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So I've been casting with chaos symbiosis to train aug/util/ward with basic difficulty spells and I've noticed that if I continue raising the mana amount at the rate I have been then I'll cap the spells before I cap the skills.
Naturally, I thought I'd just move up to intermediate difficulty spells and train that way once that happened, but I noticed that I can cast both difficulties of spell with the chaos symb at the same mana, and they both teach the same. I haven't tested this with advanced spells, because my guild doesn't have access to spells from all 3 skills in that difficulty tier.
Scrolls are an option, but from my testing symbs + sorcery = an unusually high backlash rate. This makes sense, the difficulty is higher so the backlash chance is higher. However, from what I've read it seems like this is more dangerous than was intended. There is no analogous scroll to bridge the gap, either.
As a WM, I could do grounding field for warding and fortress of ice for utility, but there's no advanced augmentation spell that can be cast with a symb. The only non-signature bard spell would be nexus, which is also utility so that doesn't help. I suppose I could use stat symbs to train aug vicariously, but that still leaves the problem of utility.
Can you release FOI? Seems like I couldn't repeatedly cast that without the instability, much like repeated casts of ETF, you have to close the fissure or it just won't stack anymore and won't train. I expect the same is true of nexus, and don't know if I can even cast that in the same room as an ETF anyway. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Will basic spells with symbs carry me all the way to 1750 skill, or am I gonna eventually be stuck with magical research as my only viable option for training?
One last question, does Dispel train utility when you cast on a creature? It seems like it should be debilitation, though I could understand utility when you cast on yourself.
Thanks for any information you guys can offer.
First of all, you should be aware that there is a symbiosis more difficult than chaos: the stat symbiosis. You will need some feats to learn one: Symbiotic Research and at least one of Mental Matrices or Physical Matrices. I have used Resolve (+Discipline) to good effect. Keep in mind that it will not stack with your current stat-raising spells but it may stack with things like that stat rings.
>>The only non-signature bard spell would be nexus, which is also utility so that doesn't help.
As a Bard, I am confused. We have lots of non-signature spells. Were you looking for one of a particular difficulty for a particular skill? Check out the elanthipedia page below. Anything not bolded is non-signature.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Bard_spells
As for your other questions, I have a hard time answering as I am not a WM. Hopefully one will step in. What I can say is that I know a few who are 150+ and have not complained, so it seems possible. Also in my experience with Bard and Moon Mage, some spells can teach differently than others and in unpredictable ways. For example, Shadowling and SM are both standard Utility spells but Shadowling teaches better. So be sure to experiment.
- Navesi
>>The only non-signature bard spell would be nexus, which is also utility so that doesn't help.
As a Bard, I am confused. We have lots of non-signature spells. Were you looking for one of a particular difficulty for a particular skill? Check out the elanthipedia page below. Anything not bolded is non-signature.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Bard_spells
As for your other questions, I have a hard time answering as I am not a WM. Hopefully one will step in. What I can say is that I know a few who are 150+ and have not complained, so it seems possible. Also in my experience with Bard and Moon Mage, some spells can teach differently than others and in unpredictable ways. For example, Shadowling and SM are both standard Utility spells but Shadowling teaches better. So be sure to experiment.
- Navesi
For starters, it isn't intended to use basic/intro spells to train to cap. Symbiosis can stretch things a very long way (especially the non-chaos options) however at a certain point you'll need a more challenging spell.
As for experience, it boils down to difficulty of cast. If the cast attempt challenges your skill, you'll learn. Either by symbiosis or harder spells, for training it's all about balancing mana cost against exp gain.
Another option you do have, if you're either in a gap between a higher tier spell, or in a guild like Empaths, that lack a high skill utility option is RESEARCH. While I don't use it overmuch myself, with the use of Gauge Flow via memorized or learned scroll, you can access the Research system for a cast-free chunk of EXP after a window of time. The pedia has a lot more on Research if that sounds like a good way to go.
Samsaren
As for experience, it boils down to difficulty of cast. If the cast attempt challenges your skill, you'll learn. Either by symbiosis or harder spells, for training it's all about balancing mana cost against exp gain.
Another option you do have, if you're either in a gap between a higher tier spell, or in a guild like Empaths, that lack a high skill utility option is RESEARCH. While I don't use it overmuch myself, with the use of Gauge Flow via memorized or learned scroll, you can access the Research system for a cast-free chunk of EXP after a window of time. The pedia has a lot more on Research if that sounds like a good way to go.
Samsaren
>>As a Bard, I am confused. We have lots of non-signature spells.
I'm referring specifically to advanced difficulty, non-signature spells that can be cast with a symbiosis (not cyclic, ritual, TM, or debil)
I understand that it's not intended to train to cap with basic difficulty spells, which is why I was surprised that there's no difference in learning when casting basic vs intermediate spells at the same mana with the same symbiosis. It's like the only difference in the two difficulties is the minimum prep, but I digress.
The problem lies with a lack of advanced/esoteric spells available in game. Yes, using a stat symb is more difficult, I just don't know that it'd train all the way to cap. If it doesn't, then the same problem exists due to a lack of high difficulty spells which can be cast with symbiosis.
Research is an option, though it is incredibly slow compared to learning from casting, and also can't be done in combat and while performing other specific actions. It's really the worst option IMO.
