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I like the new version of this spell.. However one part of it doesn't make much sense to me.. A min prep will damage my armor.. a min prep fire shard won't by the same person but will cause more damage..
But why would a blast of cold air damage armor? Doesn't seem like it should be an armor damager at least as good as it is.. Especially against leather.
<<High winds wouldn't damage armor, unless there was something being blown IN the wind, like big objects that would cause dents, or sand or other particles that would cause erosion.>>
Completely false.
High winds have more than enough energy to cause serious damage to just about anything.
Completely false.
High winds have more than enough energy to cause serious damage to just about anything.
<<Seeing as how wind can break windows and tear houses out of their foundations, I think it's possible for it to hurt armor.>>
And if you're wearing armor, those high winds are going to do more damage to you than the armor if you're talking about being strong enough to tear down buildings.
And if you're wearing armor, those high winds are going to do more damage to you than the armor if you're talking about being strong enough to tear down buildings.
<<Completely false. High winds have more than enough energy to cause serious damage to just about anything. >>
Well, let's see. This is very basic. Violent wind is like a violent earthquake. It does not deal damage directly, but rather depends on other objects to deal its damage, or depends on the object itself, such as it's size. If you were in the middle of civilization when a huge earthquake struck, you are in huge danger. But if you are out in the middle of nowhere, you would just be shaken up a bit. Wind is a bit different, because even if you are in the middle nowhere, you will still be hurt from being flung up and then slammed into the ground, but at that point it is still the ground doing damage to you not the wind.
When you get to small objects, or more specifically, small STURDY objects like armor, it is almost impossible for wind to hurt it. Even a 500 mph wind can't hope to damage armor directly. 500 mph can rip a house out of it's foundation because of the houses size, and certain pressure areas within it. Even then, remember it's hurting the house only on a structural level, and not a chemical level.
Even then to deal direct damage to object with wind alone, even concentrated wind, it would take an unreal amount. For an object like armor, which is made from metal, which has chemical bonds so strong that it's used in the skeletons of our skyscrapers, to be harmed by wind is ludicrous.
<<Seeing as how wind can break windows and tear houses out of their foundations, I think it's possible for it to hurt armor.>>
Again, my point stands. Most windows in disasters are broken by objects other than wind. If they are broken by wind, it is probably due to a pressure inconsistency in the windowpanel itself. It doesn't take very much to break windows anyways, I can toss a stone and break one. Even then substances with glass structure when shaped right offer incredible resistence to wind, which is why they're used in everything from car windshields to aircraft windshields.
Sheesh, I thought basic physics was a requirement in most education curriculums =)
-Armas/Armasu
Well, let's see. This is very basic. Violent wind is like a violent earthquake. It does not deal damage directly, but rather depends on other objects to deal its damage, or depends on the object itself, such as it's size. If you were in the middle of civilization when a huge earthquake struck, you are in huge danger. But if you are out in the middle of nowhere, you would just be shaken up a bit. Wind is a bit different, because even if you are in the middle nowhere, you will still be hurt from being flung up and then slammed into the ground, but at that point it is still the ground doing damage to you not the wind.
When you get to small objects, or more specifically, small STURDY objects like armor, it is almost impossible for wind to hurt it. Even a 500 mph wind can't hope to damage armor directly. 500 mph can rip a house out of it's foundation because of the houses size, and certain pressure areas within it. Even then, remember it's hurting the house only on a structural level, and not a chemical level.
Even then to deal direct damage to object with wind alone, even concentrated wind, it would take an unreal amount. For an object like armor, which is made from metal, which has chemical bonds so strong that it's used in the skeletons of our skyscrapers, to be harmed by wind is ludicrous.
<<Seeing as how wind can break windows and tear houses out of their foundations, I think it's possible for it to hurt armor.>>
Again, my point stands. Most windows in disasters are broken by objects other than wind. If they are broken by wind, it is probably due to a pressure inconsistency in the windowpanel itself. It doesn't take very much to break windows anyways, I can toss a stone and break one. Even then substances with glass structure when shaped right offer incredible resistence to wind, which is why they're used in everything from car windshields to aircraft windshields.
Sheesh, I thought basic physics was a requirement in most education curriculums =)
-Armas/Armasu
Ok, to put it in plain english.
Force = mass times acceleration, or F=ma
How much MASS does air have again?
Kinetic energy = 1/2 times mass times velocity squared, or KE=1/2mv^2
How much MASS does air have again?
So, after this basic physics, someone explain the original poster's very very valid point that "how could cold air damage armor"? And someone explain zero elements folow up that "wind can damage almost anything"?
Force = mass times acceleration, or F=ma
How much MASS does air have again?
Kinetic energy = 1/2 times mass times velocity squared, or KE=1/2mv^2
How much MASS does air have again?
So, after this basic physics, someone explain the original poster's very very valid point that "how could cold air damage armor"? And someone explain zero elements folow up that "wind can damage almost anything"?
"How much MASS does air have again?"
