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Right now there are two major problems with someone staying permanently unguilded ... TDPs and concentration. Now either of these aren't that big a deal in TF or Plat, but they are in Prime.
That said, how about a non-guild called, oh, a Generalist. They need 2-3 ranks/circle in ~1/3 of the four skillsets they can train and off they go. So, would be something like 3 ranks, top two survivals, 2 ranks, next two, 1 rank, in 5 and 6. Weapons, 3 ranks, top two, 2 ranks, next two and MO or Parry must be in the top four. Armor, 3 ranks top armor, 2 ranks second. Lore, 3 ranks top lore, 2 ranks second. That's it. Leave it flat, without the dropoffs at 10th and 30th, but also without any specific reqs other than MO/Parry.
Big catch, they can't keep those ranks if they join a normal guild. What I've seen with a lot of the folks who want to play permanent commoners ... they don't want to specialize. With this 'guild' they don't have to, and actually can't, but get the TDPs and Concentration needed to keep going in DR. That's the issue right now with commoners. If they somehow get the TDPs and Concentration up, then join a guild, its massively unbalancing becaue they get even more those first circles.
Although the alternative, if harder to code, is that the person who'd been a Generalist could join a guild, but they wouldn't get any TDPs until they passed their circle as a Generalist. That way they wouldn't be double dipping. (Although starting their 100+ TDPs at their Generalist circle plus whatever factor is used to determine that start point would be even more incentive to not abuse this situation.)
According to the last post, permanent commoners stay that way because of remaining flexible. Now Barbarians can't learn magic skills, Paladins can't learn to steal and Empaths can't hunt (Well, Barbs and Paladins CAN get these skills, but you know what I mean, makes life a little difficult.) note that Empaths can learn weapon skills however.
Now, therefore the Bards, Traders, Rangers, Moonmages, Warrior mages and Thieves can learn all the skills a commoner can learn - and a few have some extra semi or fully unique skills to boot.
Therefore in my view the argument is simple: You want to learn what you like? Go for it! And when your skills that you've learned allow you to progress in your guild, fantastic! Here's a few extra TDP's and concentration for you!
I've not seen any directions that force a player to power-circle. Quite frankly I don't play that way, being one of those 'generalists' - only taken me a year to get Yurong to reach 10th circle, maybe he'll reach 12th by the end of 2005 if I'm lucky (now Yurong is constantly train skills - just not the ones that advance him in the guild.)
So to those who profess the need to create a 'generalist' guild in order to get access to TDP's and concentration I say this: You want those? There's a whole plethora of guilds listed above that can learn the skills a commoner can, you want those extras? Guess you'll have to suffer the indignity of joining one of those fine institutions. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with those who think of mere 'power-gamer' demands.
Of course, if you want all your skills to be learned at secondary rate and not suffer a tertiary skill-set, I'm afraid the cost is those circling TDP's and concentration.
Now if there's other reasons why there remain permanent commoners, I'll take those reasons of their merits and consider the proposal.
Now, therefore the Bards, Traders, Rangers, Moonmages, Warrior mages and Thieves can learn all the skills a commoner can learn - and a few have some extra semi or fully unique skills to boot.
Therefore in my view the argument is simple: You want to learn what you like? Go for it! And when your skills that you've learned allow you to progress in your guild, fantastic! Here's a few extra TDP's and concentration for you!
I've not seen any directions that force a player to power-circle. Quite frankly I don't play that way, being one of those 'generalists' - only taken me a year to get Yurong to reach 10th circle, maybe he'll reach 12th by the end of 2005 if I'm lucky (now Yurong is constantly train skills - just not the ones that advance him in the guild.)
So to those who profess the need to create a 'generalist' guild in order to get access to TDP's and concentration I say this: You want those? There's a whole plethora of guilds listed above that can learn the skills a commoner can, you want those extras? Guess you'll have to suffer the indignity of joining one of those fine institutions. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with those who think of mere 'power-gamer' demands.
Of course, if you want all your skills to be learned at secondary rate and not suffer a tertiary skill-set, I'm afraid the cost is those circling TDP's and concentration.
Now if there's other reasons why there remain permanent commoners, I'll take those reasons of their merits and consider the proposal.
>and a few have some extra semi or fully unique skills to boot.
Actually all guilds have unique skills and advantages. That's the point of joining a guild. This character would get no advantages or special skills. None. Not even being able to use medium shields or forage careful, like a normal survival secondary.
>Of course, if you want all your skills to be learned at secondary rate and not suffer a tertiary skill-set
You're looking at not having two skill sets being tert as the only disadvantage. Not having a primary skill set and not having any special abilities at all is really painful. Even a hunting trader is a little better off just because they can bring a caravan along to spook and/or use speculate coin. This isn't to mention often being able to afford the best possible arms and armor without really hurting.
>You want those? There's a whole plethora of guilds listed above that can learn the skills a commoner can, you want those extras?
What extras? TDPs and Concentration are the things that every guild gets, without exception and without variance. Those aren't extras, those are the defaults.
