>well, that 'lie' was told by a GM (Tarragon if memory serves), so take it as you like or don't like.

I'm not saying anyone lied or didn't lie. I'm saying after probably 10k plus skillful peels on 4 different creatures I've yet to see a single one.

Would love if someone could double check if it's even possible in the current system.

Xavier

>>The skinning bonus to Rangers pails in comparison to other bonuses out there. It has been and remains very much in line with the Global Caps.....Jent

A ranger with only 100 ranks in skinning not only can skin a rat better than me (I have over 300 ranks in skinning), but they also get twice what I get for a pelt. That is greater than a 200 rank bonus. I doubt that falls under your global caps for such low level characters. Are you sure you aren't thinking about some of the bonuses that have plans for being changed?

Later,

Grungy

>>Arrange is an ability, not a bonus.

Arrange is an ability that gives rangers a bonus to skinning. Much like cobra dance is an ability that give barbarians a bonus to melee weapons.

>>Jent was referring to the fact that with equal amounts of skinning between a Ranger and a non-Ranger, the Ranger would get a better pelt more often due to their Ranger bonus being applied to skinning.

I understand what Jent was referring to, but my post had more to do with the things Jent failed to mention than what he did mention.

Grungy

Arrange is not a bonus. Much as carving lockpicks is not a bonus. Rather, arrange is a penalty to skinning, with a lucrative reward for overcoming that penalty and creating a finer product. Your reference to rat pelts and ranks could easily be applied to other situations. I have more ranks of edge than some barbs I know, yet they can turn out a superior product, what's more, they can grind the blades for an even better finish. I have more ranks in locks than some teefs I know that carve superior/professional/master locks, yet I can't even carve a crude one anymore. I know I'll never make metal armor compared to a pallie. I can't make celestial jewelry, regardless of my magic skills. I can't backstab, can't make poison. IT'S CALLED GUILD DIVERSITY PEOPLE!!!!

Get over it. I can't wait for bandages to come out, as well as making of runestones and instruments, so that every guild can have it's own special ability. Then maybe the whining will cease. Yeah right. Then the samatak will wear off and I'll notice the whining again.

Fred

pretty certain there are some with over 300, and that was your contention. You have 300 in skinning, and a ranger with 100 can do better. Just accept that it's guild diversity and let it go.

>>pretty certain there are some with over 300, and that was your contention. You have 300 in skinning, and a ranger with 100 can do better. Just accept that it's guild diversity and let it go.

I used 100 ranks for skinning because 100 ranks will allow a ranger to get the best rat pelt possible. 100 ranks in all blades is not nearly enough for a barbarian to produce a superior weapon. I tripled the skill requirements because I consider that a reasonable amount of skill to expect to overcome guild advantages. If a ranger or somebody from another guild want to whine about not forging as well as I do, they may do so after they've tripled my blade average (I'll cut them some slack and only make them double my mech though).

Grungy

>The reduction of experience for failed attempts also was another kick in the pants... now the people who don't have enough skinning to skin something at their level simply can't learn and are graced with snide skinning comments. ::grins::

If you're willing to hunt things with good generation rates, and willing to take an occasional cut to the limbs, you can still easily learn skinning when you're getting horrible failure messaging.

Either the reduction wasn't that enormous, there's a gigantic range within which you can learn even while failing, or the messaging is out of line with how badly you're failing.

Well just as an aside to Maje and all that are reading. The reason I feel that skinning is now so hard to do as compared to before is because Rangers were easily able to skin things and not learn anything from them by time they were able to hunt them. This was (and still is) because of our bonus being "broken" in regards to our experience.

Let me illustrate. A Ranger with 100 ranks skinning may be getting 20 ranks from his Ranger bonus. Now as it stands currently, that Ranger would be learning as if they actually HAD 120 ranks skinning, not 100. So a Ranger with 100 ranks skinning would not be able to learn anything from a critter than required 90 or 100 ranks to skin, because they would already be able to skin it perfectly every time.

The fix coming, however, would make it so that the same Ranger would learn from the critter as if he had 100 ranks (which he actually does have), only they would be able to learn better because they would obviously be succeeding more than a normal character with only 100 ranks due to thier bonus.

With the change that's coming, I think that perhaps skinning will become a bit less difficult on other guilds because we won't need to have things that can be killed with 100 in weapons require 150 in skinning anymore just so we can learn. They can be brought down to a regular level again.

At least, that's my take on the situation.

