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Reply<<Who exactly is encouraging you to do this? No one is fully capped. Does this mean no one is operating under 'maximum effectiveness?' A lot of this boils down to perceptions and that's it. If you choose to go beyond minimum requirements, that's completely on you. I see no factual evidence being presented to convince me every character is now a carbon copy of the next.>>
Discussing DR as though it were a single-player game is disingenuous and not a very constructive way to approach this discussion. I find it difficult to believe that you couldn't identify the context of 'maximum effectiveness' in that post and am not particularly interested in defending the straw man you set up at the end.
Now by your same logic, there is nothing wrong with directly buying TDPs for simucoins - after all, you won't be fully capped, so what's the harm? It's not directly affecting any other player, either!
The system as it stands absolutely skews the stat-related aspects of the game (including the norm around which things must be balanced) further in the favor of people who have an abundance of time to sit and let script runs while they do other activities while also contributing significantly to metagaming behavior. Those two facts alone make it worth reconsidering whether it's really where it should be.
To be fair, you can buy stats/skills/etc for RL cash (albeit outside of Simu-sponsored venues) and have been able to for years, and staff has shown little to no interest in curbing or forbidding this practice.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>I have accepted that there is a strange correlation between people who train a crapton of skills purely for TDPs and people who think the system should remain untouched in all its greave-swapping zill-playing glory and that trying to talk them around is pointless.
This is what is short sighted. I'm a barbarian. I like melee fighting with weapons...all weapons. I have a total of 3.84 ranks in performance. I have foregone circling to gain ranks in all the skills (defense and offense) I enjoy. It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water to say that I shouldn't gain TDPs by spending my time (and money for a premium subscription) to do what I love to do...train combats. I haven't seen one poster that is opposed to what is being presented that has argued that they are training skills "purely for TDPs". Sure, there are people who do it but so what?
And, by the way, I don't even PVP. I started DR in 1996 on AOL because I thought it was a cool idea. I rolled Rhadyn on a lark -- no idea what a name should be, what skills to train, etc. I hated magic so chose barbarian over paladin but kept wearing plate, trained shield when getting a wooden shield from arbelogs was the way to go, and did everything that pushed me to the back of the barb list of elites. I didn't care because I had my own goals and DR 3.0 allowed me to come back and continue that path. I don't care that Caraamon or Squanto will always be better at forging than me. I don't care if I lose in PVP to a cleric or thief. I want to play the way I want within a game that is thoughtful about the changes they make because, well, humans hate change!
Color me purple but I stopped playing after guild reqs changed way back when and I found myself 200 ranks behind in survivals (which would take years to get when skills actually took forever to train). I'm still not hearing what the harm is in the status quo. And no, no one has said what the REAL problem is. It has to be personal in nature otherwise you wouldn't really care that someone else spends time, money and TDPs (TIME Development Points) in a way that makes you feel it's unfair based on your playing style.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
This is what is short sighted. I'm a barbarian. I like melee fighting with weapons...all weapons. I have a total of 3.84 ranks in performance. I have foregone circling to gain ranks in all the skills (defense and offense) I enjoy. It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water to say that I shouldn't gain TDPs by spending my time (and money for a premium subscription) to do what I love to do...train combats. I haven't seen one poster that is opposed to what is being presented that has argued that they are training skills "purely for TDPs". Sure, there are people who do it but so what?
And, by the way, I don't even PVP. I started DR in 1996 on AOL because I thought it was a cool idea. I rolled Rhadyn on a lark -- no idea what a name should be, what skills to train, etc. I hated magic so chose barbarian over paladin but kept wearing plate, trained shield when getting a wooden shield from arbelogs was the way to go, and did everything that pushed me to the back of the barb list of elites. I didn't care because I had my own goals and DR 3.0 allowed me to come back and continue that path. I don't care that Caraamon or Squanto will always be better at forging than me. I don't care if I lose in PVP to a cleric or thief. I want to play the way I want within a game that is thoughtful about the changes they make because, well, humans hate change!
Color me purple but I stopped playing after guild reqs changed way back when and I found myself 200 ranks behind in survivals (which would take years to get when skills actually took forever to train). I'm still not hearing what the harm is in the status quo. And no, no one has said what the REAL problem is. It has to be personal in nature otherwise you wouldn't really care that someone else spends time, money and TDPs (TIME Development Points) in a way that makes you feel it's unfair based on your playing style.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
<<To be fair, you can buy stats/skills/etc for RL cash (albeit outside of Simu-sponsored venues) and have been able to for years, and staff has shown little to no interest in curbing or forbidding this practice.>>
That's true, and also not something that I would call healthy and wholesome for the game. I suppose if you want to use that as an alternative example that works fine too, the gist is the same. There is nothing inherently wrong with spending more time (scripting random 'useless' skills) to get higher stats, just the same as there is nothing inherently bad about being able to spend money to get more stats (or more than just stats), but when you look at these things in the context of how they impact the game and players within I think it's pretty easy to see some downsides.
<<This is what is short sighted. I'm a barbarian. I like melee fighting with weapons...all weapons. I have a total of 3.84 ranks in performance. I have foregone circling to gain ranks in all the skills (defense and offense) I enjoy.>>
Correct. And you have those ranks, which you enjoy. Ranks. Skill-based game. This portion of your argument has been thoroughly addressed; you do the thing, you get the experience, you gain the ranks, that is your reward for doing the thing.
<<It seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water to say that I shouldn't gain TDPs by spending my time (and money for a premium subscription) to do what I love to do...train combats.>>
There are some people who love to train survivals and lores (vastly less efficient TDP-wise) and basically anything that isn't combat who would like to have words with you on the fairness of not gaining enough TDPs by spending their time and money doing what they love to do.
<< I want to play the way I want within a game that is thoughtful about the changes they make because, well, humans hate change!>>
Sure, and this is not something that should be changed lightly, but it IS worth examining. The end result would, presumably, be balanced with the new system in mind.
