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Starting today, we're going to begin releasing a few of the spells we've updated for the Elemental Lore Review. Since some of these updates are still being worked on, we're not going to be releasing them in any specific order. So don't fret if you see us jump around (e.g. from Ice Patch (512) to Stone Skin (520) doesn't mean there is no update for Mana Leech (516)). The current Development team has worked very hard to make this long awaited goal a reality, so we hope you enjoy the next few weeks!
GameMaster Estild
First, let me say thank you to the DEV team for finishing the ELR. It's been a long time coming.
Second, if I can request, feel free to put off the 506 changes until the very end! (Or at least until after Duskruin!!) My next term starts 8-31. That would be a great day to announce that change. :)
I look forward to seeing what you've all come up with!
The immediate releases do not include any updates to Haste (506), Rapid Fire (515) or Immolate (519). As previously communicated, I will be releasing the design details of those spells to players before the actual updates are implemented. So until you see a post from me providing that information, those spells are safe.
GameMaster Estild
GameMaster Estild
One suggestion I have is in addition to the spell perks you guys are adding for elemental lore (and hopefully other lores as well), you also add a TD boost for training the lore skills. Something like every 3 lore = +1 TD vs that type of spell...Elemental, Sorcerous, Mental, etc. So squares and semis have a good reason for training outside of spell effects. If you also cap the maximum bonus to +1.25 TD per level (spells plus lore), it would give casters a bit of a TD boost without totally throwing things out of balance.
Just a thought
Just a thought
Wonderful. Already saw the 402 and 403 releases before this post, but the heads-up about spell order not being done like Hot Sorcerer Nights is a very welcomed tidbit.
These really have been a long time coming. Almost a decade perhaps? That is not a criticism, but a compliment. The staff members who were originally doing stuff like this aren't even with us anymore (at least, not all of them?). Super awesome to see this getting done, finally!
...even if sorcerers do have three different types of lores... :(
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
These really have been a long time coming. Almost a decade perhaps? That is not a criticism, but a compliment. The staff members who were originally doing stuff like this aren't even with us anymore (at least, not all of them?). Super awesome to see this getting done, finally!
...even if sorcerers do have three different types of lores... :(
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Out of curiosity - is there any benefit to someone (namely a Wizard) that actually trains a full 2x in a given elemental lore?
The diminished returns seem like a waste of TPs to put towards trying to max out any single Elemental Lore. Seed 9 on Stone Skin for a chance to have a reactive flare if you're hit (unless it's a flare guaranteed to stun or knock down my foe - there's little good that would come from it).
The lore benefits appear to be designed to offer a small boost/fluff to those that will throw 30-50 ranks in each lore instead of trying to maximize a single lore or to utilize two lores for an elemental hybrid (air/water or fire/earth).
I understand the benefits are there to try and make people choose where they'd like to see a boost come from, but for those that actually focus one lore, is there really any true benefit for it?
My wizard is attuned to Earth lore - he strictly trains in Elemental Lore; Earth. He's just over 1.5x in it and sitting at 124 ranks. On a game mechanic side of things, where is the offset that would make his high training in Earth lore over someone that's dabbling? A couple of points of extra DS from 905? A couple of percentage for 520 to maybe flare after he's been hit? That hardly seems worth it.
Is it really worth it on a mechanic side of things for someone to build like this or would they just be better off like most people (probably) and trying to prioritize his TPs into the each Elemental Lore for the greatest benefit from all available spells with the lowest amount of diminishing returns?
Once the current ELR is done and out, it won't be long before someone takes a little time to find the best way to train in lores to gain the greatest amount of benefits from all the spells. Take the currently released updated Wizardly spells: 905, 911, 501 and 520 for example and say someone trained 45 ranks in Earth and 45 Ranks in Air for a 45th level trained Wizard that's doing 2x lore training:
Now, here's a same level Wizard that's trained 90 ranks of just Earth Lore:
Now here's a same level Wizard that's trained 90 ranks of just Air Lore:
What's the point of going 2x in a single lore? There's no extra benefit to being heavily trained in a single Elemental Lore. All I see in the end is most (probably not all) Wizards doing a generic training in Lores to obtain the greatest amount of benefits from all spells. Maxing out a single lore appears to just be a waste and nothing more than perhaps a role playing aspect.