I'm sorry you were unable to find this information. Perhaps I can be of help.
A cubic meter of air weighs 1.2 kilograms;
a cubic foot of air weighs 0.07 pounds.
The ammount of stagnant air in the atmosphere applies 14.7 pounds of pressure per square inch.
Beaufort scale of wind speed
Moderate gale.. 32-38 mph
Fresh gale....... 39-46 mph
Strong gale...... 47-54 mph
Storm............. 55-63 mph
Violent storm.... 64-73 mph
Hurricane......... >73 mph
Since (Apparantly, I wouldn't know myself)
Kinetic energy = 1/2 times mass times velocity squared, or KE=1/2mv^2
Therefore
KE = 1/2 times 0.07 times 73^2
= 1/2 times 0.07 times 5329
= 0.035 times 5329
KE = 186.515 per cubic foot of air at hurricane velocities.
I'm not entirely sure about the force equation (I don't know the acceleration, just the velocity), but I figure that a cubic foot of air at hurricane velocities is somewhere around five pounds of force.
I don't know myself what is all means, I just know the basic facts.
Much thanks to the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum and their, "How Things Fly" webpage.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/galleries/gal109/NEWHTF/HTF030.HTM
-Robert, who is not ignorant. Go figure.
I'm sorry you were unable to find this information. Perhaps I can be of help.
A cubic meter of air weighs 1.2 kilograms;
a cubic foot of air weighs 0.07 pounds.
The ammount of stagnant air in the atmosphere applies 14.7 pounds of pressure per square inch.
Beaufort scale of wind speed
Moderate gale.. 32-38 mph
Fresh gale....... 39-46 mph
Strong gale...... 47-54 mph
Storm............. 55-63 mph
Violent storm.... 64-73 mph
Hurricane......... >73 mph
Since (Apparantly, I wouldn't know myself)
Kinetic energy = 1/2 times mass times velocity squared, or KE=1/2mv^2
Therefore
KE = 1/2 times 0.07 times 73^2
= 1/2 times 0.07 times 5329
= 0.035 times 5329
KE = 186.515 per cubic foot of air at hurricane velocities.
I'm not entirely sure about the force equation (I don't know the acceleration, just the velocity), but I figure that a cubic foot of air at hurricane velocities is somewhere around five pounds of force.
I don't know myself what is all means, I just know the basic facts.
Much thanks to the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum and their, "How Things Fly" webpage.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/galleries/gal109/NEWHTF/HTF030.HTM
-Robert, who is not ignorant. Go figure.
Nice post Robert, but you need to preserve units in your future calculations.
Calculations from the numbers I was given in the previous post:
0.07 lbs <-- amount of mass in a cubic foot.
73 mi/h <-- minimum velocity of a hurricane wind under that system.
0.07 lbs = 0.031818181818 kg
1 kg = 2.20 lbs
73 mi/h = 117.457 km/h = 0.032626944444 km/s = 32.62694444444 m/s
1 mi/h = 1.609 km/h
1 h = 3600 s
1 km = 1000 m
ke = 1/2 mv^2
ke = (1/2) * (0.0318181818 kg) * (32.6269444444)^2
= 16.93550574 kg*m^2/s^2
= 16.93550574 J
= 12.45237775 ft*lb
1 J = 1 kg*m^2/s^2
1 ft*lb = 1.36 J
So how much energy is 16.9 Joules? Well, 1 calorie = 4184 joules. So a tic tac has roughly 250 times the amount of energy of a cubic foot of air traveling at hurricane speeds.
Onto force:
m = 0.07 lbs <-- given amount of mass
v = 73 mi/h <-- proposed speed of hurricane
t = 1 s <-- roundtime for Paeldraths Wrath
0.07 lbs = 0.031818181818 kg
1 kg = 2.20 lbs
73 mi/h = 117.457 km/h = 0.032626944444 km/s = 32.62694444444 m/s
a = 32.626944444 m/s / 1 s = 32.6269444444 m/s^2
F = ma = (0.031818181818 kg) * (32.6269444444 m/s^2)
= 1.038130051 kg*m/s^2
= 1.038130051 N
= 0.233579261 lb
1 kg*m/s^2 = 1 N
1 N = 0.225 lb
1 Newton is enough force to give a 1-kg an acceleration of about 1 m/s^2
An average man weighs about 76 kg.
A man wearing plate or chain armor is even more than that.
So if we really beefed up the physics to unreal natural states, like magical states, it could in theory move someone from melee to pole or ranged. Causing damage to armor is still a bit unbelievable. A target isn't a building, it isn't rooted to the ground. Because the target is pushed back, that absorbs the energy, leaving almost none to hurt the armor.
-Armas/Armasu
Calculations from the numbers I was given in the previous post:
0.07 lbs <-- amount of mass in a cubic foot.
73 mi/h <-- minimum velocity of a hurricane wind under that system.
