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The discussion of the water lore benefit on 925 and how NO ONE trains in water lore has got me thinking. What could we add to make water lore a bit more desirable? A few thoughts:
- With 20 ranks of water lore you can evoke 906 to cast minor steam for 4 mana. The exact reverse of how fire lore is used for minor water.
- Have water lore increase the duration of Cold Snap (which I still think should get a single target EVOKE version that does damage) so that we can actually make use of our allotted casts of minor cold.
That said, reviewing the current water lore benefits I'm at a loss why more people don't train in it.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Keith is correct
Wyrom, APM
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
Earthern Fury already allows for fire or water to grant bonus criticals. I think the following spells would be good to add an offensive water lore benefit too as well.
Hurl Boulder (510) Enough water lore allows you to hurl a huge icicle that has a 90% chance to hit the eyes, head, or neck if the spell is channeled and if the target has been rooted (not frozen) by cold snap.
Immolation (519) Give an option for the spell to work off water lore the same way it does off of fire lore.
Sandstorm (914) Enough water lore turns the spell into Hailstorm and allows the spell to have a chance to freeze the target just like cold snap.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
Hurl Boulder (510) Enough water lore allows you to hurl a huge icicle that has a 90% chance to hit the eyes, head, or neck if the spell is channeled and if the target has been rooted (not frozen) by cold snap.
Immolation (519) Give an option for the spell to work off water lore the same way it does off of fire lore.
Sandstorm (914) Enough water lore turns the spell into Hailstorm and allows the spell to have a chance to freeze the target just like cold snap.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
I like the ideas, actually, though I disagree with the 90% chance of Hurl Icicle. Seems a bit high, to me. Otherwise, both Hurl Icicle and Hailstorm look good.
Immolation, I guess I'd need more reference on which way you're going with it.
Personally, I'd see it as Chilled to the Bone, or Deep Freeze or something.
Water lore grants a chance, based on warding margin and lore, to instantly freeze the heart and create auto death. However, what about undead or constructs? I suppose we could do a shatter thing, but I feel that's kinda where 512 was intended to go. What were your thoughts?
Well, a big concern for wizards has been the "one cast" kill so I thought the 90% chance to hit head, neck, or eyes if channeled and if the target is rooted by cold snap would be a bit of a bone.
1. You have to successfully ward the target and root them with cold snap first.
2. You have to channel the spell which forces hard RT on you, leaving you vulnerable.
3. It's still only 90% chance and depending on your endroll, there is no guarantee you're going to crit kill the target.
I feel that's enough setup and risk to warrant the high rate of success. Channeling a spell already gives 30% chance or higher to hit the head, neck or eyes after all. The root of cold snap and water lore training could increase this by another 60%.
As some folks have mentioned, 520 was pretty cool in how it provided flavored benefits for each of the 4 lores. Maybe Immolation could be instant kill with fire, knock down with earth, mana leech with water, and stun with air. Of course folks might argue that fire would still be best because of the instant kill chance.
I'm pretty sure just about everyone is using earthern fury now so maybe only the other core offensive spells need some tweaking to provide benefits for all 4 lores. It sounds like quite a few wizards gravitate to fire for the offensive capabilities provided by many offensive spells if you're highly trained in fire lore. The only concern here is if by providing offensive benefits for the other 4 lores to spells like immolation, would fire lore be gimped in comparison?
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
1. You have to successfully ward the target and root them with cold snap first.
2. You have to channel the spell which forces hard RT on you, leaving you vulnerable.
3. It's still only 90% chance and depending on your endroll, there is no guarantee you're going to crit kill the target.
I feel that's enough setup and risk to warrant the high rate of success. Channeling a spell already gives 30% chance or higher to hit the head, neck or eyes after all. The root of cold snap and water lore training could increase this by another 60%.
As some folks have mentioned, 520 was pretty cool in how it provided flavored benefits for each of the 4 lores. Maybe Immolation could be instant kill with fire, knock down with earth, mana leech with water, and stun with air. Of course folks might argue that fire would still be best because of the instant kill chance.
I'm pretty sure just about everyone is using earthern fury now so maybe only the other core offensive spells need some tweaking to provide benefits for all 4 lores. It sounds like quite a few wizards gravitate to fire for the offensive capabilities provided by many offensive spells if you're highly trained in fire lore. The only concern here is if by providing offensive benefits for the other 4 lores to spells like immolation, would fire lore be gimped in comparison?
