Clerics aren't meant to primarily bolt, so I wouldn't want this for 320. Clerics have a AOE CS spell already. I feel we have plenty of bolts with 306, 118, and 111, which is the same number of bolts that sorcerers and empaths have.

Perhaps instead of a spell slot that is a bolt, maybe a VERSION of a spell that can be bolted, similiar to web

<and 111 is just meh.>

Either you're using it against things that are resistant to fire or you're not training at all for it. Even without any training in MA or Summoning it's perfect for use against trolls and most undead, with even a minimal investment in Summoning lore it's a great general use spell for anything that isn't resistant/immune to fire and devastating when used on anything with a weakness to fire.

<and an AOE bolt would broaden our options for groups.>

That's what any ball spell is.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

<Why use 111 against undead when 306 is so much better?>

No splash damage with 306. Any time there's more then one critter in the room, there's a good chance of at least hitting (and often stunning) multiple critters even without MA/Summmoning. With my empath's heavy focus on Summoning and a single rank in MA, it's at least as effective at crowd control as any of my sorcerer's spells other then 410/435.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>>I've never understood why anyone with access to one of the ball spells would not get at least ten (10) ranks of the relevant Lore (== +4 possible targets), and <as much MOC as they can tolerate>; all of my own spellcasters have either 5 ranks of MOC (particularly if they're weapon-swingers, for that first ability to mstrike and hit a second creature) or more likely, 10 ranks (to offset that first opponent of FvF).

I'd just like to see clerics with a unique ball spell, like sorcs. Is that too much for a boy to ask?!

bolt version of 325 that is cone of elements for 306. We can call it Holy Mother of All Bolts, or Holy MOAB for short.

>>bolt version of 325 that is cone of elements for 306. We can call it Holy Mother of All Bolts, or Holy MOAB for short.

But then Wizard would want a Fiery Father of all bolts, or Fiery FOAB.

>>I'm not interested in a mechanical merging of the classes or copying bolts/ball spells that other professions have. We already have means to make our existing bolt/ball spells more powerful.

Everything is a copy of something in this game. It would have different seeds, mechanics, and messaging. We have redundant spells and/or empty spell slots. Instead of ANOTHER warding spell, how about a bolt/ball spell with some divine flavor to it?

>How about some weirdo combo of warding/bolt like the one Empath spell? Or what about a cleric ball spell that, if the targets were hit, had to deal with a maneuver.

This could be quite interesting.

>>We can call it Holy Mother of All Bolts, or Holy MOAB for short.

I'm training my monkeys to learn Cripple MOAB! I'll bring down your bloons!

Clerics can single-train in weapons, so at 38th level the (base) bonuses from Bravery [+15] and Heroism [+25] will make them exactly as effective as a double-train profession. (This is what Krakii was based on.) They, now that CM exists to add to weapon AS, fall behind in the CM boost comparison at the rate of .5AS/level.

They can, now, double-train in Aimed Spells, so they can be as-good as other spell-slinging professions. (Each with varying bonuses, like Elemental Focus vs. Bravery+Heroism.)

And CS warding is CS warding. :)

.

But yeah, for a long while there was "CS spells, now with More CS spells! And have some extra bonus CS spells!" for our menu choices of "what to do to critters."

Having a variety of options--I'm lookin' at you, "whole-room Web", for example--is better.

Yeah, I imagine some of the difficulty is that Clerics using "holy energy" is kinda a... one dimensional energy source? It's difficult to say that holy energy is made up of multiple aspects, etc. (similar to Elemental). Even Sorcerer power comes from two sources (death and demons) for the variety you're talking about, and Empaths can focus on either the Spiritual or Mental stuff.


With infinite time and manpower, I'd suggest Shadow Clerics or something, similar to Shadow Priests from lesser known MMO's, where the entire class shifts based on your choice to follow the dark pantheon. Warding spells would degenerate or rot over time, rather than instantly killing, and you'd probably shift hunting strategy (hunt multiple creatures and rely on an offensive version of Soul Ward to keep you safe while they die). BUT that would require significant manpower.

From Krakii:
>>But yeah, spells that let us mix up our capabilities are preferred. What, we really need another CS-based spell? <dismiss> Bolt AS. Maneuver. Hell, even weapon AS (I remember swinging a weapon with Krakii). One-trick ponies are not terribly fun.

I've been hunting with my capped ranger friend lately and even when he doesn't use his bow and hunts with spells only, I really envy the variety he has with Spike Thorn.



From Archsenex:
>>Just to check (I don't main cleric, but have a cleric alt who is presently bolting) Is it true that Clerics CAN currently Ward, Bolt, or Swing, with reasonable acumen once you pass the "starter" levels (level 20)?