-Drumple - Earth Elemental Wizard who's starting to rethink to adjust his Earth lores to get the best benefits possible from all spells.
The diminished returns seem like a waste of TPs to put towards trying to max out any single Elemental Lore. Seed 9 on Stone Skin for a chance to have a reactive flare if you're hit (unless it's a flare guaranteed to stun or knock down my foe - there's little good that would come from it).
The lore benefits appear to be designed to offer a small boost/fluff to those that will throw 30-50 ranks in each lore instead of trying to maximize a single lore or to utilize two lores for an elemental hybrid (air/water or fire/earth).
I understand the benefits are there to try and make people choose where they'd like to see a boost come from, but for those that actually focus one lore, is there really any true benefit for it?
My wizard is attuned to Earth lore - he strictly trains in Elemental Lore; Earth. He's just over 1.5x in it and sitting at 124 ranks. On a game mechanic side of things, where is the offset that would make his high training in Earth lore over someone that's dabbling? A couple of points of extra DS from 905? A couple of percentage for 520 to maybe flare after he's been hit? That hardly seems worth it.
Is it really worth it on a mechanic side of things for someone to build like this or would they just be better off like most people (probably) and trying to prioritize his TPs into the each Elemental Lore for the greatest benefit from all available spells with the lowest amount of diminishing returns?
Once the current ELR is done and out, it won't be long before someone takes a little time to find the best way to train in lores to gain the greatest amount of benefits from all the spells. Take the currently released updated Wizardly spells: 905, 911, 501 and 520 for example and say someone trained 45 ranks in Earth and 45 Ranks in Air for a 45th level trained Wizard that's doing 2x lore training:
| Spell | Benefit |
| 905 | 45 Earth Lore ranks and you get an extra +5 to DS on 5 Seed Summation. |
| 911 | 45 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra +9 to Dodge ranks on 1 Seed Summation. |
| 501 | 45 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra 9% (?) chance to apply a "groggy" feeling if/when a target wakes up on 1 Seed Summation |
| 520 | 45 Earth Lore ranks and you get 4% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation. |
Now, here's a same level Wizard that's trained 90 ranks of just Earth Lore:
| Spell | Benefit |
| 905 | 90 Earth Lore and you get an extra +9 DS on 5 Seed Summation |
| 911 | 0 Air Lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
| 501 | 0 Air lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
| 520 | 90 Earth Lore ranks and you get 7% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation |
Now here's a same level Wizard that's trained 90 ranks of just Air Lore:
| Spell | Benefit |
| 905 | 0 Earth Lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
| 911 | 90 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra +12 to Dodge ranks on 1 Seed Summation |
| 501 | 90 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra 12% (?) chance to apply a "groggy" feeling if/when a target wakes up on 1 Seed Summation |
| 520 | 0 Earth Lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
What's the point of going 2x in a single lore? There's no extra benefit to being heavily trained in a single Elemental Lore. All I see in the end is most (probably not all) Wizards doing a generic training in Lores to obtain the greatest amount of benefits from all spells. Maxing out a single lore appears to just be a waste and nothing more than perhaps a role playing aspect.
-Drumple - Earth Elemental Wizard who's starting to rethink to adjust his Earth lores to get the best benefits possible from all spells.
>Maybe its not meant to be 2x. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to be 1x to two lores, or 1x in one and .5x in two others, and so on?
I know what you're saying, but to me it doesn't make sense to unnecessarily (for lack of a better word) force Wizards to dabble in all the Elemental Lores to get the same benefits. There should be some kind of "bonus" for being heavily trained.
I was thinking that 152 ranks of a single lore would put you in the heavy/master trained level and you should obtain extra benefits with continued training that make it worthwhile to pursue further training in said lore. I pick 152 ranks because you can use enhancives to obtain 50 ranks of a lore skill (correct me if I'm wrong) and if you train 101 ranks in two lores and were to hit 151 with enhancives, that would allow you master two lores - which you shouldn't be able to do.