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
I train heavily in water lore. It is partially an RP choice and partially for the interaction with 925 when it was announced as going to be heavily part of the update. I'm all for additional benefits, but I'd hate to see wizards turn into "train all these lores and just be able to do all the things" because then everyone ends up the exact same in the end. That's no fun.
What I'd love to see is where each lore can have benefits for all of aspects a wizard may want them for, kinda like was said earlier with altering the spells once a threshold has been reached in that lore or via using evoke/incant/channel/whatever.
Speaking in Faendryl, Jahosk says, "You will now be known as Blade Durakar, the Palestra."
Speaking in Faendryl, Jahosk says, "You will now be known as Blade Durakar, the Palestra."
IMO Earthen Fury did a lot for the combat viability of Water Lore.
These would be good additions:
-CHANNEL Cold Snap for instant immobilization (w/ increased mana cost).
-EVOKE Major Cold to cast Minor Cold.
This may not be a popular opinion, but I am not completely sold on having a cold based Immolation.
I AM a fan of Wizards getting more strong SMRv2 options, so I'd also like to see an update where 914 becomes Elemental Storm, Firestorm/Hailstorm/Sandstorm, which would work similarly to how 917 does. This would be great for ALL Wizards.
These would be good additions:
-CHANNEL Cold Snap for instant immobilization (w/ increased mana cost).
-EVOKE Major Cold to cast Minor Cold.
This may not be a popular opinion, but I am not completely sold on having a cold based Immolation.
I AM a fan of Wizards getting more strong SMRv2 options, so I'd also like to see an update where 914 becomes Elemental Storm, Firestorm/Hailstorm/Sandstorm, which would work similarly to how 917 does. This would be great for ALL Wizards.
If Cone does not yet have an Evoke or Channel, how about permitting one of those to be used in order to create a single-target version. Verb with
+ 1) a target, and
+ 2) a numeric specifier (like casting defensive spells works now), to hit the target with <that many bolts>?
Want to use 5 water bolts against that beasty, use Cone set to water and specify "warfarer 7".
- +1s castRT for each;
- full mana cost for the MINOR (non-Cone) bolt in all cases, as appropriate (so, 21 mana for 7 water bolts in this example);
- and you pay both the mana and the castRT even if you get a lucky death-crit early on. The rest of them just continue to zap the dead body.
Essentially RapidFire, without having to mash the 'repeat' key to do so. And of course a chance of lucking into a kill... and wasting mana. Note that there would be no way to use Major Shock for this.
+ 1) a target, and
+ 2) a numeric specifier (like casting defensive spells works now), to hit the target with <that many bolts>?
Want to use 5 water bolts against that beasty, use Cone set to water and specify "warfarer 7".
- +1s castRT for each;
- full mana cost for the MINOR (non-Cone) bolt in all cases, as appropriate (so, 21 mana for 7 water bolts in this example);
- and you pay both the mana and the castRT even if you get a lucky death-crit early on. The rest of them just continue to zap the dead body.
Essentially RapidFire, without having to mash the 'repeat' key to do so. And of course a chance of lucking into a kill... and wasting mana. Note that there would be no way to use Major Shock for this.
Sadly the new 512 not only fell short but it also removed a tool from the water wizard toolkit by removing the damage. I'd still love to see an evoked single target version (with enough water lore?) that would flat out freeze in one cast and/or deal some damage. Also, duration increase from water lore so they can actually use all those charges of minor cold.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Keith is correct
Wyrom, APM
Keith is correct.
GameMaster Estild
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Keith is correct
Wyrom, APM
Keith is correct.
GameMaster Estild
I think 512 could use a single target version that does damage and with a chance to shatter the target on first cast. % chance equal to 519's auto kill chance on warding over 150. See https://gswiki.play.net/Immolation_(519)#Incineration. Numbers could be tweaked for the lower spell number.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
>The discussion of the water lore benefit on 925 and how NO ONE trains in water lore has got me thinking. What could we add to make water lore a bit more desirable? A few thoughts:
>- With 20 ranks of water lore you can evoke 906 to cast minor steam for 4 mana. The exact reverse of how fire lore is used for minor water.
>- Have water lore increase the duration of Cold Snap (which I still think should get a single target EVOKE version that does damage) so that we can actually make use of our allotted casts of minor cold.