0.07 lbs = 0.031818181818 kg
1 kg = 2.20 lbs
73 mi/h = 117.457 km/h = 0.032626944444 km/s = 32.62694444444 m/s
1 mi/h = 1.609 km/h
1 h = 3600 s
1 km = 1000 m
ke = 1/2 mv^2
ke = (1/2) * (0.0318181818 kg) * (32.6269444444)^2
= 16.93550574 kg*m^2/s^2
= 16.93550574 J
= 12.45237775 ft*lb
1 J = 1 kg*m^2/s^2
1 ft*lb = 1.36 J
So how much energy is 16.9 Joules? Well, 1 calorie = 4184 joules. So a tic tac has roughly 250 times the amount of energy of a cubic foot of air traveling at hurricane speeds.
Onto force:
m = 0.07 lbs <-- given amount of mass
v = 73 mi/h <-- proposed speed of hurricane
t = 1 s <-- roundtime for Paeldraths Wrath
0.07 lbs = 0.031818181818 kg
1 kg = 2.20 lbs
73 mi/h = 117.457 km/h = 0.032626944444 km/s = 32.62694444444 m/s
a = 32.626944444 m/s / 1 s = 32.6269444444 m/s^2
F = ma = (0.031818181818 kg) * (32.6269444444 m/s^2)
= 1.038130051 kg*m/s^2
= 1.038130051 N
= 0.233579261 lb
1 kg*m/s^2 = 1 N
1 N = 0.225 lb
1 Newton is enough force to give a 1-kg an acceleration of about 1 m/s^2
An average man weighs about 76 kg.
A man wearing plate or chain armor is even more than that.
So if we really beefed up the physics to unreal natural states, like magical states, it could in theory move someone from melee to pole or ranged. Causing damage to armor is still a bit unbelievable. A target isn't a building, it isn't rooted to the ground. Because the target is pushed back, that absorbs the energy, leaving almost none to hurt the armor.
-Armas/Armasu
Just a thought here guys. But I think everyone is looking at this as if the entire body is the target of the spell. Now suspend your doubts for a sec here. Now take the amount of air being moved, compress it into, lets say 3/8", and chanel it. Now you have a high compression rate coupled with amount. Basicly you've got an airline. I know for a fact, cause I work with this stuff all the time, that 500 PSI well blow throu your skin intering the blood stream, with nothing other then air going throu the line. Now take that stream of air and compress it into a .010 (10 thousandths of an inch) stream, 50,000 PSI. Now it's deadly. I work with water jets and compressed air to cut metal, so I have a tad of practical experience in this. We take super alloys, Rene 44, 88, Alloy 22, Inco 718, ect and cut it all the time. Now considering this, I think armor is not going to have the abilities that some of this aerospace metal will. So look at it in the fact that maybe the wind is compressed into a tight stream and thusly you get damage from it and the wind you see is leakage from said stream.
Syrr
Syrr
It's all well and good to pepper a post with your interpretation of how this works with relation to real-life physics, Armas, but unless you recognize the whole matter of pressure (F/A), you're not going to see the point.
Air could very easily (theoretically) hit with the force of a hammer if the blow was compressed into a small enough point of impact.
Consider PW as a great column of air, fired at the target at tremendous speed.
Then we'll get somewhere.
Air could very easily (theoretically) hit with the force of a hammer if the blow was compressed into a small enough point of impact.
Consider PW as a great column of air, fired at the target at tremendous speed.
Then we'll get somewhere.
<<qarths post>>
You bring a very good point, although a water jet isn't quite the same as a normal jet of air because of it's increased mass. Like you said, the compression would have to be incredibly focused, in the hundreths of thousandths of an inch. However the spell description of PW isn't "a compressed beam of air that's incredibly narrow", rather more like a blast from a column of air, which wouldn't do the trick because of it's exponentially large surface area.
It's rather a moot point, DR physics can work in whatever unreal fashion it wants to. This discussion wouldn't have been started if that was the original response to the poster, instead responses were like "you think it's that hard that air can hurt armor", or "think tornado", or "high winds have MORE than enough energy to hurt ANYTHING". It's hard to debate when people post vague one-liners, so I just felt like showing EXACTLY how much energy winds have from the numbers ROBERTDH posted.
-Armas/Armasu
You bring a very good point, although a water jet isn't quite the same as a normal jet of air because of it's increased mass. Like you said, the compression would have to be incredibly focused, in the hundreths of thousandths of an inch. However the spell description of PW isn't "a compressed beam of air that's incredibly narrow", rather more like a blast from a column of air, which wouldn't do the trick because of it's exponentially large surface area.
It's rather a moot point, DR physics can work in whatever unreal fashion it wants to. This discussion wouldn't have been started if that was the original response to the poster, instead responses were like "you think it's that hard that air can hurt armor", or "think tornado", or "high winds have MORE than enough energy to hurt ANYTHING". It's hard to debate when people post vague one-liners, so I just felt like showing EXACTLY how much energy winds have from the numbers ROBERTDH posted.
