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I never said it was freakishly overpowered, or even slightly overpowered, I was merely stating that it isn't the lemon spell Frogspawn was making it to be
<<If you disregard all the spells that make you invincible, do other stuff to the target, add evasion or stats, and protect from EVERY spell, then yes, ES is the best spell in the game.>>
The only spells I disregarded where the ones that make it so nothing can hit you. I didn't disregard spells like SW. I said we were discussing spell defence in response to you saying that it helps against mundane weapons. Nor did I disregard AC. I said it offers no protection against spells that don't have some targeted magic component, and hence I'd rather fight someone with just AC on than someone with just ES on.
<<Then you found someone who isn't using AC right.>>
Perhaps.
<<All of your tests are either missing one side of the equation or performed on, or by, someone who doesn't know what they're doing.>>
I didn't claim they were tests. They were occurances in which I noticed certain things. You have also provided no tests to show that ES is not as good as I claim it is. In addition, I have not given any names, so there is no way for you to know if someone does or does not know what they are doing, unless you are able to provide specific examples to the contrary.
<<Half your data (see long paragraph with little punctuation, I can go through sentence by sentence and point out everything if you wish) is wrong.>>
I wish it.
<<only shear beats it in the category of covering most spells>>
I think this is probably not true either. Shear is really only good under two circumstances. You totally outclass the person, so they can not put enough mana into the spell to get past the shear, in which case you most likely don't need it. Or they don't know you have a shear, and so they don't prep high enough. The fact is, there's certain spells that will get past any shear given enough mana. Burn at 30 will get past any shear. I haven't even noticed a reduction in power when I burn through shears.
<<Someone mentioned that GMs ignore PvP examples, they also ignore Guild vs Guild arguements like this one. Nothing's going to change, so there's no point in continuing this thread. I have ES, don't use it.>>
This isn't guild versus guild. It's a spell comparsion. If it was guild versus guild I wouldn't compare the spell with spells from the same guild. To be honest, I don't really care if they change it or not. Someone said ES was not a very strong protective spell. All my experience with the spell is the completely opposite. I felt like disgreeing publically. I think it is a mistake to ignore PvP examples, as I'm sure some GMs do. You can disregard them if they don't provide some useful information, but to totally ignore them is silly. Especially in this case, because there are very few creature that actually cast spells.
For the person that was intersted in the MB vs. ES test, I've been out since my last post, and now instant messager is giving me problems, so I can't contact people for a test. I'll try tomorrow.
The only spells I disregarded where the ones that make it so nothing can hit you. I didn't disregard spells like SW. I said we were discussing spell defence in response to you saying that it helps against mundane weapons. Nor did I disregard AC. I said it offers no protection against spells that don't have some targeted magic component, and hence I'd rather fight someone with just AC on than someone with just ES on.
<<Then you found someone who isn't using AC right.>>
Perhaps.
<<All of your tests are either missing one side of the equation or performed on, or by, someone who doesn't know what they're doing.>>
I didn't claim they were tests. They were occurances in which I noticed certain things. You have also provided no tests to show that ES is not as good as I claim it is. In addition, I have not given any names, so there is no way for you to know if someone does or does not know what they are doing, unless you are able to provide specific examples to the contrary.
<<Half your data (see long paragraph with little punctuation, I can go through sentence by sentence and point out everything if you wish) is wrong.>>
I wish it.
<<only shear beats it in the category of covering most spells>>
I think this is probably not true either. Shear is really only good under two circumstances. You totally outclass the person, so they can not put enough mana into the spell to get past the shear, in which case you most likely don't need it. Or they don't know you have a shear, and so they don't prep high enough. The fact is, there's certain spells that will get past any shear given enough mana. Burn at 30 will get past any shear. I haven't even noticed a reduction in power when I burn through shears.
