I see any reason why a cleric bolt shouldn't be more impactful in select situations than a sorcerer or empath bolt. I know this provokes various professions' envy, but what is one to do.
Here's the rub -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does?
And (glancing through the next folder) here's another rub. I'm not sure this is worth all the brouhaha we're giving it, if we're in fact going to be discussing variance in increments of 1 AS. The drive for parity is not constrained to the equalization of AS. We're not accepting that, it seems, and that's ok, I guess.
But, honestly, I'm not sure that any lesser approach is going to quell this debate, either. With the effects so dramatically randomized, and justifiable or deniable outcomes so subject to interpretation of point-of-view', it seems there's a 'scientific' contingent that wants only to focus on the first number of a lengthy and complex calculation with many variables. I guess that's the real quandary.
Doug
>>I also see nothing wrong with a select empath or sorcerer bolt ending up being more impactful in select situations than a wizard bolt.<<
No one is arguing that -- at least in earnest.
>>Nor do I see any reason why a cleric bolt shouldn't be more impactful in select situations than a sorcerer or empath bolt.<<
And no one is arguing that either.
>>Here's the rub -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does?<<
And here is where the problem comes in. As I see it, this arguement is really going beyond the Balefire spell. Honestly, I am okay with the spell as it is currently designed.
What I have an issue with is the entire system it will become a part of. This system has two points of differentiation:
1. What a spell does
2. The delivery mechanism -- in this case, attack strength (AS)
This is where the argument around AS mattters. It will have some impact on this spell. And it will have an impact on other aspects of the game, include other spells and the use of objects like wands. Because of this, it makes little sense to me to have Sorcerers potentially dedicate a spell slot so they can just get a little bit father away from being last on a list.
I am fine with sacrificing utility and even placing a particular focus on the Sorcerer base list. However, it should produce more definitive results. The profession has been in need of some revitalization for a number of years now. Development should be bold.
Actually, sorcerers may have an edge that acts as an equalizer; they can get pure potions and 513 embeds. Cleic/empath spell AS already has 211 factored in, and wizard AS has 513 (except for warmages). Hence, those three classes only can augment their bolt AS one way, while sorcerers can use two means. In fact, if they hunt with a cleric, they can get the benefit of both those spells, as well as 307.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Yes, I know that the above argument presupposes that those methods are available; but pure potions are comman as heck, and if you supply the mana and embeddibles, you should be able to get 513 fairly easily also. Wizards who can embed are all over the place.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
If you had been paying attention, Throgg, you would have realized that we already talked about that. Also, there is nothing stopping clerics or empaths form using 513 imbeds, nor anything stopping wizards from using pure potions, either. So, the point is moot.
Game mechanic decisions are not based on availability of non self cast spells, in general.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
Game mechanic decisions are not based on availability of non self cast spells, in general.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>Actually, sorcerers may have an edge that acts as an equalizer; they can get pure potions and 513 embeds. Cleic/empath spell AS already has 211 factored in, and wizard AS has 513 (except for warmages). Hence, those three classes only can augment their bolt AS one way, while sorcerers can use two means. In fact, if they hunt with a cleric, they can get the benefit of both those spells, as well as 307.
You do realize that having to use more outside sources to boost our AS is NOT a benefit or bonus in any way, right?
>In fact, if they hunt with a cleric, they can get the benefit of both those spells, as well as 307.
I find that to be an unacceptable standard. No other profession needs to hunt with another so that they can get enough of a combat boost that they are able to effectively hunt.
You do realize that having to use more outside sources to boost our AS is NOT a benefit or bonus in any way, right?
>In fact, if they hunt with a cleric, they can get the benefit of both those spells, as well as 307.
I find that to be an unacceptable standard. No other profession needs to hunt with another so that they can get enough of a combat boost that they are able to effectively hunt.
>>nothing stopping clerics or empaths form using 513 imbeds, nor anything stopping wizards from using pure potions, either. So, the point is moot.
Game mechanic decisions are not based on availability of non self cast spells, in general.<<
As to your first point, I did mention that clerics/empaths have access to 513, and wizards to 211. The concept I am trying to elucidate is that sorcerers have no innate spell that raises their AS, so they can raise their base bolt AS in two ways, partially offsetting the difference.
