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Paladins have been getting love lately and were asked for ideas for 1650, so they have a good spot to talk about what they want. Wizards get more discussion than any two other professions combined other than sorcerers, so I'm sure they're talking about what they want. Many warriors, as ever, want 3x Combat Maneuvers (and I agree with them).
But what would you like to see happen with clerics in the future, be it this year, 2018, or further down the road? Let's talk about it. Here are just a few topics rolling around my mind... I could easily go into detail about any of them, but for now I'll only discuss my top pick since I know GMs can't work on everything in the world:
Spell gaps: 235, 250, and 320 are all empty high level slots! (150 too, but that's trickier because it's so widely available.) What would you like from them? Also, from a thread a little while back, many would like to see 330 become an innate cleric ability and possibly merge 309 and 315 (and I'd add 212 and 217 to that list), so if you agree, what would interest you in those slots? http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Cleric%20Spells/thread/1815457?get_newest=true
Versatility: how do we compare to other professions, especially other pures? Any holes you can see or is everything already good?
Lores: would you like thresholds and benefits reviewed? Or how about something entirely new?
Warding, bolting, swinging: what new offerings would you like to see from any of these hunting options?
Maneuver spells: SMRv2 just came out; would you like for clerics to have an SMR spell of their own?
Sanctification: should sanctified shields and armor be able to do something for clerics? Is there a way to make all those sanctified runestaves from the sewers good for something more than a laugh?
Arkati choice: is there room for even more distinction than we have now with Smite/Bane, different criticals, and different messaging? If so, what?
Skill caps: want any changes? 2x Physical Fitness for your Kai-following Sunfist cleric concept? 2x Armor Use because the new Armor Blessings makes you want to create a chain hauberk cleric?!
Alchemy: everyone's favorite thing, right? Any new payoffs you'd like to see for this grueling endeavor?
Major Spiritual: tying in with missing spell slots, would you like to have an incentive to train extra Major Spiritual ranks past 40 (pre-cap) or 67 (way post-cap) for a more interesting choice of spell training?
Utility: want one more spell we can cast on others or cast on a group? Anything else for utility?
Other: give us your own awesome idea! I'm out of topics. :P
Here's my top choice:
Lore Specialization and Spell 320/330 (if the current 330 is moved)
I'd like a buff spell that encourages devotion by utilizing lores well with high thresholds--think along the lines of Symbol of the Proselyte's progression... 10, 24, 50, 100, 150. Maybe a little less than that, but the idea is that just like clerics are dedicated to one Arkati, they can be rewarded for being dedicated to one lore or another as specialists. Here are some quick examples off the top of my head, not meant to be perfect or anything, but just to say something:
Religion lores: dedication to your Arkati rewards you with an extra burst of power: adds a chance for your attacks to have an extra SMR-based flare related to your Arkati's critical.
Blessing lores: your Arkati blesses you with phantom endroll boosts for AS-based attacks (melee, ranged, bolts, thrown)--and even better boosts if you're holding or wearing sanctified items! Yes, including those pesky sanctified runestaves.
Summoning lores: your Arkati commands the local spirits to gather mana for you in your hour of need: you can recover mana as you cast attack spells (from your own mana), with a better chance of it as the spells costs more and as your stance is more offensive.
Again, only quick ideas, but my overall thought would be to make going heavily into Religion pay off the best with this spell for warders, Blessing for weapons, and Summoning for bolting, all while the spell isn't too narrow with only one perk for each path since clerics do have incentives to train at least a bit of each lore. (e.g. Some notable landmarks are 65 Blessings for full chrisms, 30 Religion for acid Holy Bolt, and 20 Summoning for bolt Web, which is already 115 out of 202 lore ranks.)
I think almost anything I could want for a cleric that we don't have right now could be addressed with a single spell like this if done right. My main concern is versatility since I think wizards and empaths, two fellow pures, are just plain better at versatility than clerics because of Haste and Intensity respectively, which are also just individual spells. Cleric training point costs seem to encourage swinging as viable, but then they don't really have the power (or in wizards' case speed) to back it up at higher levels.
Aside from versatility, sanctification should matter more for clerics in my opinion... and I had hosted a small discussion on the Players' Corner last week where a few people mentioned often running out of mana with their bolting clerics. So I tossed those perks in for fun, but they're not my main priority or anything.
Going hand in hand with a spell like this, but only relevant for post-cap, I really want 3x spiritual lores. Clerics are spiritual masters and it would only make sense to me for them to have more freedom to specialize with lores than the hybrid empaths and sorcerers, but right now clerics wind up less flexible because they have the same 2x cap, but have to split it between three lores. And I don't mean that I'd want clerics to be able to do everything, but more that through their lore choices it should be viable to generalize or to pick one thing they want to do exceptionally well--the same idea that's behind my spell concept.
(Besides, Kaedra maxed every skill and now we have to give her something to do! 4848 more converted PTPs!)
