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ReplyHi everyone, I'm very new to DR. I've scoured the shield forum and have gotten some good answers, but am still unclear about some things.
I like to armwear my shield for when I use pike and HT, but prefer to hold it when using MB and HE. Anyway, I've noticed that I get hit a LOT less when using a shield, as opposed to when I use eva/parry. In fact I see no need to ever bring up parry except for that I need it to circle. With my shield skill creeping up on 100, I was wondering when it would be a good idea to switch to something larger than a small, and if anyone knows where to get a good store-bought variety (for medium or large or whatever I upgrade to). I'm not made out of money, but I could probably shell out anywhere from 5-10pk.
I suppose stats may have something to do with how much encumbrance a larger shield may cause...not too sure what the balance is between that and actual shield skill.
Str 18
Agi 18
Ref 18
Dis 18
Sta 16
They would be higher but I'm really concentrating on mentals right now, I can't neglect those even as a barbarian I guess.
Thanks!
>Anyway, I've noticed that I get hit a LOT less when using a shield, as opposed to when I use eva/parry.
This is because your weapon stats play a decent role in the way you parry. Unbalanced weapons parry poorly.
>With my shield skill creeping up on 100, I was wondering when it would be a good idea to switch to something larger than a small,
This is going to sound strange, but generally as you get better, you'll want to get a smaller shield. This has to do with the fact that the bonus to block due to size is a flat number and the penalty to defend due to hindrance (which goes up with size) is a % of your skill. Sooner or later, with enough skill, that % is going to be bigger than the bonus.
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Combat Balance List:
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This is because your weapon stats play a decent role in the way you parry. Unbalanced weapons parry poorly.
>With my shield skill creeping up on 100, I was wondering when it would be a good idea to switch to something larger than a small,
This is going to sound strange, but generally as you get better, you'll want to get a smaller shield. This has to do with the fact that the bonus to block due to size is a flat number and the penalty to defend due to hindrance (which goes up with size) is a % of your skill. Sooner or later, with enough skill, that % is going to be bigger than the bonus.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>Robyrne4: I like to armwear my shield for when I use pike and HT, but prefer to hold it when using MB and HE. . . . I was wondering when it would be a good idea to switch to something larger than a small
If you want to be able to arm-wear your shield as a Barbarian, use a small or medium shield. (Only Paladins can arm-wear large shields.)
Currently, most non-Paladins use capped crocodile-skin bucklers, which are small shields. The protection afforded by these bucklers is comparable to that of medium shields, but they are much lighter.
Crocodile-skin bucklers are very reasonably priced at 10-15 plats. Badtooth's Shop (a player-owned shop) sells 33-stone bucklers for 100033 Kronars, which is just over 10 plats. (Many Traders put the weight in the price.) To get there, go to Crossing's Market Plaza and "ask guard about Badtooth."
One advantage of using a small shield is that as a Barbarian, you can use stick bows without a penalty to loading or aiming.
You can search store-bought shields here (select festival = no): http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/ShieldQuery
>>Robyrne4: Anyway, I've noticed that I get hit a LOT less when using a shield, as opposed to when I use eva/parry. In fact I see no need to ever bring up parry except for that I need it to circle.
At low levels, shield tends to be the most reliable defense. This is because it's the least affected by hindrance. (As Caraamon mentioned, success at parrying depends in part on your skill with that weapon and the weapon's balance.) At high levels, parry is supposed to be the best defense for fending off multiple opponents at melee range. However, in practice evasion tends to be the main defense against high-level creatures. (This has to do with the static amount of "HP" that each body part has.)
This is all going to change in Combat 3.0. We have been assured that each defense is going to be a viable defense with its own advantages and disadvantages. So my recommendation is to train all three of your defenses.
Also keep in mind that in Combat 3.0, armor ranks will be more important, so don't neglect your armor training. (Armor ranks will contribute to the amount of protection that you experience. Furthermore, your evasion will be penalized if your armor falls too far behind your evasion.)
You can read more about the upcoming Combat 3.0 changes here: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Combat_3.0
Feel free to IM me (IsharonDR).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
If you want to be able to arm-wear your shield as a Barbarian, use a small or medium shield. (Only Paladins can arm-wear large shields.)
Currently, most non-Paladins use capped crocodile-skin bucklers, which are small shields. The protection afforded by these bucklers is comparable to that of medium shields, but they are much lighter.