As to the second point, I agree in principle. I try to play my characters self spelled only. On the other hand, just about every class can benefit from outside spell help; warriors, rogues etc. Hence the popularity of mass spells. "Massies in the small park!" So, sorcerers need be no different.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Game mechanic decisions are not based on availability of non self cast spells, in general.<<
As to your first point, I did mention that clerics/empaths have access to 513, and wizards to 211. The concept I am trying to elucidate is that sorcerers have no innate spell that raises their AS, so they can raise their base bolt AS in two ways, partially offsetting the difference.
As to the second point, I agree in principle. I try to play my characters self spelled only. On the other hand, just about every class can benefit from outside spell help; warriors, rogues etc. Hence the popularity of mass spells. "Massies in the small park!" So, sorcerers need be no different.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>As to your first point, I did mention that clerics/empaths have access to 513, and wizards to 211. The concept I am trying to elucidate is that sorcerers have no innate spell that raises their AS, so they can raise their base bolt AS in two ways, partially offsetting the difference.
Wheels are round.
Wheels are round.
>>Actually, sorcerers may have an edge that acts as an equalizer; they can get pure potions and 513 embeds.<<
By that same token, Empaths can get access to most of the AS and DS boosters and disablers in the Minor Elemental and Major Elemental list as imbeddibles. And, they still have their own offensive spells and the ability to use wands and scrolls from the treasure system. Therefore, the Empath profession is seriously broken and needs to be nerfed.
And before the wailing begins, I do not believe this any more than I believe the logic behind sorcerers having a profession specific advantage because of pure potions and 513 embeds. The logic is poor on both counts.
By that same token, Empaths can get access to most of the AS and DS boosters and disablers in the Minor Elemental and Major Elemental list as imbeddibles. And, they still have their own offensive spells and the ability to use wands and scrolls from the treasure system. Therefore, the Empath profession is seriously broken and needs to be nerfed.
And before the wailing begins, I do not believe this any more than I believe the logic behind sorcerers having a profession specific advantage because of pure potions and 513 embeds. The logic is poor on both counts.
| >As to your first point, I did mention that clerics/empaths have access to 513, and wizards to 211. The concept I am trying to elucidate is that sorcerers have no innate spell that raises their AS, so they can raise their base bolt AS in two ways, partially offsetting the difference. |
| Wheels are round. |
The sky is blue.
Except when it is not.
Then is has an advantage because people can get blue tinted glasses, and make the sky look even bluer.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>>By that same token, Empaths can get access to most of the AS and DS boosters and disablers in the Minor Elemental and Major Elemental list as imbeddibles<<
What bolt As boosters are in the MnE/MjE circles, other than 513? And DS boosters and disablers are not under discussion here; just bolt AS. Anyone with enough training can use e-wave and such imbeds.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
What bolt As boosters are in the MnE/MjE circles, other than 513? And DS boosters and disablers are not under discussion here; just bolt AS. Anyone with enough training can use e-wave and such imbeds.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
That's like saying the Clerics/Empaths are overpowered due to the massive boost and great availability of 401, 406, and 414. They would be, too, if every member of their professions always hunted with them. They don't, though, and the game isn't balanced around outside spells.
Yay for non-sorcerers coming in our folder and actively fighting against our suggestions for improvement. You stay classy, fellow pures.
Yay for non-sorcerers coming in our folder and actively fighting against our suggestions for improvement. You stay classy, fellow pures.
Okay,
This one's coming from someone who plays an Empath for a main and has a sorcerer coming up(who I find fun to play)
As my main has trained up, heavily focusing on certain lores, I can see my spells getting more powerful. 1106 is devastating against certain enemies.. I press that button and expect to see a BOOM, usually involving a stun.
Now, on my sorceress... Yes, I've trained a few lores.. but they don't seem to do much for my attack spells. 705 is exactly what it was when I first got it. When I hit my 705 button, I do not expect to see much of a boom at all..
I'm not really sure where I was going with this, other than to say I see where you all are coming from.
This one's coming from someone who plays an Empath for a main and has a sorcerer coming up(who I find fun to play)
As my main has trained up, heavily focusing on certain lores, I can see my spells getting more powerful. 1106 is devastating against certain enemies.. I press that button and expect to see a BOOM, usually involving a stun.