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
Very thoughtful post, Leafiara! I agree with you on pretty much everything. I do believe Clerics are pretty well balanced combat wise. The only thing I can think of that we're really missing is a mana returning ability (same goes for Empaths). The 200s circle would be a great place for that I think, honestly. Interdiction would have been perfect if it had returned the mana to the caster. I may be in the minority on this, other folks may not be having the mana crunch issues I am, but at cap, trying to solo in the confluence with 161 cleric ranks and 400 mana, I STILL run out of mana long before I'm fried. That's the most pressing issue I can think of for clerics. While not specific to clerics, I would love to see 202 be stackable on other characters as well.
Given that I do have a cleric who throws bolts, I'd like to see a few more bolting options, especially something not designed for undead like 306 is but not so mana intensive as 111 and 118. Maybe it could be something like wizards got with 705--bolt versions of existing spells. A bolt version of 302 would be cool to have. Or maybe a non-undead option for 306 for clerics that are not focused on hunting undead. Maybe 306, like 302, could vary in effectiveness vs. undead and living based on deity choice.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
I would like if a combo of lores and cleric ranks would let a general cast of 315 uncurse multiple items on a person.
Also additional, selectable generic options for raise dead messaging (like manna's multiple breads). It would be really neat for less conventional or 'other' clerics.
Maybe there could be some kind of interaction with 340 and sanctified equipment? Like some kind of lesser but persistent for a fixed duration effect?
On a random, utility idea front, what if appraise or something similar for a command would give a caster the cost of variable spells such as 301 or 214? I think there are others also (maybe 501?), so it's not entirely cleric-specific.
I would also like some kind of SMR spell for 320 perhaps. I also probably have more ideas in my brain somewhere, but those're my thoughts for now.
Also additional, selectable generic options for raise dead messaging (like manna's multiple breads). It would be really neat for less conventional or 'other' clerics.
Maybe there could be some kind of interaction with 340 and sanctified equipment? Like some kind of lesser but persistent for a fixed duration effect?
On a random, utility idea front, what if appraise or something similar for a command would give a caster the cost of variable spells such as 301 or 214? I think there are others also (maybe 501?), so it's not entirely cleric-specific.
I would also like some kind of SMR spell for 320 perhaps. I also probably have more ideas in my brain somewhere, but those're my thoughts for now.
>On a random, utility idea front, what if appraise or something similar for a command would give a caster the cost of variable spells such as 301 or 214? I think there are others also (maybe 501?), so it's not entirely cleric-specific.
There are a lot of variable mana spells. I guess it's a decent mechanic, but in hindsight it seems fairly punitive in a game where mana can be sparse and overcasting has negative effects. At any rate: a command to show the current cost of each spell (spell all, for example) would be pretty useful for those who aren't scripting.
Different idea, but since sanctified equipment is so commonplace these days, and war clerics seem to be marginal after certain levels, maybe in the hands of a cleric white ora and eonake should have boosted stats. Holy water flares, at the very least, and maybe increased enchant or something. Would make more sense rolled into a self-cast spell.
There are a lot of variable mana spells. I guess it's a decent mechanic, but in hindsight it seems fairly punitive in a game where mana can be sparse and overcasting has negative effects. At any rate: a command to show the current cost of each spell (spell all, for example) would be pretty useful for those who aren't scripting.
Different idea, but since sanctified equipment is so commonplace these days, and war clerics seem to be marginal after certain levels, maybe in the hands of a cleric white ora and eonake should have boosted stats. Holy water flares, at the very least, and maybe increased enchant or something. Would make more sense rolled into a self-cast spell.
From BRANDTJRT:
>Maybe there could be some kind of interaction with 340 and sanctified equipment? Like some kind of lesser but persistent for a fixed duration effect?
From KANDOR:
>since sanctified equipment is so commonplace these days, and war clerics seem to be marginal after certain levels, maybe in the hands of a cleric white ora and eonake should have boosted stats. Holy water flares, at the very least, and maybe increased enchant or something. Would make more sense rolled into a self-cast spell.
I really like both of these thoughts!
The only thing I'd tweak, though, is that I'd rather have holy fire flares (in the vein of Brimstone gems or Symbol of Holiness, not normal fire flares) than holy water flares since, well... I don't know if holy water flares would do any good past 60 or so. I never stopped training to brawl, but from outgrowing Bonespear onward, my physical attacks have pretty much only been aimed at living creatures. All of the undead past waerns were either noncorporeal, in a very swarmy place, or gave me some other big reason not to stand there in offensive stance in hard RT even for a few seconds.
>Maybe there could be some kind of interaction with 340 and sanctified equipment? Like some kind of lesser but persistent for a fixed duration effect?
From KANDOR:
>since sanctified equipment is so commonplace these days, and war clerics seem to be marginal after certain levels, maybe in the hands of a cleric white ora and eonake should have boosted stats. Holy water flares, at the very least, and maybe increased enchant or something. Would make more sense rolled into a self-cast spell.
