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Using trading and stats to adjust/provide checks for talking your way out of or avoiding persecution. The more stuff you have on you, the more acquisitions, the more likely it is you go away. Remove the ALL ITEMS GO IN A BOX nonsense. You either pay a huge fine or spend time in jail or the stockades. Afterward, you are given a penalty in the town. Services all cost more, you get less from the pawnshop. Negative reputation until you are no longer offered services by NPC shops or are arrested on sight and removed from the town.
Removing the risk of pickpocketing removes a layer of interaction no matter how you slice it. Allow for new traps to be crafted by all professions, those made by rogues will be the best and should be close to functionality as the bladder enhancive in preventing pickpocketing. Of course, they'll cost you and will wear out over time/use. This breaths new life into lots of other skills, keeps the skill in the game, adds MORE interaction with the skill and provides a means of protection to those of lesser level.
The game has always been about making choices, minimizing risks, maximizing gains, trading one thing for another. If we could all do everything and never suffer any consequences its not fun anymore and just becomes a text based WoW.
>We do not limit the other actions by permitting a hard 'opt out'. Key point, they can still happen. Pandora's box is that they require GM time to bring to 'closure'.
That's true but like PvP(murder) it will cause headaches for GMs if they have to decide if the pickpocketing was roleplayed or not and against policy. Also if you're murdered you tend to know it where with pickpocketing it might not be evident. A hard "opt out" actually would save GM time dealing with the problem as there would be no problem at all. Anyone who enjoyed the roleplay of being a mark or the thrill of stealing from people could have their fun(assuming anyone would enjoy being the mark).
>Or is that a sarcastic 'much fun' comment, meaning you want to do away with these capabilities?
Sorry for not being clear, yes, that was sarcastic. I was trying to say "close your bags and deposit your silvers" works just as well as having a free for all PvP system where if you didn't enjoy it you could just stay in sancted rooms does. I would hate a free for all PvP system too for the record.
>You're right! I didn't address tables! How kind of you to bring that up. Why do we need more, though? I'm considering based on this view of the proposal that you (the player) essentially don't want to interact with anyone except your chosen few - said differently, you would 'opt out' of any other player interaction, if you could. Is that 'much fun' as you're characterizing it?
We would need more tables because I would imagine theft gone wild would make a bigger amount of people sitting at tables to rest so they didn't have to lock themselves down like fort knox everytime they wanted to interact with some other characters. I enjoy interacting with people, I even enjoy conflict with others. I could even fathom enjoying pickpocketing in a utopian kind of way where thieves roleplayed and didn't abuse the system or their fellow players.
That however is not my experience with players who play pickpockets. I think in my time playing gemstone off and on over the years I saw one or two who actively tried roleplaying the theft and while I appreciate the effort it still wasn't fun. I have seen too numerous to count though people using it to bully, troll and instigate PvP. I guess it makes roleplay sense for a thief to target the weak(low level characters) so they get away with it but what fun is that for a player of a level 5 character? Even if a miracle happens and they catch the thief then they either die to the thief, the thief runs and hides with no chance of being searched out or if they don't roleplay being the victim out of fear of being killed the thief just continues on after an allotted amount of time goes by.
>I'd like to see something proposed. Like I said - I don't pretend to have all the answers.
It's been said numerous times but having the pickpocket skill only work on npcs/merchants/critters. Maybe even adding a couple npcs for the town that could show up for bounty quests if you have 40+ ranks of pickpocketing. If the PC has to be included as a possible mark it would be nice to have some real justice handed out automatically. Maybe something like if the system sees a thief caught a group of vigilante NPCs show up and tackle the thief and hang him on the spot and give the mark who caught him all the stealable stuff the thief was holding. Maybe even have a chance of a NPC notice the theft for when high level thieves target low level marks. After being caught enough times start having shops around town refuse to deal with the thief. I would prefer to get rid of player vs player pickpocketing though and if not then having the hard opt-out.
That's true but like PvP(murder) it will cause headaches for GMs if they have to decide if the pickpocketing was roleplayed or not and against policy. Also if you're murdered you tend to know it where with pickpocketing it might not be evident. A hard "opt out" actually would save GM time dealing with the problem as there would be no problem at all. Anyone who enjoyed the roleplay of being a mark or the thrill of stealing from people could have their fun(assuming anyone would enjoy being the mark).
>Or is that a sarcastic 'much fun' comment, meaning you want to do away with these capabilities?
Sorry for not being clear, yes, that was sarcastic. I was trying to say "close your bags and deposit your silvers" works just as well as having a free for all PvP system where if you didn't enjoy it you could just stay in sancted rooms does. I would hate a free for all PvP system too for the record.
>You're right! I didn't address tables! How kind of you to bring that up. Why do we need more, though? I'm considering based on this view of the proposal that you (the player) essentially don't want to interact with anyone except your chosen few - said differently, you would 'opt out' of any other player interaction, if you could. Is that 'much fun' as you're characterizing it?
We would need more tables because I would imagine theft gone wild would make a bigger amount of people sitting at tables to rest so they didn't have to lock themselves down like fort knox everytime they wanted to interact with some other characters. I enjoy interacting with people, I even enjoy conflict with others. I could even fathom enjoying pickpocketing in a utopian kind of way where thieves roleplayed and didn't abuse the system or their fellow players.
That however is not my experience with players who play pickpockets. I think in my time playing gemstone off and on over the years I saw one or two who actively tried roleplaying the theft and while I appreciate the effort it still wasn't fun. I have seen too numerous to count though people using it to bully, troll and instigate PvP. I guess it makes roleplay sense for a thief to target the weak(low level characters) so they get away with it but what fun is that for a player of a level 5 character? Even if a miracle happens and they catch the thief then they either die to the thief, the thief runs and hides with no chance of being searched out or if they don't roleplay being the victim out of fear of being killed the thief just continues on after an allotted amount of time goes by.