After you hit 152 ranks and up, you should see something for the effort. Else, what's the point? So everyone trains 40 or 50 ranks per lore to obtain the most benefits with the least amount of diminishing return.....I don't like it.
If my wizard wants to be the best Earth mage possible, how does him getting a couple extra points of DS or % over someone that maybe hits 100 ranks of EL:E while my wizard hits 202 ranks? Nothing sets him out from the other wizard that's got half the lore skill.
Right now, I see greater benefits if I adjusted my 124 Earth Lore to 69 Earth Lore and 55 Air Lore. This would give me:
This looks a lot better over just doing Earth Lore:
The only main spell bonuses I would lose use of is Stone Fist (which is too mana intensive to use for hunting and not terribly effective against like level or higher creatures. So I'm not really losing anything. I don't swing a weapon so the minor loss of AS from Strength doesn't matter, either. How I see it, I don't really lose anything and I gain so much more if I change over to Air and Earth lore. I'd also gain use of Tonis bolt and currently (until 506 change is released) gain an extra push down for my Haste spell.
This is my problem. My extra efforts to focus my Wizard as an Earth mage is a complete waste of time based on how they have the system setup with the current changes they've shown us. I see this as coming down to every Wizard and their cousin training in each lore to achieve the most benefits with the least amount of diminishing return. No one is going to be different, everyone will have some extra benefit, but no one is going to excel in a lore since it's just not worth it. They should have just given all Wizards a spell that just adds a few extra points of dodge, DS and bolt AS and called it a night. I know they put a lot of time into this and I know we do appreciate the efforts they all put in, but it just seems all for naught from how I see it.
What is the point then of trying to "master" a lore skill over dabbling in all of them? Right now, as I see it, nothing. In fact, you lose out on a lot of bonuses towards other skills for a very small to almost no benefit to focus one skill. I'm okay with not getting benefits from other lores, if I was actually rewarded in focusing 1 lore heavily.
Maybe I'm jumping the gun and overreacting because we only have a portion of the ELR changes they've made available to us....
-Drumpel
I know what you're saying, but to me it doesn't make sense to unnecessarily (for lack of a better word) force Wizards to dabble in all the Elemental Lores to get the same benefits. There should be some kind of "bonus" for being heavily trained.
I was thinking that 152 ranks of a single lore would put you in the heavy/master trained level and you should obtain extra benefits with continued training that make it worthwhile to pursue further training in said lore. I pick 152 ranks because you can use enhancives to obtain 50 ranks of a lore skill (correct me if I'm wrong) and if you train 101 ranks in two lores and were to hit 151 with enhancives, that would allow you master two lores - which you shouldn't be able to do.
After you hit 152 ranks and up, you should see something for the effort. Else, what's the point? So everyone trains 40 or 50 ranks per lore to obtain the most benefits with the least amount of diminishing return.....I don't like it.
If my wizard wants to be the best Earth mage possible, how does him getting a couple extra points of DS or % over someone that maybe hits 100 ranks of EL:E while my wizard hits 202 ranks? Nothing sets him out from the other wizard that's got half the lore skill.
Right now, I see greater benefits if I adjusted my 124 Earth Lore to 69 Earth Lore and 55 Air Lore. This would give me:
| Spell | Benefit |
| 905 | 69 Earth Lore and you get an extra +8 DS on 5 Seed Summation |
| 911 | 55 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra +10 to Dodge ranks on 1 Seed Summation |
| 501 | 55 Air Lore ranks and you get an extra 10% (?) chance to apply a "groggy" feeling if/when a target wakes up on 1 Seed Summation |
| 520 | 69 Earth Lore ranks and you get 6% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation |
This looks a lot better over just doing Earth Lore:
| Spell | Benefit |
| 905 | 124 Earth Lore and you get an extra +11 DS on 5 Seed Summation |
| 911 | 0 Air Lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
| 501 | 0 Air lore ranks and you get no extra bonus |
| 520 | 124 Earth Lore ranks and you get 9% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation |
The only main spell bonuses I would lose use of is Stone Fist (which is too mana intensive to use for hunting and not terribly effective against like level or higher creatures. So I'm not really losing anything. I don't swing a weapon so the minor loss of AS from Strength doesn't matter, either. How I see it, I don't really lose anything and I gain so much more if I change over to Air and Earth lore. I'd also gain use of Tonis bolt and currently (until 506 change is released) gain an extra push down for my Haste spell.
