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For years, Republicans, under pressure from large special interest groups, such as gun manufacturers and the NRA, have been blocking all reasonable attempts to close the gun show loophole. The gun show loophole allows anyone to buy a gun at a gun show without going through the normal background checks. If you're going to have background checks, then why should there be such an obvious loophole.
Al Qaeda is now aware of the gunshow loophole and is urging its U.S. followers to buy guns at gun shows.
Source:
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/watch-nra-heads-explode-al-qaeda-spo
Much of the gun violence near the U.S. southern border is a result of the U.S. gun show loophole.
Buying a gun at a gunshow from an FFL has the same regulations as buying it from an FFL at a gunshop. Buying a gun from an individual at a gunshow has the same regulations as buying from an individual outside a gunshow. A law being consistent is not a loophole, that is an intended feature.
>Much of the gun violence near the U.S. southern border is a result of the U.S. gun show loophole.
This is an absurd statement. The crime is caused by the ongoing insurgency by mexican drug cartels and the attempted crackdown by their government. A war, and it is a war, that has claimed something in the neighborehood of 35,000 deaths since it began in 2006.
I presume you are implying that the guns they use come from gun shows. However the government is kind enough to give us the numbers on such things. Mexicans recovered 30,000 guns in 2008. Of those 3,480 came from the United States. Of these, a large portion have a purchase to recovery period of over ten years. Who would wait 10 years to smuggle a gun for profit? No. Those are guns purchased in the united states, stolen by someone else, and sent back to Mexico and consist entirely of commercial (non-automatic) firearms. We can say that, because the National Firearms Act registry keeps track of all those scary machine guns in civilian hands.
We might also include in these the nearly 2,000 guns the ATF told gun dealers to sell to known and suspected gun trafficers, over the gun dealers objections, so they could be "tracked". Most of them were never recovered, except of course the ones that showed up at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.
The RPG's, machine guns, hand grenades. Those all originate in Mexican and South American army supply depos until some enterprising young bureaucrat decides to make some extra cash and sells it to the narco guys.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
>Much of the gun violence near the U.S. southern border is a result of the U.S. gun show loophole.
This is an absurd statement. The crime is caused by the ongoing insurgency by mexican drug cartels and the attempted crackdown by their government. A war, and it is a war, that has claimed something in the neighborehood of 35,000 deaths since it began in 2006.
I presume you are implying that the guns they use come from gun shows. However the government is kind enough to give us the numbers on such things. Mexicans recovered 30,000 guns in 2008. Of those 3,480 came from the United States. Of these, a large portion have a purchase to recovery period of over ten years. Who would wait 10 years to smuggle a gun for profit? No. Those are guns purchased in the united states, stolen by someone else, and sent back to Mexico and consist entirely of commercial (non-automatic) firearms. We can say that, because the National Firearms Act registry keeps track of all those scary machine guns in civilian hands.
We might also include in these the nearly 2,000 guns the ATF told gun dealers to sell to known and suspected gun trafficers, over the gun dealers objections, so they could be "tracked". Most of them were never recovered, except of course the ones that showed up at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.
The RPG's, machine guns, hand grenades. Those all originate in Mexican and South American army supply depos until some enterprising young bureaucrat decides to make some extra cash and sells it to the narco guys.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
OH MY GOD! You mean we've thwarted them everywhere else and now their only way to get a gun is through a gun show? OH MY GOD!! Do you know what this means?! We can catch them at the gun shows!
Oh it also means we have apparently plugged the northward movement of guns from Mexico. How about that.
SGM Sleken
Oh it also means we have apparently plugged the northward movement of guns from Mexico. How about that.
SGM Sleken
<< Buying a gun from an individual at a gunshow has the same regulations as buying from an individual outside a gunshow. >>
The difference is that someone who wants to stockpile guns has easy access at a gunshow to a lot of guns in one place. Buying guns from individuals outside of gunshows requires a lot more work.
The difference is that someone who wants to stockpile guns has easy access at a gunshow to a lot of guns in one place. Buying guns from individuals outside of gunshows requires a lot more work.
<< OH MY GOD! You mean we've thwarted them everywhere else and now their only way to get a gun is through a gun show? OH MY GOD!! Do you know what this means?! We can catch them at the gun shows! >> --SGM Sleken
Al Qaeda is publicly urging people in the U.S. who are sympathetic to their cause to buy guns at gunshows where there is no background check. How are you going to catch them at gunshows when there is no background check?