<<Someone mentioned that GMs ignore PvP examples, they also ignore Guild vs Guild arguements like this one. Nothing's going to change, so there's no point in continuing this thread. I have ES, don't use it.>>
This isn't guild versus guild. It's a spell comparsion. If it was guild versus guild I wouldn't compare the spell with spells from the same guild. To be honest, I don't really care if they change it or not. Someone said ES was not a very strong protective spell. All my experience with the spell is the completely opposite. I felt like disgreeing publically. I think it is a mistake to ignore PvP examples, as I'm sure some GMs do. You can disregard them if they don't provide some useful information, but to totally ignore them is silly. Especially in this case, because there are very few creature that actually cast spells.
For the person that was intersted in the MB vs. ES test, I've been out since my last post, and now instant messager is giving me problems, so I can't contact people for a test. I'll try tomorrow.
>>I never said it was freakishly overpowered, or even slightly overpowered, I was merely stating that it isn't the lemon spell Frogspawn was making it to be
I never claimed it was a lemon, I claimed it wasn't more powerful that a lot of the other barrier spells. It's a nice spell, not nice enough for me to worry about keeping it up (especially as there are worthwile reasons to not have an ES up), but it certainly does well enough. The only lemon barrier spell I've seen so far is VoI.
>>I didn't claim they were tests. They were occurances in which I noticed certain things. You have also provided no tests to show that ES is not as good as I claim it is. In addition, I have not given any names, so there is no way for you to know if someone does or does not know what they are doing, unless you are able to provide specific examples to the contrary.
It's much easier for me to just assume I know more about my spells than you do. Which, as you've probably figured out by now, isn't that far-fetched a proposition.
Oh wait, I just realized I can't kill Veldehar with Fist of Stone when he has ES up (he may have been dancing dragon, I didn't ask him), and I have 350 TM and 40 discipline.
I was wrong all this time. Rigby, please downtweak immediately; and GM me some naphtha while you're at it.
-Frogspawn
I never claimed it was a lemon, I claimed it wasn't more powerful that a lot of the other barrier spells. It's a nice spell, not nice enough for me to worry about keeping it up (especially as there are worthwile reasons to not have an ES up), but it certainly does well enough. The only lemon barrier spell I've seen so far is VoI.
>>I didn't claim they were tests. They were occurances in which I noticed certain things. You have also provided no tests to show that ES is not as good as I claim it is. In addition, I have not given any names, so there is no way for you to know if someone does or does not know what they are doing, unless you are able to provide specific examples to the contrary.
It's much easier for me to just assume I know more about my spells than you do. Which, as you've probably figured out by now, isn't that far-fetched a proposition.
Oh wait, I just realized I can't kill Veldehar with Fist of Stone when he has ES up (he may have been dancing dragon, I didn't ask him), and I have 350 TM and 40 discipline.
I was wrong all this time. Rigby, please downtweak immediately; and GM me some naphtha while you're at it.
-Frogspawn
>1. It's much easier for me to just assume I know more about my spells than you do. Which, as you've probably figured out by now, isn't that far-fetched a proposition.
>2. Oh wait, I just realized I can't kill Veldehar with Fist of Stone when he has ES up (he may have been dancing dragon, I didn't ask him), and I have 350 TM and 40 discipline.
1. In the interest of full disclosure, Accountholder Joncat is a high level WM in prime, not bought, not scripted. 2. Both his TF mm and his prime WM have more TM than that or right around that.
Stop assuming what youre assuming, disagree with him as the equal or better that he is and construct your arguments accordingly, and you may actually get some respect and a decent discussion out of it. He left the cemetery about the time you migrated into it so perhaps you never got to duel it out with him. I'm sure he's willing to conceed that he hasnt played his WM as much in the past 6 months as you have played yours, but his tests and knowledge are not valueless simply because his opinion differs from yours.
My own tests are limited, but I did have a 2nd level WM with 45 PM who could cast a stacked up ES upon characters which let them completely dodge HB cast with 200 PM, 40 ref, 35 agil and 20 charisma... 26 int, from their base 100 ranks of evasion, and proportional ref, agil, etc. She could also crack a max shear with a 5 mana ES cast.
