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ReplyI have another idea, one that is unrelated to that which sleken has hereby forbidden. The signs in shops do alright, but could we instead have our shopkeeper inform a buyer who attempts to 'GET' an item about the properties we'd like known. Right now that person would see that the item costs 1 million is 4x, sanctified, and heavily crit weighted as per bard/warrior. Following that could we have possibly a sentence to say that it is also unlocked and has a pocket in the hilt.
I would think this would tidy up signs a bit as once an item is sold the information is no longer there to add confusion. I know this is adding a lot more written words overall for the shop to keep track of, but I find that many items simply sit on the shelves because no one knows what they do. Could also let us loresing items in other people's shops.
Lochiven
<<I have another idea, one that is unrelated to that which sleken has hereby forbidden. The signs in shops do alright, but could we instead have our shopkeeper inform a buyer who attempts to 'GET' an item about the properties we'd like known. Right now that person would see that the item costs 1 million is 4x, sanctified, and heavily crit weighted as per bard/warrior. Following that could we have possibly a sentence to say that it is also unlocked and has a pocket in the hilt.
I'm afraid to say this would probably be extremely hard to do. Every GM that makes an item able to be unlocked or special things like hilted pockets does them in a different manner. There's really no one specific way that handles all of that. So every script on an item that makes the item do that special thing is going to be different.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
I'm afraid to say this would probably be extremely hard to do. Every GM that makes an item able to be unlocked or special things like hilted pockets does them in a different manner. There's really no one specific way that handles all of that. So every script on an item that makes the item do that special thing is going to be different.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
>I'm afraid to say this would probably be extremely hard to do. Every GM that makes an item able to be unlocked or special things like hilted pockets does them in a different manner. There's really no one specific way that handles all of that. So every script on an item that makes the item do that special thing is going to be different.
Er I think you might have misunderstood. Instead of relying on a sign let us as players type in our input on a per item basis, which a buyer would only see when they tried to get the item they were interested in.
Current messaging.
>get mach
Looking closely at the mithglin machete, you see that it will cost 90000 coins.
It imparts a bonus of +15 more than usual.
It has been infused with the power of an earth elemental.
You'll have to buy it if you want it.
>Add custom input at the bottom, unproven with the same restrictions as the sign.
The shopkeeper approaches you and says, "That item also is as light as can be and has a pocket in its hilt."
>get long
Looking closely at the burnished ruic longbow, you see that it will cost 250000 coins.
It imparts a bonus of +20 more than usual.
You'll have to buy it if you want it.
The shopkeeper approaches you and says, "Zested as well for lean, raise, rub, and point."
Another thought, would it be possible to have a flag to have a bell installed in the shop for someone to page the owner if they're online.
Lochiven
> I'm just putting out ideas which may spur additional conversation, ideas, etc. and which may or may not be used now or in the future. My only expectation at this time is that we may see something that looks like a shop enhancement release within the next 2 week to 5 year timeframe.
Sooner than five years unless I get hit by a bus. It's not close enough to completion for me to give an exact time frame though - I have a lot of testing to do before I release any modified rent collection / repossession code into the wild.
~V
Sooner than five years unless I get hit by a bus. It's not close enough to completion for me to give an exact time frame though - I have a lot of testing to do before I release any modified rent collection / repossession code into the wild.
~V
> Er I think you might have misunderstood. Instead of relying on a sign let us as players type in our input on a per item basis, which a buyer would only see when they tried to get the item they were interested in.
I like it. Shop signs aren't a hassle if you have consistent piles (wiregrass, alchemy items, etc) but it can be annoying to have to change the whole sign if you add/remove one new thing. It's probably the reason why you'd be hard-pressed to find a single up-to-date sign.
Syntax-wise something like this, maybe?
SHOP SELL 10000 ON TABLE WITH NOTE It holds 150lbs
Also, just to address the "extra item slot" issue: What I'm personally asking for is not REALLY more slots, I'd just like to be able to stack items which are currently not stackable. For example, I'd really like to provide a lot of LM components for people to buy on the cheap (something like 250-500 coins) but the item slot is valuable. Right now I've got 9 slots taken up with one LM component:
On a heavy wooden desk...