-Armas/Armasu
<<It's rather a moot point, DR physics can work in whatever unreal fashion it wants to. This discussion wouldn't have been started if that was the original response to the poster, instead responses were like "you think it's that hard that air can hurt armor", or "think tornado", or "high winds have MORE than enough energy to hurt ANYTHING". It's hard to debate when people post vague one-liners, so I just felt like showing EXACTLY how much energy winds have from the numbers ROBERTDH posted.>>
There's nothing 'vague' about what I posted.
Air is matter, and matter accelerated in a focused blast at a high enough rate of speed can cause serious damage to anything.
It wouldn't have to be thousandths of an inch thick. It would need to be reasonably narrow, and traveling extremely quickly. If that weren't the case, it wouldn't be possible for such a short-term burst to push a fairly weighty target back 30 or 40 feet in the first place.
The fact that I didn't post up 60 lines of physics equations to prove it is irrelevant. It's the truth.
There's nothing 'vague' about what I posted.
Air is matter, and matter accelerated in a focused blast at a high enough rate of speed can cause serious damage to anything.
It wouldn't have to be thousandths of an inch thick. It would need to be reasonably narrow, and traveling extremely quickly. If that weren't the case, it wouldn't be possible for such a short-term burst to push a fairly weighty target back 30 or 40 feet in the first place.
The fact that I didn't post up 60 lines of physics equations to prove it is irrelevant. It's the truth.
<<Well, let's see. This is very basic. Violent wind is like a violent earthquake. It does not deal damage directly, but rather depends on other objects to deal its damage, or depends on the object itself, such as it's size.>>
So, by your theory, if someone was standing still, and a million mile an hour wind focused to the size of a fist suddenly hit them in their gut... they would not incur any damage. That makes sense.
"Wind" itself is a product of force and "air"; "air" is very much a thing containing "objects".
At any rate, how does this apply to the fantasy game we are playing? Is it such a stretch for your imagination to accept the fact that PW can damage someones armor?
-P
So, by your theory, if someone was standing still, and a million mile an hour wind focused to the size of a fist suddenly hit them in their gut... they would not incur any damage. That makes sense.
"Wind" itself is a product of force and "air"; "air" is very much a thing containing "objects".
At any rate, how does this apply to the fantasy game we are playing? Is it such a stretch for your imagination to accept the fact that PW can damage someones armor?
-P
Wind strong and focused enough to break armor with blunt force alone would almost certainly kill the person wearing the armor in the process. We're talking bullet-force winds here: extreme concentrations of air that would snap the backbone of the target long before damaging the armor protecting her outsides. (This is similar to the "bionic arm" problem: a person who recieved a bionic implant to increase her upper body strength still couldn't lift an 18 wheeler, because doing so would simply snap her legs and spine.)
Some objects are incredibly resistant to wind. A burlap sack has a better chance of surviving a hurricane intact than a building does. All
armors except plate are rather supple. I can't picture anything but the most violent and concentrated winds damaging them. And again, any wind strong enough to actually bend plate armor would crush the target's bones long before the plate itself was actually distorted.
The good side for War Mages on this is that armor should not really protect against wind...at least, not as much as against other kinds of attacks. Wind damage is mostly a result of the violent disclocation of body parts (i.e. having your shoulder suddenly shoved into an akward position), which armor couldn't really protect against. IMHO, the best way to handle wind damage is to treat it as if it were falling damage. (This is also an especially easy way to calculate damage done when a target is blown backwards into a wall, another possibility that should exist for PW).
Lainn
Some objects are incredibly resistant to wind. A burlap sack has a better chance of surviving a hurricane intact than a building does. All
armors except plate are rather supple. I can't picture anything but the most violent and concentrated winds damaging them. And again, any wind strong enough to actually bend plate armor would crush the target's bones long before the plate itself was actually distorted.
The good side for War Mages on this is that armor should not really protect against wind...at least, not as much as against other kinds of attacks. Wind damage is mostly a result of the violent disclocation of body parts (i.e. having your shoulder suddenly shoved into an akward position), which armor couldn't really protect against. IMHO, the best way to handle wind damage is to treat it as if it were falling damage. (This is also an especially easy way to calculate damage done when a target is blown backwards into a wall, another possibility that should exist for PW).
Lainn
>>[Armasu's post]
Oh good, you got to the whole preservation of units before I did. Save me the trouble. One problem with yours, though...
>>So how much energy is 16.9 Joules? Well, 1 calorie = 4184 joules. So a tic tac has roughly 250 times the amount of energy of a cubic foot of air traveling at hurricane speeds.
1 calorie is the amount of energy it takes to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree centigrade. However, when you're talking about food products, calories are actually kilocalories. So the "1 calorie" in a tic tac has enough energy to raise 1 gram of water by up to 1000 degrees centigrade, or 1 kg (liter) of water 1 degree - I'm assuming they round up, if at all.
So actually... that tic-tac has more like 250,000 times the amount of energy that your chunk of air in a hurricane has. Shocking.
