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This is not a complaint or rant...just a question and a suggestion.
Is there a reason why for most of the spells currently you are only linking just one lore to a spell? If the goal is lore diversity wouldn't it be more beneficial to tie a couple of lores to most spells so you get an either or effect?
Examples of secondary lore benefits
earth lore to presence (402) to reduce ambush bonus...basically make every 2-3 ranks of earth lore cancel one rank of ambush for a detected creature.
Air lore to 403 to cause a chance to notice a trap on a armed box before you set it off...basically an at the last second you get a sense something is wrong and carefully remove your lockpick
Air lore to 404 to cause a chance to recognize a mistake and stop before setting off a trap
Cause 418 to have a chance of activating Mana Spellup (with appropriate cooldown) based on earth lore
etc
It just seems like if more spells had a couple of alternate lore benefits instead of just one, people would be more likely to diversify instead of min/max on one lore. The benefits don't even have to be something that constantly grows all the way to 100...if some lore benefits maxed out with 5-10 ranks, but were useful that would also serve diversity, because a fire mage might really want those 10 ranks of earth to get XYZ benefit.
>Is there a reason why for most of the spells currently you are only linking just one lore to a spell? If the goal is lore diversity wouldn't it be more beneficial to tie a couple of lores to most spells so you get an either or effect?
>Examples of secondary lore benefits
>earth lore to presence (402) to reduce ambush bonus...basically make every 2-3 ranks of earth lore cancel one rank of ambush for a detected creature.
>Air lore to 403 to cause a chance to notice a trap on a armed box before you set it off...basically an at the last second you get a sense something is wrong and carefully remove your lockpick
>Air lore to 404 to cause a chance to recognize a mistake and stop before setting off a trap
>Cause 418 to have a chance of activating Mana Spellup (with appropriate cooldown) based on earth lore
>etc
>It just seems like if more spells had a couple of alternate lore benefits instead of just one, people would be more likely to diversify instead of min/max on one lore. The benefits don't even have to be something that constantly grows all the way to 100...if some lore benefits maxed out with 5-10 ranks, but were useful that would also serve diversity, because a fire mage might really want those 10 ranks of earth to get XYZ benefit. -Goldenoak
https://38.media.tumblr.com/d077b82c40b4e7d29a94a467dc0adf6d/tumblr_mx3krlfyZg1qetpa1o1_400.gif
~ Methais
>Examples of secondary lore benefits
>earth lore to presence (402) to reduce ambush bonus...basically make every 2-3 ranks of earth lore cancel one rank of ambush for a detected creature.
>Air lore to 403 to cause a chance to notice a trap on a armed box before you set it off...basically an at the last second you get a sense something is wrong and carefully remove your lockpick
>Air lore to 404 to cause a chance to recognize a mistake and stop before setting off a trap
>Cause 418 to have a chance of activating Mana Spellup (with appropriate cooldown) based on earth lore
>etc
>It just seems like if more spells had a couple of alternate lore benefits instead of just one, people would be more likely to diversify instead of min/max on one lore. The benefits don't even have to be something that constantly grows all the way to 100...if some lore benefits maxed out with 5-10 ranks, but were useful that would also serve diversity, because a fire mage might really want those 10 ranks of earth to get XYZ benefit. -Goldenoak
https://38.media.tumblr.com/d077b82c40b4e7d29a94a467dc0adf6d/tumblr_mx3krlfyZg1qetpa1o1_400.gif
~ Methais
I'm more concerned that what we're seeing are not major changes to any spells, but rather additions of minor benefits attached to lore training. I really hope that doesn't continue into the MjE and Wizard circles. We need more than that. Many of our spells are worthless due to redundancy or poor functionality. Here's a list, to emphasize the point!
901/903/904/906/907/908/910/510 - Redundant. Could be consolidated into fewer spells that provide more versatility (minor ele bolt/ele bolt/major ele bolt/ele ball?)
905/913/503/507/508 - Redundant. Flavorless DS/TD boosters. Could be rolled into one spell or provide non-standard benefits to justify having 5 different spells that all boost DS and/or TD.
914 - Useless. Takes too long, does too little.