Opinions vary on that... I say they can, but other clerics tell me I was crazy to keep swinging after 55 or so. And I might concede that one! :P

But I'm less convinced by other clerics saying the only time they thought bolting was worthwhile was against dogmatists... Holy Bolt is very good against corporeal undead for every level range they're in, and I'm honestly not sure it's viable for a cleric to go hunt Ilvari pixies or treekin druids without Fire Spirit to destroy their bark layers. Those are level 74 and 83, so players who do bounties will be dealing with those two creatures for a long time.

I envision the clerical profession as being a master of the spiritual realm and not a spiritual flavored bolter. This is consistent with what the Dev team has said about clerics, empaths, and sorcerers primarily being intended to use warding spells and wizards meant to primarily use bolts. I feel that clerics have sufficient bolting options, which are equivalent to those of sorcerers and empaths.

At cap, I primarily use CS spells. They are far more powerful than bolts. We have bolting options, but I would not want further slots devoted to a bolt-only spell.

The spells listed are not considered redundant by many capped clerics. I would have a huge problem with those specific spells being removed. I disagree with professions being changed in favor of mutant builds and removing core tools that those who use warding spells use.

A hybrid warding/maneuver spell could be very interesting. I don't want to just be a spiritual copy of a wizard though.

Just as a general thought, considering the really cool messaging and ideas with Blind, what if adequate lore and/or spell ranks and/or something also would make it so that while blinded, the targets would face additional damage attempts from dealing with the overwhelming power? Right now, I always found Censure to be preferable to Blind, but it would be cool if it had some other thing to it.

Also it would be really neat if there was other Blind messaging against players when used by, for instance, the Grimswarm clerics.

_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.

Agreed. That's why I bought the 1707 staff at the 2016 auction. Sorcs have a awesome plasma ball spell, why can't we have a kickass ball spell to?

>>I would say any changes or additions to cleric bolt spells should come in the form of changes to 306 rather than a new spell. Increase damage against living (or convert it to match deity conversion like 302), add a ball effect, tweak lore benefits, something.


One of the things that might hold 306 back is just that 6th level spells aren't really supposed to be great... Maybe if 306 and 311 swapped places, since we've been talking about 311 too anyway, Blind would make more sense for its mana cost and Holy Bolt could get a huge buff?

Wouldn't want to cut out low-level bolting clerics, though, that's the tricky part... maybe make it still cost 6 mana against the undead but 11 mana against the living? Like a reverse 302, or like bolt Web vs. CS web with different mana costs.

I wouldn't want 311 changed from its slot or effectiveness, especially in favor of a bolt spell.

I imagine Dev's data on what spells are actually used will win, along with their vision of having clerics, empaths, and sorcerers be primarily CS spell users. Plenty of clerics use these tools, so I would very strongly disagree with changing these spells or slots.

Popularity is irrelevant as they have distinctly separate functions, but I am certain all of these spells are used.

For my near-cap purposes (92), as a non-bolter, it's really 316 that makes 311 less useful to me, but 311 may have its uses earlier on, and on niche enemies (eg Illoke, with the need to bring them down before killing them to avoid being squished - though having a fire-crit deity made me just generally want to skip that area anyway). It's just rare to have a situation where it makes sense to disable with 311 when 317 is going to stun more often than not, and 2 or more enemies makes 316 a no-brainer.

That said, I love everything about 311's non-mechanical fluff and would hate to lose it for that.

My selfish desire is for another general attack buff, with a duration rather than a number of uses. Anything to boost bolting would be great to maybe lure me into putting spell aim on my post-cap goals, and I'd also like a boost to punching and kicking stuff to death.

As for 309, it's one of those weird ones. If the devs come up with an idea for a level 15 cleric spell (say, a bolt or ball spell, since that's one thing we lack options for), make removing curses a 15-rank benefit to 309 (like how resurrection works now) and free up the slot for something new.

With all that said, I think clerics are in a very good place right now. Our staple spells are great at what they do. I just feel like there's a lack in attack variety. Anecdotally evidenced by things like, say, as a smite-aligned fire-crit cleric I had no damaging spells at all I could use in the Bowels that don't either put me in hard prep-time RT to be effective (begging for death) or risk setting off the fart gas (also begging for death). But then, hating one of the most hateable hunting grounds in the game isn't evidence that a class needs changes - when the world wasn't exploding around me I was very effective in there.

So yeah, no complaints from me about the direction of clerics, just selfish desire for more variety in attack spells and more spell-based buffs to swinging/UAC.


PS: Since people are asking, the combat spells I find myself using are 316, 335, 217 (aka the bandit rotation), 317, 302, 301, 230 and 240.
Hardly ever use 311, but have pulled it out a couple times in the Sanctum. 110 never - with the much lower CS vs Cleric circle and mana cost high enough to not want to miss it more than once, I find it a better plan to just channel 317 and hope for knockdowns. 118 never, but I'd probably use it if I was bolting.