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Just a general request to the powers that be to please fix TM xp.
It's silly hard to train (at least for a MM. I hear it's a little better when you can hit multiple targets per cast)
I know there is a big magic revamp to come, but those take time and this is extremely frustrating right now. I wouldn't object to a band aid.
I mean my evasion has caught my TM. It passed it for a little while. TM is in the lead by two ranks right now. But that sorta shows how messed up it is.
Done rambling. Just please. Fix.
-Serc
"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"
I know it was said that a fix was not going to be put in because it would only be a couple of months until the rewrite.
That was last year. It might be time to put in a fix.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
That was last year. It might be time to put in a fix.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
Is TM that much harder to learn than any other primary weapon? Training weapons on Hanryu (all secondary) can be like pulling teeth as is. It takes me on average 130 minutes to move 4 weapons from 0 to 25 in a constant critter stream at >250 ranks under the soft cap.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
Actually, no. I did not realize it took that long for a weapon prime to move their weapon skill. I was really comparing the learning rate to my other magic skills. It takes twice as long to move TM to mind locked than it does to move any of my other four magic skills to mind locked. I like to lock one skill and then just move on to something else. I would say it takes 1.5 to 2.0 hours to mind lock TM using critters that are good for 100 more ranks before the soft cap.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
"I would say it takes 1.5 to 2.0 hours to mind lock TM using critters that are good for 100 more ranks before the soft cap."
That seems very wonky to me. What ranks and what creatures? With a steady supply of creatures I can lock TM in about 1/2 hour. I do find TM slower to lock than melee weapons
That seems very wonky to me. What ranks and what creatures? With a steady supply of creatures I can lock TM in about 1/2 hour. I do find TM slower to lock than melee weapons
Maybe I'm using the wrong critter. I'm hunting Ghoul Crows out on Aesry. They have a great gen rate. I just locked TM there and it took me 80 minutes. I'm a Moon Mage and have 205 in TM. I've tried the 3rd tier Snow Goblins with similar results. I prep, target, wait three seconds and cast bolt.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
Dierik
You also see a plovik leaf, a burly snow goblin, a chipped marble mortar, a chipped marble mortar and a grimy marble pestle. Look out! The snow goblins are taking up alchemy.
"Is TM that much harder to learn than any other primary weapon? Training weapons on Hanryu (all secondary) can be like pulling teeth as is. It takes me on average 130 minutes to move 4 weapons from 0 to 25 in a constant critter stream at >250 ranks under the soft cap."
I can't answer that for sure honestly. I don't have a barb with even close to similar weapon scores. (or even one activated right now)
I do have access to a ranger of similar skill and her weapons are a breeze compared to serc's TM, though like you said, that's comping a secondary skill to a primary and I want to try and present my complaint without such iffy comparisons.
I really do think something is off and I'd prefer not to get myself ignored by bringing up things that won't scale against each other.
It's not even a matter of getting to locked. My TM rarely gets above 10/34 and almost never reaches 20/34. Locked isn't the goal I'm looking for (but wouldn't cry if I could get it).
I guess what I would like is to be able to train enough TM in combat that as long as I consistently train it my evasion, a secondary skill, has no hope of catching it.
That's not really a perfect wording, but it's the best I can come up with. That I'm training both, but a secondary skill is outpacing a primary.
-Serc
"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"
I can't answer that for sure honestly. I don't have a barb with even close to similar weapon scores. (or even one activated right now)
I do have access to a ranger of similar skill and her weapons are a breeze compared to serc's TM, though like you said, that's comping a secondary skill to a primary and I want to try and present my complaint without such iffy comparisons.
I really do think something is off and I'd prefer not to get myself ignored by bringing up things that won't scale against each other.
It's not even a matter of getting to locked. My TM rarely gets above 10/34 and almost never reaches 20/34. Locked isn't the goal I'm looking for (but wouldn't cry if I could get it).
I guess what I would like is to be able to train enough TM in combat that as long as I consistently train it my evasion, a secondary skill, has no hope of catching it.
That's not really a perfect wording, but it's the best I can come up with. That I'm training both, but a secondary skill is outpacing a primary.
-Serc
"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"
The intention is that TM learns roughly at pace with a bow, assuming all else is equal.
