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In General Discussions, we're talking about Light Edged needing a good kick to make it more worthwhile. I had some ideas, but figured I'd post them here.
1) Fatigue calculations
While not exclusive to LE in its effect, I think that the following change to fatigue would be excellent in making LE more viable in terms of just plain use: Currently, fatigue loss seems to be a linear progression based on weight i.e. if your weapon weighs x stones, you will lose x*c fatigue points (where c is some constant to bring the numbers in line). I could be way off, here, but that seems like the way it is right now. To improve this calculation, makes it d*x^2 + e*x where d and e are different constants that bring the numbers more in line. In addition to making LE weapons use a fair bit less fatigue, this could also be part of the solution to the 6-RT HEAVY weapons that can be used right now.
2) Crits
Improving the chance of a Light Edged weapon to cause a critical hit (and thus doing more damage than normal) would make it a much more viable weapon, in my opinion. The increased chance of a LE weapon to cause a critical hit above another, heavier weapon could be justified by noting that it is easier to get a smaller blade through holes in armor. Perhaps 'crit' is the wrong word, but 'armor piercing' is clumsy. This effect would cause the weapon to have a chance of ignoring armor entirely (after evasion, shield, and parry are taken into account, of course).
3) To-Hit
From my limited experience fighting, I've found that swinging a weapon takes time. During the time it takes to swing a weapon, you aren't really in a position to do a whole lot of parrying. However, preventing parry during a swing would be disastrous to anybody that uses parry, and whoever attacked first would inevitably lose. Instead, I propose an attack bonus during an opponent's RT that scales inversely as weapon size goes up. That is, LE/LB have the greatest attack bonus, ME/MB the lesser, and HE/HB none at all. Because smaller weapons are faster, they are more able to sneak into the little opportunities than heavier weapons.
These are not fully fleshed out ideas, but rather some starting points to get the discussion started. What else could be done besides increasing weapon stats to make LE more viable?
-Durnil
In order for a smaller weapon to fit into holes in the armor, I think it'd have to be a stabber. That's okay with me because I use a stabber for my main melee weapon. This type of ability seems like more of a Barbarian or Thief guild ability than a weapon quality, though.
I do think the fatigue equation needs some work. Using a 23 stone sword should tire you out less than using a 50 stone sword, regardless of what DR weapon class they fall into. The fatigue should at least be equal, seeing as the reason you can swing the lighter one fast enough to make you tired is because it weighs less and easier to swing.
I also think that there should be evasion bonuses for using smaller weapon types over and above the mild burden addition using a heavier weapon causes. Someone holding a greatsword won't have the same ability to evade as someone holding a dagger - not taking parrying into consideration.
Primarily, though, I think the LE templates need some work. Nothing worthwhile can be made in LE with normal metals, in my opinion.
________
-M.F.-
I do think the fatigue equation needs some work. Using a 23 stone sword should tire you out less than using a 50 stone sword, regardless of what DR weapon class they fall into. The fatigue should at least be equal, seeing as the reason you can swing the lighter one fast enough to make you tired is because it weighs less and easier to swing.
I also think that there should be evasion bonuses for using smaller weapon types over and above the mild burden addition using a heavier weapon causes. Someone holding a greatsword won't have the same ability to evade as someone holding a dagger - not taking parrying into consideration.
Primarily, though, I think the LE templates need some work. Nothing worthwhile can be made in LE with normal metals, in my opinion.
________
-M.F.-
<<Nothing worthwhile can be made in LE with normal metals, in my opinion.>>
A katar is a light edged melee-ranged weapon.
You are certain that it could do:
poor puncture damage
fair slice damage
moderate impact damage
You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced and is well suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the katar is of average strength, and is in pristine condition.
The katar is made with metal.
You are certain that the katar weighs exactly 39 stones.
You are certain that the katar is worth exactly 600 lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Does this count?
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
A katar is a light edged melee-ranged weapon.
You are certain that it could do:
poor puncture damage
fair slice damage
moderate impact damage
You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced and is well suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the katar is of average strength, and is in pristine condition.
The katar is made with metal.
You are certain that the katar weighs exactly 39 stones.