I really like both of these thoughts!
The only thing I'd tweak, though, is that I'd rather have holy fire flares (in the vein of Brimstone gems or Symbol of Holiness, not normal fire flares) than holy water flares since, well... I don't know if holy water flares would do any good past 60 or so. I never stopped training to brawl, but from outgrowing Bonespear onward, my physical attacks have pretty much only been aimed at living creatures. All of the undead past waerns were either noncorporeal, in a very swarmy place, or gave me some other big reason not to stand there in offensive stance in hard RT even for a few seconds.
Sanctification doesn't work for clerics, (unless its part of a designed package of properties) but its not supposed to. Weapon use is mutant.
>All of the undead past waerns were either noncorporeal, in a very swarmy place, or gave me some other big reason not to stand there in offensive stance in hard RT even for a few seconds.
Soul golems and Plane 3 n'ecare should both work, though Plane 5 is probably too swarmy.
>All of the undead past waerns were either noncorporeal, in a very swarmy place, or gave me some other big reason not to stand there in offensive stance in hard RT even for a few seconds.
Soul golems and Plane 3 n'ecare should both work, though Plane 5 is probably too swarmy.
>Sanctification doesn't work for clerics, (unless its part of a designed package of properties) but its not supposed to. Weapon use is mutant.
This design pattern is actually what I'm suggesting be fixed. It's bigger than clerics, of course, but it can be solved one step at a time. This game was partially founded on the principle that encourage mutant paths by making things difficult to train in -- not impossible. For example, warriors can train in spells, though this is completely counter to their profession. It is expensive to do so, but this is the idea. Paladins aren't the solution, no more than splitting the war-wizard off into its own class would be (or war-path, or any of the others). Rather than enabling 2x weapon training, I'd suggest giving clerics a spell that boosts their swing a little like a war-wizard. Better yet if it can make special use of eonake or white ora, which are traditional cleric weapons and have no other real use now.
This design pattern is actually what I'm suggesting be fixed. It's bigger than clerics, of course, but it can be solved one step at a time. This game was partially founded on the principle that encourage mutant paths by making things difficult to train in -- not impossible. For example, warriors can train in spells, though this is completely counter to their profession. It is expensive to do so, but this is the idea. Paladins aren't the solution, no more than splitting the war-wizard off into its own class would be (or war-path, or any of the others). Rather than enabling 2x weapon training, I'd suggest giving clerics a spell that boosts their swing a little like a war-wizard. Better yet if it can make special use of eonake or white ora, which are traditional cleric weapons and have no other real use now.
Years ago, when Sanctify was still in the Cleric list, I suggested that it work just like Enchant only twice as good. And, of course, against Undead only.
So you could get your 7x Sanctified weapon, and it would be +70 against Undead. You would have to be 35th level to pick it up. And it would be exactly +0 against non-Undead.
.
I further suggested, at that time, that white ora should always have holy water flares when swung by a Cleric, and eonak should have <something better, probably plasma>.
Nowadays, with the ability to EBlade (and give more-bonus & flares to) magical weapons, or Enchant flaring weapons, and holy weapons not being all that hot...
I think that any weapon--to include weighted, or already flaring--swung by a cleric should have holy water flares. (Yes, this means that you could have a lightning-flaring weapon get holy water flares when swung by a cleric. Bully for the cleric. Go nuts. There are already double-flaring weapons, like Paladins, and Bards.) To include runestaves.
Then, white ora should be more better. Like plasma flares, instead. Go ahead, get yourself a white ora runestaff...
And, eonake should be even more better. Like <something really cool>, instead. (And if there is such a thing as an eonake runestaff, go crazy.)
.
In addition, now that we have Symbol of the Proselyte, I see nothing wrong with permitting us to use multi-level ritual magic and turn our weapon into the strong Rod of <Pick Your Deity>'s Wrath. Give it extra special even more. Maybe dogmatic rivals receive a Bane effect?
.
Another possibility would be to allow multiple different effects, similar to what Ensorcel can do.
So you could get your 7x Sanctified weapon, and it would be +70 against Undead. You would have to be 35th level to pick it up. And it would be exactly +0 against non-Undead.
.
I further suggested, at that time, that white ora should always have holy water flares when swung by a Cleric, and eonak should have <something better, probably plasma>.
Nowadays, with the ability to EBlade (and give more-bonus & flares to) magical weapons, or Enchant flaring weapons, and holy weapons not being all that hot...
I think that any weapon--to include weighted, or already flaring--swung by a cleric should have holy water flares. (Yes, this means that you could have a lightning-flaring weapon get holy water flares when swung by a cleric. Bully for the cleric. Go nuts. There are already double-flaring weapons, like Paladins, and Bards.) To include runestaves.
Then, white ora should be more better. Like plasma flares, instead. Go ahead, get yourself a white ora runestaff...