- Shavay Silvamon, Heritage Monographs (freelance)
Oh good, you got to the whole preservation of units before I did. Save me the trouble. One problem with yours, though...
>>So how much energy is 16.9 Joules? Well, 1 calorie = 4184 joules. So a tic tac has roughly 250 times the amount of energy of a cubic foot of air traveling at hurricane speeds.
1 calorie is the amount of energy it takes to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree centigrade. However, when you're talking about food products, calories are actually kilocalories. So the "1 calorie" in a tic tac has enough energy to raise 1 gram of water by up to 1000 degrees centigrade, or 1 kg (liter) of water 1 degree - I'm assuming they round up, if at all.
So actually... that tic-tac has more like 250,000 times the amount of energy that your chunk of air in a hurricane has. Shocking.
- Shavay Silvamon, Heritage Monographs (freelance)
<<So actually... that tic-tac has more like 250,000 times the amount of energy that your chunk of air in a hurricane has. Shocking.
- Shavay Silvamon, Heritage Monographs (freelance)>>
So actually, he misplaced a decimal point, and it's 4.184 joules. Not 4184.
This is the stupidest argument ever.
- Shavay Silvamon, Heritage Monographs (freelance)>>
So actually, he misplaced a decimal point, and it's 4.184 joules. Not 4184.
This is the stupidest argument ever.
> 1 calorie is the amount of energy it takes to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree centigrade. However, when you're talking about food products, calories are actually kilocalories.
He actually took that into account:
>> 1 calorie = 4184 joules
1 calorie = 4.184 joules. 1 kilocalorie = 4184 joules.
Seldaren
He actually took that into account:
>> 1 calorie = 4184 joules
1 calorie = 4.184 joules. 1 kilocalorie = 4184 joules.
Seldaren
>"An average man weighs about 76 kg.
A man wearing plate or chain armor is even more than that."
I belive that an average man presents at most a square meter of surface area if head-on, in case that helps anything. Also- anyone know how far you can lean before toppling?
This is a silly discussion. Remeber, winged animals cannot fly.
-Robert
A man wearing plate or chain armor is even more than that."
I belive that an average man presents at most a square meter of surface area if head-on, in case that helps anything. Also- anyone know how far you can lean before toppling?
This is a silly discussion. Remeber, winged animals cannot fly.
-Robert
<<Air is matter, and matter accelerated in a focused blast at a high enough rate of speed can cause serious damage to anything.>>
Air is negligble matter. In it's natural state it's a collection of unbonded molecules with an extremely low density. In a compressed state, it's still a collection of unbonded molecules. Metal is a high dense collection of molecules with strong metallic bonds. Even if you have the hypercompressed beam of air that Qarth pointed out, it still would have a neglible effect on metal. Sure you might have overwhelming PSI, but the difference between the strength of a metallic bond vs no bond negates that. I would fish out my old chemistry book somewhere with tables of the energy required to break metallic bonds (which is quite high I assure you compared to the almost non-existent bonds in air), but I'm lazy :). It's only when you add the density with water that you have any damaging effect.
<<It wouldn't have to be thousandths of an inch thick. It would need to be reasonably narrow, and traveling extremely quickly.>>
That's vague. Reasonably narrow? Extremely quick? Measurements are a BIG thing in all forms of science. The difference between force distributed 0.010 square inch and one square foot is so different that it's like comparing mangos and crankshafts.
<<The fact that I didn't post up 60 lines of physics equations to prove it is irrelevant. It's the truth. >>
It is not the truth. I put up 2 physics equations to show how valid the original's poster's criticism of armor damage was. You are making assumptions about real life physics with nothing to back up your claims, relying on common knowledge. In ancient times, everyone thought a heavier object would fall faster than a lighter object until someone dropped two objects off a tower of different weights that hit the ground at the same time. Oops for them.
<<This is the stupidest argument ever.>>
I've already pointed out that it was a moot point dicussing the physics of magic. However because some earlier posters are linking it with real life physics I think it is educational to really see how feasible wind is in damaging armor. If you want to drop the argument that's fine =) In the future just be a bit more cautious before you disregard someone else's post as "completely false" and make statements with such universal quantifiers as "high winds has more than enough energy to damage anything".
-Armas/Armasu
Air is negligble matter. In it's natural state it's a collection of unbonded molecules with an extremely low density. In a compressed state, it's still a collection of unbonded molecules. Metal is a high dense collection of molecules with strong metallic bonds. Even if you have the hypercompressed beam of air that Qarth pointed out, it still would have a neglible effect on metal. Sure you might have overwhelming PSI, but the difference between the strength of a metallic bond vs no bond negates that. I would fish out my old chemistry book somewhere with tables of the energy required to break metallic bonds (which is quite high I assure you compared to the almost non-existent bonds in air), but I'm lazy :). It's only when you add the density with water that you have any damaging effect.