>I'd like to see something proposed. Like I said - I don't pretend to have all the answers.
It's been said numerous times but having the pickpocket skill only work on npcs/merchants/critters. Maybe even adding a couple npcs for the town that could show up for bounty quests if you have 40+ ranks of pickpocketing. If the PC has to be included as a possible mark it would be nice to have some real justice handed out automatically. Maybe something like if the system sees a thief caught a group of vigilante NPCs show up and tackle the thief and hang him on the spot and give the mark who caught him all the stealable stuff the thief was holding. Maybe even have a chance of a NPC notice the theft for when high level thieves target low level marks. After being caught enough times start having shops around town refuse to deal with the thief. I would prefer to get rid of player vs player pickpocketing though and if not then having the hard opt-out.
Some good responses! In order of posts, a consolidated response.
>>Pickpocketing is a system which players force on other players and which allows those of lower level no way to respond when someone of higher level decides to pick on them. That's just frustrating.
I absolutely agree with most of this statement. What it doesn't seem to cover is that there are choices the player (being picked on) can make to significantly reduce this. But otherwise, yes - I agree this is a core part of what needs to be resolved. Perhaps, like hunting, you get no 'benefit' (ie - no possible success) from attempting to target anyone + or - 10 levels? 15 levels? That would greatly reduce the incidents at the sub-20 level category, and give time for players to acclimate to this risk.
>>Again, I do see your point, but I do not think the enjoyment of one player should come at the cost of taking away the enjoyment of another.
Yep! Yep! However, if pick pocket skill were removed, isn't that the same thing - just in reverse? Just calling it out - not saying by itself it justifies any specific course or direction.
>>Robert's point
Agreed - but only in the sense that it is one of several facets that needs consideration / adjustment. Just by itself, I'm not sure (but could be convinced, perhaps!) that it is 'the' solution.
>>Making it so that when you catch someone, your accusation is believed is one important start.
I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
>>But a couple of hours in jail, at least, is not over the top. That would slow some thieves down. And making the thief make restitution for all items stolen from the victim would also be important.
Scaling the first part (first offense is lesser, subsequent 2nd or 3rd offense in line with suggested, added offenses time plus fine, etc.) I'd support. And restitution, yep - key part of the 'recovery' aspect of my suggestion. Don't care how it's realized, but it is important.
>>JOEKUPS points
Sing it, fellow player, sing it! Good stuff for consideration here.
Thanks, to all, for the contributions. I like a lot of what I'm seeing.
Doug
>>Pickpocketing is a system which players force on other players and which allows those of lower level no way to respond when someone of higher level decides to pick on them. That's just frustrating.
I absolutely agree with most of this statement. What it doesn't seem to cover is that there are choices the player (being picked on) can make to significantly reduce this. But otherwise, yes - I agree this is a core part of what needs to be resolved. Perhaps, like hunting, you get no 'benefit' (ie - no possible success) from attempting to target anyone + or - 10 levels? 15 levels? That would greatly reduce the incidents at the sub-20 level category, and give time for players to acclimate to this risk.
>>Again, I do see your point, but I do not think the enjoyment of one player should come at the cost of taking away the enjoyment of another.
Yep! Yep! However, if pick pocket skill were removed, isn't that the same thing - just in reverse? Just calling it out - not saying by itself it justifies any specific course or direction.
>>Robert's point
Agreed - but only in the sense that it is one of several facets that needs consideration / adjustment. Just by itself, I'm not sure (but could be convinced, perhaps!) that it is 'the' solution.
>>Making it so that when you catch someone, your accusation is believed is one important start.
I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
>>But a couple of hours in jail, at least, is not over the top. That would slow some thieves down. And making the thief make restitution for all items stolen from the victim would also be important.
Scaling the first part (first offense is lesser, subsequent 2nd or 3rd offense in line with suggested, added offenses time plus fine, etc.) I'd support. And restitution, yep - key part of the 'recovery' aspect of my suggestion. Don't care how it's realized, but it is important.
>>JOEKUPS points
Sing it, fellow player, sing it! Good stuff for consideration here.
Thanks, to all, for the contributions. I like a lot of what I'm seeing.
Doug
>>If the PC has to be included as a possible mark it would be nice to have some real justice handed out automatically. Maybe something like if the system sees a thief caught a group of vigilante NPCs show up and tackle the thief and hang him on the spot and give the mark who caught him all the stealable stuff the thief was holding. Maybe even have a chance of a NPC notice the theft for when high level thieves target low level marks. After being caught enough times start having shops around town refuse to deal with the thief. I would prefer to get rid of player vs player pickpocketing though and if not then having the hard opt-out.
With the exception of the 'preference' comment at the end, I like these ideas, too! And please note - I'm including but not agreeing with the 'preference' comment to be sure it's credited as your position - not to undermine it. I just don't happen to agree, at that end of the scale. Still like the rest!
Doug
With the exception of the 'preference' comment at the end, I like these ideas, too! And please note - I'm including but not agreeing with the 'preference' comment to be sure it's credited as your position - not to undermine it. I just don't happen to agree, at that end of the scale. Still like the rest!
Doug
>> Using trading and stats to adjust/provide checks for talking your way out of or avoiding persecution.