<< I'm still not hearing what the harm is in the status quo. And no, no one has said what the REAL problem is. It has to be personal in nature otherwise you wouldn't really care that someone else spends time, money and TDPs (TIME Development Points) in a way that makes you feel it's unfair based on your playing style.>>
They have, if you have chosen to ignore those statements that's kind of on you. It's entirely possible that you play DR without interacting with other players (hell, I barely see anyone myself and have no real intention of Pvping) but that doesn't make the game itself less of a multiplayer experience that must keep these kinds of factors in mind.
Chungus - those are fair assessments and I appreciate your response. I will call out one response specifically though...
<< I'm still not hearing what the harm is in the status quo. And no, no one has said what the REAL problem is. It has to be personal in nature otherwise you wouldn't really care that someone else spends time, money and TDPs (TIME Development Points) in a way that makes you feel it's unfair based on your playing style.>>
>>They have, if you have chosen to ignore those statements that's kind of on you.
No, they haven't. The comments are not stating TRULY the underlying issue they want addressed. People should just come right out and say it for what it is... "I feel I'm being penalized because I RP or sit around or don't want to spend the time others spend hunting or play multiple character instead of just one but still want the same amount of TDPs to spend on stats." That is what I'm looking for, just for someone to be honest about what this is really about. If it wasn't personal, meaning about their specific characters, then I don't understand (as you say). Time Development Points have ALWAYS been about gaining stats based on experience in skills. DR is awesome because it IS a skill based game not experience based (like D&D, WoW or other games where you gain stats automatically -- think about it -- from leveling only). To remove TDPs from experience gained would change this whole dynamic.
As an aside, who do you think has more "stats" in real life, the person that spends his whole life learning the use of a sword or a person who spends her whole life learning to master multiple weapons? I like DR how it is right now because unlike what you are saying about experience in a skill being the end all be all I feel like the things I learn from the skills I train benefit the nuances of the other skills I train.
What you all are proposing has the unintended consequences of everyone circle chasing to ensure they are where they want to be. Why train anything other than what's required for circling if there are no real benefits (who will train slings for example) but tons of detriment (time spent calculated in years)?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
<< I'm still not hearing what the harm is in the status quo. And no, no one has said what the REAL problem is. It has to be personal in nature otherwise you wouldn't really care that someone else spends time, money and TDPs (TIME Development Points) in a way that makes you feel it's unfair based on your playing style.>>
>>They have, if you have chosen to ignore those statements that's kind of on you.
No, they haven't. The comments are not stating TRULY the underlying issue they want addressed. People should just come right out and say it for what it is... "I feel I'm being penalized because I RP or sit around or don't want to spend the time others spend hunting or play multiple character instead of just one but still want the same amount of TDPs to spend on stats." That is what I'm looking for, just for someone to be honest about what this is really about. If it wasn't personal, meaning about their specific characters, then I don't understand (as you say). Time Development Points have ALWAYS been about gaining stats based on experience in skills. DR is awesome because it IS a skill based game not experience based (like D&D, WoW or other games where you gain stats automatically -- think about it -- from leveling only). To remove TDPs from experience gained would change this whole dynamic.
As an aside, who do you think has more "stats" in real life, the person that spends his whole life learning the use of a sword or a person who spends her whole life learning to master multiple weapons? I like DR how it is right now because unlike what you are saying about experience in a skill being the end all be all I feel like the things I learn from the skills I train benefit the nuances of the other skills I train.
What you all are proposing has the unintended consequences of everyone circle chasing to ensure they are where they want to be. Why train anything other than what's required for circling if there are no real benefits (who will train slings for example) but tons of detriment (time spent calculated in years)?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
>>The comments are not stating TRULY the underlying issue they want addressed, blah blah blah
Not even slightly true.
From a game design standpoint.. the current system is broken. The math backs it up. Anyone that argues anything else just enjoys the benefits of a system that currently works better for them.
This isn't about x person being behind y person in stats. It is simply about balance and a system that is broken.
Again, I don't even care about the tdps themselves or how much you gain in x amount of time. They can easily adjust that so it doesn't change a thing -- if they want to!
It is the number of skills per skillset that is the real issue. Balance means that everyone should come to it equally. People that play more by all means should be able to access them faster, and no one is suggesting otherwise. What has been said repeatedly though is that how many skills you are required to train to access them should be changed.
Look at it this way. (the numbers below are not even close to the exact amount.. they just give you an idea of what each skillset offers)
The weapons skillset has 18 skills. That skillset alone, if you train everything, offers ~30,000 tdps. That is going up to the cap. And again.. I don't care about comparisons to different people.. this has nothing to do with individual people and their playstyles or playtime.
The armor skillset has 6 skills. That skillset offers ~10,000 tdps.
In a game where learning rates are heavily skewed by skillset, and guilds are balanced around them as well, one skillset should not offer ~20k more tdps than the other. That is clearly broken.
Even the next highest skillset(with number of skills) only offers ~17,000 tdps.
So if you have access to weapons secondary, or weapons prime, you have a HUGE advantage to tdp gain. ('you' being a general 'you' to a player of any guild that is set up that way.. again, this isn't about player comparisons, it is about tdp gain comparisons between skillsets.)
Trying to claim any otherwise just shows that you either don't understand how skillsets and learning rates work, or you aren't interested in making the game as good as it possibly can be because it currently works for you.
And I have to point out again.. that tdp acquisition and total tdp available and tdp usage are three distinctly separate conversations.
Not even slightly true.
From a game design standpoint.. the current system is broken. The math backs it up. Anyone that argues anything else just enjoys the benefits of a system that currently works better for them.
This isn't about x person being behind y person in stats. It is simply about balance and a system that is broken.
Again, I don't even care about the tdps themselves or how much you gain in x amount of time. They can easily adjust that so it doesn't change a thing -- if they want to!