Since TM has a very definitive relative measure for performance, I'm not comfortable doing major work on its experience calc until we're in the wake of the combat rewrite.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Since TM has a very definitive relative measure for performance, I'm not comfortable doing major work on its experience calc until we're in the wake of the combat rewrite.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
"The intention is that TM learns roughly at pace with a bow, assuming all else is equal.
Since TM has a very definitive relative measure for performance, I'm not comfortable doing major work on its experience calc until we're in the wake of the combat rewrite."
Fair enough I suppose.
When that time comes, I know I and a bunch of other mage players would like to get back to using our guild spells for TM instead of machine gunning bolt (which is the way to train TM according to current training wisdom.)
-Serc
"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"
Since TM has a very definitive relative measure for performance, I'm not comfortable doing major work on its experience calc until we're in the wake of the combat rewrite."
Fair enough I suppose.
When that time comes, I know I and a bunch of other mage players would like to get back to using our guild spells for TM instead of machine gunning bolt (which is the way to train TM according to current training wisdom.)
-Serc
"We, the disenfranchised men and women of Elanthia do, by the publishing of this accord, cast off the oppressive yoke of all law and nations and choose for ourselves a path of loyalty unto ourselves"
It's not that TM learns too slow.. it's that it you can only learn it feasibly on a non-CL-AOE-room-spam class by spamming bolt.
All it needs is a slight tweak. It would help a lot of casters in the undefined time until the new combat changes.
Less base exp granted per cast, more exp rewarded for damage. Just a small tweak please before the combat system, and it's not too late to be rewritten then.
All it needs is a slight tweak. It would help a lot of casters in the undefined time until the new combat changes.
Less base exp granted per cast, more exp rewarded for damage. Just a small tweak please before the combat system, and it's not too late to be rewritten then.
I for one would actually like to learn the skill reasonably by using the skill as intended by fully preparing and casting spells. I really don't enjoy having to spam cast spells at min-prep in order to learn with some semblance of efficiency.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
>I for one would actually like to learn the skill reasonably by using the skill as intended by fully preparing and casting spells. I really don't enjoy having to spam cast spells at min-prep in order to learn with some semblance of efficiency.
I agree. Id love high mana, full target kill shots to be worth something when it comes to experience for single target spells.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I agree. Id love high mana, full target kill shots to be worth something when it comes to experience for single target spells.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>Really, it sounds like TM learning is where it is suppose to be. Wait, you are learning other magic faster than TM? Hmmmmm, maybe magic learning needs to be looked at? Sounds like magic learning needs nerfing.
Silly trader, we all know contract exp is too low.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Silly trader, we all know contract exp is too low.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
>The intention is that TM learns roughly at pace with a bow, assuming all else is equal.
I use both bow and TM with only 7 ranks separating the skills. Agility and disc are equal. Hunting young gryphons, I can lock bow well before I an lock TM with one fully aimed snipe for each fully targeted shot with STRA.
My constraint on TM is mana. Harness exceeds TM by 90ish ranks, yet I have to pick the best mana room in the hunting area to be able to put enough mana into the spell to even do decent damage to the things. I could certainly cast the spell with more mana, but would run out of harness long before I locked the skill.
Spamming BOLT against a weaker opponent allows me to learn TM about at the same rate as bow. But doing it the "right" way, this is not possible.
-pete
I use both bow and TM with only 7 ranks separating the skills. Agility and disc are equal. Hunting young gryphons, I can lock bow well before I an lock TM with one fully aimed snipe for each fully targeted shot with STRA.
My constraint on TM is mana. Harness exceeds TM by 90ish ranks, yet I have to pick the best mana room in the hunting area to be able to put enough mana into the spell to even do decent damage to the things. I could certainly cast the spell with more mana, but would run out of harness long before I locked the skill.
Spamming BOLT against a weaker opponent allows me to learn TM about at the same rate as bow. But doing it the "right" way, this is not possible.
-pete
>>Spamming BOLT against a weaker opponent allows me to learn TM about at the same rate as bow.
This was my experience.
The learning rate (at maximum) does not need to be fixed, though obviously the "optimal" way of training right now is silly. Dishing out damage should be the optimal way to learn.
Right now the Moon Mage place on the "combat pet totem pole" is the part that's sunk into the earth to lower the pole's center of gravity.