I always thought it would be cool to have some sort of legal skill that you could use in this manner. First we need a justice / legal system in place that would make you even want to bother with it though.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
I always thought it would be cool to have some sort of legal skill that you could use in this manner. First we need a justice / legal system in place that would make you even want to bother with it though.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
>Perhaps, like hunting, you get no 'benefit' (ie - no possible success) from attempting to target anyone + or - 10 levels? 15 levels? That would greatly reduce the incidents at the sub-20 level category, and give time for players to acclimate to this risk.
If the skill had to stay as a CvC tool, this would be a good idea, but I would rather not have to deal with it at all.
>>Again, I do see your point, but I do not think the enjoyment of one player should come at the cost of taking away the enjoyment of another.
>>Yep! Yep! However, if pick pocket skill were removed, isn't that the same thing - just in reverse? Just calling it out - not saying by itself it justifies any specific course or direction.
Which is why I prefer the opt-out option. That way those who enjoy it can take part, and those who do not can avoid it. But I am still not sure it is the same thing. In one case you have a player taking things from another; in the other, it is just saying you do not want your things taken away.
>I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
Oh, this absolutely happens. I have seen it and had it happen to me. The justice system can simply not believe an accusation, even when you caught the thief stealing from you.
>>It's been said numerous times but having the pickpocket skill only work on npcs/merchants/critters.
For me, this remains the ideal solution. People can still play thief characters without taking things away from other players.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
If the skill had to stay as a CvC tool, this would be a good idea, but I would rather not have to deal with it at all.
>>Again, I do see your point, but I do not think the enjoyment of one player should come at the cost of taking away the enjoyment of another.
>>Yep! Yep! However, if pick pocket skill were removed, isn't that the same thing - just in reverse? Just calling it out - not saying by itself it justifies any specific course or direction.
Which is why I prefer the opt-out option. That way those who enjoy it can take part, and those who do not can avoid it. But I am still not sure it is the same thing. In one case you have a player taking things from another; in the other, it is just saying you do not want your things taken away.
>I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
Oh, this absolutely happens. I have seen it and had it happen to me. The justice system can simply not believe an accusation, even when you caught the thief stealing from you.
>>It's been said numerous times but having the pickpocket skill only work on npcs/merchants/critters.
For me, this remains the ideal solution. People can still play thief characters without taking things away from other players.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
>What it doesn't seem to cover is that there are choices the player (being picked on) can make to significantly reduce this.
You can completely eliminate the risk of item loss in town and at the same time you can poison or amputate anyone that tries to steal from you. Even if you are level 0 and they are level 100. If marks use the mechanics available to them, its the thieves that have the pickpocket game completely stacked against them.
I consider it unsporting, and if the thief is putting on a show I give them a chance. If not, not.
>I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
The possibility is known to exist, it may be zero in some circumstances but it isn't for a non-citizen accusing a citizen. However, there's also a disparity in the level of evidence required. I can be sure someone is a thief without the system having realised it from circumstantial evidence. If I make an accusation under those circumstances the normal result is disbelief. This is one of the reasons why I think there ought to be an AUTOACCUSE flag so that players don't have to concern themselves with the intricacies of what the game considers as sufficient evidence. I'd have to call in a GH and go through my log with them to be sure whether it was a fumble roll or insufficient flags set for me having the evidence.
e.g. XXX is known by me to be a leading member of a nefarious activies MHO. I regard this as sufficient basis for suspicion on the behalf of my character when XXX and his group arrive in the room. XXX might merely be coming to offer his services as a locksmith though. A member of XXX's group casts darkness. This rather rules out the locksmith possibility. Due diligence is called for. I sanct. XXX uses a sanctbreaker. I keep a careful watch on the contents of my pockets. They go down. At this point, I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that XXX is stealing from me but an accusation isn't going to be believed so I take matters into my own hands. I leave the room, rearrange my containers so that the only items in an accessible container are a needle and a cheap gem and come back. XXX gets poisoned. The gem goes. My needle gets bloody. XXX's pet empath unpoisons him. I toss my needle down the lava tube. We stand there in silence for a while. He knows that I know that he knows that I know that he was stealing from me, but would an accusation be believed? I don't know. I considered the risk of provoking griefing behaviour too great and didn't try it.
You can completely eliminate the risk of item loss in town and at the same time you can poison or amputate anyone that tries to steal from you. Even if you are level 0 and they are level 100. If marks use the mechanics available to them, its the thieves that have the pickpocket game completely stacked against them.
I consider it unsporting, and if the thief is putting on a show I give them a chance. If not, not.
>I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
The possibility is known to exist, it may be zero in some circumstances but it isn't for a non-citizen accusing a citizen. However, there's also a disparity in the level of evidence required. I can be sure someone is a thief without the system having realised it from circumstantial evidence. If I make an accusation under those circumstances the normal result is disbelief. This is one of the reasons why I think there ought to be an AUTOACCUSE flag so that players don't have to concern themselves with the intricacies of what the game considers as sufficient evidence. I'd have to call in a GH and go through my log with them to be sure whether it was a fumble roll or insufficient flags set for me having the evidence.
e.g. XXX is known by me to be a leading member of a nefarious activies MHO. I regard this as sufficient basis for suspicion on the behalf of my character when XXX and his group arrive in the room. XXX might merely be coming to offer his services as a locksmith though. A member of XXX's group casts darkness. This rather rules out the locksmith possibility. Due diligence is called for. I sanct. XXX uses a sanctbreaker. I keep a careful watch on the contents of my pockets. They go down. At this point, I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that XXX is stealing from me but an accusation isn't going to be believed so I take matters into my own hands. I leave the room, rearrange my containers so that the only items in an accessible container are a needle and a cheap gem and come back. XXX gets poisoned. The gem goes. My needle gets bloody. XXX's pet empath unpoisons him. I toss my needle down the lava tube. We stand there in silence for a while. He knows that I know that he knows that I know that he was stealing from me, but would an accusation be believed? I don't know. I considered the risk of provoking griefing behaviour too great and didn't try it.