915 - Warding-based in a circle with no other warding spells, mana cost too high for the effect, which is rather underwhelming, albeit providing a unique benefit.
917 - Undeniably useful in the arena, and somewhat useful with lore training, but the base functionality is underwhelming and too costly for regular hunting.
502 - Completely useless due to removal of the mechanics it was based upon.
504 - Slow does not affect the immediate action RT of the target and costs the caster 3 seconds. Against most targets, there simply isn't a sufficient payoff to this spell as designed.
512 - Useless. Barely works, and we already have 909/912/410 which each offer unique benefits that actually work.
514 - Useless. Mana cost too high, spell is too slow, effects are not particularly impressive, even if the concept is interesting.
525 - Useless. Kills the caster, uncontrollable once cast, affects a broad area.
And then we have spells which are useful, but underutilized due to dated/poor design:
902 - Useful only to characters below level 8 who don't use enchanted weapons. We could do more with this spell.
909 - While the effect is unique and it does has some uses, it is rather underwhelming compared to 410 and the unique benefit of this spell is far less useful in general than 912.
918 - Unique! Has cool factor. But seems rather limited. I'm not sure what to do with this spell, but would prefer it have some additional benefits that are more broadly useful.
517 - Another spell unique to wizards. But also quite limited. Much the same as 918.
520 - Stone skin. While most wizards use this spell, most also seem to agree that it doesn't benefit us much for being a unique 20th level defense spell. This spell could do more!
I don't expect everyone to agree with every point I'm making here, but I think we can at least agree that the wizard and MjE circles feature a lot of spells that are underutilized or redundant. In my opinion, simply adding minor lore unlocks to these spells is not going to be a game-changer for the class. Many of them either need to be replaced entirely or overhauled to make them more useful.
For instance, sandstorm which already has a lore tie-in. That lore tie-in doesn't change the base functionality of the spell, which unfortunately doesn't work very well. I hope that is not the direction we should expect from the ELR.
~Taverkin
901/903/904/906/907/908/910/510 - Redundant. Could be consolidated into fewer spells that provide more versatility (minor ele bolt/ele bolt/major ele bolt/ele ball?)
905/913/503/507/508 - Redundant. Flavorless DS/TD boosters. Could be rolled into one spell or provide non-standard benefits to justify having 5 different spells that all boost DS and/or TD.
914 - Useless. Takes too long, does too little.
915 - Warding-based in a circle with no other warding spells, mana cost too high for the effect, which is rather underwhelming, albeit providing a unique benefit.
917 - Undeniably useful in the arena, and somewhat useful with lore training, but the base functionality is underwhelming and too costly for regular hunting.
502 - Completely useless due to removal of the mechanics it was based upon.
504 - Slow does not affect the immediate action RT of the target and costs the caster 3 seconds. Against most targets, there simply isn't a sufficient payoff to this spell as designed.
512 - Useless. Barely works, and we already have 909/912/410 which each offer unique benefits that actually work.
514 - Useless. Mana cost too high, spell is too slow, effects are not particularly impressive, even if the concept is interesting.
525 - Useless. Kills the caster, uncontrollable once cast, affects a broad area.
And then we have spells which are useful, but underutilized due to dated/poor design:
902 - Useful only to characters below level 8 who don't use enchanted weapons. We could do more with this spell.
909 - While the effect is unique and it does has some uses, it is rather underwhelming compared to 410 and the unique benefit of this spell is far less useful in general than 912.
918 - Unique! Has cool factor. But seems rather limited. I'm not sure what to do with this spell, but would prefer it have some additional benefits that are more broadly useful.
517 - Another spell unique to wizards. But also quite limited. Much the same as 918.
520 - Stone skin. While most wizards use this spell, most also seem to agree that it doesn't benefit us much for being a unique 20th level defense spell. This spell could do more!
I don't expect everyone to agree with every point I'm making here, but I think we can at least agree that the wizard and MjE circles feature a lot of spells that are underutilized or redundant. In my opinion, simply adding minor lore unlocks to these spells is not going to be a game-changer for the class. Many of them either need to be replaced entirely or overhauled to make them more useful.