Al Qaeda is publicly urging people in the U.S. who are sympathetic to their cause to buy guns at gunshows where there is no background check. How are you going to catch them at gunshows when there is no background check?
>The difference is that someone who wants to stockpile guns has easy access at a gunshow to a lot of guns in one place. Buying guns from individuals outside of gunshows requires a lot more work.
Yeah, because no one has invented classifieds, craig's list, forums with sale listings, and no one person owns alot of guns they can sell at once. lol. Half the guys I know own more than the total number of private sale guns at the biggest gunshow in Florida. (99% of what is at the show is through a dealer only). Florida, by the way, has 820,000 peopled licensed to carry firearms. No way to know on the number of individuals who own as we do not license that. Just incase you thought we might have particularly small gun shows here.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
Yeah, because no one has invented classifieds, craig's list, forums with sale listings, and no one person owns alot of guns they can sell at once. lol. Half the guys I know own more than the total number of private sale guns at the biggest gunshow in Florida. (99% of what is at the show is through a dealer only). Florida, by the way, has 820,000 peopled licensed to carry firearms. No way to know on the number of individuals who own as we do not license that. Just incase you thought we might have particularly small gun shows here.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
<<
The difference is that someone who wants to stockpile guns has easy access at a gunshow to a lot of guns in one place. Buying guns from individuals outside of gunshows requires a lot more work.
>>
I'm totally lost on this, maybe I'm missing something, but the last time I checked, most gun stores had lots of guns...
SGM Sleken
The difference is that someone who wants to stockpile guns has easy access at a gunshow to a lot of guns in one place. Buying guns from individuals outside of gunshows requires a lot more work.
>>
I'm totally lost on this, maybe I'm missing something, but the last time I checked, most gun stores had lots of guns...
SGM Sleken
<<Al Qaeda is publicly urging people in the U.S. who are sympathetic to their cause to buy guns at gunshows where there is no background check. How are you going to catch them at gunshows when there is no background check?>>
Just to buy them? Not to attack? Whats the point? Oh wait...
Maybe the point is to cause panic to support Obama's forced disarmament of all US citizens? Politicians do prefer unarmed peasants. Easier to rule when you don't have that threat of revolution hanging over your head.
Or maybe both are just nothing. :)
SGM Sleken
Just to buy them? Not to attack? Whats the point? Oh wait...
Maybe the point is to cause panic to support Obama's forced disarmament of all US citizens? Politicians do prefer unarmed peasants. Easier to rule when you don't have that threat of revolution hanging over your head.
Or maybe both are just nothing. :)
SGM Sleken
<< I'm totally lost on this, maybe I'm missing something, but the last time I checked, most gun stores had lots of guns... >>
Gun stores do background checks. Gun shows do not. That's the loophole.
<< If we know these people are terrorists, why not pick them up and be done with them? >>
That's a fair point. A background check would not stop a domestic terrorist from buying a gun unless the terrorist had a criminal background or a reported history of certain kinds of mental illness. Congress refuses to change the law to block people on the terrorist "no fly" list from purchasing guns.
<< At this point in time, if the terrorists are resorting to civilian small arms, I think we've won the war. >>
Most people who watched the al Qaeda video concluded that the al Qaeda spokesperson was urging U.S. residents to buy guns to commit terrorist acts inside the U.S. He was not asking people to buy guns in the U.S. and mail them to Afghanistan.
<< Maybe the point is to cause panic to support Obama's forced disarmament of all US citizens? >>
The video was made by al Qaeda, not by Obama. Obama was born in the U.S., is not a Muslim and does not want to take your guns. Unlike his Democratic (and some of his Republican) predecessors, Obama as a candidate and as a president has consistently asserted that the Second Amendment provides an individual right to own guns, as opposed merely to authorizing an armed military and police force. Obama is to the right of most liberals on the issue of gun control.
Gun stores do background checks. Gun shows do not. That's the loophole.
<< If we know these people are terrorists, why not pick them up and be done with them? >>
That's a fair point. A background check would not stop a domestic terrorist from buying a gun unless the terrorist had a criminal background or a reported history of certain kinds of mental illness. Congress refuses to change the law to block people on the terrorist "no fly" list from purchasing guns.
<< At this point in time, if the terrorists are resorting to civilian small arms, I think we've won the war. >>
Most people who watched the al Qaeda video concluded that the al Qaeda spokesperson was urging U.S. residents to buy guns to commit terrorist acts inside the U.S. He was not asking people to buy guns in the U.S. and mail them to Afghanistan.