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
I'd really like to sell these vials too, but between the two, that's practically a whole shop room for two distinct items:
a black leather silver-buckled toolkit (registered) (marked)
a pair of slender vaalin calipers
a superior wooden wedge
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
I really do have much much more (my toolkit has 10 more vials BUNDLEd into it for my own personal use). The stacking structure of shops is such that I have a greater incentive to pawn these things for 50 coins instead of making them available to other players. There really is more benefit to other players than there is to myself in this scenario. With 15 character slots, I've already got a lot of locker space if I want it.
I like it. Shop signs aren't a hassle if you have consistent piles (wiregrass, alchemy items, etc) but it can be annoying to have to change the whole sign if you add/remove one new thing. It's probably the reason why you'd be hard-pressed to find a single up-to-date sign.
Syntax-wise something like this, maybe?
SHOP SELL 10000 ON TABLE WITH NOTE It holds 150lbs
Also, just to address the "extra item slot" issue: What I'm personally asking for is not REALLY more slots, I'd just like to be able to stack items which are currently not stackable. For example, I'd really like to provide a lot of LM components for people to buy on the cheap (something like 250-500 coins) but the item slot is valuable. Right now I've got 9 slots taken up with one LM component:
On a heavy wooden desk...
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
a small dark crystal: 2000 (1)
I'd really like to sell these vials too, but between the two, that's practically a whole shop room for two distinct items:
a black leather silver-buckled toolkit (registered) (marked)
a pair of slender vaalin calipers
a superior wooden wedge
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
a clear glass vial of light yellow acid
I really do have much much more (my toolkit has 10 more vials BUNDLEd into it for my own personal use). The stacking structure of shops is such that I have a greater incentive to pawn these things for 50 coins instead of making them available to other players. There really is more benefit to other players than there is to myself in this scenario. With 15 character slots, I've already got a lot of locker space if I want it.
<<It's an interesting idea, but if the owner wants to be paged, they can just turn on the amunet. :) ~V>>
Most people do not use the amunet.
I would even say most shop-owners are not in the same town as their shop.
There are a lot of alt characters created specifically to own a shop.
<<I'd much rather shops be used as shops so that enough are available for those that want to use them. SGM Sleken>>
How do you feel about changing the 3% fee for selling an item to a 3% fee for listing an item.
There are shops that have items listed for 999,999,900 silvers.
Many shops have overpriced items that haven't moved in a long time.
It would also encourage people to have more interaction when buying or selling because it would be cheaper.
A 3% stocking fee would be pretty bad. Here's a few issues:
Repeated pulling and listing would be costly if you have buyers who want to see an item before buying (especially high-end).
Shouldn't you be able to list an item in your shop for sale whether or not you have a low bank account balance?
What if you want to re-organize your shop and move items around?
It drives the incentive for people to sell stockpiles of cheap items and there will be far fewer interesting items listed.
If you stockpile (for your own use), say 500k worth of imbeds, and you incur around 50k worth of fees for listing, that's not a big deal. Probably <1k per day.
The main reason you see some of these 999mil items in shops is people just want to display them (gallery style). Personally, I don't think the stockpiling issue is that out of hand. I went premium mostly because I stockpile a bit. Even if I take 10 slots for personal stockpiles, in a 3-room shop, I've still got ~85% of my shop available for sold goods.
Repeated pulling and listing would be costly if you have buyers who want to see an item before buying (especially high-end).
Shouldn't you be able to list an item in your shop for sale whether or not you have a low bank account balance?
What if you want to re-organize your shop and move items around?
It drives the incentive for people to sell stockpiles of cheap items and there will be far fewer interesting items listed.
If you stockpile (for your own use), say 500k worth of imbeds, and you incur around 50k worth of fees for listing, that's not a big deal. Probably <1k per day.
The main reason you see some of these 999mil items in shops is people just want to display them (gallery style). Personally, I don't think the stockpiling issue is that out of hand. I went premium mostly because I stockpile a bit. Even if I take 10 slots for personal stockpiles, in a 3-room shop, I've still got ~85% of my shop available for sold goods.
<<Repeated pulling and listing would be costly if you have buyers who want to see an item before buying (especially high-end).>>
<<What if you want to re-organize your shop and move items around?>>
If you restock the item within 24 hours there is no additional fee.
<<Shouldn't you be able to list an item in your shop for sale whether or not you have a low bank account balance?>>
<<It drives the incentive for people to sell stockpiles of cheap items and there will be far fewer interesting items listed.>>
It costs money to buy the shop permit, it costs money to buy the shop containers.
There are up front fees if you want to own and operate a shop.
What is the old saying, it takes money to make money?