Actually all guilds have unique skills and advantages. That's the point of joining a guild. This character would get no advantages or special skills. None. Not even being able to use medium shields or forage careful, like a normal survival secondary.
>Of course, if you want all your skills to be learned at secondary rate and not suffer a tertiary skill-set
You're looking at not having two skill sets being tert as the only disadvantage. Not having a primary skill set and not having any special abilities at all is really painful. Even a hunting trader is a little better off just because they can bring a caravan along to spook and/or use speculate coin. This isn't to mention often being able to afford the best possible arms and armor without really hurting.
>You want those? There's a whole plethora of guilds listed above that can learn the skills a commoner can, you want those extras?
What extras? TDPs and Concentration are the things that every guild gets, without exception and without variance. Those aren't extras, those are the defaults.
<<Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with those who think of mere 'power-gamer' demands.>>
With all due respect what exactly are you talking about? Any "power-gamer" as you call it worth his salt that I know of would laugh at the idea of remaining a commoner permanently. You don't have ready access to one of the skill-sets, magic, and you have no primary skills. If you think being well-rounded by being secondary in everything is a huge advantage, it's really not and you're sorely mistaken, not on the higher end of the game.
Bottom line is this, at higher levels of ranks stats play a huge roll in everything. At 300 ranks of any melee weapon, unless you spend every tdp gained by those ranks on agility you'll hit almost nothing. Even if you did, without the strength to back it up you'll do almost no damage, and learn no experience from it, not to mention pass out from fatigue because of no stamina. Oh, and if you get hit, even in capped forged armor or better, forget it. The same goes for strength in swimming, agility and int in origami, etc. etc.
I honestly don't think it's a great idea either. But, to say that it's an idea for the power-gamer is naive. Something should be done in the sense of playability, as right now it's very difficult at higher skill ranks, and gets more difficult the further along you go. Oh, and no gweths either, so if you need/want help, or just want to talk, tough.
With all due respect what exactly are you talking about? Any "power-gamer" as you call it worth his salt that I know of would laugh at the idea of remaining a commoner permanently. You don't have ready access to one of the skill-sets, magic, and you have no primary skills. If you think being well-rounded by being secondary in everything is a huge advantage, it's really not and you're sorely mistaken, not on the higher end of the game.
Bottom line is this, at higher levels of ranks stats play a huge roll in everything. At 300 ranks of any melee weapon, unless you spend every tdp gained by those ranks on agility you'll hit almost nothing. Even if you did, without the strength to back it up you'll do almost no damage, and learn no experience from it, not to mention pass out from fatigue because of no stamina. Oh, and if you get hit, even in capped forged armor or better, forget it. The same goes for strength in swimming, agility and int in origami, etc. etc.
I honestly don't think it's a great idea either. But, to say that it's an idea for the power-gamer is naive. Something should be done in the sense of playability, as right now it's very difficult at higher skill ranks, and gets more difficult the further along you go. Oh, and no gweths either, so if you need/want help, or just want to talk, tough.
> as right now it's very difficult at higher skill ranks, and gets more difficult the further along you go. Oh, and no gweths either, so if you need/want help, or just want to talk, tough.
Yup, that's why I brought it up. As a way to keep going without any special abilities. Although in TF, it is a lot more viable because you have chat and can work skills enough to get the TDPs from ranking, no matter how boring.
Yup, that's why I brought it up. As a way to keep going without any special abilities. Although in TF, it is a lot more viable because you have chat and can work skills enough to get the TDPs from ranking, no matter how boring.
I've mentioned it before in passing and I'll say it again with a little more detail. Why not set stats to be trained like skills, by doing them. For every pulse of weapon skill, you get X tdps put towards the stats that are figured into the weapon use. Then you get the TDPs from doing what you like to do and don't have to worry about circling to get them or even being in a guild. This also helps noobs who don't have a clue which stats they really use. I know I wasted alot of TDPs on my first characters because I thought one stat would help me when I actually needed another.
So then a commoner can advance their stats while not needing to join a guild and no other fancy system being put into place. TDPs aren't waisted on stats we don't really need.
Thinking first off it doesn't seem that hard to code. Maybe a small system that watches what stats are checked for each action and how much they wiegh in and then gives the proper percentage of TDP to each skill. Actually, saying it I see how it could be a bit more complicated than that....but still not beyond any existing systems.
So then a commoner can advance their stats while not needing to join a guild and no other fancy system being put into place. TDPs aren't waisted on stats we don't really need.
Thinking first off it doesn't seem that hard to code. Maybe a small system that watches what stats are checked for each action and how much they wiegh in and then gives the proper percentage of TDP to each skill. Actually, saying it I see how it could be a bit more complicated than that....but still not beyond any existing systems.
<< I've mentioned it before in passing and I'll say it again with a little more detail. Why not set stats to be trained like skills, by doing them.
Nice idea, but far too late in DR's development for a change of that magnitude.
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
PSA - Sakhar's definition of RP is erroneous
Nice idea, but far too late in DR's development for a change of that magnitude.
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
PSA - Sakhar's definition of RP is erroneous