<You can completely eliminate the risk of item loss in town and at the same time you can poison or amputate anyone that tries to steal from you. Even if you are level 0 and they are level 100. If marks use the mechanics available to them, its the thieves that have the pickpocket game completely stacked against them.>
I know you prolly didn't mean this to imply that jaws and needles eliminate the risk of item loss, but I wanted to make sure folk didn't get the impression they did.
I'm not sure if it's the number of stealable items in a container, skill of the thief, or a combination of the two that determine the chances that a thief will set off the trap, but it's certainly possible to make pulls from a trapped container without setting off the trap. The only way to completely eliminate item loss is to keep all your worn containers closed, though it never hurts to have one with a few jaws/needles in it that's left open.
If anyone seeing this is interested in getting a couple thief traps, many rogues that have gotten far enough in Lock Mastery to extract trap components will just give any jaws/needles they extract to the owners of the boxes since the pawnshop doesn't pay much at all for them. About half the people I give them to had never heard of them before.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I know you prolly didn't mean this to imply that jaws and needles eliminate the risk of item loss, but I wanted to make sure folk didn't get the impression they did.
I'm not sure if it's the number of stealable items in a container, skill of the thief, or a combination of the two that determine the chances that a thief will set off the trap, but it's certainly possible to make pulls from a trapped container without setting off the trap. The only way to completely eliminate item loss is to keep all your worn containers closed, though it never hurts to have one with a few jaws/needles in it that's left open.
If anyone seeing this is interested in getting a couple thief traps, many rogues that have gotten far enough in Lock Mastery to extract trap components will just give any jaws/needles they extract to the owners of the boxes since the pawnshop doesn't pay much at all for them. About half the people I give them to had never heard of them before.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>>The only way to completely eliminate item loss is to keep all your worn containers closed, though it never hurts to have one with a few jaws/needles in it that's left open.
You can also double container something you never want stolen. If you only hold the container, or only keep it inside another container, it will never be accessible to the pickpocketing skill.
Of course, all of this is pointless paranoia unless someone creates a roving band of pickpockets to boost the room numbers, or some other unusual crowd forms in a non-sancted room. Any pickpocketing attempt is pretty much doomed if you are the only one in the room with the pickpocket.
You can also double container something you never want stolen. If you only hold the container, or only keep it inside another container, it will never be accessible to the pickpocketing skill.
Of course, all of this is pointless paranoia unless someone creates a roving band of pickpockets to boost the room numbers, or some other unusual crowd forms in a non-sancted room. Any pickpocketing attempt is pretty much doomed if you are the only one in the room with the pickpocket.
>I may be way off base here - but is there really the possibility that an accuser who makes the accusation is ignored? I haven't experienced it myself, although the last time I made such an accusation on any character was years back. If it really is what happens today - damn skippy that's a critical element to correct. Everything hinges on a system based resolution to the 'conflict'.
>The possibility is known to exist, it may be zero in some circumstances but it isn't for a non-citizen accusing a citizen. However, there's also a disparity in the level of evidence required. I can be sure someone is a thief without the system having realised it from circumstantial evidence.
It's not just about suspicions or circumstantial evidence. It is also possible to catch someone red-handed stealing from you and not be believed when you accuse.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
>The possibility is known to exist, it may be zero in some circumstances but it isn't for a non-citizen accusing a citizen. However, there's also a disparity in the level of evidence required. I can be sure someone is a thief without the system having realised it from circumstantial evidence.
It's not just about suspicions or circumstantial evidence. It is also possible to catch someone red-handed stealing from you and not be believed when you accuse.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
>but it's certainly possible to make pulls from a trapped container without setting off the trap.
There's a small chance of stealing the trap, but its really pretty small. Its random which item is fingered by a thief but you get to set the odds by how you use your containers, and if you want you can set the the chance of fingering a trap at 100%.
>About half the people I give them to had never heard of them before.
Most of mine didn't even realise theft is possible, let alone that are ways of using the mechanic against thieves. I don't think its feasible to resurrect it by adjusting CvC mechanics, it has to be environmental.
...
You feel something wrong in your gem encrusted loot sack. With a sudden lunge you grab the wrist of a scruffy urchin.
>glance
Glancing down you see a scruffy urchin in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.
A scruffy urchin wriggles desperately.
>e
You drag a scruffy urchin east with you.
Roundtime: 1 second.
A scruffy urchin bites your arm and almost wriggles free.
>grip urchin
You force a scruffy urchin's arm up behind its back and apply a chokehold around its neck with your left arm.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
>march e
You frogmarch a scruffy urchin east.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.
A scruffy urchin begs and pleads with you not to hand him over to the constabulary.
>march e
You frogmarch a scruffy urchin east.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.
A scruffy urchin offers you all his worldly possessions if you'll only set him free.
>appraise urchin
He looks like your typical Landing pickpocket. There is a fairly large bulge under his tattered tunic.
>search urchin
You greedily grab at the bulge under the urchin's tunic.
As you loosen your grip the urchin kicks your shins and wriggles free, leaving you with nothing but a whispered "sucker" and a tattered tunic in your hands.
There's a small chance of stealing the trap, but its really pretty small. Its random which item is fingered by a thief but you get to set the odds by how you use your containers, and if you want you can set the the chance of fingering a trap at 100%.
>About half the people I give them to had never heard of them before.