Piex
>2. Oh wait, I just realized I can't kill Veldehar with Fist of Stone when he has ES up (he may have been dancing dragon, I didn't ask him), and I have 350 TM and 40 discipline.
1. In the interest of full disclosure, Accountholder Joncat is a high level WM in prime, not bought, not scripted. 2. Both his TF mm and his prime WM have more TM than that or right around that.
Stop assuming what youre assuming, disagree with him as the equal or better that he is and construct your arguments accordingly, and you may actually get some respect and a decent discussion out of it. He left the cemetery about the time you migrated into it so perhaps you never got to duel it out with him. I'm sure he's willing to conceed that he hasnt played his WM as much in the past 6 months as you have played yours, but his tests and knowledge are not valueless simply because his opinion differs from yours.
My own tests are limited, but I did have a 2nd level WM with 45 PM who could cast a stacked up ES upon characters which let them completely dodge HB cast with 200 PM, 40 ref, 35 agil and 20 charisma... 26 int, from their base 100 ranks of evasion, and proportional ref, agil, etc. She could also crack a max shear with a 5 mana ES cast.
Piex
> My own tests are limited, but I did have a 2nd level WM with 45 PM who could cast a stacked up ES upon characters which let them completely dodge HB cast with 200 PM, 40 ref, 35 agil and 20 charisma... 26 int, from their base 100 ranks of evasion, and proportional ref, agil, etc.
Again, my question would be "How did the spell fare without ES?". I see a lot of posts saying "Someone avoided a spell at <insert skills/stats/circle> with ES on them", but that proves absolutely nothing about ES itself unless you also do control tests to establish what happens under the exact same conditions without ES.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
Again, my question would be "How did the spell fare without ES?". I see a lot of posts saying "Someone avoided a spell at <insert skills/stats/circle> with ES on them", but that proves absolutely nothing about ES itself unless you also do control tests to establish what happens under the exact same conditions without ES.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
>Again, my question would be "How did the spell fare without ES?". I see a lot of posts saying "Someone avoided a spell at <insert skills/stats/circle> with ES on them", but that proves absolutely nothing about ES itself unless you also do control tests to establish what happens under the exact same conditions without ES.
Webbed, serious poison but not critical.
Piex
Webbed, serious poison but not critical.
Piex
>I'm sure he's willing to conceed that he hasnt played his WM as much in the past 6 months as you have played yours, but his tests and knowledge are not valueless simply because his opinion differs from yours.
Valueless or not he is wrong.
>My own tests are limited, but I did have a 2nd level WM with 45 PM who could cast a stacked up ES upon characters which let them completely dodge HB
It has been noted before that ES does a very good job against HB test it with a diffrent spell some things protect better against diffrent things.
>She could also crack a max shear with a 5 mana ES cast.
If you want to bring up es cracking shear I suggest you retest that concidering the bugs have been fixed.
Furthermore I would be willing to bet that the reason ES protects so very well against MB is that MB is an electric attack. You can cut and paste all you want about bla bla mental attack blah blah but the simple fact is the brain functions via electricity the best way to short it out would be a direct electrical current. As well MB gives twitching the single element that causes twitching is... TADA electricity.
Spells do diffrent things ES does what ES does its not overpowered in any light. It doesnt stun those who cast at you, it doesnt reduce every spell in the game, it doesnt outright negate all WvW spells and It doesnt allow you to walk around completely invulnerable to all but area affect attacks.
Valueless or not he is wrong.
>My own tests are limited, but I did have a 2nd level WM with 45 PM who could cast a stacked up ES upon characters which let them completely dodge HB
It has been noted before that ES does a very good job against HB test it with a diffrent spell some things protect better against diffrent things.
>She could also crack a max shear with a 5 mana ES cast.
