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>The promised service was the quest. Prizes are a plus, that's fine, but the QUEST is what you're paying for. That product was delivered. Nobody has come even close to a tier 6 prize, so the fact that they changed at the last minute in no way devalued anyone's experience.
The promised service was a quest with prizes. Changing the nature of the prizes is no different than changing the nature of the quest. It doesn't matter that no one has gotten a tier 6. At no point is any prize guaranteed, but the nature of said prizes should not be subject to change "after sale/before run". Change it after a run, thats fine. But you don't sell it and change it. And if you do, you offer a refund.
If I sign up for any kind of real life event, and then AFTER I have paid, the quality of any element of that experience is knowingly and willingly reduced by the company selling said event, then the option for a refund should be in order. It doesn't matter that ultimately the change in prizes was minor. It doesn't matter that no one would have won anyway. Its absolutely trashy customer service, and depending on who you ask, its illegal.
If you sell someone a lottery ticket with a grand prize of $100,000 advertised, but after selling the tickets (yet before running the numbers) they inform you that the people running the lottery have "decided" that the grand prize should be reduced to $75,000, thats fraud. Store credit is not a refund.
>2. I know that one DM run has forever soured ticket sales for everyone and you're going to hold it over our heads kind of like monks were. We have been suitably chastised. Surely there is something else to move on to.
Why move on when Simu is repeating the same mistakes? I knew nothing about this DM run before this, but now the policies in place have just established that Simu's quest events may be fun when all goes well, but god forbid there is any dispute, because you will be screwed. One bad DM run is a mistake. A DM run and then this is establishing a trend, a reputation, and every time you do it, it is at the risk of losing customers. "Better hold onto that $14 with an iron grip, oh wait, we just lost a $15-$40 a month customer. Oh well." Customer service has never been about the customer, its about the company keeping customers. So its not just rude, its a poorly run business.
>If I was a GM that just worked my butt off putting out this great product, only to have it utterly disregarded because of this petty nonsense over prizes most people won't come close to winning, I would feel pretty fed up right about now.
I have no beef with the designers. I just have an issue with whoever has decided that you can't get a refund, as well as the people who decided that they couldn't honor the original prize tier for the already sold runs. Either of those would have entirely solved the issue. No one would have won the tier-6 prizes (so no loss to game balance) and the person getting a refund would have been appeased and probably spent the money on something else (basically the same result as credit). So why the money-grubbing?
________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg.
>"Walkar says, "Yes, too many kings never work. Especially when there's only one throne. It's a wicked game."
>Shameless plug.
>You know when someone says refund my understanding of refund is written in the oxford dictionary. So unfortunatly your supposition of in-store credit is flawed.
Yeah, not going to get into a semantics debate. Pulling up the definition of refund is akin to pulling up the definition of marriage. Ask politicians how that works for them.
My point isn't about WHY he wanted it. Why is, at this point, an unimportant, dead factor, so bringing that up does nothing for the argument.
My point is that the method for problem solving is beyond flawed and won't fix his problem, and only make things worse for everyone all around. It'll make people mad for no reason that they need to be involved in, it will cause people actually WANT to help their customers, but can't because it's not in their power heart ache, and in the end is not a constructive manner to deal with a problem. Personally, I think it's a perfectly fine refund, when the person admit's he'd just use the money towards one of the same products in the end. Nothing is actually lost in the situation, there is no hardship, there is no ripoff, in the end, the argument is down to the actual location of the money, and the desire to lodge a complaint where no one can fix the problem.
Yeah, not going to get into a semantics debate. Pulling up the definition of refund is akin to pulling up the definition of marriage. Ask politicians how that works for them.
My point isn't about WHY he wanted it. Why is, at this point, an unimportant, dead factor, so bringing that up does nothing for the argument.
My point is that the method for problem solving is beyond flawed and won't fix his problem, and only make things worse for everyone all around. It'll make people mad for no reason that they need to be involved in, it will cause people actually WANT to help their customers, but can't because it's not in their power heart ache, and in the end is not a constructive manner to deal with a problem. Personally, I think it's a perfectly fine refund, when the person admit's he'd just use the money towards one of the same products in the end. Nothing is actually lost in the situation, there is no hardship, there is no ripoff, in the end, the argument is down to the actual location of the money, and the desire to lodge a complaint where no one can fix the problem.
well the current debate wasn't exactly what I had in mind with the post. Kallindra we get along as players but I think you read a little to much into posts and love pouncing on the boards a bit to much.