Most of mine didn't even realise theft is possible, let alone that are ways of using the mechanic against thieves. I don't think its feasible to resurrect it by adjusting CvC mechanics, it has to be environmental.
...
You feel something wrong in your gem encrusted loot sack. With a sudden lunge you grab the wrist of a scruffy urchin.
>glance
Glancing down you see a scruffy urchin in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.
A scruffy urchin wriggles desperately.
>e
You drag a scruffy urchin east with you.
Roundtime: 1 second.
A scruffy urchin bites your arm and almost wriggles free.
>grip urchin
You force a scruffy urchin's arm up behind its back and apply a chokehold around its neck with your left arm.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
>march e
You frogmarch a scruffy urchin east.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.
A scruffy urchin begs and pleads with you not to hand him over to the constabulary.
>march e
You frogmarch a scruffy urchin east.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.
A scruffy urchin offers you all his worldly possessions if you'll only set him free.
>appraise urchin
He looks like your typical Landing pickpocket. There is a fairly large bulge under his tattered tunic.
>search urchin
You greedily grab at the bulge under the urchin's tunic.
As you loosen your grip the urchin kicks your shins and wriggles free, leaving you with nothing but a whispered "sucker" and a tattered tunic in your hands.
It sounds like most people who've posted here are in agreement that pickpocketing (is this really a word?) needs to be updated. The way I read it, there are 3 camps:
Camp 1: Pickpocketing should be PvP (PC vs. PC) but updated so it works right.
Camp 2: Pickpocketing should be PvE only, and greatly expanded for that.
Camp 3: Pickpocketing should go away and become something else.
A couple observations:
- Picking pockets as it exists today feels like an outdated mechanic in a game where other forms of PvP are discouraged.
- Most games I've played that implement stealing implement it only against the environment (against NPCs or places of GM design).
I don't think theft should be removed, but I also don't see many options to make it better as a PC vs. PC skill without reintroducing certain side-effects (mostly relating to cooperative play). As with unchecked PvP, there are a number of issues surrounding its current use, and I think these are why sanctuaries are so ubiquitous now. There are, however, a lot of ways to make it better as a PvE skill, and there have been some really great ideas posted here.
Camp 1: Pickpocketing should be PvP (PC vs. PC) but updated so it works right.
Camp 2: Pickpocketing should be PvE only, and greatly expanded for that.
Camp 3: Pickpocketing should go away and become something else.
A couple observations:
- Picking pockets as it exists today feels like an outdated mechanic in a game where other forms of PvP are discouraged.
- Most games I've played that implement stealing implement it only against the environment (against NPCs or places of GM design).
I don't think theft should be removed, but I also don't see many options to make it better as a PC vs. PC skill without reintroducing certain side-effects (mostly relating to cooperative play). As with unchecked PvP, there are a number of issues surrounding its current use, and I think these are why sanctuaries are so ubiquitous now. There are, however, a lot of ways to make it better as a PvE skill, and there have been some really great ideas posted here.
Maybe different penalties for crimes in different towns? One town might be more tolerant of theft but less tolerant of something else; another might consider theft a capital crime. It makes sense for different towns to have different laws, and moreso when different races are concerned. The Landing might be much more tolerant of certain crimes than Solhaven, for example, and Zul Logoth might be more willing to turn a blind eye to crimes committed by dwarves.
Maybe in some towns you can bribe your way out before you are hauled off to jail, so boxing up items never occurs. The chance to do this could be based on your influence + trading (bribery) skill. Or, in certain towns they give you 5 (?) minutes to turn yourself in voluntarily before they send a posse which will automatically hang you from a lamp post. There are lots of options here. Not all are benign, but it'd make things more interesting.
Once upon a time, probably before Shattered existed, I recall someone suggested setting up a Tombstone town where justice is always off and players consent to PvP before entering (buying a ticket to enter, or something like that). I think the original idea was to lock down PvP more outside this town, but it's an interesting tangent and sort of on-topic to justice and the current form of pickpocketing.
Maybe in some towns you can bribe your way out before you are hauled off to jail, so boxing up items never occurs. The chance to do this could be based on your influence + trading (bribery) skill. Or, in certain towns they give you 5 (?) minutes to turn yourself in voluntarily before they send a posse which will automatically hang you from a lamp post. There are lots of options here. Not all are benign, but it'd make things more interesting.
Once upon a time, probably before Shattered existed, I recall someone suggested setting up a Tombstone town where justice is always off and players consent to PvP before entering (buying a ticket to enter, or something like that). I think the original idea was to lock down PvP more outside this town, but it's an interesting tangent and sort of on-topic to justice and the current form of pickpocketing.
Looks like I am kinda late to the party but, if we are going to be redesigning an entire system in Gemstone 4, I should try to help out.
I think we should look at how pickpocket and stealing works in other games for inspiration. I'll divide it into stealing from hostile enemies and stealing from friendly NCPs.
STEALING FROM HOSTILE ENEMIES
>Stealing from critters is a common request, but you were probably going to kill it and loot its corpse anyway, so that doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
Funny you say that Ixix, because that's how it works in most RPGs and I can't think of any game that actually tried to explain why it works that way.
Final Fantasy is the first game series I played that allowed you to steal from enemies and almost all turn based RPGs use similar stealing systems. You have a steal command, you pick an enemy target and you might steal something from it. This is usually some random item that they would not otherwise drop after the fight. In the case of rare enemies or bosses, the item you steal might not even be found anywhere else in the game. The stealing mechanics have varied game to game. Some games have enemies that only carry one item you can steal. Other games might have enemies that carry a common item and a rare item and what you steal depends on your luck.