The Cold Snap/Shatter requirements are way out of hand, the duration is garbage, and the payoff damage is garbage when you consider the setup time and mana cost. 200 water lore ranks required for a 100% shatter chance, which only does 50% damage after casting 512 twice on something and landing a rank 5 crit with a CHANNELed 505/510/Minor Cold is beyond insane, and Simu seems to think that's fine as is, and then people wonder why nobody wants to mess with water lore. I've been saying this since it came out and it's been ignored 100% of the time, so I don't expect Cold Snap/Shatter to become more useful because they still don't seem to get it.
>That said, reviewing the current water lore benefits I'm at a loss why more people don't train in it.
Probably because most of us enjoy killing things.
The lack of elemental diversity with spells like Immolate, Stone Fist (despite it being trash), etc., doesn't help hunting wizards not be shoehorned into non-water lores either. They did it right with 917. Not sure why 519 and other spells can't get something similar.
~ Methais
>- With 20 ranks of water lore you can evoke 906 to cast minor steam for 4 mana. The exact reverse of how fire lore is used for minor water.
>- Have water lore increase the duration of Cold Snap (which I still think should get a single target EVOKE version that does damage) so that we can actually make use of our allotted casts of minor cold.
The Cold Snap/Shatter requirements are way out of hand, the duration is garbage, and the payoff damage is garbage when you consider the setup time and mana cost. 200 water lore ranks required for a 100% shatter chance, which only does 50% damage after casting 512 twice on something and landing a rank 5 crit with a CHANNELed 505/510/Minor Cold is beyond insane, and Simu seems to think that's fine as is, and then people wonder why nobody wants to mess with water lore. I've been saying this since it came out and it's been ignored 100% of the time, so I don't expect Cold Snap/Shatter to become more useful because they still don't seem to get it.
>That said, reviewing the current water lore benefits I'm at a loss why more people don't train in it.
Probably because most of us enjoy killing things.
The lack of elemental diversity with spells like Immolate, Stone Fist (despite it being trash), etc., doesn't help hunting wizards not be shoehorned into non-water lores either. They did it right with 917. Not sure why 519 and other spells can't get something similar.
~ Methais
Stone Fist with water lore should have a seedX-based chance to just instant-kill non-watery/fishy creatures. They're drownded.
.
Stone Fist with air lore should also. It could be like whatshername getting her comeuppance in the Rand Al'Thor books, cocooned by the Aes Sedai. Can't breath. You're dead. Thank you for playing.
.
.
Then again, Stone Fist by itself--that is, with Earth lore--should not-suck, but that's a different discussion.
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Stone Fist with air lore should also. It could be like whatshername getting her comeuppance in the Rand Al'Thor books, cocooned by the Aes Sedai. Can't breath. You're dead. Thank you for playing.
.
.
Then again, Stone Fist by itself--that is, with Earth lore--should not-suck, but that's a different discussion.
>That said, reviewing the current water lore benefits I'm at a loss why more people don't train in it.
I'm curious what benefits you're referring to that make water lore such a no brainer.
I might be thinking of someone else, but if I remember correctly, you don't hunt with your wizard, which I'm guessing might have something to do with it.
Water lore is probably great as long as you don't need to kill anything.
~ Methais
I'm curious what benefits you're referring to that make water lore such a no brainer.
I might be thinking of someone else, but if I remember correctly, you don't hunt with your wizard, which I'm guessing might have something to do with it.
Water lore is probably great as long as you don't need to kill anything.
~ Methais
>>Water lore is probably great
Well, I dunno about 'great'. But it's pretty good.
>>as long as you don't need to kill anything.
Oh, even then - just as long as one doesn't hold the belief that the only thing the wizard should do in the game is kill. In one shot.
If one holds that belief, then yeah. . . it's probably not the lore for that gaming style.
Gotta love choices.
Doug
Well, I dunno about 'great'. But it's pretty good.
>>as long as you don't need to kill anything.
Oh, even then - just as long as one doesn't hold the belief that the only thing the wizard should do in the game is kill. In one shot.
If one holds that belief, then yeah. . . it's probably not the lore for that gaming style.
Gotta love choices.
Doug
Water lore enhances a good variety of bolt spells including acid, lightning and water itself. I think any water mage worth their salt probably wants 20 ranks of fire lore for minor steam as well. I'd love to see 512 more usable but it's an interesting spell. The 917 changes also gave water mages another great tool. On top of that they have great utility. As Doug said it probably isn't the lore for wizards who's top priority is killing things in one shot but it's not the complete garbage some people seem to make it out to be.
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