Now, on my sorceress... Yes, I've trained a few lores.. but they don't seem to do much for my attack spells. 705 is exactly what it was when I first got it. When I hit my 705 button, I do not expect to see much of a boom at all..
I'm not really sure where I was going with this, other than to say I see where you all are coming from.
Lores don'y help the majority of sorc attack spells. This includes 705, 702, and 708. (limb animation on 708 is helped by necro lore, but the actual damage it does is not affected)
719 is helped by lores, but not sorc lores. Elemental lores help that one.
Read the sorcerer page on KP at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer for more info on lores.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
719 is helped by lores, but not sorc lores. Elemental lores help that one.
Read the sorcerer page on KP at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer for more info on lores.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>>Yes, I've trained a few lores.. but they don't seem to do much for my attack spells. <<
Ah! Now, lores are another story. Sorcerers have gotten shortchaned here, I think. The best I can say is that demonology lore helps control Torment. OK, necromancy helps with animates, but they are an indirect addition to combat ability.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ah! Now, lores are another story. Sorcerers have gotten shortchaned here, I think. The best I can say is that demonology lore helps control Torment. OK, necromancy helps with animates, but they are an indirect addition to combat ability.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
I think what Dixon was trying to illustrate with regards to the lores is that other professions get stronger. Sorcery, by and large, doesn't. We'll also be the least effective bolters (assuming the measuring stick is AS totals). "Masters of destruction". It just doesn't seem right that sorcerers are less effective in combat than empaths.
>Ah! Now, lores are another story. Sorcerers have gotten shortchaned here, I think. The best I can say is that demonology lore helps control Torment. OK, necromancy helps with animates, but they are an indirect addition to combat ability.
Necromancy is at its best in 711. Could you maybe go to the wizard folders and try to talk the GMs out of nerfing haste or something?
>Ah! Now, lores are another story. Sorcerers have gotten shortchaned here, I think. The best I can say is that demonology lore helps control Torment. OK, necromancy helps with animates, but they are an indirect addition to combat ability.
Necromancy is at its best in 711. Could you maybe go to the wizard folders and try to talk the GMs out of nerfing haste or something?
>I think what Dixon was trying to illustrate with regards to the lores is that other professions get stronger. Sorcery, by and large, doesn't. We'll also be the least effective bolters (assuming the measuring stick is AS totals). "Masters of destruction". It just doesn't seem right that sorcerers are less effective in combat than empaths.
That is indeed what I was trying to say... for being the masters of destruction, we don't seem to destroy much. When I hit that 705 macro, I do not feel the "pwn" when it hits, even with a ridiculous endroll.
Just who exactly did you guys piss off? I remember watching a friend of mine DC pookas(old DC) and going... holy crap..
I knew DC had been nerfed, but somewhere around level 22 I was fighting a carceris.. magical critter in Anwyn, a wizard I think.. I had 19 mana left and figured "Hey, lets see what THIS does!"
...Nothing much.
That is indeed what I was trying to say... for being the masters of destruction, we don't seem to destroy much. When I hit that 705 macro, I do not feel the "pwn" when it hits, even with a ridiculous endroll.
Just who exactly did you guys piss off? I remember watching a friend of mine DC pookas(old DC) and going... holy crap..
I knew DC had been nerfed, but somewhere around level 22 I was fighting a carceris.. magical critter in Anwyn, a wizard I think.. I had 19 mana left and figured "Hey, lets see what THIS does!"
...Nothing much.
>Here's the rub -- if AS doesn't provide the differentiation, what does?
If you're implying 713 is going to be better than 1110, enough though a sorcerer's self AS is lower, because the spell is better. I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell. Empaths easily have the best lore implementation of any pure profession, possibly any profession period, and 1110 is a perfect example of how a spell can grow and become a killing machine. I would say 1110 is the best bolt spell in game after Cone. I would take it over major shock anyday.
If you're implying 713 is going to be better than 1110, enough though a sorcerer's self AS is lower, because the spell is better. I would say you've never seen a high level empath trained for 1110 cast the spell. Empaths easily have the best lore implementation of any pure profession, possibly any profession period, and 1110 is a perfect example of how a spell can grow and become a killing machine. I would say 1110 is the best bolt spell in game after Cone. I would take it over major shock anyday.