If you want to bring up es cracking shear I suggest you retest that concidering the bugs have been fixed.
Furthermore I would be willing to bet that the reason ES protects so very well against MB is that MB is an electric attack. You can cut and paste all you want about bla bla mental attack blah blah but the simple fact is the brain functions via electricity the best way to short it out would be a direct electrical current. As well MB gives twitching the single element that causes twitching is... TADA electricity.
Spells do diffrent things ES does what ES does its not overpowered in any light. It doesnt stun those who cast at you, it doesnt reduce every spell in the game, it doesnt outright negate all WvW spells and It doesnt allow you to walk around completely invulnerable to all but area affect attacks.
>It has been noted before that ES does a very good job against HB test it with a diffrent spell some things protect better against diffrent things.
So because it does a "good job" against HB then it should allow a 2nd circle war mage to dodge a HB casted by someone with far superior stats/skills? This example proves how overpowered ES is, at least in this one aspect. Which is the exact example I brought up and wanted addressed when I started the thread.
Fact is, no matter what definition you try to make for ES, the "official" definition of this spell is that it protects from elemental attacks. Clearly, it does more than that.
And no this isn't guild vs. guild or PvP because it also deals with critters who have ES. A lot of people have made some valid arguments and I would love to see some sort of GM response to this.
So because it does a "good job" against HB then it should allow a 2nd circle war mage to dodge a HB casted by someone with far superior stats/skills? This example proves how overpowered ES is, at least in this one aspect. Which is the exact example I brought up and wanted addressed when I started the thread.
Fact is, no matter what definition you try to make for ES, the "official" definition of this spell is that it protects from elemental attacks. Clearly, it does more than that.
And no this isn't guild vs. guild or PvP because it also deals with critters who have ES. A lot of people have made some valid arguments and I would love to see some sort of GM response to this.
<<A lot of people have made some valid arguments and I would love to see some sort of GM response to this. >>
A response was given in the matter of magic folder a month ago. ES does not protect against elemental spells, that description is now invalid, and will be updated when the propper people get enough time. ES protects against all magic attacks because they all use mana; now that is a nice big preview of what you'll read if you bother to look in the folder.
Have a nice day.
-P
A response was given in the matter of magic folder a month ago. ES does not protect against elemental spells, that description is now invalid, and will be updated when the propper people get enough time. ES protects against all magic attacks because they all use mana; now that is a nice big preview of what you'll read if you bother to look in the folder.
Have a nice day.
-P
<<Furthermore I would be willing to bet that the reason ES protects so very well against MB is that MB is an electric attack. You can cut and paste all you want about bla bla mental attack blah blah but the simple fact is the brain functions via electricity the best way to short it out would be a direct electrical current. As well MB gives twitching the single element that causes twitching is... TADA electricity.>>
i dunt care bout ES really, but MB is NOT an electrical attack. It's raw mana flooding into your brain.
i dunt care bout ES really, but MB is NOT an electrical attack. It's raw mana flooding into your brain.
<<i dunt care bout ES really, but MB is NOT an electrical attack. It's raw mana flooding into your brain.>>
Actualy, no... it isnt.
The following was a snippet from a post made by Valdrik in the General magic feedback folder (my bad for suggesting the answers to this silly debate could be found in the wrong folder <duck>).
<<The messaging for Mental Blast that you see when asking a guild leader about it, or reading your spellbooks is incorrect, and didn't get all the way updated for Magic 2.1. The specific messaging is, "The Mental Blast spell sends a jolt of mana directly into the target's brain, often incapacitating the victim and possibly causing them to drop whatever they're holding.">>
<<The part where it says "sends a jolt of mana" is wonky. Mana is something that permeates Elanthia and Elanthians alike 24/7 to varying degrees. There is currently no mana setting that will do you bodily harm, with exception to Blinding -- which you only get if you perceive it. To say that Mental Blast can send a spike of mana into your brain at levels high enough to do you harm, implies that you can basically create mana, or draw it from much farther distances than your skills allow. This, obviously, is not the case. (Harm defined as affecting you in an adverse manner, not necessarily physical injury.)>>
Anyhow, if any of you are still interested in finding an answer to a question about barrier spells (specificly ES), wander over there and stop polluting this folder with junk.