Crocodile-skin bucklers are very reasonably priced at 10-15 plats. Badtooth's Shop (a player-owned shop) sells 33-stone bucklers for 100033 Kronars, which is just over 10 plats. (Many Traders put the weight in the price.) To get there, go to Crossing's Market Plaza and "ask guard about Badtooth."
One advantage of using a small shield is that as a Barbarian, you can use stick bows without a penalty to loading or aiming.
You can search store-bought shields here (select festival = no): http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/ShieldQuery
>>Robyrne4: Anyway, I've noticed that I get hit a LOT less when using a shield, as opposed to when I use eva/parry. In fact I see no need to ever bring up parry except for that I need it to circle.
At low levels, shield tends to be the most reliable defense. This is because it's the least affected by hindrance. (As Caraamon mentioned, success at parrying depends in part on your skill with that weapon and the weapon's balance.) At high levels, parry is supposed to be the best defense for fending off multiple opponents at melee range. However, in practice evasion tends to be the main defense against high-level creatures. (This has to do with the static amount of "HP" that each body part has.)
This is all going to change in Combat 3.0. We have been assured that each defense is going to be a viable defense with its own advantages and disadvantages. So my recommendation is to train all three of your defenses.
Also keep in mind that in Combat 3.0, armor ranks will be more important, so don't neglect your armor training. (Armor ranks will contribute to the amount of protection that you experience. Furthermore, your evasion will be penalized if your armor falls too far behind your evasion.)
You can read more about the upcoming Combat 3.0 changes here: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Combat_3.0
Feel free to IM me (IsharonDR).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
>>They would be higher but I'm really concentrating on mentals right now, I can't neglect those even as a barbarian I guess.
This is unrelated to your actual questions, but I've always preferred semi-ignoring mental stats when you are new and pumping up physical stats. Strength/Agi are tops for getting the min RT on your weapons, and Stamina is great for reaching the point where you can swing at min RT's without getting tired (also Strength/Stamina help you carry more stuff). Mentals don't matter as much at low level since everything trains really fast anyways when your ranks are low
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu
This is unrelated to your actual questions, but I've always preferred semi-ignoring mental stats when you are new and pumping up physical stats. Strength/Agi are tops for getting the min RT on your weapons, and Stamina is great for reaching the point where you can swing at min RT's without getting tired (also Strength/Stamina help you carry more stuff). Mentals don't matter as much at low level since everything trains really fast anyways when your ranks are low
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Apu
This has to do with the fact that the bonus to block due to size is a flat number and the penalty to defend due to hindrance (which goes up with size) is a % of your skill.
I knew there had to be something quirky. So when you say block due to size, you mean the range of protection that the shield itself is capable of? I think I got it but I may be wrong...correct me if so...if a shield has 2/11 to 5/11 protection, I can't get that full protection unless my skill is high enough? So say at 100 skill I'll be getting 2/11 but at 500 skill I'll actually be getting the 5/11?
I'll toss ya an IM sometime Jaragona, hopefully you can shed some light on the subject. I'm almost even more confused, now.
I don't know why I thought I'd be able to armwear a large shield. I was looking forward to it, but if I can be afforded the same protection from an armworn small with enough ranks I'm happy with that.
As for the weapon I parry with...it's a forged steel broadsword someone gave me with the initials "T.S", not sure if any of you know who's maker's mark that is. Elanthipedia doesn't, but I'm guessing it's more balanced than my big noggin' throwing hammer from Boar Clan and my short hunting spear from Arthe Dale.
Thanks Isharon, I see those croc-skin bucklers everywhere. But, ah, what does "capped" mean? I read that word a lot on the forums but don't know what it means. "Capped copperwood longbow" is another one I see a lot of.
Somewhere I read that in MO situations, shield is the best. Followed by parry, followed by evasion. Guess I was wrong, heh.
I never neglect armor. That and shield are my favorite skills. LC is my highest, followed by leather, but lately I've been working on LP and HP and HC in my downtime. I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to use them properly as a barb, but it's nice to have the extra TDPs, and who knows, maybe one day I'll face an opponent that shreds LC but hit's HP like a baby hits a brick wall with a rattle. Either way armor is fun. I just need something better than what I got at the Crossing. Gots to save up 100 more plat.
As for my stats, yeah, I'm noticing no difference at all in how fast primary/secondary are ranking. Seems nice and fast. Lore, though. Mech lore and appraisal kinda seemed to slow down quite a bit after 50 ranks.