For Sleken, well explaining it takes the fun out of the comment.
I was getting slightly annoyed and wanted to vent a bit as Sleken complained about me doing. Did I go back and forth with the proper channels, yeah somethings take longer then one would like. Although the delay doesn't seem to be Simutronics fault if that makes anyone happy. I decided to be patient and give it a couple more weeks before making up my mind.
I think before everyone gets all up in arms for or against what I said in the first post, they need to really read the second one especially the end.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
For Sleken, well explaining it takes the fun out of the comment.
I was getting slightly annoyed and wanted to vent a bit as Sleken complained about me doing. Did I go back and forth with the proper channels, yeah somethings take longer then one would like. Although the delay doesn't seem to be Simutronics fault if that makes anyone happy. I decided to be patient and give it a couple more weeks before making up my mind.
I think before everyone gets all up in arms for or against what I said in the first post, they need to really read the second one especially the end.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
I think for the amount I really post 'love to pounce' is likely an exaggeration. I have no interest in 'pouncing', but there are often things said that have more of an effect than people realize... and after sitting quietly for weeks, I get fed up with it.
Every little thing we do effects all of our over-all experiences. We recently had an event over in Plat, which is likely where my apparent 'pouncing' comes in to your mind, where people vastly over-reacted, and harmed a newly budding relationship that can be wonderful for our community, because people lacked the patience to wait and see.
So that's why I pounce, because my issue comes where people say these things and don't consider the all around consequences. Yeah, it might be 'just a little venting' but it gets blown out or proportion quickly, mostly by players who often feel like they're the victims of some giant conspiracy, when the actual event is something minor at best.
Every little thing we do effects all of our over-all experiences. We recently had an event over in Plat, which is likely where my apparent 'pouncing' comes in to your mind, where people vastly over-reacted, and harmed a newly budding relationship that can be wonderful for our community, because people lacked the patience to wait and see.
So that's why I pounce, because my issue comes where people say these things and don't consider the all around consequences. Yeah, it might be 'just a little venting' but it gets blown out or proportion quickly, mostly by players who often feel like they're the victims of some giant conspiracy, when the actual event is something minor at best.
Couple of thoughts.
Happy that Simu is issuing credit. Not sure how I feel personally about 'in-store' versus 'cash'. But, it doesn't apply to me personally, yet.
Will say that if anyone doesn't feel 'in-store' is fair, I don't expect the next words to leave their fingertips to be 'I'll use it'. If one's going to be convicted, be convicted, not partially convicted.
If it didn't apply, stop agitating. We can all sit in our cozy chairs and kibitz to define it by several terms, but if there's no personal cash dog in the hunt, butt the <expletive deleted> out. And if you do have a personal cash dog in the hunt, take it to Billing is the suggestion. Love it! Makes two of us happy, which is always the goal -- greater happiness.
On monks -- I think every single effort should be compared to monks. Monks were delivered, and exceeded expectations. That it took time to get there is fine (by me) -- those that didn't want to wait amused themselves in other ways, and came back. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me.
The player base is only now assessing what the monk deployment might mean to them -- and of course, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt are kicking on. Much like the 'convicted' comment to the customer base, I'd suggest no waffling to NIR. Be convicted. Don't let FUD factor sway you.
Oh, but -- as a convicted customer -- don't touch Haste.
I got my eye on you, Sleken and Finros.
And to keep it in line -- I look forward to participating in this revamped challenge of the ages. Just as soon as I can. Feel free to change what you must in my view to make it fun and challenging and appropriately rewarding.
Except for that part where you disable Haste. Don't think I don't know about that . . .
Doug
Happy that Simu is issuing credit. Not sure how I feel personally about 'in-store' versus 'cash'. But, it doesn't apply to me personally, yet.
Will say that if anyone doesn't feel 'in-store' is fair, I don't expect the next words to leave their fingertips to be 'I'll use it'. If one's going to be convicted, be convicted, not partially convicted.
If it didn't apply, stop agitating. We can all sit in our cozy chairs and kibitz to define it by several terms, but if there's no personal cash dog in the hunt, butt the <expletive deleted> out. And if you do have a personal cash dog in the hunt, take it to Billing is the suggestion. Love it! Makes two of us happy, which is always the goal -- greater happiness.