And, eonake should be even more better. Like <something really cool>, instead. (And if there is such a thing as an eonake runestaff, go crazy.)
.
In addition, now that we have Symbol of the Proselyte, I see nothing wrong with permitting us to use multi-level ritual magic and turn our weapon into the strong Rod of <Pick Your Deity>'s Wrath. Give it extra special even more. Maybe dogmatic rivals receive a Bane effect?
.
Another possibility would be to allow multiple different effects, similar to what Ensorcel can do.
From RATHBONER:
>Sanctification doesn't work for clerics, (unless its part of a designed package of properties) but its not supposed to. Weapon use is mutant.
Three things:
1) Every sanctified item says "You sense that the [item] has been sanctified for use by a Cleric or Paladin in the fight against the undead" in ASSESS information that can only be seen by clerics and paladins. And here's a line from the cleric profession page: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/professions/clerics.asp
>As masters of this spiritual power, Clerics follow many paths; some as simple priests, others as crusaders devoted to preserving life whether by use of their spells or by dint of arms.
So I disagree that sanctification isn't supposed to work for clerics.
2) But let's say that's all outdated information and it really isn't supposed to work for clerics... In that case I think that's a problem. At very least it's a problem postcap, when even warriors can legitimately look forward to what they'll get out of training spells while clerics can't look forward to what they'll get out of training weapons.
3) Ironically enough... IMO naturally-sanctified weapons and armor are in a bad spot even for paladins, not just clerics. (Sanctified shields are fine.) Sanctified armor is good for, what, Bull Rush and that's it? And paladins eventually learn 1625 to make their own sanctified weapon, so they outgrow the need for sanctified weapons from boxes or paid events unless they're either TWC or want a backup weapon--and they even outgrow backup weapons after fully bonding. So I always have paladins in the back of my mind too and whether anything that's done with sanctified gear could be helpful to both professions at once.
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
>Sanctification doesn't work for clerics, (unless its part of a designed package of properties) but its not supposed to. Weapon use is mutant.
Three things:
1) Every sanctified item says "You sense that the [item] has been sanctified for use by a Cleric or Paladin in the fight against the undead" in ASSESS information that can only be seen by clerics and paladins. And here's a line from the cleric profession page: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/professions/clerics.asp
>As masters of this spiritual power, Clerics follow many paths; some as simple priests, others as crusaders devoted to preserving life whether by use of their spells or by dint of arms.
So I disagree that sanctification isn't supposed to work for clerics.
2) But let's say that's all outdated information and it really isn't supposed to work for clerics... In that case I think that's a problem. At very least it's a problem postcap, when even warriors can legitimately look forward to what they'll get out of training spells while clerics can't look forward to what they'll get out of training weapons.
3) Ironically enough... IMO naturally-sanctified weapons and armor are in a bad spot even for paladins, not just clerics. (Sanctified shields are fine.) Sanctified armor is good for, what, Bull Rush and that's it? And paladins eventually learn 1625 to make their own sanctified weapon, so they outgrow the need for sanctified weapons from boxes or paid events unless they're either TWC or want a backup weapon--and they even outgrow backup weapons after fully bonding. So I always have paladins in the back of my mind too and whether anything that's done with sanctified gear could be helpful to both professions at once.
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
>> Nowadays, with the ability to EBlade (and give more-bonus & flares to) magical weapons ~Robert/Krakii
Tangent, but I gotta say this new-to-me feature really ticked me off upon my return - I had an enchanted weapon that was still e-bladeable. It was once worth quite a bit and is now basically worthless. Thems the shakes I guess.
Tangent, but I gotta say this new-to-me feature really ticked me off upon my return - I had an enchanted weapon that was still e-bladeable. It was once worth quite a bit and is now basically worthless. Thems the shakes I guess.
>2) But let's say that's all outdated information and it really isn't supposed to work for clerics... In that case I think that's a problem. At very least it's a problem postcap, when even warriors can legitimately look forward to what they'll get out of training spells while clerics can't look forward to what they'll get out of training weapons.
Clerics get boosts to their normal attack form by training magic post cap, so do warriors. Where's the problem? Magic isn't an alternative attack form for post cap warriors, its buffs to weapon use, in the same sort of way that going full 3x spells/2x lores isn't an alternative attack form for clerics, its buffs to spells that are already known.
Clerics get boosts to their normal attack form by training magic post cap, so do warriors. Where's the problem? Magic isn't an alternative attack form for post cap warriors, its buffs to weapon use, in the same sort of way that going full 3x spells/2x lores isn't an alternative attack form for clerics, its buffs to spells that are already known.
It's not worthless, but it certainly is worth less.
(I have two...)
The advantage to our, old, items is that any nimrod with a wavable rod, or a rubbable bracelet, or an invokable scroll, can do the EBlade and get the full bonuses and the flares.
With NO LORE ranks trained.
.
.