You are certain that the katar is worth exactly 600 lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
Does this count?
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
Be nice to see lighter weapons (LE/ME, LB/MB) much better at parrying than they are now. It seems the 'balance' aspect of parrying is outweighed by the 'size' factor, but thats without much research into the matter.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
<<Honestly that's more like a light blunt weapon that does some slice damage.>>
R>draw
< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
R>draw
< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
<<The impact from momentum would shatter your wrist/elbow/shoulder blade when parrying a 2HB or 2HE with an LE.>>
Not necessarily. If you used the momentum of the bigger weapon against itself, and merely redirected the motion, you could probably parry pretty well.
The key to parrying with smaller weapons is to understand the physics of the two objects... and not straight out try to stop the momentum with your piddly little knife.
Minimum effort, maximum efficiency.
-Vel
Not necessarily. If you used the momentum of the bigger weapon against itself, and merely redirected the motion, you could probably parry pretty well.
The key to parrying with smaller weapons is to understand the physics of the two objects... and not straight out try to stop the momentum with your piddly little knife.
Minimum effort, maximum efficiency.
-Vel
>>Minimum effort, maximum efficiency.
Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
<<A katar is a light edged melee-ranged weapon.
You are certain that it could do:
poor puncture damage
fair slice damage
moderate impact damage
You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced and is well suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the katar is of average strength, and is in pristine condition.
The katar is made with metal.
You are certain that the katar weighs exactly 39 stones.
You are certain that the katar is worth exactly 600 lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.>>
<<Does this count?>>
It counts, but you're making my point for me. "You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced" It is about as low in the 'Dismal' range as you can get. If you don't care about making consistent contact when you swing, or about using parry, than that's fine. However, most folks do care about making contact when they swing and unless your primary defense is shield than you are penalizing yourself. I try to stay as far away from those katars as possible, and I stand by my statement that nothing in LE can currently be made without special metals that is worthwhile.
________
-M.F.-
You are certain that it could do:
poor puncture damage
fair slice damage
moderate impact damage
You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced and is well suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the katar is of average strength, and is in pristine condition.
The katar is made with metal.
You are certain that the katar weighs exactly 39 stones.
You are certain that the katar is worth exactly 600 lirums.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.>>
<<Does this count?>>
It counts, but you're making my point for me. "You are certain that the katar is dismally balanced" It is about as low in the 'Dismal' range as you can get. If you don't care about making consistent contact when you swing, or about using parry, than that's fine. However, most folks do care about making contact when they swing and unless your primary defense is shield than you are penalizing yourself. I try to stay as far away from those katars as possible, and I stand by my statement that nothing in LE can currently be made without special metals that is worthwhile.
________
-M.F.-
>Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
Precisely. You went with a Bruce Lee quote, I went with the Judo mantra, but in the end it all means the same thing.
-Vel
Precisely. You went with a Bruce Lee quote, I went with the Judo mantra, but in the end it all means the same thing.
-Vel
>Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
>Precisely. You went with a Bruce Lee quote, I went with the Judo mantra, but in the end it all means the same thing.
Neither went with my personal favorite: When you eyes are level with thier belt, your teeth are level with thier crotch.
Demonstrates the great gnomish/olvi art of making do being short.
>Precisely. You went with a Bruce Lee quote, I went with the Judo mantra, but in the end it all means the same thing.
Neither went with my personal favorite: When you eyes are level with thier belt, your teeth are level with thier crotch.
Demonstrates the great gnomish/olvi art of making do being short.
>R>draw
< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
Ok, now bash.
< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
Ok, now bash.
>R>draw
<< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
<<Ok, now bash.
R>slice
< Moving like a striking snake, you slice a fiery scarlet katar at a blood wolf. A blood wolf fails to evade, moving directly into the blow. The katar lands an extremely heavy hit that cuts deeply into the fleshy part of the left palm.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>
< With strength, you slice a claymore at a blood wolf. A blood wolf attempts to dodge, taking the full blow. The claymore lands an apocalyptic strike (So that's what it felt like when Grazhir shattered!) that rips away the right eye and half the nose.
A blood wolf whines briefly before closing its eyes forever.