Anyway, thanks for all the helpful answers and advice!
>So when you say block due to size, you mean the range of protection that the shield itself is capable of? I think I got it but I may be wrong...correct me if so...if a shield has 2/11 to 5/11 protection, I can't get that full protection unless my skill is high enough? So say at 100 skill I'll be getting 2/11 but at 500 skill I'll actually be getting the 5/11?
Pretty much. But RELATIVELY speaking, you hit the high end of protection quickly. However, there's no cap to the loss of ranks due to the % loss to hindrance.
>But, ah, what does "capped" mean? I read that word a lot on the forums but don't know what it means. "Capped copperwood longbow" is another one I see a lot of.
This is a dangerous word. For many of the old systems (bows, shields) there is for the most part a linear progression of quality vs. skill. I.E, given two longbows, one is always better or equal to another. Shields are a little more tricky, but more or less the same.
In the new systems, the word has less meaning and people frequently use it wrongly. IM me at CaraamonDR and I'd be happy to have a conversation about it.
Weapons for Sale:
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Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Pretty much. But RELATIVELY speaking, you hit the high end of protection quickly. However, there's no cap to the loss of ranks due to the % loss to hindrance.
>But, ah, what does "capped" mean? I read that word a lot on the forums but don't know what it means. "Capped copperwood longbow" is another one I see a lot of.
This is a dangerous word. For many of the old systems (bows, shields) there is for the most part a linear progression of quality vs. skill. I.E, given two longbows, one is always better or equal to another. Shields are a little more tricky, but more or less the same.
In the new systems, the word has less meaning and people frequently use it wrongly. IM me at CaraamonDR and I'd be happy to have a conversation about it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>Robyrne4: I see those croc-skin bucklers everywhere. But, ah, what does "capped" mean? I read that word a lot on the forums but don't know what it means. "Capped copperwood longbow" is another one I see a lot of.
"Capped" means different things to different people. In the context of crocodile-skin bucklers, it normally means "best possible protection with the lowest possible weight." For bows, it normally means "best possible balance and power" for the material.
The term "capped" should be avoided for most other items, because focusing on one particular stat often involves a trade-off.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
"Capped" means different things to different people. In the context of crocodile-skin bucklers, it normally means "best possible protection with the lowest possible weight." For bows, it normally means "best possible balance and power" for the material.
The term "capped" should be avoided for most other items, because focusing on one particular stat often involves a trade-off.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
>>Somewhere I read that in MO situations, shield is the best. Followed by parry, followed by evasion. Guess I was wrong, heh.
Parry is the best in MO situations.
Shield is the least penalized by bad balance.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Parry is the best in MO situations.
Shield is the least penalized by bad balance.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>Parry is the best in MO situations.
I would say this is only true for upper ranks, or a turning point at some unknown rank? I'm not positive, I do know parry is worse sub-100 ranks (with other defensive skills around 100) in pretty much any situation.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
I would say this is only true for upper ranks, or a turning point at some unknown rank? I'm not positive, I do know parry is worse sub-100 ranks (with other defensive skills around 100) in pretty much any situation.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>Parry is the best in MO situations.
Parry takes the least amount of penalties for any given situation (MO, encumbrance, etc).
Which isn't exactly the same thing.
Weapons for Sale:
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Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Parry takes the least amount of penalties for any given situation (MO, encumbrance, etc).
Which isn't exactly the same thing.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>I would say this is only true for upper ranks, or a turning point at some unknown rank? I'm not positive, I do know parry is worse sub-100 ranks (with other defensive skills around 100) in pretty much any situation.
It's true in the sense that that's the line Armifer and other high end good GMs have said for years after looking at the code. General player consensus is kinda notsomuch. Especially sub 100 ranks, it's useless (but really, using sub 100 anything as a basis is foolish in DR).
It doesn't help that most people use capped tanned bucklers to compare shield to parry, and bucklers are actually a medium shield template, so..unfair numbers.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
It's true in the sense that that's the line Armifer and other high end good GMs have said for years after looking at the code. General player consensus is kinda notsomuch. Especially sub 100 ranks, it's useless (but really, using sub 100 anything as a basis is foolish in DR).
It doesn't help that most people use capped tanned bucklers to compare shield to parry, and bucklers are actually a medium shield template, so..unfair numbers.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
>It doesn't help that most people use capped tanned bucklers to compare shield to parry,
Using a store-bought but still good small shield, I have noticed that sub-100 shield beats parry even with parry being ahead by about 15% ranks at around the 70-80 mark. Moving past 100, I have noticed parry being a bit less painful in near-at-level situations, but it's still kind of maybe...