It is the number of skills per skillset that is the real issue. Balance means that everyone should come to it equally. People that play more by all means should be able to access them faster, and no one is suggesting otherwise. What has been said repeatedly though is that how many skills you are required to train to access them should be changed.
Look at it this way. (the numbers below are not even close to the exact amount.. they just give you an idea of what each skillset offers)
The weapons skillset has 18 skills. That skillset alone, if you train everything, offers ~30,000 tdps. That is going up to the cap. And again.. I don't care about comparisons to different people.. this has nothing to do with individual people and their playstyles or playtime.
The armor skillset has 6 skills. That skillset offers ~10,000 tdps.
In a game where learning rates are heavily skewed by skillset, and guilds are balanced around them as well, one skillset should not offer ~20k more tdps than the other. That is clearly broken.
Even the next highest skillset(with number of skills) only offers ~17,000 tdps.
So if you have access to weapons secondary, or weapons prime, you have a HUGE advantage to tdp gain. ('you' being a general 'you' to a player of any guild that is set up that way.. again, this isn't about player comparisons, it is about tdp gain comparisons between skillsets.)
Trying to claim any otherwise just shows that you either don't understand how skillsets and learning rates work, or you aren't interested in making the game as good as it possibly can be because it currently works for you.
And I have to point out again.. that tdp acquisition and total tdp available and tdp usage are three distinctly separate conversations.
Rhaydn,
Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone. People are going to whine about whatever seems unfair to them regardless. Eventually you've given all the help you can, and if they can't or won't admit it to themselves... it is what it is. It's still up to the GM's. Everything that could be said about this topic has been said. At this point it's just beating a dead horse. Save yourself the time.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone. People are going to whine about whatever seems unfair to them regardless. Eventually you've given all the help you can, and if they can't or won't admit it to themselves... it is what it is. It's still up to the GM's. Everything that could be said about this topic has been said. At this point it's just beating a dead horse. Save yourself the time.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone. People are going to whine about whatever seems unfair to them regardless. Eventually you've given all the help you can, and if they can't or won't admit it to themselves... it is what it is. It's still up to the GM's. Everything that could be said about this topic has been said. At this point it's just beating a dead horse. Save yourself the time.
Which is funny because the GMs are the ones that have said they don't like how it currently exists. So if anyone is whining.. it is those that can't see the problem and demand that it not be fixed.
Which is funny because the GMs are the ones that have said they don't like how it currently exists. So if anyone is whining.. it is those that can't see the problem and demand that it not be fixed.
I see what you're saying, however...
<<"I feel I'm being penalized because I RP or sit around or don't want to spend the time others spend hunting or play multiple character instead of just one but still want the same amount of TDPs to spend on stats">>
That isn't the entirety of the argument, or fully representative of the realities of playing DR. I do know at least two people working from home who have an IMMENSE time advantage over anyone who has a job or family duties to attend to, because they can be logged in and responsive basically all the time. But that doesn't generally bother me - it could be combatted, but I don't think that's necessarily a healthy thing for the game.
What I personally think is not ideal is that, wholly separate from the above point, the current system incentivizes everyone regardless of time invested to train any and all skills that they can keep moving without any regard to whether they actually like that skill or will ever want to use it. That's because doing so makes one better at skills they DO care about, via TDPs. In the pursuit of this advantage, people tend to adopt the bizarre training practices (with armor, weapons, and zills) outlined previously. And on top of that, we have the part of the argument that you identified - letting those people with loads of time double-dip to increase their advantage that much more.
It's nothing personal. The last character I had that was lacking in TDPs was retired in... probably 2007 or earlier. Every one since has abused the current TDP setup and efficient scripting techniques. I completely agree that DR's systems are part of what make it awesome, but gaining TDPs from all skills are not in my mind a crucial part of that dynamic.
<<As an aside, who do you think has more "stats" in real life, the person that spends his whole life learning the use of a sword or a person who spends her whole life learning to master multiple weapons?>>
Neither. In real life one does not generally gain more 'stats' (as an abstract term) by dividing their attention between multiple tasks.
<<What you all are proposing has the unintended consequences of everyone circle chasing to ensure they are where they want to be. Why train anything other than what's required for circling if there are no real benefits (who will train slings for example) but tons of detriment (time spent calculated in years)?>>
Simply put, because their is (or rather should be) a tangible benefit to those skills themselves rather than as a farm for TDPs, including the flexibility of being able to use the skill when it's needed. If you're already doing that, then there's not really any detriment to continuing to train.
And if you'd rather circle-chase and only focus on the handful of skills most important to you? That leaves you more time to actually go out and use those skills or RP without feeling like you're missing out on stat points you could otherwise have by playing zills.
>blah blah blah
Nice.
>It is the number of skills per skillset that is the real issue. Balance means that everyone should come to it equally. People that play more by all means should be able to access them faster, and no one is suggesting otherwise. What has been said repeatedly though is that how many skills you are required to train to access them should be changed.
But not every guild has access to all skills in a specific skillset. EVERYONE has access to all weapons skills (minus Expertise). Skillset placement is not a problem as you pose it. If it was why then are my Inner Fire, Debilitation, Augmentation and Warding skills HIGHER than my highest weapon skill? I'm a barbarian so magic is tertiary to me. I'll answer it for you, because I spend time training it! That's it. Barbarians, Traders and Thieves are closed off to the most skills total in the game. Your "blah blah blah" is making my point actually. If it wasn't about how fast you can gain TDPs then it's a moot point thus negating your statement...
>Again, I don't even care about the tdps themselves or how much you gain in x amount of time.
I call baloney as there is no other reason for the complaints on this. What's stopping you from gaining those ~30K TDPs from training weapons? Nothing. I'm stopped from gaining way more because of skills closed to me based on MY choice of guild.