Final Fantasy Tactics had a stealing system that allowed you to steal the equipped enemies instead of some random items they were carrying. Don't like that Samurai hitting you with his sword? Steal it. Now he barely does any damage. That Lancer has too much HP? Steal his armor. He just lost +100 HP permanently. There is a Knight that keeps blocking all your attacks? Steal his shield. He ain't blocking anything now! See a nice accessory that you can't buy from the store on a Priest? Steal it! They don't benefit from it anymore and you can use it yourself later. This is the best example of tactical stealing I've seen. It lets you weaken targets in addition to getting cool loot.
I thought of a game that had a stealing-like mechanic that would be very useful in Gemstone. It's the Barbarian's Find Item skill from Diablo 2. To summarize the skill, you use it on the corpse of slain monster and you have a chance to get an extra item drop from the monster as if you had killed it a second time. The logic behind this skill is that the Barbarian searches more thoroughly and spends more time looking for items than other characters. A quick brainstorm on a system like this in Gemstone would be a special search verb that causes hard roundtime but has a chance to get more loot from a critter when you search it. It would takes Pickpocket and Perception into consideration when determining if more loot was found. This search couldn't make the critter drop more loot than it otherwise could (ie it takes hunting pressure into consideration). Likewise, you wouldn't find extra loot on a critter if it dropped a box or doesn't drop anything at all. In fact, make a special message when you try to use it on critters that can't drop items like Giant Rats or Roltons.
Reverse Pickpockering is tactic I've seen some games like in the Fallout series. This means instead of taking an item from the target, you plant something on them such as a live grenade. It can be a really good way to start a fight but I don't think it translates into Gemstone well because of how fast players kill critters. It's extra time that would be better spent just killing the creature instead. This sort of thing makes more sense in tactical turn based games.
STEALING FROM FRIENDLY NPCS
Games series like Fallout and Elder Scrolls have systems where you can take items for friendly NPCs and to be honest, all these systems are the same and they are all terrible. The basic idea is that you approach a target while in stealth and open their inventory to see a list of items you can steal with percentages of how hard it would be to steal. If you succeed, you get the item and continue playing like nothing happened. Fail and EVERYONE nearby will goes hostile and will try to kill you. Failures like this are bad for a number of reasons:
1. This is an overreaction to stealing a minor item like a healing potion or a handful of ammo. NPCs react to a failed pickpocket attempt the exact same way as attacking someone.
2. You lose access to anything those NPCs could provide you. No more shops, quests, or recruitable allies. Heck, sometimes you can make essential (unkillable, need for the plot) characters go hostile and ruin your chance to even beat the game.
3. Enemies go hostile permanently. Some games will let you pay a fine to a guard and make them friendly again but most games don't.
4. It encourages people to cheat the game by saving before the steal attempt and reloading if they fail. I can honestly say that my characters in these games have a 100% steal success rate because I always reload when fail. Why wouldn't I when the price of failure is so high?
And the last reason is because it kills game immersion. Save/Reload is bad enough but it gets worse. If I save a guy's farm from wolf attacks. He will think I am a hero. If he see me try to steal 5 gold from someone else later on, suddenly I am his worst enemy. In fact, I re-installed Baldur's Gate to test this. A quick summary of the start of the game is you live in Candlekeep and you are being targeted by assassins for some unknown reason. You need to find your loving foster father Gorion and get to somewhere safe. If you fail to pickpocket Gorion (and you will if you try), he will instantly kill you with a Lightning Bolt. That makes complete sense. I love my child and I need to save him from assassins BUT HE TRIED TO STEAL FROM ME!!!? RAAAAAAAR *kills Player Character*.
Now the above rant does have a point. Failing at stealing is always a worst case scenario. In Gemstone 4, people will react the same way when a steal attempt goes bad. There isn't much choice on either side on how to continue. Sure, you can roleplay it out but if they took an item, they don't have to give it back to you. But even if they do, nothing is going to stop you from bad mouthing the thief and making their life horrible. Further, I don't see the point in stealing because nothing I can take is worth the risk. I will not ruin my gaming experience on the off chance someone might see me steal a blue crystal. On the other side, you shouldn't be able to steal super valuable items. I shouldn't be able to steal a 10x undead bane sword. The amount of drama and problems it will cause would destroy the game. The only way Pickpocketing would work is to make it part of a larger system you opt into that warns players of the risks. This system would need to make it worth the risk for both the thieves and the non-thieves.
I think we should look at how pickpocket and stealing works in other games for inspiration. I'll divide it into stealing from hostile enemies and stealing from friendly NCPs.
STEALING FROM HOSTILE ENEMIES
>Stealing from critters is a common request, but you were probably going to kill it and loot its corpse anyway, so that doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
Funny you say that Ixix, because that's how it works in most RPGs and I can't think of any game that actually tried to explain why it works that way.
Final Fantasy is the first game series I played that allowed you to steal from enemies and almost all turn based RPGs use similar stealing systems. You have a steal command, you pick an enemy target and you might steal something from it. This is usually some random item that they would not otherwise drop after the fight. In the case of rare enemies or bosses, the item you steal might not even be found anywhere else in the game. The stealing mechanics have varied game to game. Some games have enemies that only carry one item you can steal. Other games might have enemies that carry a common item and a rare item and what you steal depends on your luck.
Final Fantasy Tactics had a stealing system that allowed you to steal the equipped enemies instead of some random items they were carrying. Don't like that Samurai hitting you with his sword? Steal it. Now he barely does any damage. That Lancer has too much HP? Steal his armor. He just lost +100 HP permanently. There is a Knight that keeps blocking all your attacks? Steal his shield. He ain't blocking anything now! See a nice accessory that you can't buy from the store on a Priest? Steal it! They don't benefit from it anymore and you can use it yourself later. This is the best example of tactical stealing I've seen. It lets you weaken targets in addition to getting cool loot.