It makes no difference to a person who plans to sell the item, because the fee would be paid when the item sold.
It will make those who want to use shops as lockers consider the cost for not using their shop as it is intended.
You're still paying the same fee as you would today.
How about working shops into the mail system?
Buyer enters shops, sees item, doesn't like the price, but makes an offer.
Seller logs on, checks his shop and sees the offer and accepts the offer.
The item is packaged and mailed to the buyer, a small fee is taken from the seller and the balance is paid to the shop.
No more tracking down a shop owner, no more tracking down a seller.
>HAGGLE 500 on longsword
A shop attendant comes over and says, "You want to make an offer of 500 silvers on a longsword?" HAGGLE CONFIRM within 30 seconds to confirm your offer and send a note to the shop owner.
>HAGGLE CONFIRM
A shop attendant writes your offer on a piece of spare parchment and readies it for the shop owner.
Shop owner comes into his shop.
>HAGGLE STATUS
You have an offer of 500 silvers on a longsword. HAGGLE ACCEPT 1 to sell.
>HAGGLE ACCEPT 1
You instruct the shop attendant to sell the longsword for 500 silvers and he packages the item for delivery.
<<If you restock the item within 24 hours there is no additional fee.>>
It sounds like shop upgrades are a medium priority update. If you want NEW FEATURES and NEW CONVENIENCES, why advocate for a system that provides NO BENEFITS and requires a substantial development effort? (Tracking a list of all items which have been placed for sale in shops in the past 24 hrs and cross-referencing against that list). Especially when it's purely speculative whether or not it would even improve anything at all.
Big speculation, lots of extra work, no obvious pay off, very high likelihood of just making all shop owners mad.
<<How about working shops into the mail system?>>
Not a bad idea but between thought networks (amunet and third-party), forums (official and unofficial), and the close-knit community, I've never had trouble locating a shop owner. If it's easy to implement, I'd be happy to see it. Though, I'm pretty sure player mail was in beta in like 2010 and was conspicuously missing from goals this year (if memory serves). That could mean everything or nothing.
Anyway, always down for discussion and brainstorming but I'm only interested in advocating for things that have a high benefit-to-dev-time ratio.
It sounds like shop upgrades are a medium priority update. If you want NEW FEATURES and NEW CONVENIENCES, why advocate for a system that provides NO BENEFITS and requires a substantial development effort? (Tracking a list of all items which have been placed for sale in shops in the past 24 hrs and cross-referencing against that list). Especially when it's purely speculative whether or not it would even improve anything at all.
Big speculation, lots of extra work, no obvious pay off, very high likelihood of just making all shop owners mad.
<<How about working shops into the mail system?>>
Not a bad idea but between thought networks (amunet and third-party), forums (official and unofficial), and the close-knit community, I've never had trouble locating a shop owner. If it's easy to implement, I'd be happy to see it. Though, I'm pretty sure player mail was in beta in like 2010 and was conspicuously missing from goals this year (if memory serves). That could mean everything or nothing.
Anyway, always down for discussion and brainstorming but I'm only interested in advocating for things that have a high benefit-to-dev-time ratio.
<<How about working shops into the mail system?>>
<<Not a bad idea but between thought networks (amunet and third-party), forums (official and unofficial), and the close-knit community, I've never had trouble locating a shop owner.>>
Thought networks require you to be logged in at the same time as the shop owner.
Forums are useful, but not everyone uses them.
<<Fees>>
<<Big speculation, lots of extra work, no obvious pay off, very high likelihood of just making all shop owners mad.>>
I do agree that people will gripe if it costs them more to maintain their shop.
I can't think of another way to encourage people to use their shops to sell items.
Since shops are limited, is it a good idea to make the system work in a way to encourage people to share them?
If you could start over, how would you design shops?
I think the question is: what is the vision for an item slot in a locker and what is the vision for an item slot in a shop?
Consider how things can be stockpiled in either:
Locker - No inherent stockpiling mechanism. Gem and alchemy components can be stocked through the jar system.
Player shops - Some common magical items, alchemy products, off-the-shelf items, and herbs stack natively. Jars can be used to "stack" gems but makes for clumsy sales.