This is my problem. My extra efforts to focus my Wizard as an Earth mage is a complete waste of time based on how they have the system setup with the current changes they've shown us. I see this as coming down to every Wizard and their cousin training in each lore to achieve the most benefits with the least amount of diminishing return. No one is going to be different, everyone will have some extra benefit, but no one is going to excel in a lore since it's just not worth it. They should have just given all Wizards a spell that just adds a few extra points of dodge, DS and bolt AS and called it a night. I know they put a lot of time into this and I know we do appreciate the efforts they all put in, but it just seems all for naught from how I see it.
What is the point then of trying to "master" a lore skill over dabbling in all of them? Right now, as I see it, nothing. In fact, you lose out on a lot of bonuses towards other skills for a very small to almost no benefit to focus one skill. I'm okay with not getting benefits from other lores, if I was actually rewarded in focusing 1 lore heavily.
Maybe I'm jumping the gun and overreacting because we only have a portion of the ELR changes they've made available to us....
-Drumpel
| I know what you're saying, but to me it doesn't make sense to unnecessarily (for lack of a better word) force Wizards to dabble in all the Elemental Lores to get the same benefits. There should be some kind of "bonus" for being heavily trained. |
| -Drumpel |
I don't disagree with the idea that 2x in one lore should mean some pretty sweet perks for the mage dedicated to that element.
But two things to remember... your charts only show the changes so far. They are missing the established benefits and upcoming ones.
I'm looking forward to the changes to Tremors myself. Its my goto AOE disabler.
Chad, player of a few
A lot of the player base will stick to specific lores just because it increases the effectiveness of a particular abilities they want to use (mostly offensive).
Immolate will be the most deadly with 2x fire.
Rapid fire and major shock will be strongest with 2x air.
Enchanting will be fastest with water.
Swinging will have max AS with earth lore, as well as hurl boulder being as strong as possible.
The secondary benefits may be better if you spread yourself out, but there is definitely some appeal to specialization.
Immolate will be the most deadly with 2x fire.
Rapid fire and major shock will be strongest with 2x air.
Enchanting will be fastest with water.
Swinging will have max AS with earth lore, as well as hurl boulder being as strong as possible.
The secondary benefits may be better if you spread yourself out, but there is definitely some appeal to specialization.
While technically true, the bonus to major shock from air lore is not worth the opportunity costs. Which is Drumple's point. There should be nice cap stone abilities in the lore. Spirit lore has a few of these, where you get new functionality at 40 ranks, 60 ranks, etc...
Or at the very least have some things that aren't seed based so you get SOME benefit for the last 50 ranks. Currently, on almost all the abilities, you're getting peanuts for 150-200 range.
Look at sorc lores, they get basically everything they need from demonology with 50 ranks, then switch to necro for the rest, basically getting everything. I'm not sure this is good design as I thought one of the major goals was to create different training routes.
I, personally, think they really screwed up by making the lores 'branded'. Having water contain all the utility basically sucks. No one who hunts wants to be all utility. I would have much preferred if they tried to get some defense, some offense, some utility into each of the lores where appropriate.
(also, water lore on lockpicking makes no damn sense thematically, but whatever)
For what it is worth, of the 5 sorcerers I personally know the training of at and near cap, none of them are 40-60 demo and the rest necro.
Small sample size, and limited to those who are in the Rift around the hours that I am of course. Most of them view themselves as pure demonologist or necromancers and train accordingly. The spells they WANT to use are of more interest to them than the greater mechanical benefit of mixing it around. You could make 711 have it's own lore and I know one of them for sure would train in nothing but that one.