>>Parry takes the least amount of penalties for any given situation (MO, encumbrance, etc).
I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
Assuming all else is equal and you're not using a claymore or something similar with terrible balance, you'll notice parry working more effectively in MO situations.
That's of course not including the 'problem' it has at low ranks.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
Assuming all else is equal and you're not using a claymore or something similar with terrible balance, you'll notice parry working more effectively in MO situations.
That's of course not including the 'problem' it has at low ranks.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>At 300 ranks, parry and shield are about equal in my experience.
When I say "all things being equal," I mean the weapon skill of the weapon you're parrying with, as well (for example: 250 parry, 250 shield, 250 2HE). You are using a decently-balanced weapon? I personally have found skill in the weapon I'm parrying with to be the big X factor.
>>I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
Beyond a certain point, yes. It's problem at "low" ranks gradually decreases but still exists for at least a couple hundred ranks.
I personally have found skill in the weapon I'm parrying with to be the big X factor.
The benefit of shield is that it has very few variables messing with it, whereas parry has things like skill in weapon, balance of weapon, etc.
When I say "all things being equal," I mean the weapon skill of the weapon you're parrying with, as well (for example: 250 parry, 250 shield, 250 2HE). You are using a decently-balanced weapon? I personally have found skill in the weapon I'm parrying with to be the big X factor.
>>I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
Beyond a certain point, yes. It's problem at "low" ranks gradually decreases but still exists for at least a couple hundred ranks.
I personally have found skill in the weapon I'm parrying with to be the big X factor.
The benefit of shield is that it has very few variables messing with it, whereas parry has things like skill in weapon, balance of weapon, etc.
>>I personally have found skill in the weapon I'm parrying with to be the big X factor.
I haven't.
I can barely tell the difference between parrying with my HE and my 2HE (which is over 800 ranks behind HE and less balanced). That is when hunting against a critter somewhat at the edge of my skill (if I sit and let 4 intercessors attack + gain balance w/o buffs they will start hitting me). I noticed absolutely no difference between my ability to block intercessors with shield and my ability to parry with 2HE. Of course, my shield is a good 60 ranks behind parry but it only shows that these parry 'penalties' tend to be greatly exaggerated.
Balance of weapon would be the biggest factor IMO, but even so I can do just fine with poorly balanced HE weapons versus decently. Can't tell the difference. Regardless, bringing up drawbacks to the particular skill doesn't contend with the point. I can easily bring up similar drawbacks with the shield skill (less protection on shields, weaker strength stats, etc..)
In the end, the Parry skill is the best in MO situations. I recently created a new character and didn't think I saw as huge of a problem with parrying at lower levels as people make it out to be, but I'd have to really study it and see.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I haven't.
I can barely tell the difference between parrying with my HE and my 2HE (which is over 800 ranks behind HE and less balanced). That is when hunting against a critter somewhat at the edge of my skill (if I sit and let 4 intercessors attack + gain balance w/o buffs they will start hitting me). I noticed absolutely no difference between my ability to block intercessors with shield and my ability to parry with 2HE. Of course, my shield is a good 60 ranks behind parry but it only shows that these parry 'penalties' tend to be greatly exaggerated.
Balance of weapon would be the biggest factor IMO, but even so I can do just fine with poorly balanced HE weapons versus decently. Can't tell the difference. Regardless, bringing up drawbacks to the particular skill doesn't contend with the point. I can easily bring up similar drawbacks with the shield skill (less protection on shields, weaker strength stats, etc..)
In the end, the Parry skill is the best in MO situations. I recently created a new character and didn't think I saw as huge of a problem with parrying at lower levels as people make it out to be, but I'd have to really study it and see.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>In the end, the Parry skill is the best in MO situations.
I find the exact opposite is true for me, parry is a good way to get myself killed against 4 mobs where shield will keep me from taking a scratch. This is surely due to me being weapons tertiary and armor secondary, and not that you are wrong - although it does make me wonder just how advantageous parry really is for MO situations assuming equal ranks
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I find the exact opposite is true for me, parry is a good way to get myself killed against 4 mobs where shield will keep me from taking a scratch. This is surely due to me being weapons tertiary and armor secondary, and not that you are wrong - although it does make me wonder just how advantageous parry really is for MO situations assuming equal ranks
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Shield is good because its defensive value stays pretty consistent no matter how you're fighting - only way I can survive moonskin transformation is hit shield stance and pray.