For instance, sandstorm which already has a lore tie-in. That lore tie-in doesn't change the base functionality of the spell, which unfortunately doesn't work very well. I hope that is not the direction we should expect from the ELR.
~Taverkin
Well, you've already seen my thoughts on bolts/balls/waves/grasps/cocoons and so on.
Hasn't happened either time they had the opportunity to re-do things, don't see it coming now.
Don't be too hasty to chuck out the piecemeal defensive spells, either.
If you only have one defensive spell--but it's a doozey!--to lose to a Dispel, there's a much smaller field of spells to be chosen from when you DO get Dispelled.
Now with that said... combining the ElemDef1/2/3 into a single, growing spell? No real problems with that. Neither with SpiritDefense1/2, either. RepelUndead1/2/3/True finally went the way of the chopping block, why not these?
Hasn't happened either time they had the opportunity to re-do things, don't see it coming now.
Don't be too hasty to chuck out the piecemeal defensive spells, either.
If you only have one defensive spell--but it's a doozey!--to lose to a Dispel, there's a much smaller field of spells to be chosen from when you DO get Dispelled.
Now with that said... combining the ElemDef1/2/3 into a single, growing spell? No real problems with that. Neither with SpiritDefense1/2, either. RepelUndead1/2/3/True finally went the way of the chopping block, why not these?
<<
901/903/904/906/907/908/910/510 - Redundant. Could be consolidated into fewer spells that provide more versatility (minor ele bolt/ele bolt/major ele bolt/ele ball?)
>>
Agreed. Too many spells that do the same thing...often even for same element. They should be consolidated and given casting settings.
<<
905/913/503/507/508 - Redundant. Flavorless DS/TD boosters. Could be rolled into one spell or provide non-standard benefits to justify having 5 different spells that all boost DS and/or TD.
>>
Again, I agree...at least somewhat. If lore provides additional benefits to the spells to make them different then that could be enough in some cases.
<<
502 - Completely useless due to removal of the mechanics it was based upon.>>
Definitely agree here. This would be a good spot for a CS based spell that works like thought lash but for a random/attuned element. IE a minor damage spell that boosts or flares off of subsequent casts of given element type.
I think overall most circles have a lot of redundancy and without a full rewrite of the given circles it probably won't ever change...which means its not likely to be fixed any time soon.
901/903/904/906/907/908/910/510 - Redundant. Could be consolidated into fewer spells that provide more versatility (minor ele bolt/ele bolt/major ele bolt/ele ball?)
>>
Agreed. Too many spells that do the same thing...often even for same element. They should be consolidated and given casting settings.
<<
905/913/503/507/508 - Redundant. Flavorless DS/TD boosters. Could be rolled into one spell or provide non-standard benefits to justify having 5 different spells that all boost DS and/or TD.
>>
Again, I agree...at least somewhat. If lore provides additional benefits to the spells to make them different then that could be enough in some cases.
<<
502 - Completely useless due to removal of the mechanics it was based upon.>>
Definitely agree here. This would be a good spot for a CS based spell that works like thought lash but for a random/attuned element. IE a minor damage spell that boosts or flares off of subsequent casts of given element type.
I think overall most circles have a lot of redundancy and without a full rewrite of the given circles it probably won't ever change...which means its not likely to be fixed any time soon.
I figure maybe I should provide a further example of the sort of thing I would like to see. Let's use sandstorm as the example again and work under the assumption that we're sticking with the sandstorm concept rather than designing a spell to replace it.
So, the problem with sandstorm? You cast, then you wait, then it hits and it generally doesn't hit very hard. Even if it did hit harder, the fact that it's cast and wait leaves the caster vulnerable. Other options don't share this vulnerability, hit harder, and usually cost less mana besides. Thus the spell rarely gets used.
So how could we change this? Well, whatever we do, ideally it would address the shortcomings that lead to the spell being underutilized. So, here's an example of how sandstorm could be useful:
What if when you cast sandstorm, all affected targets view the caster and his group as if they were in hiding? This would be a unique effect appropriate to a sandstorm that somewhat mitigates the vulnerability issue. Now the enemy needs to search for you before they can attack you, giving you time to follow up with another spell.