<<It wouldn't have to be thousandths of an inch thick. It would need to be reasonably narrow, and traveling extremely quickly.>>
That's vague. Reasonably narrow? Extremely quick? Measurements are a BIG thing in all forms of science. The difference between force distributed 0.010 square inch and one square foot is so different that it's like comparing mangos and crankshafts.
<<The fact that I didn't post up 60 lines of physics equations to prove it is irrelevant. It's the truth. >>
It is not the truth. I put up 2 physics equations to show how valid the original's poster's criticism of armor damage was. You are making assumptions about real life physics with nothing to back up your claims, relying on common knowledge. In ancient times, everyone thought a heavier object would fall faster than a lighter object until someone dropped two objects off a tower of different weights that hit the ground at the same time. Oops for them.
<<This is the stupidest argument ever.>>
I've already pointed out that it was a moot point dicussing the physics of magic. However because some earlier posters are linking it with real life physics I think it is educational to really see how feasible wind is in damaging armor. If you want to drop the argument that's fine =) In the future just be a bit more cautious before you disregard someone else's post as "completely false" and make statements with such universal quantifiers as "high winds has more than enough energy to damage anything".
-Armas/Armasu
<<-Armas/Armasu>>
You don't have to break the chemical bonds of metal armor to damage interlocking rings or large plates of metal. We're not talking about causing complete chemical destruction and turning the armor into something utterly different from what it once was.
We're talking about producing enough force to dent a metal plate or tear loose a few metal rings out of an entire suit (which is consistent with the amount of armor damage PW actually does).
As for the rest of what you said... I am both unwilling and unable to dredge up my Physics textbooks in order to prove that air is not "neglible" matter. You used F=m*a. That's a nice simple equation that completely ignores pressure at the point of impact, which the other poster explained nicely. However, he was also talking about cutting high-quality alloys with a jet of compressed water or air. Things in DR are not made of high-quality modern alloys and PW doesn't cut armor. We're talking about minor damage from the force of impact.
Obviously, real-life physics does not apply (mostly) to DR. There's no point to supplying lots and lots of numbers which only apply in our universe. However, having seen high winds break down windows, bend large metal fences in half, throw 200-pound boat hulls through the air (while their sails were down) and so on, I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense. Air is negligible matter and shouldn't be able to damage anything!"
You don't have to break the chemical bonds of metal armor to damage interlocking rings or large plates of metal. We're not talking about causing complete chemical destruction and turning the armor into something utterly different from what it once was.
We're talking about producing enough force to dent a metal plate or tear loose a few metal rings out of an entire suit (which is consistent with the amount of armor damage PW actually does).
As for the rest of what you said... I am both unwilling and unable to dredge up my Physics textbooks in order to prove that air is not "neglible" matter. You used F=m*a. That's a nice simple equation that completely ignores pressure at the point of impact, which the other poster explained nicely. However, he was also talking about cutting high-quality alloys with a jet of compressed water or air. Things in DR are not made of high-quality modern alloys and PW doesn't cut armor. We're talking about minor damage from the force of impact.
Obviously, real-life physics does not apply (mostly) to DR. There's no point to supplying lots and lots of numbers which only apply in our universe. However, having seen high winds break down windows, bend large metal fences in half, throw 200-pound boat hulls through the air (while their sails were down) and so on, I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense. Air is negligible matter and shouldn't be able to damage anything!"
I actually tried the blow dryer test and the only thing I got from it was a nice little breeze. The diameter of the nozzle from which the air comes forth is about 2 inches, resulting in an area of about 3.14 square inches. Since Paeldryth's Wrath is suppose to be a blast of cold air, i put the setting of the blow dryer on high on cold. It was about an inch away from my nose. I didn't feel much at all, mostly because the blow dryer isn't designed that way. Even if it was much more condensed, much colder, and much faster, i don't think air could damage armor due purely to impact.
To tear loose a few rings from chain armor, you'd have to break the bonds of some of the metal atoms in order to get them to come apart from the suit. They had to put energy into the molecule to get the rings shaped the way they are and to get them to join together.
As for high winds breaking windows, it could be due to a difference in pressure from inside the house to the outside conditions, pushing the window into the home. Unless, you're talking about high winds picking up objects, say 200 lb boat hulls, and lurching it at a home and therefore shattering the window. =)
To tear loose a few rings from chain armor, you'd have to break the bonds of some of the metal atoms in order to get them to come apart from the suit. They had to put energy into the molecule to get the rings shaped the way they are and to get them to join together.
As for high winds breaking windows, it could be due to a difference in pressure from inside the house to the outside conditions, pushing the window into the home. Unless, you're talking about high winds picking up objects, say 200 lb boat hulls, and lurching it at a home and therefore shattering the window. =)
<<You don't have to break the chemical bonds of metal armor to damage interlocking rings or large plates of metal. We're not talking about causing complete chemical destruction and turning the armor into something utterly different from what it once was.>>
No we aren't. We're talking about misshaping, bending the armor, which would require the bonds between the metals to break. This is physical change, not a chemical one. And that would still require an unreal amount of force.