[You're incredibly balanced]
[Roundtime 6 sec.]
Twohanded Edged: 47 73.04% bewildered
Light Edged: 86 35.57% learning
<< Moving in with powerful grace, you step backward and then bash at a caracal. A caracal attempts to evade, only slightly avoiding the blow.
The katar lands a heavy strike that cuts deeply into the caracal's right tricep.
[You're slightly off balance and opponent has slight advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
<<Ok, now bash.
R>slice
< Moving like a striking snake, you slice a fiery scarlet katar at a blood wolf. A blood wolf fails to evade, moving directly into the blow. The katar lands an extremely heavy hit that cuts deeply into the fleshy part of the left palm.
[You're winded, incredibly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>
< With strength, you slice a claymore at a blood wolf. A blood wolf attempts to dodge, taking the full blow. The claymore lands an apocalyptic strike (So that's what it felt like when Grazhir shattered!) that rips away the right eye and half the nose.
A blood wolf whines briefly before closing its eyes forever.
[You're incredibly balanced]
[Roundtime 6 sec.]
Twohanded Edged: 47 73.04% bewildered
Light Edged: 86 35.57% learning
I was going to post something about training agility and back training shield, but i decided not to.
I guess i don't see the difference when I can kill celps at 260 ranks of LE using a 'Dismally' balanced katar, whether, I can parry their blows, or not.
Let the flames ensue.
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
I guess i don't see the difference when I can kill celps at 260 ranks of LE using a 'Dismally' balanced katar, whether, I can parry their blows, or not.
Let the flames ensue.
Legendary Bard Mibe Oyiee, Dead Eye of Elanthia
~ You know I could always put it back to the old roundtimes...
>>I guess i don't see the difference when I can kill celps at 260 ranks of LE using a 'Dismally' balanced katar, whether, I can parry their blows, or not.
If it works for you, power.
It doesn't work for me, at all. A multi situation is bar none the best way to powertrain, and parry's the best defense at multi. Especially when we start talking Barbs, Warrior Mages, Clerics, Bards (the way I play mine), etc. who all have parry higher than evasion/shield. Love me that good weapon balance.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
If it works for you, power.
It doesn't work for me, at all. A multi situation is bar none the best way to powertrain, and parry's the best defense at multi. Especially when we start talking Barbs, Warrior Mages, Clerics, Bards (the way I play mine), etc. who all have parry higher than evasion/shield. Love me that good weapon balance.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
My guess is having that Legendary title before your name aids slightly your ability to do this. I can take a d/w katar and go whalloping around in black leucros, destroying everything. It doesn't really matter what you can do when you're backtraining something, the fact is (I'm being redundantly repetitive) a simple 28 stone bastard sword has mid-to-high end Reasonable balance in 2he, and can hit low end Reasonable in HE; a 21 stone broadsword can hit Reasonable balance along with Heavy slice; a 26 stone sabre can hit Reasonable balance with Heavy puncture; nothing in LE can hit anything above Fair damage while maintaining balance without using special metals.
Training agility and backtraining shield have nothing to do with my point, they're just points for petty arguments which I'm not going to engage in. My point is valid; unless you have access to kertig, glaes or damite, have an old old katar (even those only have Poor balance and less slice than the high 30s forged katars), have an amazingly rare invasion weapon (only 2 exist, I think), or have a pre-tweak weapon (maybe 3 or 4 exist), you are out of luck finding a LE weapon that is decent to use at level. That's my point, plain and simple, there are no decent LE templates and I think that needs to be looked into.
________
-M.F.-
Training agility and backtraining shield have nothing to do with my point, they're just points for petty arguments which I'm not going to engage in. My point is valid; unless you have access to kertig, glaes or damite, have an old old katar (even those only have Poor balance and less slice than the high 30s forged katars), have an amazingly rare invasion weapon (only 2 exist, I think), or have a pre-tweak weapon (maybe 3 or 4 exist), you are out of luck finding a LE weapon that is decent to use at level. That's my point, plain and simple, there are no decent LE templates and I think that needs to be looked into.
________
-M.F.-
<<It doesn't work for me, at all. A multi situation is bar none the best way to powertrain, and parry's the best defense at multi.