Tal.
Small sample size, and limited to those who are in the Rift around the hours that I am of course. Most of them view themselves as pure demonologist or necromancers and train accordingly. The spells they WANT to use are of more interest to them than the greater mechanical benefit of mixing it around. You could make 711 have it's own lore and I know one of them for sure would train in nothing but that one.
Tal.
>But two things to remember... your charts only show the changes so far. They are missing the established benefits and upcoming ones.
>Chad, player of a few
Okay, here's the chart if I were to only split up my 124 ranks of Elemental Lore to strictly Earth and Air; based on available released lore updates for ones that use Earth and Air lores:
Earth @ 69 ranks (169 skill)
Air @ 55 ranks (155 skill)
Here is strictly training in Earth Lores:
Earth @ 124 ranks (224 skill)
Air @ 0 ranks (0 skill)
I know some people will train to "specialize" their character, but if I stick strictly with Earth Lore - I get kind of hosed when you compare the differences between the two training paths for Lore in the charts above. The benefits to "master" a single lore is lackluster and kind of insulting. I still feel I'd be much better off and more balanced with going Earth and Air lore strictly based off the spells in the charts. I'd be better rounded for hunting mechanics this way. I don't utilize Haste very often (or enough in a short period of time) for the extra -20 second reduction time with 124 EL:E ranks and the small 2% bump to Tremors reduction to EBP, the 3 extra DS for 905 and 3% extra chance for 520 to flare is very disheartening. All the extra training to master (2x training) a lore and the gained benefits are pretty much nonexistent. True, I can forgo the benefits of air lore1
Game mechanics-wise, it would be better for me to train my Wizard as 69 Earth Lore and 55 Air lore. The game, when out and about hunting, is to not get hit when you play a Wizard. So far, balancing out lores to maximize the benefits from the spells with the least amount of diminishing returns seems to be a no brainer.
I greatly would love to see anyone that masters a single lore to receive boosted benefits since they've trained so hard to master 1 lore. Anyone else that decides to not master, gets the basic benefits towards whatever lores they've trained against.
If I missed a currently released or soon to be released spell were Earth and/or Air Lores add benefits to the spell, forgive me. I do hope I got them all.
-Drumpel
>Chad, player of a few
Okay, here's the chart if I were to only split up my 124 ranks of Elemental Lore to strictly Earth and Air; based on available released lore updates for ones that use Earth and Air lores:
Earth @ 69 ranks (169 skill)
Air @ 55 ranks (155 skill)
| Spell | Lore Ranks | Benefit |
| 905 | 69 Earth | you get an extra +8 DS on 5 Seed Summation |
| 911 | 55 Air | you get an extra +10 to Dodge ranks on 1 Seed Summation |
| 501 | 55 Air | you get an extra 10% (?) chance to apply a "groggy" feeling if/when a target wakes up on 1 Seed Summation |
| 505 | 55 Air | you get to use Tonis Bolt, plus some added DF to it |
| 506 | 55 Air & 69 Earth | gives -1 RT reduction & (once Haste update is released) -54 second duration on Haste 2 minute cooldown |
| 515 | 55 Air | gives 10% to reduce cast RT to 0 seconds |
| 520 | 69 Earth | you get 6% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation |
| 909 | 69 Earth | gives 5% + 8/2 (4%) penalty to EBP and add +2 charges (7 total) for self cast version |
| 950 | 55 Air | gives +1 daily use |
Here is strictly training in Earth Lores:
Earth @ 124 ranks (224 skill)
Air @ 0 ranks (0 skill)
| Spell | Lore Ranks | Benefit |
| 905 | 124 Earth | you get an extra +11 DS on 5 Seed Summation |
| 911 | 0 Air | you get no extra bonus |
| 501 | 0 Air | you get no extra bonus |
| 505 | 0 Air | you get no bolt spell version |
| 506 | 0 Air & 124 Earth | you get no extra bonus to RT reduction & -74 second duration on Haste 2 minute cooldown |
| 515 | 0 Air | you get no extra bonus |
| 520 | 124 Earth | you get 9% of a reactive flare if hit on 9 Seed Summation |
| 909 | 124 Earth | gives 5% + 12/2 (6%) penalty to EBP and add +4 charges (9 total) for self cast version |
| 950 | 0 Air | you get no extra bonus |