End game -- any MU should have way more TDPs than a barbarian, trader or thief if they wanted to. Just be honest. I'm still waiting because if it's not about everything I said in my previous post then it's not really about anything at all.
Oh, and I understand how this games works very well. I've got a 20 sheet spreadsheet of my own data and calcs that allow me to maximize my character to achieve my personal goals.
>And I have to point out again.. that tdp acquisition and total tdp available and tdp usage are three distinctly separate conversations.
Yes they are indeed and my stance is that not one of those is broken but as designed by Eric and team back 20 years ago.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Nice.
>It is the number of skills per skillset that is the real issue. Balance means that everyone should come to it equally. People that play more by all means should be able to access them faster, and no one is suggesting otherwise. What has been said repeatedly though is that how many skills you are required to train to access them should be changed.
But not every guild has access to all skills in a specific skillset. EVERYONE has access to all weapons skills (minus Expertise). Skillset placement is not a problem as you pose it. If it was why then are my Inner Fire, Debilitation, Augmentation and Warding skills HIGHER than my highest weapon skill? I'm a barbarian so magic is tertiary to me. I'll answer it for you, because I spend time training it! That's it. Barbarians, Traders and Thieves are closed off to the most skills total in the game. Your "blah blah blah" is making my point actually. If it wasn't about how fast you can gain TDPs then it's a moot point thus negating your statement...
>Again, I don't even care about the tdps themselves or how much you gain in x amount of time.
I call baloney as there is no other reason for the complaints on this. What's stopping you from gaining those ~30K TDPs from training weapons? Nothing. I'm stopped from gaining way more because of skills closed to me based on MY choice of guild.
End game -- any MU should have way more TDPs than a barbarian, trader or thief if they wanted to. Just be honest. I'm still waiting because if it's not about everything I said in my previous post then it's not really about anything at all.
Oh, and I understand how this games works very well. I've got a 20 sheet spreadsheet of my own data and calcs that allow me to maximize my character to achieve my personal goals.
>And I have to point out again.. that tdp acquisition and total tdp available and tdp usage are three distinctly separate conversations.
Yes they are indeed and my stance is that not one of those is broken but as designed by Eric and team back 20 years ago.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
<<Sometimes it's better to just leave it alone. People are going to whine about whatever seems unfair to them regardless. Eventually you've given all the help you can, and if they can't or won't admit it to themselves... >>
At the risk of sounding conflictual, perhaps people (including, in this particular case, the current development team) would be more inclined to agree with you if you stuck with posting things to support your point of view or counter opposing points of view rather than passive-aggressively suggesting what it looks like you're suggesting.
Just a suggestion.
>>But not every guild has access to all skills in a specific skillset.
Each guild trades off 1 skill that is in their primary. Otherwise, the numbers stay as they are.
And having access to weapons is fine, having double the number of skills in a skillset is not.
Also, your magic skills are higher because there are fewer of them to train. This really shouldn't be that confusing for you. The more skills a skillset has, the lower the chance that they will be your highest skills, because you will be spreading out your training time.
>>Barbarians, Traders and Thieves are closed off to the most skills total in the game.
As I have said before, this is definitely a problem, and one that has gotten better in the last few years, but still definitely needs work. It also backs up my point more than yours. :)
>>If it wasn't about how fast you can gain TDPs then it's a moot point thus negating your statement...
It isn't how fast you gain tdps in comparison to other players. It is how fast you gain tdps in comparison of skillset to skillset. Weapons offers by far the largest pool of tdps, and if you are weapons prime or secondary, it offers a much quicker tdp acquisition rate. You can still gain the tdps, but a weapons tert guild will take much longer to earn those tdps than a weapons prime or secondary.
>>I call baloney
Time. There is a finite amount. Also, it is called balance. Time is a factor. It is why there are learning rates. It is why each guild has a primary skillset, and 2 secondary and 2 tert skillsets. It is all about balance. If some guild had 2 primary skillsets, that would be broken right? Can you at least agree with that? That is basically what happens with weapons. It almost counts as two primary skillsets. Or for weapon secondaries, it counts as basically a third secondary skillset just because of how many more skills it offers compared to the others.
That is a problem.
>>End game -- any MU should have way more TDPs than a barbarian, trader or thief if they wanted to.
It isn't about guilds in and of themselves. (though I will not disagree that barbs, traders and thieves should have much better access to the magic skillset.) Basically it seems to come down to.. you feel you deserve to have more tdps in weapons because you got shafted by bad design elsewhere.
>> Eric and team back 20 years ago.
There are plenty of things they designed poorly 20 years ago, or were designed to never go to where they are today. Claiming that it isn't broken now is just silly at best. I mean by that logic you should just be content to get no tdps from magic.. because that was one of their decisions back in the day.
Each guild trades off 1 skill that is in their primary. Otherwise, the numbers stay as they are.
And having access to weapons is fine, having double the number of skills in a skillset is not.
Also, your magic skills are higher because there are fewer of them to train. This really shouldn't be that confusing for you. The more skills a skillset has, the lower the chance that they will be your highest skills, because you will be spreading out your training time.
>>Barbarians, Traders and Thieves are closed off to the most skills total in the game.
As I have said before, this is definitely a problem, and one that has gotten better in the last few years, but still definitely needs work. It also backs up my point more than yours. :)
>>If it wasn't about how fast you can gain TDPs then it's a moot point thus negating your statement...
It isn't how fast you gain tdps in comparison to other players. It is how fast you gain tdps in comparison of skillset to skillset. Weapons offers by far the largest pool of tdps, and if you are weapons prime or secondary, it offers a much quicker tdp acquisition rate. You can still gain the tdps, but a weapons tert guild will take much longer to earn those tdps than a weapons prime or secondary.