I thought of a game that had a stealing-like mechanic that would be very useful in Gemstone. It's the Barbarian's Find Item skill from Diablo 2. To summarize the skill, you use it on the corpse of slain monster and you have a chance to get an extra item drop from the monster as if you had killed it a second time. The logic behind this skill is that the Barbarian searches more thoroughly and spends more time looking for items than other characters. A quick brainstorm on a system like this in Gemstone would be a special search verb that causes hard roundtime but has a chance to get more loot from a critter when you search it. It would takes Pickpocket and Perception into consideration when determining if more loot was found. This search couldn't make the critter drop more loot than it otherwise could (ie it takes hunting pressure into consideration). Likewise, you wouldn't find extra loot on a critter if it dropped a box or doesn't drop anything at all. In fact, make a special message when you try to use it on critters that can't drop items like Giant Rats or Roltons.
Reverse Pickpockering is tactic I've seen some games like in the Fallout series. This means instead of taking an item from the target, you plant something on them such as a live grenade. It can be a really good way to start a fight but I don't think it translates into Gemstone well because of how fast players kill critters. It's extra time that would be better spent just killing the creature instead. This sort of thing makes more sense in tactical turn based games.
STEALING FROM FRIENDLY NPCS
Games series like Fallout and Elder Scrolls have systems where you can take items for friendly NPCs and to be honest, all these systems are the same and they are all terrible. The basic idea is that you approach a target while in stealth and open their inventory to see a list of items you can steal with percentages of how hard it would be to steal. If you succeed, you get the item and continue playing like nothing happened. Fail and EVERYONE nearby will goes hostile and will try to kill you. Failures like this are bad for a number of reasons:
1. This is an overreaction to stealing a minor item like a healing potion or a handful of ammo. NPCs react to a failed pickpocket attempt the exact same way as attacking someone.
2. You lose access to anything those NPCs could provide you. No more shops, quests, or recruitable allies. Heck, sometimes you can make essential (unkillable, need for the plot) characters go hostile and ruin your chance to even beat the game.
3. Enemies go hostile permanently. Some games will let you pay a fine to a guard and make them friendly again but most games don't.
4. It encourages people to cheat the game by saving before the steal attempt and reloading if they fail. I can honestly say that my characters in these games have a 100% steal success rate because I always reload when fail. Why wouldn't I when the price of failure is so high?
And the last reason is because it kills game immersion. Save/Reload is bad enough but it gets worse. If I save a guy's farm from wolf attacks. He will think I am a hero. If he see me try to steal 5 gold from someone else later on, suddenly I am his worst enemy. In fact, I re-installed Baldur's Gate to test this. A quick summary of the start of the game is you live in Candlekeep and you are being targeted by assassins for some unknown reason. You need to find your loving foster father Gorion and get to somewhere safe. If you fail to pickpocket Gorion (and you will if you try), he will instantly kill you with a Lightning Bolt. That makes complete sense. I love my child and I need to save him from assassins BUT HE TRIED TO STEAL FROM ME!!!? RAAAAAAAR *kills Player Character*.
Now the above rant does have a point. Failing at stealing is always a worst case scenario. In Gemstone 4, people will react the same way when a steal attempt goes bad. There isn't much choice on either side on how to continue. Sure, you can roleplay it out but if they took an item, they don't have to give it back to you. But even if they do, nothing is going to stop you from bad mouthing the thief and making their life horrible. Further, I don't see the point in stealing because nothing I can take is worth the risk. I will not ruin my gaming experience on the off chance someone might see me steal a blue crystal. On the other side, you shouldn't be able to steal super valuable items. I shouldn't be able to steal a 10x undead bane sword. The amount of drama and problems it will cause would destroy the game. The only way Pickpocketing would work is to make it part of a larger system you opt into that warns players of the risks. This system would need to make it worth the risk for both the thieves and the non-thieves.
Nice writeup MWESTERBECK1.
>> The only way Pickpocketing would work is to make it part of a larger system you opt into that warns players of the risks. This system would need to make it worth the risk for both the thieves and the non-thieves.
This is a great point that I would like to see expanded on if anyone has some thoughts to share on this.
One area where I think Gemstone needs to improve is on the risk side for the pickpocket. Let's say we come up with some great ideas to get people to want to opt-in... I still don't want to see rogues running around stealing from players 24x7. Earlier in this thread (I think it was this thread) were some suggestions on how to make the justice system a more effective deterrent for pick pockets. Without something in place that lets people feel that "justice is being served" when a rogue gets caught I don't think we'll see any positive movement for the pick pocketing system.
Any thoughts or ideas around that aspect? I think most games tend to minimize the penalty for the rogue because it's usually player vs. NPCs so who cares if the NPC gets a fair shake?
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
>> The only way Pickpocketing would work is to make it part of a larger system you opt into that warns players of the risks. This system would need to make it worth the risk for both the thieves and the non-thieves.
This is a great point that I would like to see expanded on if anyone has some thoughts to share on this.
One area where I think Gemstone needs to improve is on the risk side for the pickpocket. Let's say we come up with some great ideas to get people to want to opt-in... I still don't want to see rogues running around stealing from players 24x7. Earlier in this thread (I think it was this thread) were some suggestions on how to make the justice system a more effective deterrent for pick pockets. Without something in place that lets people feel that "justice is being served" when a rogue gets caught I don't think we'll see any positive movement for the pick pocketing system.