<<We're talking about producing enough force to dent a metal plate or tear loose a few metal rings out of an entire suit (which is consistent with the amount of armor damage PW actually does).>>
Yes that's what we're talking about.
<<You used F=m*a. That's a nice simple equation that completely ignores pressure at the point of impact, which the other poster explained nicely.>>
Well you didn't exactly specify a specific area. The other poster did specify an area of .01, which is still not enough to do any sort of noticable damage without some other mass like water. On top of that you still haven't considered the energy it takes to break the bonds of the metal in the first place.
<<Obviously, real-life physics does not apply (mostly) to DR. There's no point to supplying lots and lots of numbers which only apply in our universe. However, having seen high winds break down windows, bend large metal fences in half, throw 200-pound boat hulls through the air (while their sails were down) and so on, I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense.>>
You still honestly believe stationary, rigid objects like structures will suffer the same damage from wind as a flexible non-stationary object.....?
<<I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense. Air is negligible matter and shouldn't be able to damage anything!" >>
No one is using that kind of language, more specifically the, "completely" and the "anything" except you. For the 4th time, my assertion is is near impossible for air to damage certain objects, in particular armor, and your assertion is that HIGH WINDS HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH ENERGY TO DAMAGE ANYTHING cough.
=)
No we aren't. We're talking about misshaping, bending the armor, which would require the bonds between the metals to break. This is physical change, not a chemical one. And that would still require an unreal amount of force.
<<We're talking about producing enough force to dent a metal plate or tear loose a few metal rings out of an entire suit (which is consistent with the amount of armor damage PW actually does).>>
Yes that's what we're talking about.
<<You used F=m*a. That's a nice simple equation that completely ignores pressure at the point of impact, which the other poster explained nicely.>>
Well you didn't exactly specify a specific area. The other poster did specify an area of .01, which is still not enough to do any sort of noticable damage without some other mass like water. On top of that you still haven't considered the energy it takes to break the bonds of the metal in the first place.
<<Obviously, real-life physics does not apply (mostly) to DR. There's no point to supplying lots and lots of numbers which only apply in our universe. However, having seen high winds break down windows, bend large metal fences in half, throw 200-pound boat hulls through the air (while their sails were down) and so on, I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense.>>
You still honestly believe stationary, rigid objects like structures will suffer the same damage from wind as a flexible non-stationary object.....?
<<I fail to see how anybody could get their armor knocked down to "practically mint condition" and think "Wow, that makes no sense. Air is negligible matter and shouldn't be able to damage anything!" >>
No one is using that kind of language, more specifically the, "completely" and the "anything" except you. For the 4th time, my assertion is is near impossible for air to damage certain objects, in particular armor, and your assertion is that HIGH WINDS HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH ENERGY TO DAMAGE ANYTHING cough.
=)
<<No one is using that kind of language, more specifically the, "completely" and the "anything" except you. For the 4th time, my assertion is is near impossible for air to damage certain objects, in particular armor, and your assertion is that HIGH WINDS HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH ENERGY TO DAMAGE ANYTHING cough.
=)>>
Ahh, I see. I must've posted in all caps and added ridiculous smileys in order to discredit myself. Yes, that is what I must have done. I was in a temporary coma when I did it, no doubt.
And, finally:
"For the 4th time, my assertion is is near impossible for air to damage certain objects, in particular armor"
What makes armor so special, exactly? You keep saying things like, "Well, you'd need unnaturally strong air currents for this to work..."
Well, yes. You would. That's why they're generated with magic and not a bamboo fan or a barbarian's armpit. (In the real world, you'd need quite a sophisticated apparatus to deliver a blast of air at sufficient speed/pressure to produce PW's effects -- but I really don't feel like looking for a lab with a bored enough technician to try this out.)
I imagine the armor damage is intended more to reflect the fact that being tossed through the air and landing heavily on the ground isn't particularly conducive to keeping your armor in top shape, but the idea that armor is somehow invulnerable to air currents simply because it's armor is ludicrous. Leather and chain should probably be harder to damage with the spell, with plate being more susceptible to it.
"Well you didn't exactly specify a specific area. The other poster did specify an area of .01, which is still not enough to do any sort of noticable damage without some other mass like water."
Indeed! I didn't specify an area because I, myself, have never cast the spell. I can't specify the density of the air mass being used by the spell either, as I don't actually live in Elanthia. It's probably safe to assume that it's not normal, run-of-the mill air at 1 [Earth] atmosphere worth of pressure.
Bottom line is that it'd be stupid for the spell to kill someone by decimating their entire chest cavity with a muffled explosion and leave their armor in one piece. On top of that, there's no reason why a [significantly altered] blast of air couldn't do that sort of damage, even in real life. It'd take lots of energy to produce such a blast, of course. This is why magic = good.
Anyhoo, I'm officially bored with this. Feel free to pretend that armor is an invincible sheet of all-encompassing wonderment, if you want.