>>I call baloney
Time. There is a finite amount. Also, it is called balance. Time is a factor. It is why there are learning rates. It is why each guild has a primary skillset, and 2 secondary and 2 tert skillsets. It is all about balance. If some guild had 2 primary skillsets, that would be broken right? Can you at least agree with that? That is basically what happens with weapons. It almost counts as two primary skillsets. Or for weapon secondaries, it counts as basically a third secondary skillset just because of how many more skills it offers compared to the others.
That is a problem.
>>End game -- any MU should have way more TDPs than a barbarian, trader or thief if they wanted to.
It isn't about guilds in and of themselves. (though I will not disagree that barbs, traders and thieves should have much better access to the magic skillset.) Basically it seems to come down to.. you feel you deserve to have more tdps in weapons because you got shafted by bad design elsewhere.
>> Eric and team back 20 years ago.
There are plenty of things they designed poorly 20 years ago, or were designed to never go to where they are today. Claiming that it isn't broken now is just silly at best. I mean by that logic you should just be content to get no tdps from magic.. because that was one of their decisions back in the day.
LOL
Read the thread in it's entirety. I posted from the start. I'm just over the whiners now. And I'm over the "gimmie gimmie" crap. I'm not feeding this anymore, I'm done. I'd love to see you guys make some sense without those of us who actually train in the thread. Be my guest.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Read the thread in it's entirety. I posted from the start. I'm just over the whiners now. And I'm over the "gimmie gimmie" crap. I'm not feeding this anymore, I'm done. I'd love to see you guys make some sense without those of us who actually train in the thread. Be my guest.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>Rchight: No, they haven't. The comments are not stating TRULY the underlying issue they want addressed. People should just come right out and say it for what it is... "I feel I'm being penalized because I RP or sit around or don't want to spend the time others spend hunting or play multiple character instead of just one but still want the same amount of TDPs to spend on stats." That is what I'm looking for, just for someone to be honest about what this is really about. If it wasn't personal, meaning about their specific characters, then I don't understand (as you say).
It would be nice if we could discuss experience mechanics and/or TDPs without impugning the motives of those who hold different opinions.
It is disingenuous to accuse everyone who points out issues with a system of standing to gain from changing the system and/or being motivated by "personal" issues like jealousy. One could just as easily demand the same "honesty" from players arguing to keep TDP generation the way it is, but that is both unfair and unproductive.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
It would be nice if we could discuss experience mechanics and/or TDPs without impugning the motives of those who hold different opinions.
It is disingenuous to accuse everyone who points out issues with a system of standing to gain from changing the system and/or being motivated by "personal" issues like jealousy. One could just as easily demand the same "honesty" from players arguing to keep TDP generation the way it is, but that is both unfair and unproductive.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Read the thread in it's entirety. I posted from the start. I'm just over the whiners now. And I'm over the "gimmie gimmie" crap. I'm not feeding this anymore, I'm done. I'd love to see you guys make some sense without those of us who actually train in the thread. Be my guest.
No one in this thread has asked for anything for free. If anything, the current model offers more 'free' gimmie gimmie crap, because you just have to mindlessly throw another weapon or two into your training scripts and get random tdps for skills you have no desire to ever use. It really isn't working any harder, or 'actually training' compared to a top 3 or top 5 set up.
No one in this thread has asked for anything for free. If anything, the current model offers more 'free' gimmie gimmie crap, because you just have to mindlessly throw another weapon or two into your training scripts and get random tdps for skills you have no desire to ever use. It really isn't working any harder, or 'actually training' compared to a top 3 or top 5 set up.
<<Read the thread in it's entirety. I posted from the start. I'm just over the whiners now. And I'm over the "gimmie gimmie" crap. I'm not feeding this anymore, I'm done. I'd love to see you guys make some sense without those of us who actually train in the thread. Be my guest.>>
I've seen the earlier posts and get the strong sense that you've been viewing people who disagree with you as 'whiners' from the beginning. And as I think I might have mentioned earlier, it's been almost a decade since I had a character that did not train a multitude of skills for TDPs. I'd strongly encourage you to consider things from a perspective that doesn't revolve entirely around your own personal benefit.
I've seen the earlier posts and get the strong sense that you've been viewing people who disagree with you as 'whiners' from the beginning. And as I think I might have mentioned earlier, it's been almost a decade since I had a character that did not train a multitude of skills for TDPs. I'd strongly encourage you to consider things from a perspective that doesn't revolve entirely around your own personal benefit.
>(Isharon) It is disingenuous to accuse everyone who points out issues with a system of standing to gain from changing the system and/or being motivated by "personal" issues like jealousy. One could just as easily demand the same "honesty" from players arguing to keep TDP generation the way it is, but that is both unfair and unproductive.
That's fair of you and unfair of me to "jump to conclusions" to an extent. Point taken however...
Now for why I point this out and stand by it. This whole thread is about TDP gain run amok (my words) is it not? Arguments started based on 18 skills being in tertiary placement for some guilds thus limiting TDP generation to people whose characters are in this position. Logic dictates then that the "real" issue is about the amount of TDPs accessed in the same amount of time by players of a "losing" guild over that of a "winning" guild. This forced me, logically, to jump to a conclusion that I believe is the crux of the issue, "I want the same amount of TDPs as them no matter my play style."
As an example of why I feel I am not entirely jumping to the "disingenuous" conclusion is because of the following; I don't think barbarians should have access to all magic skills (I hate having to train magic for BMR as it is), not concerned with PVP, as well as things I've posted previously about not caring about comparing myself or catching other players.
For game balance, there is no balance. The world isn't balanced in real life either. The game isn't focused on PVP, except in TF to some extent. If it was then Traders wouldn't be so imbalanced in PVE. I don't care. I joined the guild I wanted to play for personal reasons. I'd only be concerned if I started comparing myself to others within and outside my guild. Again, I don't care. Therefore I'm looking for the underlying reason people are concerned. They keep stating the symptoms but never voice the true problem as they see it for their character(s). It sounds more like GvG than system problems to me. Also, if I'm not mistaken GMs come from the community and they'll bring their own biases to the position. Is that bad? Yes and no.