Parry is more effective rank-per-rank than shield, though - if your parry is a lot lower than say, shield then you will definitely notice a difference between the two, but parry does more for less.
The reason that you see what you see, Apu is IMO because parry takes bigger defense penalties for combos than shield - I can whirlwind something that apps like definitely less skilled and be ok with shield stance, but parry stance I get hit more. In a nutshell, if you avoid the unholy combos(sweep, lunge, etc...) parry gives more bang for your buck. Maybe you aren't recognizing the rank difference?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Parry is more effective rank-per-rank than shield, though - if your parry is a lot lower than say, shield then you will definitely notice a difference between the two, but parry does more for less.
The reason that you see what you see, Apu is IMO because parry takes bigger defense penalties for combos than shield - I can whirlwind something that apps like definitely less skilled and be ok with shield stance, but parry stance I get hit more. In a nutshell, if you avoid the unholy combos(sweep, lunge, etc...) parry gives more bang for your buck. Maybe you aren't recognizing the rank difference?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I notice a mixture of what you guys are saying. At lower ranks, parry used to be somewhat of a pain and shield was the safest way to go. I'd lock parry as fast as possible then go back to shield stance. In fact, my shield was always higher than my parry because of this. Around 200ish ranks parry started getting safer. Somewhere in the 500s, shield became noticeably less protective compared to parry (in melee situations, of course), and parry overtook it. I train with a lot of mixed armor, and find that when I stance with my shield in intercessors, I start getting chipped away at. But if I stance with parry, nothing. The only hit that gets through would be the random crit. Although I don't typically do it for stretches, I parry just fine with my terribly balanced greatsword. I still swap it out for my reasonably balanced bastie, though. And I parry with no problems with the bastie in the heavy edged grip, which happens to be like 450 ranks lower than my 2HE grip.
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
You also see a shiny scorecard and a shiny scorecard.
Obvious paths: none.
> read scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Liurilias - 747"
> read other scorec
A shiny scorecard reads:
"Zerreck - 2456"
>>Vinjince
You're forgetting what it is like below intercessor level, friend, making blanket declarations like that. While it is certainly true that, mechanically, parry is the least penalized by burden and such in an MO situation, there are too many variables to say it's always the best.
I can tell you parry is 100% worse then shield in an MO situation on my lowbie Trader.
You're forgetting what it is like below intercessor level, friend, making blanket declarations like that. While it is certainly true that, mechanically, parry is the least penalized by burden and such in an MO situation, there are too many variables to say it's always the best.
I can tell you parry is 100% worse then shield in an MO situation on my lowbie Trader.
I think size of the weapon may matter as well? I haven't done any testing with this, but I sort of remember when I tried parrying with LE it was worse than 2HE.
Anyone know if this is true? (although I may have been using an old katar with dismal balance)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Anyone know if this is true? (although I may have been using an old katar with dismal balance)
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Parrying is heavily dependent on weapon size, somewhat less dependent on weapon balance, and very slightly dependent on weapon skill from what I've seen.
Unless your entire decision making process vis-a-vis parrying is flawed, though (i.e. trying to parry with an old, unbalanced katar with very little by way of LE skill) it's probably going to work out once you're past 280 or so ranks.
Unless your entire decision making process vis-a-vis parrying is flawed, though (i.e. trying to parry with an old, unbalanced katar with very little by way of LE skill) it's probably going to work out once you're past 280 or so ranks.
>>Now if only they made superbly-balanced greatswords...
They do make soundly balanced ones, which is pretty darn good with how much damage they produce.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
They do make soundly balanced ones, which is pretty darn good with how much damage they produce.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>very slightly dependent on weapon skill
"the role of weapon skill in parry is going to be modified. Right now both are equally important, which drastically devalues the parry skill itself." -DM Dartenian
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Parrying_-_12/8/2009_-_14:59:09
Also interesting:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Parrying_-_12/8/2009_-_5:44:57
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
"the role of weapon skill in parry is going to be modified. Right now both are equally important, which drastically devalues the parry skill itself." -DM Dartenian
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Parrying_-_12/8/2009_-_14:59:09
Also interesting:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Parrying_-_12/8/2009_-_5:44:57
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>Is this information still current?