On monks -- I think every single effort should be compared to monks. Monks were delivered, and exceeded expectations. That it took time to get there is fine (by me) -- those that didn't want to wait amused themselves in other ways, and came back. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me.
The player base is only now assessing what the monk deployment might mean to them -- and of course, Fear Uncertainty and Doubt are kicking on. Much like the 'convicted' comment to the customer base, I'd suggest no waffling to NIR. Be convicted. Don't let FUD factor sway you.
Oh, but -- as a convicted customer -- don't touch Haste.
I got my eye on you, Sleken and Finros.
And to keep it in line -- I look forward to participating in this revamped challenge of the ages. Just as soon as I can. Feel free to change what you must in my view to make it fun and challenging and appropriately rewarding.
Except for that part where you disable Haste. Don't think I don't know about that . . .
Doug
ha ha I'll give you that, the "pouncing poster" (I'm calling you that from now on ;P) probably does stick out in my mind more then the other posts though.
As to consequences, ehh other then maybe some people getting worked up who aren't affected, which is silly anyway, I really don't see any. Most will forget or not care in a month in all honesty. Oh sure they can ban me, but I have not even come close to that line per Forum etiquette or e-mails as I talk with staff. The "pocket change" post is as snarky as I've gotten.
I'll see you next week when I have time to log in again, as long as this post hasn't warranted me being banned now.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
As to consequences, ehh other then maybe some people getting worked up who aren't affected, which is silly anyway, I really don't see any. Most will forget or not care in a month in all honesty. Oh sure they can ban me, but I have not even come close to that line per Forum etiquette or e-mails as I talk with staff. The "pocket change" post is as snarky as I've gotten.
I'll see you next week when I have time to log in again, as long as this post hasn't warranted me being banned now.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
Refund.. Lets see.
Ever go to Best buy, buy a dvd player, decide it is not the right one for you, take it back, and have the Customer Service Manager say "Sure, we can give you an in store credit towards a future purchase"
I seriously doubt it.
The only time this ever happens, is if the store allows returns without receipts. Example, Walmart will return anything they sell, period. But if it is over 25 bucks, and you don't have a receipt, it's in store credit only.
Now, it's possible Simu could just create a policy that stats, ALL REFUNDS, if allowed, are in box office credit only. One person shouldn't say one thing, then someone else tell them something different.
and to Doug, if you say X is X or Y is Y don't promise/say you will deliver A if you honestly intend to hand out Z. Basically that was my point to the guy in charge. Have they ever offered a refund in the past? not that I know of. Did they this time? yes and I took them up on it.
I'm a contractor if I did that I'd never work again, or shortly wouldn't be.
As to the "I'll use it" well with RtCF coming up I would, if it was cash out of pocket or the credit, as I plan on going. If not RtCF then when EG gets here. If in my shoes to imply you'd make them hold that credit till the issue is solved is just silly and not very likely in all honesty.
Honesty seems to be lacking by some people from time to time, but I don't see the need not to be myself.
Alright you all enjoy yourselves on the quest, I won't be checking this particular folder out much after tonight.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
I'm a contractor if I did that I'd never work again, or shortly wouldn't be.
As to the "I'll use it" well with RtCF coming up I would, if it was cash out of pocket or the credit, as I plan on going. If not RtCF then when EG gets here. If in my shoes to imply you'd make them hold that credit till the issue is solved is just silly and not very likely in all honesty.
Honesty seems to be lacking by some people from time to time, but I don't see the need not to be myself.
Alright you all enjoy yourselves on the quest, I won't be checking this particular folder out much after tonight.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
>The promised service was the quest. Prizes are a plus, that's fine, but the QUEST is what you're paying for.
~ Heathyr and friends
No.
The quest was advertised along with the prizes (regardless of the actual prizes themselves or if they changed). The quest and a prize go hand in hand.
>>I think priorities are way out of whack here.
Why should your priorities be the same as mine?
>First of all, from all indications it was an honest mistake with no intent to "bait and switch." Simu has no reason to resort to such practices.
Simu has every reason to do this. And it's happened. Not this time, but I have every belief it has happened prior.
>Second, even though the prizes may have changed, they are still great and well worth the price, alone.
I agree.
>Finally, you may see it differently, but the product is the quest. If it was only about the prizes, they could have just sold raffle tickets and saved themselves months of hard work.