I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills I can use now or in the future (how many changes has this game undergone? I trained shield when shield meant nothing) that comes not only in ranks in the skills but TDPs I can use to ensure I'm at optimal performance as I progress. I don't want a nerf to how I've been playing that puts me back YEARS in training and forces me to circle chase. I like that one can circle chase to get ahead, and I like that one can train tons of skills to get ahead. I guarantee that when I hit 100 in all stats I won't be able to touch any circle chaser that has 100 in all stats. Why? Because I've trained broad and they've trained deep. Win win. So who is hurt by all this actually? Only the people I point out as feeling they are treated unfairly because they don't want to train the way I want to train.
I put my character in danger of death every day by spending the majority of my time hunting to gain skills. I'm weapons prime. It's a cost benefit analysis. Higher danger should equal higher rewards. Having 500 in all weapons doesn't mean squat even with 70's in all stats when compared to a player with 1000+ in magics and/or a few weapons with 70s in all stats.
I'm still not seeing how things are broken. Sorry.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
That's fair of you and unfair of me to "jump to conclusions" to an extent. Point taken however...
Now for why I point this out and stand by it. This whole thread is about TDP gain run amok (my words) is it not? Arguments started based on 18 skills being in tertiary placement for some guilds thus limiting TDP generation to people whose characters are in this position. Logic dictates then that the "real" issue is about the amount of TDPs accessed in the same amount of time by players of a "losing" guild over that of a "winning" guild. This forced me, logically, to jump to a conclusion that I believe is the crux of the issue, "I want the same amount of TDPs as them no matter my play style."
As an example of why I feel I am not entirely jumping to the "disingenuous" conclusion is because of the following; I don't think barbarians should have access to all magic skills (I hate having to train magic for BMR as it is), not concerned with PVP, as well as things I've posted previously about not caring about comparing myself or catching other players.
For game balance, there is no balance. The world isn't balanced in real life either. The game isn't focused on PVP, except in TF to some extent. If it was then Traders wouldn't be so imbalanced in PVE. I don't care. I joined the guild I wanted to play for personal reasons. I'd only be concerned if I started comparing myself to others within and outside my guild. Again, I don't care. Therefore I'm looking for the underlying reason people are concerned. They keep stating the symptoms but never voice the true problem as they see it for their character(s). It sounds more like GvG than system problems to me. Also, if I'm not mistaken GMs come from the community and they'll bring their own biases to the position. Is that bad? Yes and no.
I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills I can use now or in the future (how many changes has this game undergone? I trained shield when shield meant nothing) that comes not only in ranks in the skills but TDPs I can use to ensure I'm at optimal performance as I progress. I don't want a nerf to how I've been playing that puts me back YEARS in training and forces me to circle chase. I like that one can circle chase to get ahead, and I like that one can train tons of skills to get ahead. I guarantee that when I hit 100 in all stats I won't be able to touch any circle chaser that has 100 in all stats. Why? Because I've trained broad and they've trained deep. Win win. So who is hurt by all this actually? Only the people I point out as feeling they are treated unfairly because they don't want to train the way I want to train.
I put my character in danger of death every day by spending the majority of my time hunting to gain skills. I'm weapons prime. It's a cost benefit analysis. Higher danger should equal higher rewards. Having 500 in all weapons doesn't mean squat even with 70's in all stats when compared to a player with 1000+ in magics and/or a few weapons with 70s in all stats.
I'm still not seeing how things are broken. Sorry.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
You are flat out too invested in your own opinion.
Take a step back. This isn't real life with tons of variables we dont know or can't control.
This is a video game.
The developers control all of it.
Except in very rare circumstances, games should always be balanced. When things aren't balanced you get sub-optimal play, you get players doing things like creating Flavor of the Month builds/specs/classes, or like in DR, training every single skill possible, regardless if it makes sense for their RP or guild or whatever. And it makes it hard to make other improvements to the game, because you then have to patch sub-optimal systems, or work around them.
Some things are harder to balance, like abilities.
But in this case.. it really isn't that hard to figure out a way to balance it. You could limit any skillset to x amount of skills. That would balance it. But would also take away a lot of the diversity of the game. (and they already did reduce the number of weapon skills...) Or, they could ignore the number of skills in a skillset, and just set tdp acquisition to come from a limited number of skills within the skillset. It doesn't make it 'easier'. It doesn't really change anything except for like 1% of the population that doesn't ever want to have to leave an area of the game (and that person will run into a lack of tdps eventually anyways). You would still be able to 'actually train' and gain as many ranks as you wanted to in whatever skill you wanted to use, but their primary purpose would be to make you better at using that skill, not just gaining more tdps.
>>I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills
The benefit is that you gained more ranks in those skills you trained and are able to better use them in the future. That should be the primary reason for training a skill. If it isn't... something is wrong with the system.
>>I'm still not seeing how things are broken. Sorry.
Of course you can't. Because you seem to only care about yourself in this situation and you can't or won't pull back to look at it from another perspective. I even understand your viewpoint. I get it. You figured out how to make the current system work for you. There is nothing wrong with that. We have all made it work one way or another for our characters. But that doesn't mean it is working well, or right.
I can make do under the current system. It just isn't great. It could be improved. For everyone. And if it could be better... then we should work to make it better. Regardless if it might mean we have to adjust.
Take a step back. This isn't real life with tons of variables we dont know or can't control.
This is a video game.
The developers control all of it.
Except in very rare circumstances, games should always be balanced. When things aren't balanced you get sub-optimal play, you get players doing things like creating Flavor of the Month builds/specs/classes, or like in DR, training every single skill possible, regardless if it makes sense for their RP or guild or whatever. And it makes it hard to make other improvements to the game, because you then have to patch sub-optimal systems, or work around them.