(Since I'm using them on a Rogue, this means that I save a big ton of training points.)
(I have two...)
The advantage to our, old, items is that any nimrod with a wavable rod, or a rubbable bracelet, or an invokable scroll, can do the EBlade and get the full bonuses and the flares.
With NO LORE ranks trained.
.
.
(Since I'm using them on a Rogue, this means that I save a big ton of training points.)
>Clerics get boosts to their normal attack form by training magic post cap, so do warriors. Where's the problem? Magic isn't an alternative attack form for post cap warriors, its buffs to weapon use, in the same sort of way that going full 3x spells/2x lores isn't an alternative attack form for clerics, its buffs to spells that are already known.
I think either I gave a bad example or should have gone into more detail.
Most professions have things they're not "supposed" to train but will eventually train, for whatever reason--maybe it seems like the best mechanical option, maybe everything else has too marginal a benefit at 3x costs, maybe they've literally trained everything else already, maybe they have some RP reason to train that, or whatever the case might be.
And when warriors or rogues train spells/lores or when wizards train weapons/CM, they see a much bigger payoff than clerics--or sorcerers, for that matter--do from training weapons/CM, despite all of these professions being at the extreme ends of square and pure. (I won't comment on monks. I don't know the first thing about them other than that I've never had anybody tell me they think monks are in a great spot already.)
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
I think either I gave a bad example or should have gone into more detail.
Most professions have things they're not "supposed" to train but will eventually train, for whatever reason--maybe it seems like the best mechanical option, maybe everything else has too marginal a benefit at 3x costs, maybe they've literally trained everything else already, maybe they have some RP reason to train that, or whatever the case might be.
And when warriors or rogues train spells/lores or when wizards train weapons/CM, they see a much bigger payoff than clerics--or sorcerers, for that matter--do from training weapons/CM, despite all of these professions being at the extreme ends of square and pure. (I won't comment on monks. I don't know the first thing about them other than that I've never had anybody tell me they think monks are in a great spot already.)
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
>>There are a lot of variable mana spells. I guess it's a decent mechanic, but in hindsight it seems fairly punitive in a game where mana can be sparse and overcasting has negative effects. At any rate: a command to show the current cost of each spell (spell all, for example) would be pretty useful for those who aren't scripting.
I was thinking specifically with the utility based on enemy level spells, but that is a good point. If spell all would give the current cost for all spells, that could be useful, or any command that did so.
I was thinking specifically with the utility based on enemy level spells, but that is a good point. If spell all would give the current cost for all spells, that could be useful, or any command that did so.
I'm sorry, but clerics are really in a very good place right now, and I would hate to see most of these suggestions implemented. Clerics don't have anywhere near the deficient holes that people keep suggesting, and I'm getting the impression many may be unaware of how to properly play their characters. The changes suggested would open up far more holes in the profession arsenal than they would fix, just as the wizard changes did.
I really wish we'd stop trying to make every pure profession into a cookie cutter version of each other and trying to make them support mutant, sub-par paladin type builds. That's not what I ever wanted out of playing a pure, and I would rather the offensive power be allocated to what the core profession design is intended to focus upon, which is pure magic.
I don't feel more lore reviews are necessary. The spiritual lore review was the one lore review done correctly, and I'd like to not see that good work undone just to have change for the sake of change. Warding spells are superior to bolts when properly trained for and enjoy the benefit of a much higher offensive ceiling than bolts do at a post-cap level. The trade-off is in the road to cap, but I don't want clerics or any of the other pures to become spiritual bolters. That's not the kind of "flavor" I've ever been looking for, and clerics already have 3 self-cast bolt options, just the same as the other spiritual pures. Trying to make every profession's abilities a cookie cutter mirror image of another's is seriously lacking in creativity. I know Dev can do better with any potential improvements to other professions.
I know every profession might get a SMR spell, but I'm really not a fan. DoT is underwhelming and the opposite of what I consider exciting. I like the guaranteed nature of a properly trained cleric's offensive abilities.
Let's remember that when professions have permanent gear enhancement abilities, they aren't allowed to be as powerful. Also, gear creep is a real thing where pretty much requiring everyone to have max enchanted, ensorcelled, further enhanced gear will just result in a lot more time wasted when creatures are nerfed to account for the new permanent buffs.
I'm also not a fan of forced spell choices that offer mediocrity at best at cap. The spell splits that clerics, empaths, and sorcerers enjoy is the one I view as optimal in reaping the fruits of experience.
The Arkati choice is currently done very well and allows one to make an actual choice for RP without suffering major mechanical disadvantages, especially due to the way 317 is set up. I wouldn't want to see this changed.
I doubt skill caps will be changing for any profession, ever, given the fact we've been told it's impossible based on the way the character manager and database are set up.
Clerics have very good utility that is properly implemented by requiring the cleric to be present as part of a hunting group to provide the benefit rather than being used as a spell up bot like wizards are treated. I wouldn't want this to change either.