Still looking for an answer on the dispel/FOI questions.
I'm referring specifically to advanced difficulty, non-signature spells that can be cast with a symbiosis (not cyclic, ritual, TM, or debil)
I understand that it's not intended to train to cap with basic difficulty spells, which is why I was surprised that there's no difference in learning when casting basic vs intermediate spells at the same mana with the same symbiosis. It's like the only difference in the two difficulties is the minimum prep, but I digress.
The problem lies with a lack of advanced/esoteric spells available in game. Yes, using a stat symb is more difficult, I just don't know that it'd train all the way to cap. If it doesn't, then the same problem exists due to a lack of high difficulty spells which can be cast with symbiosis.
Research is an option, though it is incredibly slow compared to learning from casting, and also can't be done in combat and while performing other specific actions. It's really the worst option IMO.
Still looking for an answer on the dispel/FOI questions.
>>I'm referring specifically to advanced difficulty, non-signature spells that can be cast with a symbiosis (not cyclic, ritual, TM, or debil)
When you say advanced, do you mean the 250-1000 range? Yes, there's just Nexus at that level. There are several at the 80-800 range.
How close are you to capping your skills? I'm not doubting the potential for difficulty, I just have yet to hear anybody complain about it so I imagine if the problem exists, it's probably at very high levels.
- Navesi
When you say advanced, do you mean the 250-1000 range? Yes, there's just Nexus at that level. There are several at the 80-800 range.
How close are you to capping your skills? I'm not doubting the potential for difficulty, I just have yet to hear anybody complain about it so I imagine if the problem exists, it's probably at very high levels.
- Navesi
<<I was surprised that there's no difference in learning when casting basic vs intermediate spells at the same mana with the same symbiosis. It's like the only difference in the two difficulties is the minimum prep, but I digress.>>
That might actually be less of a digression than you think. The difference in minimum prep may very well explain the fact that you're not learning more from the more difficult spell when casting at the same mana level. If two spells have the same maximum mana level but different minimum levels, by casting them at the same mana value you're actually casting lower on the power (or difficulty) curve for the one with the higher minimum prep. To conjure an example for illustrative purposes, let's say Spell A has a mana range from 1-100 and Spell B is 50-100. You decide to cast both of them with 60 mana. For Spell A, this is going to be 60% of the way up the spell's potential range of difficulties. For Spell B, however, it's only 20% of the way up. So even if Spell B is nominally more difficult than Spell A, you may not actually be executing a more difficult cast this way. Note that I haven't actually studied it to confirm that this is true, I'm sort of speculating here. And of course this all falls right apart if the mana level you're casting at is the spell's maximum anyway.
Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor
That might actually be less of a digression than you think. The difference in minimum prep may very well explain the fact that you're not learning more from the more difficult spell when casting at the same mana level. If two spells have the same maximum mana level but different minimum levels, by casting them at the same mana value you're actually casting lower on the power (or difficulty) curve for the one with the higher minimum prep. To conjure an example for illustrative purposes, let's say Spell A has a mana range from 1-100 and Spell B is 50-100. You decide to cast both of them with 60 mana. For Spell A, this is going to be 60% of the way up the spell's potential range of difficulties. For Spell B, however, it's only 20% of the way up. So even if Spell B is nominally more difficult than Spell A, you may not actually be executing a more difficult cast this way. Note that I haven't actually studied it to confirm that this is true, I'm sort of speculating here. And of course this all falls right apart if the mana level you're casting at is the spell's maximum anyway.
Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor
Thanks for that explanation Karthor, that does make some sense. Since we're getting into numbers here, I'm casting at 80 mana for both basic and intermediate difficulty spells with the chaos symbiosis at ~1100 skill. So with your hypothesis, casting the basic spell (range 15-100 mana) would be at 76% power, and casting the intermediate spell at 80 mana (range 30-100 mana) would be at 71% power. This makes sense, especially considering I never backfire on basic spells at that mana, and after about 20 casts I did barely backfire once on the intermediate cast.
So then, it would follow that intermediate spells DO teach very slightly better than basic spells. If I keep climbing mana at the rate of ranks I have been, I can expect to cap at ~1500 skill. Intermediate spells might carry me to 1750, but I guess I've got some time until then.
I tried dispel with a symb yesterday and it didn't work. I don't know if it didn't train utility because I cast it at a critter (possibly debil when cast at something other than yourself?), or because it didn't use the symb, or because the critter didn't have anything to dispel. Regardless, it's a non-starter for my training purposes.
My original question about FOI still stands, if anyone knows. I can't find anyone who actually has that spell.
So then, it would follow that intermediate spells DO teach very slightly better than basic spells. If I keep climbing mana at the rate of ranks I have been, I can expect to cap at ~1500 skill. Intermediate spells might carry me to 1750, but I guess I've got some time until then.
I tried dispel with a symb yesterday and it didn't work. I don't know if it didn't train utility because I cast it at a critter (possibly debil when cast at something other than yourself?), or because it didn't use the symb, or because the critter didn't have anything to dispel. Regardless, it's a non-starter for my training purposes.
My original question about FOI still stands, if anyone knows. I can't find anyone who actually has that spell.