<< Maybe the point is to cause panic to support Obama's forced disarmament of all US citizens? >>
The video was made by al Qaeda, not by Obama. Obama was born in the U.S., is not a Muslim and does not want to take your guns. Unlike his Democratic (and some of his Republican) predecessors, Obama as a candidate and as a president has consistently asserted that the Second Amendment provides an individual right to own guns, as opposed merely to authorizing an armed military and police force. Obama is to the right of most liberals on the issue of gun control.
<<
Most people who watched the al Qaeda video concluded that the al Qaeda spokesperson was urging U.S. residents to buy guns to commit terrorist acts inside the U.S. He was not asking people to buy guns in the U.S. and mail them to Afghanistan.>>
I didn't mean the war in Afghanistan, I meant the bigger "War on Terror". My fault for not making that clear.
<<Gun stores do background checks. Gun shows do not. That's the loophole.>>
I was referring to the terrorist list on this. Its not checked and I don't know why. Of course, most mental illnesses are NOT reported to NICS, so even that is an issue.
<<The video was made by al Qaeda, not by Obama. Obama was born in the U.S., is not a Muslim and does not want to take your guns. >>
I didn't say he was a foreign muslim. He does want to work on gun control under the radar or so the Brady's say.
SGM Sleken
Most people who watched the al Qaeda video concluded that the al Qaeda spokesperson was urging U.S. residents to buy guns to commit terrorist acts inside the U.S. He was not asking people to buy guns in the U.S. and mail them to Afghanistan.>>
I didn't mean the war in Afghanistan, I meant the bigger "War on Terror". My fault for not making that clear.
<<Gun stores do background checks. Gun shows do not. That's the loophole.>>
I was referring to the terrorist list on this. Its not checked and I don't know why. Of course, most mental illnesses are NOT reported to NICS, so even that is an issue.
<<The video was made by al Qaeda, not by Obama. Obama was born in the U.S., is not a Muslim and does not want to take your guns. >>
I didn't say he was a foreign muslim. He does want to work on gun control under the radar or so the Brady's say.
SGM Sleken
>Gun stores do background checks. Gun shows do not. That's the loophole.
People with FFLs who sell at gun shows DO HAVE TO DO BACKGROUND CHECKS. FFLs are the guys at the big tables with all the guns, if you ever do visit a gun show. The only people who do not do background checks are private sales, these are exactly the same people who you can meet an an Applebee's and buy the gun now without a background check. Sure, it might be handy to have more than one private seller in one place (they go to buy new guns at the gun show). But you can buy guns fine without that convenience.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
People with FFLs who sell at gun shows DO HAVE TO DO BACKGROUND CHECKS. FFLs are the guys at the big tables with all the guns, if you ever do visit a gun show. The only people who do not do background checks are private sales, these are exactly the same people who you can meet an an Applebee's and buy the gun now without a background check. Sure, it might be handy to have more than one private seller in one place (they go to buy new guns at the gun show). But you can buy guns fine without that convenience.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
>People with FFLs who sell at gun shows DO HAVE TO DO BACKGROUND CHECKS. FFLs are the guys at the big tables with all the guns, if you ever do visit a gun show.
Assuming this is the case (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), I have to agree that there's no real problem here. It's not really reasonable to ask individuals to do background checks for private sales. And given the internet and things like craigslist, I don't really see how potential terrorists/criminals would have any more trouble obtaining background-check-less guns without gun shows.
From a little wikipedia-ing, I did find out that non-FFLs can only sell to other residents of their own state, which is something anyway. What I would be curious about is if there's a more defined point at which an individual gun seller must become an FFL. All I found was: "Persons who engage in the business of buying or selling firearms must be licensed", but that's pretty unclear. (How many sales constitute a "business"?)
- Greminty
Assuming this is the case (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), I have to agree that there's no real problem here. It's not really reasonable to ask individuals to do background checks for private sales. And given the internet and things like craigslist, I don't really see how potential terrorists/criminals would have any more trouble obtaining background-check-less guns without gun shows.
From a little wikipedia-ing, I did find out that non-FFLs can only sell to other residents of their own state, which is something anyway. What I would be curious about is if there's a more defined point at which an individual gun seller must become an FFL. All I found was: "Persons who engage in the business of buying or selling firearms must be licensed", but that's pretty unclear. (How many sales constitute a "business"?)