>I would like to see 316's successful warding count as hitting a target for kills count/etc.
This is already the case.
Tl, dr: As someone who has played a post-cap or high level pure of multiple professions, I feel that clerics are in a very good place offensively, defensively, and utility wise. I would be very unhappy with anything that significantly changes this balance for those of us who enjoy playing our profession and characters as is. I'm voicing my opinion in case this is somehow being read and so we're not told "this is what you wanted" after the fact, the way wizards were treated.
I really wish we'd stop trying to make every pure profession into a cookie cutter version of each other and trying to make them support mutant, sub-par paladin type builds. That's not what I ever wanted out of playing a pure, and I would rather the offensive power be allocated to what the core profession design is intended to focus upon, which is pure magic.
I don't feel more lore reviews are necessary. The spiritual lore review was the one lore review done correctly, and I'd like to not see that good work undone just to have change for the sake of change. Warding spells are superior to bolts when properly trained for and enjoy the benefit of a much higher offensive ceiling than bolts do at a post-cap level. The trade-off is in the road to cap, but I don't want clerics or any of the other pures to become spiritual bolters. That's not the kind of "flavor" I've ever been looking for, and clerics already have 3 self-cast bolt options, just the same as the other spiritual pures. Trying to make every profession's abilities a cookie cutter mirror image of another's is seriously lacking in creativity. I know Dev can do better with any potential improvements to other professions.
I know every profession might get a SMR spell, but I'm really not a fan. DoT is underwhelming and the opposite of what I consider exciting. I like the guaranteed nature of a properly trained cleric's offensive abilities.
Let's remember that when professions have permanent gear enhancement abilities, they aren't allowed to be as powerful. Also, gear creep is a real thing where pretty much requiring everyone to have max enchanted, ensorcelled, further enhanced gear will just result in a lot more time wasted when creatures are nerfed to account for the new permanent buffs.
I'm also not a fan of forced spell choices that offer mediocrity at best at cap. The spell splits that clerics, empaths, and sorcerers enjoy is the one I view as optimal in reaping the fruits of experience.
The Arkati choice is currently done very well and allows one to make an actual choice for RP without suffering major mechanical disadvantages, especially due to the way 317 is set up. I wouldn't want to see this changed.
I doubt skill caps will be changing for any profession, ever, given the fact we've been told it's impossible based on the way the character manager and database are set up.
Clerics have very good utility that is properly implemented by requiring the cleric to be present as part of a hunting group to provide the benefit rather than being used as a spell up bot like wizards are treated. I wouldn't want this to change either.
>I would like to see 316's successful warding count as hitting a target for kills count/etc.
This is already the case.
Tl, dr: As someone who has played a post-cap or high level pure of multiple professions, I feel that clerics are in a very good place offensively, defensively, and utility wise. I would be very unhappy with anything that significantly changes this balance for those of us who enjoy playing our profession and characters as is. I'm voicing my opinion in case this is somehow being read and so we're not told "this is what you wanted" after the fact, the way wizards were treated.
>I'm sorry, but clerics are really in a very good place right now, and I would hate to see most of these suggestions implemented. Clerics don't have anywhere near the deficient holes that people keep suggesting, and I'm getting the impression many may be unaware of how to properly play their characters.
If another game had a warrior profession that was incidentally really good using magic wands -- one of the best in the game at this, mechanically -- would you agree that the warrior was perfect and shouldn't be changed?
If another game had a warrior profession that was incidentally really good using magic wands -- one of the best in the game at this, mechanically -- would you agree that the warrior was perfect and shouldn't be changed?
Yes, because the heavy magic using warrior or weapon using cleric is called a paladin. It's a separate class, distinct from the style of play that most pure warriors or pure clerics enjoy.
If someone wants to play a paladin class, I suggest rolling up a paladin. As a cleric, it's not what I'm looking for in terms of the profession I enjoy at all. It's also why when paladins were introduced, clerics and warriors were allowed to convert to paladins for a period of time.
I'm not against clerics getting more good things, but I don't feel any of the suggestions on this list fit the bill. There's no real glaring hole that needs addressing, which is likely why the few missing slots haven't been filled. What I have no desire to see is tearing down another class to rebuild it in the mold of supporting mutant builds that are far more similar to another existing class or giving every class the same type of cookie cutter abilities.
Clerics have had quite a lot of very positive development in recent times until the wizard changes including 340, 314, 319, 335. GM Estild and the Dev team did an excellent job with the cleric updates and spiritual lore review overall. It took years and years to get them in a good place after the massive nerfs from GS3 growing pains. The last thing I'd want to see is time and effort wasted on undoing that for the sake of change when there are other areas of the game that could use far more attention, including post-cap skills in general that would be the ideal place to address many concerns about alternate skill priorities.