And as an aside for Grungy: I feel that if someone say doubles the requirement, they should have the possiblity of getting the same results. Meaning that with 200 in skinning, you should be able to have a chance (1 in 50 or so) to get a trophy pelt from a creature. I feel that those numbers are reasonable because

a) You don't actually have the ability to arrange it anyway, so 1 in 50 is about the best you could do for just skinning something really well that isn't arranged.

b) We can't arrange a rat ourselves until 100 ranks, I don't think it's fair to say that you should get the benefit of our ability until you've at LEAST doubled it. But again, those are just my opinions, make what you like of them.

-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

<<If you're willing to hunt things with good generation rates, and willing to take an occasional cut to the limbs, you can still easily learn skinning when you're getting horrible failure messaging.

Granted, but the loss was significant at the time.

<<the messaging is out of line with how badly you're failing

::chuckles:: I think all of the non-ranger messaging is out of line nearly. I can't wait for the line...

Failing like only a non-Ranger can fail you skillfully insert your <item> beside your spinal cord and begin to skin with great concentration. Being a non-Ranger you completely blunder the attempt to skin <creature> and end up severing your own spinal cord! Cleric!

*Majebrad was just struck down!

An image of Treveri flashes through your mind, him pointing and laughing at your absolutely pathetic attempt to skin as a non-Ranger.

<insert death messaging>

Majebrad, last one I swear

Well,this has all been very informative.It sounds to me like the entire skinning system needs to be revamped,just like magic was,along with the ranger bonusing system,hopefully to bring skinning into line with the current trend with creation systems are going through,since it is an integral part of the tanning process.Maybe a GM can comment on that?

Drachus

>>I give up. Let's end guild diversity. Lets give everyone, regardless of guild the ability to do anything open to other guilds. Will that satisfy those wanting to get trophy pelt? Lets just make it cookie cutter realms. All commoners, who can cast spells, backstab, forge, skin, carve, tan, trade, heal, tend, enchant, and sing all equal, with nobody having any niche in the realms that they have a special talent for. Make it all ranks only.

Fred/Jay1972,

It would help the discussion if you would pay attention to what is being discussed, not let your imagination and paranoia take charge.

From everything being discussed, it was NEVER an attempt to open ARRANGE to the masses, but instead an attempt to open getting a chance, not a guarantee but a chance, of for a non-Ranger to get a trophy skin.

The reason it cam eup is because the Tanning system, which is nominally open to anyone in any guild, shows a marked preference for a tanner who uses trophy skins to make a tanned item. Now, either Tanning needs to be fixed so that a tanner can get good results without requiring a trophy skin, or trophy skin acquisition needs to be opened up to more than just Rangers

Now, IMO, and apparently many others, reducing the trophy skin requirement doesn't make sense, since it DOES make sense that a better starting place will get you to a better ending place; so the other option is to request that the ability to get trophy skins be opened up to non-Rangers.

Note that at no time has ANYOEN requested for non-Rangers to get ARRANGE. This has been stated and restated multiple times. On the other hand, it has been stated, and supported by Rangers, no less, that a sufficiently skilled non-Ranger should have a chance of obtaining a trophy skin. Sufficiently skilled is the MAIN point currently under discussion, with the general acknowledgement that a non-Ranger would need a significantly higher amount of skill to have a minimal chance of getting a trophy skin than a Ranger does.

So our discussion, which is moving into the realms of pure theory, has been revolving around how much skill above that needed by a Ranger would be fair to both Rangers and non-Rangers.

At no point have any of us been advocating the end to guild diversity, at least not during this thread. Our goal has been to remove an artificial constraint on an open system that affects anyone who wants to tan.

Marty, player of Kynevon

Before you start labelling me with terms like paranoia and imagination, please do your research. If you will look back to the beginning of this thread, you'll find this:

>>With the opening up of creation systems to all,albiet with guild assosiated bonuses,I think the situation with tanning and arranged skins needs to be looked into.Either by removing the difference between trophy pelts and skillfully skinned pelts as far as item quality is concerned,or opening the arrange verb up to all with a bonus to rangers.

>>Drachus

Note the last sentence. But yeah, I'm just imagining it.

Ignorant Fred

>>Majebrad>>and make skinning easier for non-rangers to at least make some profit hunting things that don't drop boxes in the 50 to 150 skinning range based on player combat progression.

Oh, that's easy.

When you come to the Ranger boards, ask for our advice in skinning, then go into the game and actually USE it instead of going back to skinning with a halberd while standing on your head and wondering why it didn't work .... then you'll see some profits!