As noted, we already have damage-dealing abilities and while sandstorm could definitely use a boost in this department, we could also choose to approach this in a different way. What if sandstorm caused status effects such as blurred vision (-AS), hindered movement (+RT), increased chance of spell failure, etc.?
Do you think if sandstorm worked this way you would use it? I mean, I know I would! It would be a great opener for swarms because you could walk in and cast, obscuring yourself to negate the first attack round from every enemy in the room. Then you could continue your normal attack routine and the various status effects would come into play. At that point, it's not even necessary that sandstorm be particularly deadly. We have plenty of other spells for raw killing power. We use sandstorm because it provides unique defensive effects and doesn't leave us vulnerable in the attempt!
See what I mean? This is the sort of stuff I want to see, and I'm really starting to feel that it's a longshot. Little consideration is being given to addressing the existing problems with spells that lead to their underutilization. Instead, we seem to be slapping minor enhancements on to justify a lore tie-in. Trying not to feel discouraged.
~Taverkin
So, the problem with sandstorm? You cast, then you wait, then it hits and it generally doesn't hit very hard. Even if it did hit harder, the fact that it's cast and wait leaves the caster vulnerable. Other options don't share this vulnerability, hit harder, and usually cost less mana besides. Thus the spell rarely gets used.
So how could we change this? Well, whatever we do, ideally it would address the shortcomings that lead to the spell being underutilized. So, here's an example of how sandstorm could be useful:
What if when you cast sandstorm, all affected targets view the caster and his group as if they were in hiding? This would be a unique effect appropriate to a sandstorm that somewhat mitigates the vulnerability issue. Now the enemy needs to search for you before they can attack you, giving you time to follow up with another spell.
As noted, we already have damage-dealing abilities and while sandstorm could definitely use a boost in this department, we could also choose to approach this in a different way. What if sandstorm caused status effects such as blurred vision (-AS), hindered movement (+RT), increased chance of spell failure, etc.?
Do you think if sandstorm worked this way you would use it? I mean, I know I would! It would be a great opener for swarms because you could walk in and cast, obscuring yourself to negate the first attack round from every enemy in the room. Then you could continue your normal attack routine and the various status effects would come into play. At that point, it's not even necessary that sandstorm be particularly deadly. We have plenty of other spells for raw killing power. We use sandstorm because it provides unique defensive effects and doesn't leave us vulnerable in the attempt!
See what I mean? This is the sort of stuff I want to see, and I'm really starting to feel that it's a longshot. Little consideration is being given to addressing the existing problems with spells that lead to their underutilization. Instead, we seem to be slapping minor enhancements on to justify a lore tie-in. Trying not to feel discouraged.
~Taverkin
<Well, you've already seen my thoughts on bolts/balls/waves/grasps/cocoons and so on.
<Hasn't happened either time they had the opportunity to re-do things, don't see it coming now.
<Don't be too hasty to chuck out the piecemeal defensive spells, either.
<If you only have one defensive spell--but it's a doozey!--to lose to a Dispel, there's a much smaller field of spells to be chosen from when you DO get Dispelled.
<Now with that said... combining the ElemDef1/2/3 into a single, growing spell? No real problems with that. Neither with SpiritDefense1/2, either. RepelUndead1/2/3/True finally went the way of <the chopping block, why not these?
Oh, I would definitely prefer that we add non-conventional defenses to these spells to justify having them. I don't propose we roll them all into a single spell. I just don't see why we need so many spells that all do more or less the same thing.
~Taverkin
<Hasn't happened either time they had the opportunity to re-do things, don't see it coming now.
<Don't be too hasty to chuck out the piecemeal defensive spells, either.
<If you only have one defensive spell--but it's a doozey!--to lose to a Dispel, there's a much smaller field of spells to be chosen from when you DO get Dispelled.
<Now with that said... combining the ElemDef1/2/3 into a single, growing spell? No real problems with that. Neither with SpiritDefense1/2, either. RepelUndead1/2/3/True finally went the way of <the chopping block, why not these?
Oh, I would definitely prefer that we add non-conventional defenses to these spells to justify having them. I don't propose we roll them all into a single spell. I just don't see why we need so many spells that all do more or less the same thing.