I know some people will train to "specialize" their character, but if I stick strictly with Earth Lore - I get kind of hosed when you compare the differences between the two training paths for Lore in the charts above. The benefits to "master" a single lore is lackluster and kind of insulting. I still feel I'd be much better off and more balanced with going Earth and Air lore strictly based off the spells in the charts. I'd be better rounded for hunting mechanics this way. I don't utilize Haste very often (or enough in a short period of time) for the extra -20 second reduction time with 124 EL:E ranks and the small 2% bump to Tremors reduction to EBP, the 3 extra DS for 905 and 3% extra chance for 520 to flare is very disheartening. All the extra training to master (2x training) a lore and the gained benefits are pretty much nonexistent. True, I can forgo the benefits of air lore1
Game mechanics-wise, it would be better for me to train my Wizard as 69 Earth Lore and 55 Air lore. The game, when out and about hunting, is to not get hit when you play a Wizard. So far, balancing out lores to maximize the benefits from the spells with the least amount of diminishing returns seems to be a no brainer.
I greatly would love to see anyone that masters a single lore to receive boosted benefits since they've trained so hard to master 1 lore. Anyone else that decides to not master, gets the basic benefits towards whatever lores they've trained against.
If I missed a currently released or soon to be released spell were Earth and/or Air Lores add benefits to the spell, forgive me. I do hope I got them all.
-Drumpel
You did not include how earth lore helps 509, 510, 518, 514, 414, 917, and 925.
It would be interesting to see another chart weighted more towards air lore. You could also include how not having enough ranks in earth lore would give no benefits.
In fact I have a mind to make a chart like yours for each build showing 2x, 1x + 1x, 1x + .5x + .5x, and all four lores at .5x, with nifty new possible post name skill titles for each build.
Maybe after everything is released.
Chad, player of a few
It would be interesting to see another chart weighted more towards air lore. You could also include how not having enough ranks in earth lore would give no benefits.
In fact I have a mind to make a chart like yours for each build showing 2x, 1x + 1x, 1x + .5x + .5x, and all four lores at .5x, with nifty new possible post name skill titles for each build.
Maybe after everything is released.
Chad, player of a few
>>You did not include how earth lore helps 509, 510, 518, 514, 414, 917, and 925.
There's not a whole lot new to the mentioned spells (that I'm aware of) aside from 414's chance to negate an AS/DS attack, so I didn't include them...or I didn't have time. I know the list I have is incomplete, but it should give a good idea of things.
>>In fact I have a mind to make a chart like yours for each build showing 2x, 1x + 1x, 1x + .5x + .5x, and all four lores at .5x, with nifty new possible post name skill titles for each build.
I was trying to work on putting together an excel spreedsheet so you can just plug in your Lore Ranks and all the benefits are automatically adjusted and filled in for you....but I lack the time to put towards it with working two jobs. Plus I'm not sure how to setup the calculations for adjusting the bonuses tied to the Summation Chart, so I'd have to spend more time trying to figure it out.
I did get a few of the more basic spells setup to show the benefits of lore training, ones with simple EL:X skill / 3 and so on, but the list is far from complete and I'm not sure I like the layout I started in the spreedsheet.
If anyone is really good with Excel, it shouldn't be too tough to do this...I'm just a novice, at best since I don't use it much.
-Drumpel
>>You did not include how earth lore helps 509, 510, 518, 514, 414, 917, and 925.
In a few days, we'll get news about Earth Lore benefits to 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 914.
See http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/192
Are there any spells left to benefit from anything other than Earth Lore?
In a few days, we'll get news about Earth Lore benefits to 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 914.
See http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/192
Are there any spells left to benefit from anything other than Earth Lore?