However, clerics are very enjoyable well post-cap. For many, the game begins at cap when you can really begin to realize your full potential. In terms of cleric specific improvements near-term, I'd like to see 317 properly account for religion lore training for increased effectiveness as this was a loophole pointed out during the wizard discussions.
If someone wants to play a paladin class, I suggest rolling up a paladin. As a cleric, it's not what I'm looking for in terms of the profession I enjoy at all. It's also why when paladins were introduced, clerics and warriors were allowed to convert to paladins for a period of time.
I'm not against clerics getting more good things, but I don't feel any of the suggestions on this list fit the bill. There's no real glaring hole that needs addressing, which is likely why the few missing slots haven't been filled. What I have no desire to see is tearing down another class to rebuild it in the mold of supporting mutant builds that are far more similar to another existing class or giving every class the same type of cookie cutter abilities.
Clerics have had quite a lot of very positive development in recent times until the wizard changes including 340, 314, 319, 335. GM Estild and the Dev team did an excellent job with the cleric updates and spiritual lore review overall. It took years and years to get them in a good place after the massive nerfs from GS3 growing pains. The last thing I'd want to see is time and effort wasted on undoing that for the sake of change when there are other areas of the game that could use far more attention, including post-cap skills in general that would be the ideal place to address many concerns about alternate skill priorities.
However, clerics are very enjoyable well post-cap. For many, the game begins at cap when you can really begin to realize your full potential. In terms of cleric specific improvements near-term, I'd like to see 317 properly account for religion lore training for increased effectiveness as this was a loophole pointed out during the wizard discussions.
>I feel that clerics are in a very good place offensively, defensively, and utility wise. I would be very unhappy with anything that significantly changes this balance
>What I have no desire to see is tearing down another class to rebuild it
Other than the deity-aligned 306 suggestion here and the deity-specific 304 flares suggestion on the PC crosspost, I don't see any suggestions that would tear down or change anything... only adding new things or updating spells to do the same things more effectively (e.g. 202 stackable on others or 315 uncursing multiple items).
I do agree with this:
>there are other areas of the game that could use far more attention, including post-cap skills in general that would be the ideal place to address many concerns about alternate skill priorities.
I just wanted to discuss lower-hanging fruit like filling the 320 slot since I see post-cap skills as a dev goal for the far future. (I do hope I'm wrong and they've secretly been plugging away at them for two years or something, though, since I'd personally want those way more than anything else.)
>What I have no desire to see is tearing down another class to rebuild it
Other than the deity-aligned 306 suggestion here and the deity-specific 304 flares suggestion on the PC crosspost, I don't see any suggestions that would tear down or change anything... only adding new things or updating spells to do the same things more effectively (e.g. 202 stackable on others or 315 uncursing multiple items).
I do agree with this:
>there are other areas of the game that could use far more attention, including post-cap skills in general that would be the ideal place to address many concerns about alternate skill priorities.
I just wanted to discuss lower-hanging fruit like filling the 320 slot since I see post-cap skills as a dev goal for the far future. (I do hope I'm wrong and they've secretly been plugging away at them for two years or something, though, since I'd personally want those way more than anything else.)
>Other than the deity-aligned 306 suggestion here and the deity-specific 304 flares suggestion on the PC crosspost
Those are the very things I'd consider major nerfs. What I meant by liking the way the Arkati choice was implemented was the fact that unlike elemental attunement, it doesn't affect every spell that a cleric has mechanically so it allows for a pure RP choice. 317 was specifically created with an initial plasma cycle so that it would work regardless of deity flares. Similarly, I would hate to see 306 or 304 flares become deity-based instead of the current acid degeneration or holy water flares, rendering them useless for many creatures depending on one's deity.
>updating spells to do the same things more effectively (e.g. 202 stackable on others)
It's my impression that spells such as 103 and 202 are intentionally not stackable on others to promote interaction and force other characters to seek out their friendly neighborhood spiritualist every now and then. I much prefer this setup that protects spiritualists from being used as spell-up bots vs. the way wizard spells are set up and therefore creatures are balanced to almost require the use of outside wizard spells. If spells are more readily and permanently available, creatures WILL be nerfed to compensate. This is the very trend that resetting the clock from GS3 to GS4 attempted to eliminate, in making outside spells truly bonus instead of requiring one to stack 4 hours of every spell in the book just to hunt. We're dangerously starting to regress back to the same problems that GS3 had before with these proposed ideas.
>I just wanted to discuss lower-hanging fruit like filling the 320 slot since I see post-cap skills as a dev goal for the far future
I, too, would like to see a 320 spell one day, but we've been told that spell design is not “low-hanging fruit” by any stretch of the imagination. Also, we've been told that given what we received with 350, 319, 340, 325 with multiple tiers/facets of benefit, etc., those higher level spells have already used up much of the cleric power allocation. I wouldn't want to see a poorly designed spell tossed in just for the sake of having a full circle, since it could likely be years before it's changed. As such, I wouldn't want any bolt-type spell that is categorically a band-aid. The trend has also been to move wizards away from warding spells, and as such, I wouldn't expect the spiritual pures to receive any more than the 3 native bolt options per profession that they have as a secondary form of magical attack.