~Taverkin
| Taverkin |
| See what I mean? This is the sort of stuff I want to see, and I'm really starting to feel that it's a longshot. Little consideration is being given to addressing the existing problems with spells that lead to their underutilization. Instead, we seem to be slapping minor enhancements on to justify a lore tie-in. Trying not to feel discouraged. |
This is the Elemental Lore Review, not the Elemental Spell Review. We are revising the base functionality of a few spells, but ultimately, that is not our goal.
GameMaster Estild
<This is the Elemental Lore Review, not the Elemental Spell Review. We are revising the base functionality of a few spells, but ultimately, that is not our goal.
In that case I wish you hadn't decided to revise rapid fire, immolate, and haste. I really think we're going to need rather more than what we're delivering here in exchange for drastically changing the 3 existing wizard specializations.
~Taverkin
In that case I wish you hadn't decided to revise rapid fire, immolate, and haste. I really think we're going to need rather more than what we're delivering here in exchange for drastically changing the 3 existing wizard specializations.
~Taverkin
<<
This is the Elemental Lore Review, not the Elemental Spell Review. We are revising the base functionality of a few spells, but ultimately, that is not our goal.
GameMaster Estild
>>
Disappointing! We're going to get lore tie-ins, while the glaring issues are ignored. If all we're going to get out of this are nerfs and things that people aren't interested in. Why bother doing anything at all?
It may be titled the ELR, but they're released during HSN, where other professions (Sorcerers) saw Spell Reviews. Why wouldn't Wizards get that same benefit? This is just getting worse and worse.
This is the Elemental Lore Review, not the Elemental Spell Review. We are revising the base functionality of a few spells, but ultimately, that is not our goal.
GameMaster Estild
>>
Disappointing! We're going to get lore tie-ins, while the glaring issues are ignored. If all we're going to get out of this are nerfs and things that people aren't interested in. Why bother doing anything at all?
It may be titled the ELR, but they're released during HSN, where other professions (Sorcerers) saw Spell Reviews. Why wouldn't Wizards get that same benefit? This is just getting worse and worse.
<<This is the Elemental Lore Review, not the Elemental Spell Review. We are revising the base functionality of a few spells, but ultimately, that is not our goal.
GameMaster Estild>>
Is there an ongoing, or near future plan for an actual Elemental Spell review...or any other spell review? Not asking for details...though I wouldn't complain...just asking if its something probable in the near future.
GameMaster Estild>>
Is there an ongoing, or near future plan for an actual Elemental Spell review...or any other spell review? Not asking for details...though I wouldn't complain...just asking if its something probable in the near future.
<Is there an ongoing, or near future plan for an actual Elemental Spell review...or any other spell review? Not asking for details...though I wouldn't complain...just asking if its something <probable in the near future.
Good question. Did you mention an "Elemental Spell Review" as a snappy retort to my criticisms? Or is there an actual plan for such a review in the near future?
You may recall one of my initial concerns when the nerfs were announced is that I didn't want the 90s sorcerer treatment all over again. That is to say the "nerf now, fix later" routine. Yet now you seem to be indicating that you do intend to nerf now and fix later? If so, how much later? Do we have a ballpark timeframe on this? And have you considered the possibility of holding off on your nerfing until you have a better idea of where the wizard class is going?
~Taverkin
Good question. Did you mention an "Elemental Spell Review" as a snappy retort to my criticisms? Or is there an actual plan for such a review in the near future?
You may recall one of my initial concerns when the nerfs were announced is that I didn't want the 90s sorcerer treatment all over again. That is to say the "nerf now, fix later" routine. Yet now you seem to be indicating that you do intend to nerf now and fix later? If so, how much later? Do we have a ballpark timeframe on this? And have you considered the possibility of holding off on your nerfing until you have a better idea of where the wizard class is going?
~Taverkin
| Taverkin |
| In that case I wish you hadn't decided to revise rapid fire, immolate, and haste. I really think we're going to need rather more than what we're delivering here in exchange for drastically changing the 3 existing wizard specializations. |
If only there was more to come.
GameMaster Estild
<If only there was more to come.