Since the combat changes I've been having a hard time parrying successfully in multi situations, regardless of the type of weapon I'm using or the balance of that weapon. The shield seems to block everything, despite it being 15 ranks lower than my cleric's parry. Maybe it's because my LE's 15 ranks lower than my shield though? But I do agree, I love being able to dance in a large group of critters, whether it's to powertrain or just be a tank.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
-At the cleric meeting-
DARTENIAN says, "I think we all need to get down and pray for bit-based experience."
>DARTENIAN clears his throat.
Since the combat changes I've been having a hard time parrying successfully in multi situations, regardless of the type of weapon I'm using or the balance of that weapon. The shield seems to block everything, despite it being 15 ranks lower than my cleric's parry. Maybe it's because my LE's 15 ranks lower than my shield though? But I do agree, I love being able to dance in a large group of critters, whether it's to powertrain or just be a tank.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
-At the cleric meeting-
DARTENIAN says, "I think we all need to get down and pray for bit-based experience."
>DARTENIAN clears his throat.
>>Since the combat changes I've been having a hard time parrying successfully in multi situations, regardless of the type of weapon I'm using or the balance of that weapon. The shield seems to block everything, despite it being 15 ranks lower than my cleric's parry.
Ditto.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
Ditto.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
>>Since the combat changes I've been having a hard time parrying successfully in multi situations, regardless of the type of weapon I'm using or the balance of that weapon.
What's the balance on your weapon? Anything below 'fairly' is going to be penalizing your parry, I think. Doesn't work quite the same with shield and shield hinderance.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
What's the balance on your weapon? Anything below 'fairly' is going to be penalizing your parry, I think. Doesn't work quite the same with shield and shield hinderance.
System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.
>>Neither went with my personal favorite: When you eyes are level with thier belt, your teeth are level with thier crotch.
Ahahaha, I certainly hope you aren't used to being at that level.
In any case, LE does need some improvement. Someone suggested in another thread about the possibility of combining attacks and RT. So say for instance it takes someone a maximum of 5 seconds to complete a combo, then they'd be able to combine that combo into consecutive attacks for a maximum of 5 seconds. (Or it could be made for 6 seconds, however one sees fit so that it's not too powerful or too weak.)
I think this would prove very useful if someone is going for the instant kill or if they try to finish someone off quickly after stunning them or something. LE really needs something like this.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Ahahaha, I certainly hope you aren't used to being at that level.
In any case, LE does need some improvement. Someone suggested in another thread about the possibility of combining attacks and RT. So say for instance it takes someone a maximum of 5 seconds to complete a combo, then they'd be able to combine that combo into consecutive attacks for a maximum of 5 seconds. (Or it could be made for 6 seconds, however one sees fit so that it's not too powerful or too weak.)
I think this would prove very useful if someone is going for the instant kill or if they try to finish someone off quickly after stunning them or something. LE really needs something like this.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Hrm, how about giving lighter, more balanced weapons, more of a parry boost as well? When I think of a parrying master I think of someone with a main gauche or long knife or tri dagger, not a bastie wielder.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>When I think of a parrying master I think of someone with a main gauche or long knife or tri dagger, not a bastie wielder.
Seriously.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
Seriously.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
<<Hrm, how about giving lighter, more balanced weapons, more of a parry boost as well? <<When I think of a parrying master I think of someone with a main gauche or long knife <<or tri dagger, not a bastie wielder.
A bastard sword.. at least the commonly made ones.. are more balanced than 95% of the available LEs.
________
"Just an observation, but you do not seem to know what you are talking about, and the things you say seem generally unintelligent."
A bastard sword.. at least the commonly made ones.. are more balanced than 95% of the available LEs.
________
"Just an observation, but you do not seem to know what you are talking about, and the things you say seem generally unintelligent."
Right; that might be an issue. No offense to the heavier weapon users, but the lighter weapons should be better balanced the the larger, hefty ones. A bastard sword is long, and even with a nice even balancing is going to unfoot you as your using it. Since its unlikely the balance on all weapons is going to be revisited, having a floating bonus based on weapon weight (or penalty above some set value) might be a good idea.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