Tl, dr: I don't feel like clerics are missing anything significant in our arsenal, and I feel like a lot of Dev time and effort has been put into giving us excellent and well thought out Cleric circle updates in recent years. I wouldn't want that undone just for the sake of having change, especially not the type of cookie cutter and backwards changes proposed here.
Those are the very things I'd consider major nerfs. What I meant by liking the way the Arkati choice was implemented was the fact that unlike elemental attunement, it doesn't affect every spell that a cleric has mechanically so it allows for a pure RP choice. 317 was specifically created with an initial plasma cycle so that it would work regardless of deity flares. Similarly, I would hate to see 306 or 304 flares become deity-based instead of the current acid degeneration or holy water flares, rendering them useless for many creatures depending on one's deity.
>updating spells to do the same things more effectively (e.g. 202 stackable on others)
It's my impression that spells such as 103 and 202 are intentionally not stackable on others to promote interaction and force other characters to seek out their friendly neighborhood spiritualist every now and then. I much prefer this setup that protects spiritualists from being used as spell-up bots vs. the way wizard spells are set up and therefore creatures are balanced to almost require the use of outside wizard spells. If spells are more readily and permanently available, creatures WILL be nerfed to compensate. This is the very trend that resetting the clock from GS3 to GS4 attempted to eliminate, in making outside spells truly bonus instead of requiring one to stack 4 hours of every spell in the book just to hunt. We're dangerously starting to regress back to the same problems that GS3 had before with these proposed ideas.
>I just wanted to discuss lower-hanging fruit like filling the 320 slot since I see post-cap skills as a dev goal for the far future
I, too, would like to see a 320 spell one day, but we've been told that spell design is not “low-hanging fruit” by any stretch of the imagination. Also, we've been told that given what we received with 350, 319, 340, 325 with multiple tiers/facets of benefit, etc., those higher level spells have already used up much of the cleric power allocation. I wouldn't want to see a poorly designed spell tossed in just for the sake of having a full circle, since it could likely be years before it's changed. As such, I wouldn't want any bolt-type spell that is categorically a band-aid. The trend has also been to move wizards away from warding spells, and as such, I wouldn't expect the spiritual pures to receive any more than the 3 native bolt options per profession that they have as a secondary form of magical attack.
Tl, dr: I don't feel like clerics are missing anything significant in our arsenal, and I feel like a lot of Dev time and effort has been put into giving us excellent and well thought out Cleric circle updates in recent years. I wouldn't want that undone just for the sake of having change, especially not the type of cookie cutter and backwards changes proposed here.
>What I have no desire to see is tearing down another class to rebuild it in the mold of supporting mutant builds that are far more similar to another existing class or giving every class the same type of cookie cutter abilities.
I agree with part of this, but giving players options allows more creative freedom in the design and ongoing training of their character, and it allows them to respec in different ways later on -- not just by changing to a different weapon type or converting religion. I agree there's no glass ceiling for clerics if they are trained "correctly." However, when paladins were created, clerics had a couple supported builds removed to the paladin. It'd be like moving war-mages and war-paths off to their own professions. It's exciting at first, but then people realize they are even more constrained than they were before. I'd use the ranger as a model for what kind of options a profession should have. Though they haven't had any new stuff for awhile, people don't have many complaints about them.
I agree with part of this, but giving players options allows more creative freedom in the design and ongoing training of their character, and it allows them to respec in different ways later on -- not just by changing to a different weapon type or converting religion. I agree there's no glass ceiling for clerics if they are trained "correctly." However, when paladins were created, clerics had a couple supported builds removed to the paladin. It'd be like moving war-mages and war-paths off to their own professions. It's exciting at first, but then people realize they are even more constrained than they were before. I'd use the ranger as a model for what kind of options a profession should have. Though they haven't had any new stuff for awhile, people don't have many complaints about them.
We must be reading different folders. People complain about rangers all the time, and they are the weakest of all the semis all around. In any case, trying to turn a pure class into having the same abilities of a semi class just isn't going to result in anything but disappointment. Paladins and rangers have entirely separate advantages and disadvantages. I'd say that splintering off the weapon using cleric to the paladin profession allowed for both to become much more powerful than they would have otherwise been if it had remained one all encompassing hybrid. Clerics have some exceptional magical offensive abilities, and paladins have the same for weapons.
A lot of what it sounds like people want for options beyond cap tends to veer into the realm of multi-classing or alternative skill priorities that would be something I'd want post-cap skills to address for the game as a whole, not just every profession individually.
A lot of what it sounds like people want for options beyond cap tends to veer into the realm of multi-classing or alternative skill priorities that would be something I'd want post-cap skills to address for the game as a whole, not just every profession individually.