- Greminty
IF you have a brick and mortar store, you're going to be licensed. If you setup a booth at a show, you'd best be doing the checks, because if you get caught, losing your license will be the least of your worries.
To receive firearms from a manufacturer, you must be licensed.
To do transfers, through UPS, you must be licensed and must do a check on the recipient.
I do know craigslist and ebay both disallow listing of firearms, but I'd bet that is regularly circumvented.
It's a good question on the "what constitutes a business vs. private sales". If you ever definitively find out, please do post the info.
SGM Sleken
To receive firearms from a manufacturer, you must be licensed.
To do transfers, through UPS, you must be licensed and must do a check on the recipient.
I do know craigslist and ebay both disallow listing of firearms, but I'd bet that is regularly circumvented.
It's a good question on the "what constitutes a business vs. private sales". If you ever definitively find out, please do post the info.
SGM Sleken
From an opinion piece by an Arizona columnist:
<< New York's Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a member of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns coalition, issued a press release Friday saying, "The terror statement released today is absolutely accurate in one respect: terrorists and other criminals can easily buy guns in the United States with no background check, and no questions asked. This video may help Washington understand that weak gun laws aren't just a crime problem, they're a national security threat."
<< Arizona is a haven for gun-show enthusiasts. There was a time when Sen. John McCain was among the most vocal politicians calling on Congress to close the loophole, once even suggesting that it would be a good place for terrorists to obtain weapons.
<< Well, it appears that the terrorists have caught on. >>
Source:
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/EJMontini/130245
<< New York's Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a member of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns coalition, issued a press release Friday saying, "The terror statement released today is absolutely accurate in one respect: terrorists and other criminals can easily buy guns in the United States with no background check, and no questions asked. This video may help Washington understand that weak gun laws aren't just a crime problem, they're a national security threat."
<< Arizona is a haven for gun-show enthusiasts. There was a time when Sen. John McCain was among the most vocal politicians calling on Congress to close the loophole, once even suggesting that it would be a good place for terrorists to obtain weapons.
<< Well, it appears that the terrorists have caught on. >>
Source:
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/EJMontini/130245
Some background on the al Qaeda spokesperson who called on al Qaeda followers in the U.S. to buy guns at gunshows:
<< THERE MAY NEVER be a better spokesman for closing the gun show loophole than Adam Yahiye Gadahn.
<< A 32-year-old American and convert to Islam, Mr. Gadahn referred to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as "blessed raids" and called for additional "jihad against America." He has been on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists list and faces criminal charges for treason and for providing material support to al-Qaeda. Mr. Gadahn is believed to have left his native Orange County, Calif., for Pakistan, where he has become a multimedia front man for the terrorist organization. >>
Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/closing-the-terror-gap-and-the-gun-show-loophole/2011/06/06/AGTKubKH_story.html
<< THERE MAY NEVER be a better spokesman for closing the gun show loophole than Adam Yahiye Gadahn.
<< A 32-year-old American and convert to Islam, Mr. Gadahn referred to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as "blessed raids" and called for additional "jihad against America." He has been on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists list and faces criminal charges for treason and for providing material support to al-Qaeda. Mr. Gadahn is believed to have left his native Orange County, Calif., for Pakistan, where he has become a multimedia front man for the terrorist organization. >>
Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/closing-the-terror-gap-and-the-gun-show-loophole/2011/06/06/AGTKubKH_story.html
<< A 32-year-old American and convert to Islam, Mr. Gadahn referred to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, as "blessed raids" and called for additional "jihad against America." He has been on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists list and faces criminal charges for treason and for providing material support to al-Qaeda. Mr. Gadahn is believed to have left his native Orange County, Calif., for Pakistan, where he has become a multimedia front man for the terrorist organization. >>
Sounds like a good call to deal with the Islam problem, rather than piss off all of the legal citizens. Of course, I see the UN is pushing again for their gun control treaty.
SGM Sleken
Though I'm generally for more gun control (though certainly not entire bans), I don't think this is a real issue. The fact that the worst terrorist acts in the past century in the US were performed with box-cutters, makes me think it really doesn't matter how much we restrict guns in regards to terrorist acts. A simple cheaply-made pipe bomb, or turning our own infrastructure against us, will probably always have more allure to terrorists than any semi-automatic.
- Greminty
- Greminty