Some things are harder to balance, like abilities.
But in this case.. it really isn't that hard to figure out a way to balance it. You could limit any skillset to x amount of skills. That would balance it. But would also take away a lot of the diversity of the game. (and they already did reduce the number of weapon skills...) Or, they could ignore the number of skills in a skillset, and just set tdp acquisition to come from a limited number of skills within the skillset. It doesn't make it 'easier'. It doesn't really change anything except for like 1% of the population that doesn't ever want to have to leave an area of the game (and that person will run into a lack of tdps eventually anyways). You would still be able to 'actually train' and gain as many ranks as you wanted to in whatever skill you wanted to use, but their primary purpose would be to make you better at using that skill, not just gaining more tdps.
>>I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills
The benefit is that you gained more ranks in those skills you trained and are able to better use them in the future. That should be the primary reason for training a skill. If it isn't... something is wrong with the system.
>>I'm still not seeing how things are broken. Sorry.
Of course you can't. Because you seem to only care about yourself in this situation and you can't or won't pull back to look at it from another perspective. I even understand your viewpoint. I get it. You figured out how to make the current system work for you. There is nothing wrong with that. We have all made it work one way or another for our characters. But that doesn't mean it is working well, or right.
I can make do under the current system. It just isn't great. It could be improved. For everyone. And if it could be better... then we should work to make it better. Regardless if it might mean we have to adjust.
>Maybe the GMs could instantiate some type of status where you don't learn anything at all while training. Perhaps it could be based on the amount of overflow of skills into a type of pool. Let's call it "mind state" and the more you do a single skill the more your mind gets, I don't know, murky? Then at some point you just stop learning thus stopping the TDP gains from learning a skill. Yeah, that's the ticket. Maybe I'll patent the idea.
It penalized combat terts (especially weapon terts) because they'd lock hard and take forever to drain under OldEXP's drain model. As I recall there was a protective bandaid that if you weren't locking Multi-opponent, then you wouldn't start screwing your overall mindstate.
It was entirely possible to freeze mindstate just from training one skill. Say using COLLECT to train perception, you'd lock outdoorsmanship first and long before perception, and would be screwing up your mindstate from continuing to push for perception training.
Just a couple of the obviously big problems of it.
More on topic, I have grown to hate the combat/non-combat dichotomy because of the massive TDP disparity I have gotten over time because without hunting my TDP generation is SLOW. With combat I was easily getting 50-60 per day. Without combat I'm only getting about 15 per day.
Trader, FYI.
Combat training 6 armor skills, 6 weapon skills total (only 2 "weapons"), tactics, evasion, skinning, and first aid. 16 skills total, only 1 being Primary, 9 secondary, 6 tertiary, and all of them no higher than 600 (except FA).
Non-combat training athletics, outdoorsmanship, perception, first aid, trading, appraisal, forging, oufitting, performance, scholarship. 10 skills total, 6 primary skills, 4 secondary skills, most, possibly even all of them are higher than any of my combat skills.
All of the non-combat skills have to be trained sequentially except the first aid (bleed), appraisal (some use of APP FOCUS replaced my spamming appraisal of a swappable knife sequentially), and scholarship (lugging along a student, I don't, so that's sequential for me to studying a book).
In combat everything moved all the time, I was always getting TDP every hour as this skill or that skill ranked. My high level lore skills take upwards of 12-14 hours to rank for 4-5 TDP each.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
It penalized combat terts (especially weapon terts) because they'd lock hard and take forever to drain under OldEXP's drain model. As I recall there was a protective bandaid that if you weren't locking Multi-opponent, then you wouldn't start screwing your overall mindstate.
It was entirely possible to freeze mindstate just from training one skill. Say using COLLECT to train perception, you'd lock outdoorsmanship first and long before perception, and would be screwing up your mindstate from continuing to push for perception training.
Just a couple of the obviously big problems of it.
More on topic, I have grown to hate the combat/non-combat dichotomy because of the massive TDP disparity I have gotten over time because without hunting my TDP generation is SLOW. With combat I was easily getting 50-60 per day. Without combat I'm only getting about 15 per day.
Trader, FYI.
Combat training 6 armor skills, 6 weapon skills total (only 2 "weapons"), tactics, evasion, skinning, and first aid. 16 skills total, only 1 being Primary, 9 secondary, 6 tertiary, and all of them no higher than 600 (except FA).
Non-combat training athletics, outdoorsmanship, perception, first aid, trading, appraisal, forging, oufitting, performance, scholarship. 10 skills total, 6 primary skills, 4 secondary skills, most, possibly even all of them are higher than any of my combat skills.
All of the non-combat skills have to be trained sequentially except the first aid (bleed), appraisal (some use of APP FOCUS replaced my spamming appraisal of a swappable knife sequentially), and scholarship (lugging along a student, I don't, so that's sequential for me to studying a book).
In combat everything moved all the time, I was always getting TDP every hour as this skill or that skill ranked. My high level lore skills take upwards of 12-14 hours to rank for 4-5 TDP each.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
The benefit of training widely (extra TDPs) doesn't need to change, there just really should be some sort of incentive to focus on fewer skills. The fact that you may circle a little quicker isn't really an incentive, because there are quite a few skills that really don't require that much more work. Carry a few more weapons, slap on a few different types of armor, play some zills while you run to the bathroom, whatever. Now, say you gained EXP more quickly if you were working fewer skills at once; now it's actually a choice. Do I work all the skills I can to gain more TDPs, or do I focus tighter and gain EXP faster? That seems win-win to me. The people who want their TDPs get their TDPs, and people who don't have the time, or prefer not to be a paladin wearing leather and shooting a sling while playing their zills, can gain EXP a little quicker. Or it can be something else, there just should be SOMETHING, however minor it may be.