Believe me, Estild. I hope my concerns are completely unwarranted. I hope you prove me so wrong that I'm eating my words for years to come! And I promise if that turns out to be the case, I don't hold grudges. I'll be singing your praises for all of those years! But I am concerned.
Waiting and seeing.
~Taverkin
Believe me, Estild. I hope my concerns are completely unwarranted. I hope you prove me so wrong that I'm eating my words for years to come! And I promise if that turns out to be the case, I don't hold grudges. I'll be singing your praises for all of those years! But I am concerned.
Waiting and seeing.
~Taverkin
| Taverkin |
| Believe me, Estild. I hope my concerns are completely unwarranted. I hope you prove me so wrong that I'm eating my words for years to come! And I promise if that turns out to be the case, I don't hold grudges. I'll be singing your praises for all of those years! But I am concerned. |
| Waiting and seeing. |
Well, there are some significant (positive) updates to a few existing spells and a few completely new spells. However, whether you think they will outweigh the other previously mentioned adjustments will remain to be seen. I should have more concrete details to share in the near future.
GameMaster Estild
<Well, there are some significant (positive) updates to a few existing spells and a few completely new spells. However, whether you think they will outweigh the other previously mentioned <adjustments will remain to be seen. I should have more concrete details to share in the near future.
<GameMaster Estild
I can't wait to hear those details!
~Taverkin
<GameMaster Estild
I can't wait to hear those details!
~Taverkin
>>502 - Completely useless due to removal of the mechanics it was based upon.>>
>>Definitely agree here. This would be a good spot for a CS based spell that works like thought lash but for a random/attuned element. IE a minor damage spell that boosts or flares off of subsequent casts of given element type.
Steam based CS spell (we are way lacking in steam) with the possibility of additional damage based on fire and water lores?
>>Definitely agree here. This would be a good spot for a CS based spell that works like thought lash but for a random/attuned element. IE a minor damage spell that boosts or flares off of subsequent casts of given element type.
Steam based CS spell (we are way lacking in steam) with the possibility of additional damage based on fire and water lores?
<<Steam based CS spell (we are way lacking in steam) with the possibility of additional damage based on fire and water lores?>>
Here is the post from way back on the change to 903. If they keep to the post this spell will unlock minor steam at 20 ranks. I guess I personally question why it takes 20 ranks since most people who have 20 ranks in a lore will not likely use this spell in favor of more powerful ones...
at least thats my assumption..but I could be wrong.
Minor Water (903):
Overt: Water
Training in Elemental Lore, Water grants a 20% chance to soak the target of a successful hit. The chance increases by 1% per 2 skill bonus, for a maximum 100% chance at 160 EL:W skill bonus (60 ranks). Soaked targets have an additional 30% chance to be affected by stun-shock effects, and stun-shock effects last an additional 3 seconds when applied to soaked targets.
Training in Elemental Lore, Water also unlocks the ability to create temporary watery conditions in the room for 30 seconds with an open cast at 25 EL:W ranks.
Training in Elemental Lore, Fire unlocks the ability to CHANNEL this spell to cast Minor Steam at the cost of 1 additional mana at 20 EL:F ranks.
Here is the post from way back on the change to 903. If they keep to the post this spell will unlock minor steam at 20 ranks. I guess I personally question why it takes 20 ranks since most people who have 20 ranks in a lore will not likely use this spell in favor of more powerful ones...
at least thats my assumption..but I could be wrong.
Minor Water (903):
Overt: Water
Training in Elemental Lore, Water grants a 20% chance to soak the target of a successful hit. The chance increases by 1% per 2 skill bonus, for a maximum 100% chance at 160 EL:W skill bonus (60 ranks). Soaked targets have an additional 30% chance to be affected by stun-shock effects, and stun-shock effects last an additional 3 seconds when applied to soaked targets.
Training in Elemental Lore, Water also unlocks the ability to create temporary watery conditions in the room for 30 seconds with an open cast at 25 EL:W ranks.
Training in Elemental Lore, Fire unlocks the ability to CHANNEL this spell to cast Minor Steam at the cost of 1 additional mana at 20 EL:F ranks.