Except the time line, yes.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Except the time line, yes.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Errr. Just to be clear what I meant.
The change is coming at some point. The data given in the post is still valid for current systems.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
The change is coming at some point. The data given in the post is still valid for current systems.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>You're forgetting what it is like below intercessor level, friend, making blanket declarations like that.
Not really. The actual parry skill rank for rank (pound for pound) is the best in MO situations. It pretty much goes without saying that if Bob has 300 more ranks in shield that they'll do better in MO situations. Or that there is a problem with parry at low ranks. I did want to clear up the whole 'poorly balanced weapon variable' as well as the 'skill in weapons variable' that people seem to think are incredible penalties to the parry skill. Either way, I can list some variables against shield just as you did with parry.
>>Assuming all else is equal
I suppose that should be the main part of my argument. I just thought it was rather obvious. If not, then it looks like we're all arguing the same thing.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Not really. The actual parry skill rank for rank (pound for pound) is the best in MO situations. It pretty much goes without saying that if Bob has 300 more ranks in shield that they'll do better in MO situations. Or that there is a problem with parry at low ranks. I did want to clear up the whole 'poorly balanced weapon variable' as well as the 'skill in weapons variable' that people seem to think are incredible penalties to the parry skill. Either way, I can list some variables against shield just as you did with parry.
>>Assuming all else is equal
I suppose that should be the main part of my argument. I just thought it was rather obvious. If not, then it looks like we're all arguing the same thing.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>I haven't.
In gryphons, and with ~230ish in parry, when I parry with a light blunt weapon (~30 in the skill) I tend to have hits land a lot more often than when I parry with a light edged weapon (~230 in the skill). Both had similar balance ratings.
hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down. - GERSTEINJ2
In gryphons, and with ~230ish in parry, when I parry with a light blunt weapon (~30 in the skill) I tend to have hits land a lot more often than when I parry with a light edged weapon (~230 in the skill). Both had similar balance ratings.
hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down. - GERSTEINJ2
Absolutely, and the best way to test this is to get an app on the critter with everything you fight - I'm almost confident parry scales with weapon skill.
Weapon size figures in there somewhere, I'm sure. But it seems pretty minute in comparison to the penalties associated with a low balance weapon.
And I'm almost positive parry gets hurt worse on defense penalties for combos - but it handles MO like a champ which tends to make up for it.
Being the guy who trains all armors and all melee weapons in adults simultaneously, using a combo like whirlwind to boot, being at the point in MO where it doesn't mean anything, and hand-tweaking all of my stances to make the most out of my training(point for point), I DEFINITELY notice a difference in protection between shield and parry that doesn't account for the difference in ranks. Parry seems to be pretty dominant.
But when I whirlwind, I also notice parry takes a pretty big dip in effective defense compared to shield - which leads me to believe that defense penalties associated with combat maneuvers affect parry more than shield.
Heres the straight scoop on weapon-to-parry apps:
parry 541
evasion 490
he 535
2he 137
50 agility 56 reflex
stance parry 100 evasion 92
no buffs
juvenille armadillo appraisal
HE bastard sword:
solid/worthy
2HE bastard sword:
difficult/couldn't hope to hurt
evasion 92 parr 0
extremely skillful/somewhat skilled
400 appraisal, certain on all apps
Same sword - only real difference being weapon ranks.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Weapon size figures in there somewhere, I'm sure. But it seems pretty minute in comparison to the penalties associated with a low balance weapon.
And I'm almost positive parry gets hurt worse on defense penalties for combos - but it handles MO like a champ which tends to make up for it.
Being the guy who trains all armors and all melee weapons in adults simultaneously, using a combo like whirlwind to boot, being at the point in MO where it doesn't mean anything, and hand-tweaking all of my stances to make the most out of my training(point for point), I DEFINITELY notice a difference in protection between shield and parry that doesn't account for the difference in ranks. Parry seems to be pretty dominant.
But when I whirlwind, I also notice parry takes a pretty big dip in effective defense compared to shield - which leads me to believe that defense penalties associated with combat maneuvers affect parry more than shield.
Heres the straight scoop on weapon-to-parry apps:
parry 541
evasion 490
he 535
2he 137
50 agility 56 reflex
stance parry 100 evasion 92
no buffs
juvenille armadillo appraisal
HE bastard sword:
solid/worthy
2HE bastard sword:
difficult/couldn't hope to hurt
evasion 92 parr 0
extremely skillful/somewhat skilled
400 appraisal, certain on all apps
Same sword - only real difference being weapon ranks.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>But when I whirlwind, I also notice parry takes a pretty big dip in effective defense compared to shield - which leads me to believe that defense penalties associated with combat maneuvers affect parry more than shield.