Why is there disparity? Why don't they just get unified into a system that's shop-like and just add-in stacking of other items like gems and LM components? I can say with confidence that it would get rid of shop stockpiling. People who want to sell things will get a shop, people who just want to stockpile things won't. My shop is mostly composed of items which are priced to sell (basically all <250k, most under 100k), probably turned out ~1 mil revenue this month, and I have a pretty decent personal-use stockpile in there as well. I don't WANT it there. That's just where it works. If I could stack all of that stuff in my locker, it would be there immediately.
The main driving force behind stockpiles is that people don't like repeated searches for specific items on a regular basis (even if wiregrass haste imbeds are available all over). Most people prefer to buy a bulk batch of 50, stock them, keep a surplus, and just pull them whenever they want. It's a tedium thing. People make locker character to store all of their junk. There's also a finite pool of names.
That's really the only thing I would do. For one reason or another, this sort of locker space is considered to be too great of a mechanical advantage or something? I really don't know.
Consider how things can be stockpiled in either:
Locker - No inherent stockpiling mechanism. Gem and alchemy components can be stocked through the jar system.
Player shops - Some common magical items, alchemy products, off-the-shelf items, and herbs stack natively. Jars can be used to "stack" gems but makes for clumsy sales.
Why is there disparity? Why don't they just get unified into a system that's shop-like and just add-in stacking of other items like gems and LM components? I can say with confidence that it would get rid of shop stockpiling. People who want to sell things will get a shop, people who just want to stockpile things won't. My shop is mostly composed of items which are priced to sell (basically all <250k, most under 100k), probably turned out ~1 mil revenue this month, and I have a pretty decent personal-use stockpile in there as well. I don't WANT it there. That's just where it works. If I could stack all of that stuff in my locker, it would be there immediately.
The main driving force behind stockpiles is that people don't like repeated searches for specific items on a regular basis (even if wiregrass haste imbeds are available all over). Most people prefer to buy a bulk batch of 50, stock them, keep a surplus, and just pull them whenever they want. It's a tedium thing. People make locker character to store all of their junk. There's also a finite pool of names.
That's really the only thing I would do. For one reason or another, this sort of locker space is considered to be too great of a mechanical advantage or something? I really don't know.
I agree with your assessment of the problem 100%.
People have too much stuff and not enough places to put it.
We have been refused additional locker and shop space.
Where do you go from there?
Players with hundreds, if not thousands of items.
The problem is made worse if you're a basic account, you get one character, one 50-80 item locker and possibly a 25 item shop.
Does that encourage you to upgrade to a premium account?
Is that why we can't have more space?
Is it hard on the server?
Is there not enough equipment to store the information?
I've been thinking what to do with all the "junk" that people no longer use.
The item still has a purpose, but you need somewhere to put it.
Lockers are for items you want to keep at all costs.
Shops are an additional place to put them, but.
What do you do when nobody wants it and it just sits there, forever?
> There are a lot of alt characters created specifically to own a shop
Well, if the owning character isn't logged in, they wouldn't be paged anyway...
Whether the amunet is being used for this or not, I don't really see a benefit to coding a system that could be accomplished through existing means.
~V
Well, if the owning character isn't logged in, they wouldn't be paged anyway...
Whether the amunet is being used for this or not, I don't really see a benefit to coding a system that could be accomplished through existing means.
~V
> It sounds like shop upgrades are a medium priority update. If you want NEW FEATURES and NEW CONVENIENCES, why advocate for a system that provides NO BENEFITS and requires a substantial development effort? (Tracking a list of all items which have been placed for sale in shops in the past 24 hrs and cross-referencing against that list). Especially when it's purely speculative whether or not it would even improve anything at all.
Medium priority is about right.
Tracking an item that's been added and pulled over that time wouldn't actually be too difficult by itself, but the effort comes in rearranging all the back end code that already handles the selling fees. I see the OP's point about dis-incentivizing the use of shop space as locker space, though, and I'm open to ideas on that front. Unless someone has a brainstorm that everyone agrees on and would be simple to code, though, it's not making it into this update. :)
~V
Medium priority is about right.
Tracking an item that's been added and pulled over that time wouldn't actually be too difficult by itself, but the effort comes in rearranging all the back end code that already handles the selling fees. I see the OP's point about dis-incentivizing the use of shop space as locker space, though, and I'm open to ideas on that front. Unless someone has a brainstorm that everyone agrees on and would be simple to code, though, it's not making it into this update. :)
~V
> I'm pretty sure player mail was in beta in like 2010 and was conspicuously missing from goals this year (if memory serves). That could mean everything or nothing.