Thanks.
-P
Actualy, no... it isnt.
The following was a snippet from a post made by Valdrik in the General magic feedback folder (my bad for suggesting the answers to this silly debate could be found in the wrong folder <duck>).
<<The messaging for Mental Blast that you see when asking a guild leader about it, or reading your spellbooks is incorrect, and didn't get all the way updated for Magic 2.1. The specific messaging is, "The Mental Blast spell sends a jolt of mana directly into the target's brain, often incapacitating the victim and possibly causing them to drop whatever they're holding.">>
<<The part where it says "sends a jolt of mana" is wonky. Mana is something that permeates Elanthia and Elanthians alike 24/7 to varying degrees. There is currently no mana setting that will do you bodily harm, with exception to Blinding -- which you only get if you perceive it. To say that Mental Blast can send a spike of mana into your brain at levels high enough to do you harm, implies that you can basically create mana, or draw it from much farther distances than your skills allow. This, obviously, is not the case. (Harm defined as affecting you in an adverse manner, not necessarily physical injury.)>>
Anyhow, if any of you are still interested in finding an answer to a question about barrier spells (specificly ES), wander over there and stop polluting this folder with junk.
Thanks.
-P
>A response was given in the matter of magic folder a month ago.
Where? If you're refering to the thread in the General Magic Feedback Category there was no definitive response.
"I wont comment on the ES vs MB debate for now, however, after reading this post perhaps you'll see your side of that debate a bit more clearly. I'll work at getting the messaging changed as quickly as possible, given the priority of a small messaging fix. GM Valdrik"
He discusses the manipulation of mana and the errors in the messaging of the MB spell. I see no where that it states, "ES protects against all magic attacks."
>ES does not protect against elemental spells, that description is now invalid, and will be updated when the propper people get enough time. ES protects against all magic attacks because they all use mana; now that is a nice big preview of what you'll read if you bother to look in the folder.
Is this your definition or a GM's? I read every GM post in that folder all the way back till October and couldn't find anything. If you read this somewhere would you mind posting the message # and what folder it's in. Thanks.
Where? If you're refering to the thread in the General Magic Feedback Category there was no definitive response.
"I wont comment on the ES vs MB debate for now, however, after reading this post perhaps you'll see your side of that debate a bit more clearly. I'll work at getting the messaging changed as quickly as possible, given the priority of a small messaging fix. GM Valdrik"
He discusses the manipulation of mana and the errors in the messaging of the MB spell. I see no where that it states, "ES protects against all magic attacks."
>ES does not protect against elemental spells, that description is now invalid, and will be updated when the propper people get enough time. ES protects against all magic attacks because they all use mana; now that is a nice big preview of what you'll read if you bother to look in the folder.
Is this your definition or a GM's? I read every GM post in that folder all the way back till October and couldn't find anything. If you read this somewhere would you mind posting the message # and what folder it's in. Thanks.
"All information on the Blackfire Sorcery spellbook has been censored by order of the Guild of Warrior Mages."
I'm pretty sure this wasn't here a few days ago when I copied and pasted the ES descrip from the web site. It appears that all of the spell lists have been removed. Perhaps all those erroneous definitions will be fixed soon.
I'm pretty sure this wasn't here a few days ago when I copied and pasted the ES descrip from the web site. It appears that all of the spell lists have been removed. Perhaps all those erroneous definitions will be fixed soon.
>>Actualy, no... it isnt.
>>The following was a snippet from a post made by Valdrik in the General magic feedback folder (my bad for suggesting the answers to this silly debate could be found in the wrong folder <duck>).
alright to clarify this, its not raw mana but raw lunar energy being forced into your system.