Any thoughts or ideas around that aspect? I think most games tend to minimize the penalty for the rogue because it's usually player vs. NPCs so who cares if the NPC gets a fair shake?
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
>Any thoughts or ideas around that aspect? I think most games tend to minimize the penalty for the rogue because it's usually player vs. NPCs so who cares if the NPC gets a fair shake?
Pickpocketing needs to offer more to players. It can't be just a PvP skill. Nothing else in Gemstone is PvP only except for Pickpocketing.
I took a peek at the Dragonrealms wiki to see how they handle this sort of thing. What I took away from it is that the Thievery skill, Justice system, Social Outrage system, and PvP system are much more advanced in regards to handling stealing. Thievery can be used to make money at higher levels by stealing from shops. You can't steal from critters but you can steal from other players roughly the same way as in Gemstone but it makes use of the PvP system by locking your PvP stance to open for a few hours. I think Dragonrealms has some good ideas justice wise and we could learn a bit from them since Gemstone's justice system is lacking.
In my opinion, the following things need to happen to make Pickpocketing workable.
1. The skill should be renamed to broaden what it can do. Thievery and Sleight of Hand might not be broad enough names. We need to be careful of running into an overlap with Disarm and Lockpicking if the skill is misnamed.
2. Pickpocketing needs to work against critters/NPCs somehow or something new altogether. The skill cannot remain PvP only.
3. We need a better justice system to handle stealing. PvP is frowned upon in Gemstone 4 and violence is usually the first thing people turn to when they notice theft. Players need a better choice.
There isn't a quick fix for Pickpocketing. I don't think anything short of a few system overhauls will be needed to get the skill into a good place for the players.
Pickpocketing needs to offer more to players. It can't be just a PvP skill. Nothing else in Gemstone is PvP only except for Pickpocketing.
I took a peek at the Dragonrealms wiki to see how they handle this sort of thing. What I took away from it is that the Thievery skill, Justice system, Social Outrage system, and PvP system are much more advanced in regards to handling stealing. Thievery can be used to make money at higher levels by stealing from shops. You can't steal from critters but you can steal from other players roughly the same way as in Gemstone but it makes use of the PvP system by locking your PvP stance to open for a few hours. I think Dragonrealms has some good ideas justice wise and we could learn a bit from them since Gemstone's justice system is lacking.
In my opinion, the following things need to happen to make Pickpocketing workable.
1. The skill should be renamed to broaden what it can do. Thievery and Sleight of Hand might not be broad enough names. We need to be careful of running into an overlap with Disarm and Lockpicking if the skill is misnamed.
2. Pickpocketing needs to work against critters/NPCs somehow or something new altogether. The skill cannot remain PvP only.
3. We need a better justice system to handle stealing. PvP is frowned upon in Gemstone 4 and violence is usually the first thing people turn to when they notice theft. Players need a better choice.
There isn't a quick fix for Pickpocketing. I don't think anything short of a few system overhauls will be needed to get the skill into a good place for the players.
"There isn't a quick fix for Pickpocketing. I don't think anything short of a few system overhauls will be needed to get the skill into a good place for the players." -- MWesterbeck1
Whereas disabling a verb or two & turning on Fast Skill Migration to let everyone untrain whatever points they've sunk into the skill could probably be done in, well... I'm thinking 2 hours, tops.
.
.
(I'm not downplaying the research you did into how DR does it, which I appreciate. And I agree with you on there being much to take away from the newer game's system; it was a very thoughtful post. I'm just pointing out that there IS a--very quick!--way to address things. :)
Whereas disabling a verb or two & turning on Fast Skill Migration to let everyone untrain whatever points they've sunk into the skill could probably be done in, well... I'm thinking 2 hours, tops.
.
.
(I'm not downplaying the research you did into how DR does it, which I appreciate. And I agree with you on there being much to take away from the newer game's system; it was a very thoughtful post. I'm just pointing out that there IS a--very quick!--way to address things. :)
>> I'm not downplaying the research you did into how DR does it, which I appreciate. And I agree with you on there being much to take away from the newer game's system; it was a very thoughtful post. I'm just pointing out that there IS a--very quick!--way to address things. :)
Sorry Robert. That's not a solution to improving / making PP work! Try again! :p
I actually wasn't aware that DR had such robust systems around PVP, Justice, and Social Outrage (sweet!). It's been a good 15+ years since I've even set foot in DR though and I wasn't there for very long when I did. I'd love to hear more about DRs Justice and Social Outrage systems (I love this as a basic concept without even knowing what it actually does in DR)!
I think PP has it's place as a rogue skill and MWESTERBECK1 has provided some high level insight / direction into how that might be accomplished.
-- Robert
Sorry Robert. That's not a solution to improving / making PP work! Try again! :p
I actually wasn't aware that DR had such robust systems around PVP, Justice, and Social Outrage (sweet!). It's been a good 15+ years since I've even set foot in DR though and I wasn't there for very long when I did. I'd love to hear more about DRs Justice and Social Outrage systems (I love this as a basic concept without even knowing what it actually does in DR)!
I think PP has it's place as a rogue skill and MWESTERBECK1 has provided some high level insight / direction into how that might be accomplished.
-- Robert
I seem to recall a game I played long ago (Everquest maybe?) that had a separate loot stash for monsters that could be stolen. That way you didn't piss off people by hiding and looting from critters that were generating nd they were killing. If the monster found you, you went way high up on the hate list-and the hate list of nearby mobs, giving you lots of risk for the extra reward.
Might have been another game, but as a rogue I thought the system worked well.
Might have been another game, but as a rogue I thought the system worked well.