-Armifer de Dragonrealms
This was my experience.
The learning rate (at maximum) does not need to be fixed, though obviously the "optimal" way of training right now is silly. Dishing out damage should be the optimal way to learn.
Right now the Moon Mage place on the "combat pet totem pole" is the part that's sunk into the earth to lower the pole's center of gravity.
-Armifer de Dragonrealms
>Unfortunately, STRA isn't the best spell. Also, player-made bows are crazy good.
True. Unfortunately, I don't have other options, as DEVI is pretty much the same as STRA. I am really hoping that something will be done to not make it so the spell so completely drives the learning rate with TM, since you can always buy a better bow or ammo, but you are pretty limited when it comes to what you can do to gain new spells.
-pete
True. Unfortunately, I don't have other options, as DEVI is pretty much the same as STRA. I am really hoping that something will be done to not make it so the spell so completely drives the learning rate with TM, since you can always buy a better bow or ammo, but you are pretty limited when it comes to what you can do to gain new spells.
-pete
I've been sitting in south barricade celps spamming BOLT exclusively for 40 minutes straight now and have gotten to 24/34 as a magic secondary. Since they completely ignore Pyre, BOLT and STRA are my only options unless I can find a Fire Shard or Gar Zeng scroll. Unfortunately, I think I'm just going to have to forsake TM until then (or until Magic 3.0 gives bards a multishot TM spell [here's hoping!])
Just thought I'd chime in with my support for upping TM exp learning.
-=Issus=-
Just thought I'd chime in with my support for upping TM exp learning.
-=Issus=-
Spamming bolt at low prep wasn't working for me. Now, I don't exactly have super TM for the area I'm hunting in. That means snapping bolt at low prep whiffs, a lot. My experience has been that fully targeting footman's strike at higher mana teaches much better. Of course, this is also a tert skill for me so it's a different scenario.
After 21 minutes in dobeks, prepping FsT at 12, harnessing 5 twice (to conserve mana)while waiting for full target:
PM 363 21/34
Harness 373 26/34
TM 230 30/34
I don't have a bow skill trained to those ranks to test against. I do have an edged weapon in the same skill area. After 9 minutes in dobeks:
2HE 228 30/34
So, yes, it took twice as long to work a tert skill to the same mindstate as a secondary skill. I'm sure there are other things I haven't factored in, but that's it at a basic level.
To be honest, I never really considered 20 minutes to be an inordinate amount of time to spend on a skill, so this scenario doesn't really bother me. Forty minutes, over an hour....yeah, I'd be irritated, too.
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
After 21 minutes in dobeks, prepping FsT at 12, harnessing 5 twice (to conserve mana)while waiting for full target:
PM 363 21/34
Harness 373 26/34
TM 230 30/34
I don't have a bow skill trained to those ranks to test against. I do have an edged weapon in the same skill area. After 9 minutes in dobeks:
2HE 228 30/34
So, yes, it took twice as long to work a tert skill to the same mindstate as a secondary skill. I'm sure there are other things I haven't factored in, but that's it at a basic level.
To be honest, I never really considered 20 minutes to be an inordinate amount of time to spend on a skill, so this scenario doesn't really bother me. Forty minutes, over an hour....yeah, I'd be irritated, too.
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
It doesn't take 20 seconds to fully target. In the time it takes to harness 5 two times (6 seconds) the target has fully completed. It's actually between 10-12 seconds from prep to cast.
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
Sorry for the double post. I meant to say that yes, this still probably accounts for the difference as I'm getting 2-3 swings of the 2HE in the time it takes to cast FsT once. Just not 20 seconds worth.
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
~Kattena
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
As a cleric, I tend to find snap casting HORN to work the best for training TM (when targeting for single critter), with higher damage working better than grazing hits. I can typically lock TM in 15 minutes as long as there is a consistent spawn of critters (which ends up with me running around like a madman), since mana is less of a problem.
On the other hand, spamming BOLT in the same 15 minutes teaches horribly, even when prepping above the min (10-18/34). This is with almost 700 TM, so primary learning pulses are taking maybe 1/34 per pulse.
On the other hand, spamming BOLT in the same 15 minutes teaches horribly, even when prepping above the min (10-18/34). This is with almost 700 TM, so primary learning pulses are taking maybe 1/34 per pulse.