This isn't a RP storyline that anyone can join and have fun. This is a quest. A paid quest. A paid quest that comes with a prize. You might like the quest, but both parts go together and you can't separate them.
When have you ever seen a paid quest offered with nothing given at the end?
You haven't.
Now, as for the credit issue and prize changes, I have no real issue with the credit and think I've spoken my piece earlier on the changes themselves.
-farmer
~ Heathyr and friends
No.
The quest was advertised along with the prizes (regardless of the actual prizes themselves or if they changed). The quest and a prize go hand in hand.
>>I think priorities are way out of whack here.
Why should your priorities be the same as mine?
>First of all, from all indications it was an honest mistake with no intent to "bait and switch." Simu has no reason to resort to such practices.
Simu has every reason to do this. And it's happened. Not this time, but I have every belief it has happened prior.
>Second, even though the prizes may have changed, they are still great and well worth the price, alone.
I agree.
>Finally, you may see it differently, but the product is the quest. If it was only about the prizes, they could have just sold raffle tickets and saved themselves months of hard work.
This isn't a RP storyline that anyone can join and have fun. This is a quest. A paid quest. A paid quest that comes with a prize. You might like the quest, but both parts go together and you can't separate them.
When have you ever seen a paid quest offered with nothing given at the end?
You haven't.
Now, as for the credit issue and prize changes, I have no real issue with the credit and think I've spoken my piece earlier on the changes themselves.
-farmer
The issue is no one forgets. We all have memories like angry women here... everything's fine until the next time you do something that even remotely resembles an episode we went through once before, be it 2 days or 15 years ago. *Disclaimer: If I've offended any women with this statement... I'm sorry but it's true*
And I'm not talking about personal consequences. I'm not so worried as to how it effects you specifically... as I am how it effects me, or the 'general public'. While you do get to be part of the general public, less than constructive criticism can have negative effects. Issue is Simu's been here a long time, and in that course of things, they've had a lot of time to screw up, and for some people, they've done it more than once, for some people, it may have been more deliberate than others, in some cases, it may have been a complete accident... in one or two situations it's just someone who's very difficult to make happy... the exact situation doesn't matter, what does is that many if not most of us have grown up on this game, and have grown perhaps more attached and entitled about its running than we really have a right to, which often turns into a demanding fit towards people who put a lot of hard work in... that's not to say sometimes it isn't deserved, they screw up.
Each one of these damages the player/GM relationship, which in turn damages the game, maybe not for the one player, but it has a reaching effect to everyone... the talkative GM that took one too many rippings when they were just trying to do something fun, the one that was always helpful, but couldn't that once because it was beyond their control, and the player combusted... these things happen every day... while again I'm not saying there aren't situations people aren't right to be upset, how we express it is an important thing to consider if we want this game to not only continue, but grow in a positive manner.
One of the wonderful things about Gemstone is our ability TO effect the outcomes, our hand in it's growing, the actual community it has grown over the years. We're all in this together, and we do much better working together than we do fighting each other.
Sometimes we do have to be more forgiving, and sometimes Simu has to be more conceding to our own issues (which honestly I feel they've been making good strides towards).
Maybe it's a happy bunny pipe dream to think we could work together, learn to forgive, not forget, but work to improve the past... but I think it's a worthwhile goal to point out when people start working the opposite direction.
Also I look forward to seeing you when you manage to get back in ;)
And I'm not talking about personal consequences. I'm not so worried as to how it effects you specifically... as I am how it effects me, or the 'general public'. While you do get to be part of the general public, less than constructive criticism can have negative effects. Issue is Simu's been here a long time, and in that course of things, they've had a lot of time to screw up, and for some people, they've done it more than once, for some people, it may have been more deliberate than others, in some cases, it may have been a complete accident... in one or two situations it's just someone who's very difficult to make happy... the exact situation doesn't matter, what does is that many if not most of us have grown up on this game, and have grown perhaps more attached and entitled about its running than we really have a right to, which often turns into a demanding fit towards people who put a lot of hard work in... that's not to say sometimes it isn't deserved, they screw up.
Each one of these damages the player/GM relationship, which in turn damages the game, maybe not for the one player, but it has a reaching effect to everyone... the talkative GM that took one too many rippings when they were just trying to do something fun, the one that was always helpful, but couldn't that once because it was beyond their control, and the player combusted... these things happen every day... while again I'm not saying there aren't situations people aren't right to be upset, how we express it is an important thing to consider if we want this game to not only continue, but grow in a positive manner.