I'm not all that into the nitty gritty of combat, but I wouldn't be surprised.
After all, we have PARRY as a combat command. We don't have BLOCK.
I have also noticed that it seems that parry (by parry stick) starts to about match shield at about 225-250. I noticed that on my Cleric and Empath. Despite having pretty similar ranks between parry/shield, I am still primarily shield stanced (generally speaking, my prefered stances is 80/2x/80) and they move along about the same rate with wasted shield exp. I stay stanced that way because shield is always applicable except by DFA/backstab, while parry can be bypassed by ranged weapons/spells/attacks.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
I'm not all that into the nitty gritty of combat, but I wouldn't be surprised.
After all, we have PARRY as a combat command. We don't have BLOCK.
I have also noticed that it seems that parry (by parry stick) starts to about match shield at about 225-250. I noticed that on my Cleric and Empath. Despite having pretty similar ranks between parry/shield, I am still primarily shield stanced (generally speaking, my prefered stances is 80/2x/80) and they move along about the same rate with wasted shield exp. I stay stanced that way because shield is always applicable except by DFA/backstab, while parry can be bypassed by ranged weapons/spells/attacks.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>Parry takes the least amount of penalties for any given situation (MO, encumbrance, etc).
Raist
>I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
>Assuming all else is equal and you're not using a claymore or something similar with terrible balance,
>That's of course not including the 'problem' it has at low ranks
Vinny Juice aka Vinjince
I think Raist's comment is more accurate. Raist's phrasing covers the problems with low balance weapons and low rank issues, both of which vin mentioned. It also covers issues with differing weapon and parry ranks, which Vin didn't mention. All in a short, simple statement. Point Raist.
Raist
>I'll repeat that parry is the best in MO situations.
>Assuming all else is equal and you're not using a claymore or something similar with terrible balance,
>That's of course not including the 'problem' it has at low ranks
Vinny Juice aka Vinjince
I think Raist's comment is more accurate. Raist's phrasing covers the problems with low balance weapons and low rank issues, both of which vin mentioned. It also covers issues with differing weapon and parry ranks, which Vin didn't mention. All in a short, simple statement. Point Raist.
>I can barely tell the difference between parrying with my HE and my 2HE (which is over 800 ranks behind HE and less balanced). That is when hunting against a critter somewhat at the edge of my skill (if I sit and let 4 intercessors attack + gain balance w/o buffs they will start hitting me).
I can tell you that this statement is definitely not right.
I look back through logs every time I die, which is more and more rare (once a week now? scripting 24/7). Most deaths occur while working shield (armor tert).
As for the parry deaths, I spend much more time parrying with a scimitar (ME primary). While working LT, I have a halberd in hand (I get halberd ranks using ambush slash while training LT), which is much lower around 700 ranks. Although I spend less time parrying with halberd, almost all of my deaths while parrying are with the halberd in hand, not the scimitar. I never die while holding a scimitar and parrying. It's probably been more than six months since such a thing happened. Can't remember it.
Maybe your sample is too small to see the difference? I think it's definitely there.
>I find the exact opposite is true for me, parry is a good way to get myself killed against 4 mobs where shield will keep me from taking a scratch. This is surely due to me being weapons tertiary and armor secondary, and not that you are wrong - although it does make me wonder just how advantageous parry really is for MO situations assuming equal ranks
Ignoring low rank anomaly, and assuming decent balanced weapon and weapon ranks on par with parry ranks, parry is definitely better than shield at equal ranks, against melee attacks. Lots of disclaimers...but yeah parry has a small, small niche.
I can tell you that this statement is definitely not right.
I look back through logs every time I die, which is more and more rare (once a week now? scripting 24/7). Most deaths occur while working shield (armor tert).
As for the parry deaths, I spend much more time parrying with a scimitar (ME primary). While working LT, I have a halberd in hand (I get halberd ranks using ambush slash while training LT), which is much lower around 700 ranks. Although I spend less time parrying with halberd, almost all of my deaths while parrying are with the halberd in hand, not the scimitar. I never die while holding a scimitar and parrying. It's probably been more than six months since such a thing happened. Can't remember it.