<<Therefore I'm looking for the underlying reason people are concerned. They keep stating the symptoms but never voice the true problem as they see it for their character(s). >>
The symptoms are a significant part of the problem. It's a roleplaying game wherein people are heavily incentivized to do things that run counter to their role. It's also deeply unfair on a basis of time invested to anyone who doesn't prioritize combat or wants to train some of the skills that rare tricky to train alongside others - see stealing or crafting as the two most readily apparent examples. And it's also unfair on a basis of available skills - one of your own points is that Barbarians can't train TM, while all magic-using guilds have a pretty easy time of it. And finally, as you mentioned before, it confers an additional advantage upon people who have more time to spend on training and choose to do so instead of choosing to RP or pursue other activities ON TOP OF the natural advantage of gaining ranks in the skills they're training. So we have a system in place that hampers immersion, heavily favors people focused on combat, arbitrarily penalizes some guilds, helps to encourage people to spend all their time training (to 'keep up with the Jonses' so to speak), and also helps the people who already see great advantages with efficient scripts and loads of DR time available to them gain an additional advantage on top of the skill and coin generation they already enjoy.
All of that makes for a system that doesn't really sound ideal. To truly justify it as something that shouldn't be looked at, you'd have to come up with some pretty solid reasons for why it is the way it is. Thus far the point that you should gain stats for more than just circling has been acknowledged as valid and already addressed with the idea that you'd still get TDPs from skills, but the number of skills that give you TDPs would be reduced to just a handful and the game balanced with that in mind. The idea that the system presently encourages well-rounded characters has also been addressed - well-roundedness means training many things with the idea that they may be useful on their own merits, not training them primarily because you know it takes little extra effort and will provide tangible benefits to unrelated aspects of your character simply for having those ranks.
So all that's left that I see is 'I have an advantage in playing the way I do and would prefer to keep my advantage more than I would like to see those other concerns addressed'. If that misrepresents the opposing viewpoint, please clarify.
>>Rchight: Now for why I point this out and stand by it. This whole thread is about TDP gain run amok (my words) is it not? Arguments started based on 18 skills being in tertiary placement for some guilds thus limiting TDP generation to people whose characters are in this position. Logic dictates then that the "real" issue is about the amount of TDPs accessed in the same amount of time by players of a "losing" guild over that of a "winning" guild.
People approach the issue from different angles. For me personally, it's not a GvG issue (number of primary skills or access to skills). Rather, it's a game-wide problem with effectively unlimited TDPs in conjunction with experience mechanics that make it strictly the right decision to have as many skills draining as possible. This ultimately results in more homogenized character builds, where most serious players train all or most of the available skills, and stats approach all 100s at the end game.
Like many of you, I train generally and would likely be worse off, mechanically, if they changed TDP generation or capped TDPs. I think that the game should continue to reward those who put in the most time. (I can't really call it work when we are often just typing .hunt and keeping an eye on the game while we do other things.) However, I do not think the current mechanics and incentives are good for the game as a whole for the reasons stated above (and in my previous posts).
>>Rchight: I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills I can use now or in the future (how many changes has this game undergone? I trained shield when shield meant nothing) that comes not only in ranks in the skills but TDPs I can use to ensure I'm at optimal performance as I progress.
The primary benefit of training additional skills (being a generalist) should be increased capability in those skills (and the flexibility that comes with it), not TDPs. If skills aren't seen as worthwhile when the TDP carrot is removed, then the skill either needs further development or should be merged with another skill.
Most of us are playing generalists for mechanical reasons. Some of us may try to work this into our RP, but if TDPs are the only reason we're training broadly, then we have to admit that it's more about the mechanics than the RP. There's nothing inherently wrong with that -- you can't fault players for trying to optimize -- but it does suggest that some of the RP-based arguments of "my character is a generalist" are merely post hoc rationalizations contrived to justify the mechanics-based decisions we make.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
People approach the issue from different angles. For me personally, it's not a GvG issue (number of primary skills or access to skills). Rather, it's a game-wide problem with effectively unlimited TDPs in conjunction with experience mechanics that make it strictly the right decision to have as many skills draining as possible. This ultimately results in more homogenized character builds, where most serious players train all or most of the available skills, and stats approach all 100s at the end game.
Like many of you, I train generally and would likely be worse off, mechanically, if they changed TDP generation or capped TDPs. I think that the game should continue to reward those who put in the most time. (I can't really call it work when we are often just typing .hunt and keeping an eye on the game while we do other things.) However, I do not think the current mechanics and incentives are good for the game as a whole for the reasons stated above (and in my previous posts).
>>Rchight: I'll be honest. I like seeing a benefit from training up skills I can use now or in the future (how many changes has this game undergone? I trained shield when shield meant nothing) that comes not only in ranks in the skills but TDPs I can use to ensure I'm at optimal performance as I progress.
The primary benefit of training additional skills (being a generalist) should be increased capability in those skills (and the flexibility that comes with it), not TDPs. If skills aren't seen as worthwhile when the TDP carrot is removed, then the skill either needs further development or should be merged with another skill.
Most of us are playing generalists for mechanical reasons. Some of us may try to work this into our RP, but if TDPs are the only reason we're training broadly, then we have to admit that it's more about the mechanics than the RP. There's nothing inherently wrong with that -- you can't fault players for trying to optimize -- but it does suggest that some of the RP-based arguments of "my character is a generalist" are merely post hoc rationalizations contrived to justify the mechanics-based decisions we make.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Obviously the answer to this whole TDP topic is to limit what earned TDPS can be spent on.
I gain a TDP from crafting? I can only spend that TDP on agility or strength.
I gain a TDP from casting spells? I can only spend that TDP on intel or wisdom.
All this is tongue in cheek. Leave it the way it is.
I gain a TDP from crafting? I can only spend that TDP on agility or strength.
I gain a TDP from casting spells? I can only spend that TDP on intel or wisdom.
All this is tongue in cheek. Leave it the way it is.