It is not electrical dispite what alot of warmies think just because it causes twitching and gives stuns. Crystal Spike does electrical damage, supposed to be lunar energy but since their isn't anything called lunar damage it does Electrical damage. It doesn't cause twitching and if it does they die way before its even visible, no extended stuns. These are not properties of electrical damage in the system they are properties added to electrical spells afterwards.
MB also does not do any damage per se, it incurrs the status of "stunned" with the side affect of causing twitches but because it actually doesn't do any damage the twitching isn't increased unless you get a higher level stun :(. This is also the reason why MB can stun things that are considered "unstunnable" and eletrical attacks don't.
>>The following was a snippet from a post made by Valdrik in the General magic feedback folder (my bad for suggesting the answers to this silly debate could be found in the wrong folder <duck>).
alright to clarify this, its not raw mana but raw lunar energy being forced into your system.
It is not electrical dispite what alot of warmies think just because it causes twitching and gives stuns. Crystal Spike does electrical damage, supposed to be lunar energy but since their isn't anything called lunar damage it does Electrical damage. It doesn't cause twitching and if it does they die way before its even visible, no extended stuns. These are not properties of electrical damage in the system they are properties added to electrical spells afterwards.
MB also does not do any damage per se, it incurrs the status of "stunned" with the side affect of causing twitches but because it actually doesn't do any damage the twitching isn't increased unless you get a higher level stun :(. This is also the reason why MB can stun things that are considered "unstunnable" and eletrical attacks don't.
Perhaps it really infuses the targets brain with cheese and ethereal shield is really a large invisible man named joey who eats the cheese before it gets in your brain.
Whatever the case is this discussion is moot concidering ES is far from overpowered. I would be more than willing to point out a few spells that are overpowered if you really cant understand the diffrence between a spell that does what its sposed to decently and a spell that does far too much without checks in place take a look at TV, SLS, CRS, Huldah's pal (sp?) or Chill spirit (and many more) whatever the case is stop whining about a barrier spell doing what barrier spells do... protect..
<<Er.. thats still mana.
Unfortunately under the new system it isn't. It does make the process and effect of a MB a lot more easy to accept though.
We now hold and manipulate mana streams instead of harnessing mana. Excess spell energy (backfire) can harm us. Using the material (lunar energy) and effect of MB (stun and nerve damage) tells us that energy (previously what was harnessed mana) is a problem within the body.
No repression of energy seems possible as immediate effect of both backfire and MB. Hmm... does MAB still do the explosion of elemental energy and you convert it into held? If so then seems like a blooper.
Theorizing magic makes me feel so dirty and pathetic. How many showers did Rigby and Valdrik have to take or should the question be how many did they skip? ::fidgets::
Majebrad
Unfortunately under the new system it isn't. It does make the process and effect of a MB a lot more easy to accept though.
We now hold and manipulate mana streams instead of harnessing mana. Excess spell energy (backfire) can harm us. Using the material (lunar energy) and effect of MB (stun and nerve damage) tells us that energy (previously what was harnessed mana) is a problem within the body.
No repression of energy seems possible as immediate effect of both backfire and MB. Hmm... does MAB still do the explosion of elemental energy and you convert it into held? If so then seems like a blooper.
Theorizing magic makes me feel so dirty and pathetic. How many showers did Rigby and Valdrik have to take or should the question be how many did they skip? ::fidgets::
Majebrad
>I mean, seriously. No fight was ever decided by whether or not a warrior mage had up Ethereal Shield. He made it an all-purpose barrier because it used to be basically useless and every WM has to have it. It was a lemon of a spell before, and if it protected against only Elemental attacks, it'd be a lemon now.
>
Hey, Ethereal Shield saves my sorry life EVERY TIME I cast Mantle of Flame. grin
-Eudren
>
Hey, Ethereal Shield saves my sorry life EVERY TIME I cast Mantle of Flame. grin
-Eudren