Maybe your sample is too small to see the difference? I think it's definitely there.
>I find the exact opposite is true for me, parry is a good way to get myself killed against 4 mobs where shield will keep me from taking a scratch. This is surely due to me being weapons tertiary and armor secondary, and not that you are wrong - although it does make me wonder just how advantageous parry really is for MO situations assuming equal ranks
Ignoring low rank anomaly, and assuming decent balanced weapon and weapon ranks on par with parry ranks, parry is definitely better than shield at equal ranks, against melee attacks. Lots of disclaimers...but yeah parry has a small, small niche.
If I was to speculate on why people would have more problems at lower rank with Parry than they do with Shield it would be for these reasons:
A shield's protection has an absolute floor. If your stats don't even meet basic protection on a shield(very likely at low circle), you'll still get basic protection from it. Stats with shield moreso determine your ability to utilize the protection of the shield, and cap at a certain point.
Effective parrying ability with a weapon does not have a floor, but conversely it also does not have a ceiling(hence better performance at higher ranks). If you pumped relevant parrying stats to high levels at low ranks, I bet you'd start to see the disparity between the two.
If you could pump relevant parrying stats to high levels at lower ranks, imo parry would trump shield pretty easily. I've melee'd enough shield users to tell you that parry is clearly the better melee defense at high rank.
Just my two cents.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
A shield's protection has an absolute floor. If your stats don't even meet basic protection on a shield(very likely at low circle), you'll still get basic protection from it. Stats with shield moreso determine your ability to utilize the protection of the shield, and cap at a certain point.
Effective parrying ability with a weapon does not have a floor, but conversely it also does not have a ceiling(hence better performance at higher ranks). If you pumped relevant parrying stats to high levels at low ranks, I bet you'd start to see the disparity between the two.
If you could pump relevant parrying stats to high levels at lower ranks, imo parry would trump shield pretty easily. I've melee'd enough shield users to tell you that parry is clearly the better melee defense at high rank.
Just my two cents.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>>Just my two cents.
You got it mostly right. First remember, evasion is king. Its the primary defense skill thats always checked first, parry and shield only pick up the remainder.
>>A shield's protection has an absolute floor. If your stats don't even meet basic protection on a shield(very likely at low circle), you'll still get basic protection from it. Stats with shield moreso determine your ability to utilize the protection of the shield, and cap at a certain point.
This is absolutely right, the "floor" of the shield offers great protection regardless of your skill and this protection is noticeable, however, at later ranks what happens is the penalty to evasion due to shield hindrance ends up being larger than the protection offered by the shield thus the shield penalizes itself.
>>Effective parrying ability with a weapon does not have a floor, but conversely it also does not have a ceiling(hence better performance at higher ranks). If you pumped relevant parrying stats to high levels at low ranks, I bet you'd start to see the disparity between the two.
Parry has some odd factors that play against it, first off weapon balance is important and also weapon skill need to be trained to effectively parry right making the parry skill itself more of an amplifier than really a defensive skill on its own. But parry imposes no hindrance to your evasion so as your stats and skills grow so to does your ability to parry grow exponentially and unhindered.
It sounds similar to what you said, but the main difference is that one hinders your evasion thus nerfing yourself, the other doesn't.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
You got it mostly right. First remember, evasion is king. Its the primary defense skill thats always checked first, parry and shield only pick up the remainder.
>>A shield's protection has an absolute floor. If your stats don't even meet basic protection on a shield(very likely at low circle), you'll still get basic protection from it. Stats with shield moreso determine your ability to utilize the protection of the shield, and cap at a certain point.
This is absolutely right, the "floor" of the shield offers great protection regardless of your skill and this protection is noticeable, however, at later ranks what happens is the penalty to evasion due to shield hindrance ends up being larger than the protection offered by the shield thus the shield penalizes itself.
>>Effective parrying ability with a weapon does not have a floor, but conversely it also does not have a ceiling(hence better performance at higher ranks). If you pumped relevant parrying stats to high levels at low ranks, I bet you'd start to see the disparity between the two.
Parry has some odd factors that play against it, first off weapon balance is important and also weapon skill need to be trained to effectively parry right making the parry skill itself more of an amplifier than really a defensive skill on its own. But parry imposes no hindrance to your evasion so as your stats and skills grow so to does your ability to parry grow exponentially and unhindered.
It sounds similar to what you said, but the main difference is that one hinders your evasion thus nerfing yourself, the other doesn't.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