I don't know the current status on the mail system. I'll poke into it and see how it's shaking out; if there's a way to tie into it to send a message to a shop owner, I can certainly put that on the requested features list.
~V
I don't know the current status on the mail system. I'll poke into it and see how it's shaking out; if there's a way to tie into it to send a message to a shop owner, I can certainly put that on the requested features list.
~V
<<Well, if the owning character isn't logged in, they wouldn't be paged anyway...>>
That seems like a failed design and places a burden on the players to be logged in at the same time.
Wouldn't a system that works 24/7 work better for all players?
<<Whether the amunet is being used for this or not>>
Many people no longer use the amunet because of third party plug-ins that function better.
>ESP WHO DEFAULT
>ESP WHO MERCHANT
I use these commands frequently to see who may be listening and more often than not, not very many.
In the landing, there are maybe 25 to 30 people who use it, out of 400 players logged in.
The shop system could be a far more pleasant and interactive experience.
<<I don't really see a benefit to coding a system that could be accomplished through existing means.>>
Are you suggesting that using the amunet, forums and email is a better system?
What if the shop owner logs on at a different time?
What if you post on the forums and the owner never responds?
How do you get a persons email?
The benefit would be a cool automated system that is user friendly and not boring like the current shop system.
Which also relies on third-party software to display the wares in an acceptable and searchable manner for the playing population.
Shouldn't in-game systems be designed and built to function within the game?
If the shop system didn't make you leave the game to track down some shop owner, would that be a benefit?
I understand you don't have the time or ability to make these changes, but I'm hoping you can at least see the benefit they would provide.
I'm sure it's not fast, or easy, but it would be
<<Unless someone has a brainstorm that everyone agrees on and would be simple to code, though, it's not making it into this update. :) ~V>>
Will you tell us more about what will be changed in this update?
Monthly rent fixed?
Trying to fix stacking of certain items?
Is it an update to fix existing bugs or will additional benefits be added?
I like the idea of incentives to price items to sell in one's shop, promoting turn over would make for a more vibrant and lively player-based market. One thing that comes to mind is lowering or even removing the sales tax if the item is sold within X days of its original listing (could even be a sliding scale, within the first week, no tax, gradually increasing to full tax after the first month, something like that).
The obvious abuse there is pulling an item and relisting every week - so there'd have to be some sort of catch to stop that. Perhaps recording the number of times an item has been listed, and only giving the bonus if it's on its first go around, or something like that.
The obvious abuse there is pulling an item and relisting every week - so there'd have to be some sort of catch to stop that. Perhaps recording the number of times an item has been listed, and only giving the bonus if it's on its first go around, or something like that.
> Monthly rent fixed?
Yes. And Repos will resume.
> Trying to fix stacking of certain items?
Not in this update, but it's on my list.
> Is it an update to fix existing bugs or will additional benefits be added?
Mostly bugs, but some feature tweaks as well. I've mentioned some updates to the manifest and additional info will be able to be certified by bardsong and assess.
~V
I would really love to see other things become stackable, like chrisms. I can understand not being able to stack gems, since they have varying values. But once a gem is turned into a chrism, it no longer has that value. It is no longer a gem, and (from what we can tell) only has three distinguishing traits: how full it is, whether it's dull/ordinary/etc, and type of gem. For example:
The now translucent outer shell of the full uncut diamond allows you to see the ordinary cobalt liquid undulating.
So, on the GM side, could you please look into making these stackable?
Thanks!
The now translucent outer shell of the full uncut diamond allows you to see the ordinary cobalt liquid undulating.
So, on the GM side, could you please look into making these stackable?
Thanks!
> Can you just borrow code from gem/alchemy jars? Or at least copy the concept? The jars appear to allow gems to retain their value.
> I always figured that the player shop code was used as a starting point to create the jar code.
I didn't write the jar code, so I don't know the starting point, but that's where I'm looking for ideas for shop containers. :)
~V
> I always figured that the player shop code was used as a starting point to create the jar code.
I didn't write the jar code, so I don't know the starting point, but that's where I'm looking for ideas for shop containers. :)
~V
A bit late in suggesting this but could we add the ability to know how much space is available in any given room? It would be nice to know how much capacity is unused without having to run out of space to find out. Maybe an additional line at the end of SHOP INVENTORY:
"You have 43 items on display with the capacity to display an additional 2 items."
-- Robert
"You have 43 items on display with the capacity to display an additional 2 items."
-- Robert