Until the way Guilds with modifiers gain exp is fixed, that modifier is a curse more than a blessing when it comes to exp. Yeah, my 170 skinning will perform better than your 200 skinning if my modifier is hot ... but your 200 skinning will be learning twice as fast. And that really bites, you know?

Not only that, but your 200 skinning will outperform my 170 skinning if my bonus is even neutral (170 is 170 then) ... and we won't go into what happens to it if my modifier goes negative (and yes, it DOES go negative).

Oh, and Grungy? If you are so hot about Guilds having things totally for themselves ... then I want to see you posting about never again seeing Barb-only weapons (you know, those ones which burn you unless you have *inner fire*), ok?

>>Majebrad>>Skinning is not a ranger special ability. Arrange is. This thread has turned into general skinning discussion.

Oh really? Could've fooled me.

>>Grungy>>A ranger with only 100 ranks in skinning not only can skin a rat better than me

Wrong. Without ARRANGE, that Ranger will skin a rat just as well as you. You will both get a skillful peel which hits the cap ... exactly the same. Nice try to derail the conversation. Arranging does NOT boost our skill (so your comparison to Cobra dance isnt even apples to oranges, at least thats two fruits ... yours is more like apples to fish), it increases the difficulty of the pelt while opening up extra levels of potential pelt quality ... once that is done, we still must have the skill to USE it.

Which means a pelt which normally caps its skinning skill at 200 ranks ... will require 300-400 (remember that 50-100% increase?) to get a trophy. Now imagine what it will be like when you get to a critter that caps at 300 (450-600) or 400 (600-800!). It just gets insane. And because of how skinning exp works, as those ranges get wider and wider, eventually you reach an area where every time you either botch it altogether or get a trophy but either way don't learn a damn thing except maybe 1 time out of 50 at best.

>>Majebrad>>make skinning easier for non-rangers to at least make some profit hunting things that don't drop boxes in the 50 to 150 skinning range based on player combat progression.

Take a survey and you will find that most Rangers have pretty much given up trying to make a profit on things at their level using arrange. You can't arrange skins at your level, you have to underhunt for that. And since you cant arrange anything until 100 ranks, half the range you specify is a non-sequitir anyway.

~~~Krin

Grungy, regardless of ranks, ill never be able to hit every enemy at melee at once (as dammisak said he planned on doing for barbs), fire 2 arrows at once, decrease loading rt as far down as you, train down metalic armors as far down as you, roar and scare people out of hiding, resist magic as well, etc.

-Constatine

>>Grungy>>As to rangers not having a good selection of critters to learn from? Take that up with your guild guru and the critter gurus. The problem rangers have with learning skinning is one that stems from a lack of appropriately difficult creatures, not true faults in the way rangers learn skinning.

<chuckle> And you do the same. There ... everyone wins!

~~~Krin

>>Grungy, regardless of ranks, ill never be able to hit every enemy at melee at once (as dammisak said he planned on doing for barbs), fire 2 arrows at once, decrease loading rt as far down as you, train down metalic armors as far down as you, roar and scare people out of hiding, resist magic as well, etc.

You want to hit everything at melee then learn to face the next critter. You want to stick two arrows in something, then do it the way I do it now, one arrow at a time. You want to load a bow as fast as I do, then hold an arrow in your hand instead of keeping them in your quiver. You want to resist magic like I do, train you stats and gain more circles.

All these things you mention, the results of them can be achieved simply by doing an action more often or by training. This is not the case for skinning. No matter how many pelts I skin I will not be able to match the results rangers get. This is the equivalant of restricting the higher level critital hits with weapons to barbarians only. A trophy pelt is the skinning equivalent of an Apoc or Cataclysmic strike.

Grungy

Is grinding being opened to all?

~Daergoth

Yes,grinding is being opened up to all.

Drachus

:flails:

I dont give a hoot about the monetary gains of arrange.My concern is for tanning and only tanning.Let move this thread back on that tracka,d move any other concerns regarding arrange to another thread.


Drachus

So, top rangers can get the best trophy skins for tanning? Again, so what? I buy my lockpicks from a thief. Want to tan better, get the best skins from a ranger. Again, it's a guild ability, one of the few rangers have. It detracts nothing from what anyone else can do, and only allows rangers to do something a little bit better. If you want plate, go to a paladin. You want a weapon, go to a barbarian. You want the best tannable skins, go to an experienced ranger. Want something enchanted ... etc. You get the point. Nothing is broken at all. This whole thing strikes me simply as inter-guild whining and my patience for it has ended. Good bye. -- Ranger Fengreve