One of the wonderful things about Gemstone is our ability TO effect the outcomes, our hand in it's growing, the actual community it has grown over the years. We're all in this together, and we do much better working together than we do fighting each other.
Sometimes we do have to be more forgiving, and sometimes Simu has to be more conceding to our own issues (which honestly I feel they've been making good strides towards).
Maybe it's a happy bunny pipe dream to think we could work together, learn to forgive, not forget, but work to improve the past... but I think it's a worthwhile goal to point out when people start working the opposite direction.
Also I look forward to seeing you when you manage to get back in ;)
ohh and in case it wasn't clear somewhere, the debate between refund and credit should be dead. There is a hangup and it is being dealt with.
Now more chatter about this quest you all want to do!
And to that end if it takes the designer/person in charge/The man with all the answers/the Guru with the cheat sheet 90 minutes to do, I'd expect it to take players about 7-10 runs before they can actually finish it.
But that's just from my one and only runs worth of experience.
I do like the idea of the automated quests for the future, maybe tiering the hardness of the quests might be a thought for future ones. Kinda like the old video games you can do easy, medium, hard, or insane/super hard and the ending/prizes then differ depending on what you picked to do. Could be as easy as omitting/adding in parts to the same quest area. Then again that could be a bigger pain to set it up that way, I just think everyone likes to see the ending.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
Now more chatter about this quest you all want to do!
And to that end if it takes the designer/person in charge/The man with all the answers/the Guru with the cheat sheet 90 minutes to do, I'd expect it to take players about 7-10 runs before they can actually finish it.
But that's just from my one and only runs worth of experience.
I do like the idea of the automated quests for the future, maybe tiering the hardness of the quests might be a thought for future ones. Kinda like the old video games you can do easy, medium, hard, or insane/super hard and the ending/prizes then differ depending on what you picked to do. Could be as easy as omitting/adding in parts to the same quest area. Then again that could be a bigger pain to set it up that way, I just think everyone likes to see the ending.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
>>If in my shoes to imply you'd make them hold that credit till the issue is solved is just silly and not very likely in all honesty.
No implications. My point wasn't really directed at you, Senglent, but is definitely a stated line in the sand against what seems to be an overwhelming position of the customer rules the business.
Simple statement -- if one accepts a recompense, then in general grouses about it, I would say that shows a bit of character challenge. I'm too lazy to go back and see if you did it personally, Senglent, and given your commitment to honesty and meeting agreements as you expressed in your point, I'll be surprised if you did.
Included was a point about me being unsure if full on refund or future 'in-store' purchases is me simply stating my perspective. Of course, Best Buy was brought forward as the example to counter. Interestingly enough, there are many categories of purchase at even, specifically, Best Buy, that if you bring it back they will only exchange, not refund.
In fact, many businesses now do the 'in-store' or 'exchange for' return to attempt to mollify customers. Doesn't really bother me too much personally because I'm careful enough to know what I'm dealing with -- and accept at point of purchase what it is. That, or I simply don't make the purchase.
That's just me, though. Offered in the context of better understanding of my expressed view. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing implied and nothing hidden.
Doug
No implications. My point wasn't really directed at you, Senglent, but is definitely a stated line in the sand against what seems to be an overwhelming position of the customer rules the business.
Simple statement -- if one accepts a recompense, then in general grouses about it, I would say that shows a bit of character challenge. I'm too lazy to go back and see if you did it personally, Senglent, and given your commitment to honesty and meeting agreements as you expressed in your point, I'll be surprised if you did.
Included was a point about me being unsure if full on refund or future 'in-store' purchases is me simply stating my perspective. Of course, Best Buy was brought forward as the example to counter. Interestingly enough, there are many categories of purchase at even, specifically, Best Buy, that if you bring it back they will only exchange, not refund.
In fact, many businesses now do the 'in-store' or 'exchange for' return to attempt to mollify customers. Doesn't really bother me too much personally because I'm careful enough to know what I'm dealing with -- and accept at point of purchase what it is. That, or I simply don't make the purchase.
That's just me, though. Offered in the context of better understanding of my expressed view. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing implied and nothing hidden.
Doug