=)>>
Ahh, I see. I must've posted in all caps and added ridiculous smileys in order to discredit myself. Yes, that is what I must have done. I was in a temporary coma when I did it, no doubt.
And, finally:
"For the 4th time, my assertion is is near impossible for air to damage certain objects, in particular armor"
What makes armor so special, exactly? You keep saying things like, "Well, you'd need unnaturally strong air currents for this to work..."
Well, yes. You would. That's why they're generated with magic and not a bamboo fan or a barbarian's armpit. (In the real world, you'd need quite a sophisticated apparatus to deliver a blast of air at sufficient speed/pressure to produce PW's effects -- but I really don't feel like looking for a lab with a bored enough technician to try this out.)
I imagine the armor damage is intended more to reflect the fact that being tossed through the air and landing heavily on the ground isn't particularly conducive to keeping your armor in top shape, but the idea that armor is somehow invulnerable to air currents simply because it's armor is ludicrous. Leather and chain should probably be harder to damage with the spell, with plate being more susceptible to it.
"Well you didn't exactly specify a specific area. The other poster did specify an area of .01, which is still not enough to do any sort of noticable damage without some other mass like water."
Indeed! I didn't specify an area because I, myself, have never cast the spell. I can't specify the density of the air mass being used by the spell either, as I don't actually live in Elanthia. It's probably safe to assume that it's not normal, run-of-the mill air at 1 [Earth] atmosphere worth of pressure.
Bottom line is that it'd be stupid for the spell to kill someone by decimating their entire chest cavity with a muffled explosion and leave their armor in one piece. On top of that, there's no reason why a [significantly altered] blast of air couldn't do that sort of damage, even in real life. It'd take lots of energy to produce such a blast, of course. This is why magic = good.
Anyhoo, I'm officially bored with this. Feel free to pretend that armor is an invincible sheet of all-encompassing wonderment, if you want.
Why won't my tic-tac explode people? It has like a billion times the energy of a nuclear missile!
I have an aether lance in my backyard, and it has an energy greater than 4 TeV.
Why isn't it breaking armor in game? I don't understand it, it should be creating Higgs bosons and bringing world peace.
If only we had more people who knew everything about physics posting here, my questions would be answered.
-Frogspawn
I have an aether lance in my backyard, and it has an energy greater than 4 TeV.
Why isn't it breaking armor in game? I don't understand it, it should be creating Higgs bosons and bringing world peace.
If only we had more people who knew everything about physics posting here, my questions would be answered.
-Frogspawn
I'm sorry to continue this conversation, but although Armas'/Armasu's data is nicely arranged.. the fundamental equation is flawed. This is not simple physics, it's fluid dynamics, therefore as I believe someone else mentioned you do have to take the surface area of contact into account, and many other variables that are impossible to simply negate. Consequently you would use those equations for your calculations(not F=ma probably something that looks more like Bernoulli's equation and most likely a few others I don't feel like taking into account), and you would derive a fitting density as your result. This density would indeed be excessive, so I would tend to agree with your point that it would be unlikely that the actual winds themselves are the cause of the armor's damage. That is not to say that the spell should not cause damage. have you tried casting the spell with the person already lying down? that would be an interesting test I think. If no damage, then the armor damage from PW would be from the fall.. not the actual spell. Again, I appologize for continuing the argument, I just felt I should make the note.
Newt
Newt
>>Woah... out-of-mu* experience...<<
Friend of mine joined DR for the first time recently, and a day later gets robbed blind. He IMs me, and tells me he's so used to being a Setite that he forgot that he wasn't on the Thieves' side. There's something to be said for temple oriented, rather then class, roleplaying.
And to say something remotely on topic:
Damage from sheer air is somewhat silly, unless the air pressure is reaching such obscene levels that armor probably wouldn't be the first thing you're worrying about (there's an interesting spell: Implode). But the 'game' aspect always comes before considerations such as 'reality' or 'the laws of physics.'
All told, this isn't the most unreal aspect of the game. It's probably not even in the same ball park. Folks, if we can look at things like the current stealth system or NMU 'extraordinary' abilities without blinking, we can excuse a bit of surreality with a magic spell.
Larcus' Player
Friend of mine joined DR for the first time recently, and a day later gets robbed blind. He IMs me, and tells me he's so used to being a Setite that he forgot that he wasn't on the Thieves' side. There's something to be said for temple oriented, rather then class, roleplaying.
And to say something remotely on topic:
Damage from sheer air is somewhat silly, unless the air pressure is reaching such obscene levels that armor probably wouldn't be the first thing you're worrying about (there's an interesting spell: Implode). But the 'game' aspect always comes before considerations such as 'reality' or 'the laws of physics.'
All told, this isn't the most unreal aspect of the game. It's probably not even in the same ball park. Folks, if we can look at things like the current stealth system or NMU 'extraordinary' abilities without blinking, we can excuse a bit of surreality with a magic spell.
Larcus' Player
