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Reading some of the old posts Warbie started about parry and what is now known as 'autostance' made me wonder about something:
In real life watching your opponent change his or her stance is a huge, huge deal and part of how Appraisal works in the game right now when you APPRAISE a critter.
Why can't we use APPRAISE and/or ANALYZE to notice the stance of our opponent actively and have the skill (with some kind of contest) tell us passively with varying degrees of accuracy when our opponent changes his/her stance? I can't think of an IC reason why we can't read our opponent's body language in a fight.
Again, this happens constantly in real fights and I'd like to have a chance to do what feels natural in DR PvP. That said, critters that change their stance under certain conditions would be pretty freaking cool as well.
Autostance makes this pointless. You appraise someone is stanced to parry and so use an unparryable attack like throw or shoot, their parry automatically shifts over to evasion.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
Right.... I imagine the way things are leaves the players who have experienced real combat scratching their heads. The Appraise thing makes more sense to me than the way autostance and defense currently works. Yeah, its a game but the appeal of the combat, IMO, is the realism- playing intuitively and doing what feels natural rather than constantly crunching numbers like so many RPGs make you do. When I see a combat organization's meetings in a game start to look and sound more like a Microsoft convention going over the latest software rather than a meeting of warriors.... I walk away.
It is what it is but I think the system is far from fleshed out. This may be a more realistic, and thus more immersive and thus more fun, direction to go.
It is what it is but I think the system is far from fleshed out. This may be a more realistic, and thus more immersive and thus more fun, direction to go.
It was like this for years and just recently changed. Sometimes gameplay > Realism. This is one of those cases. I highly doubt someone is going to revert that change that has had an almost universal positive response for the sake of "realism".
I use quotes because arguing realism as a reason for anything in a game with resurrections, fire conjuring, and teleportation is something I take with a grain of salt. You could just as easily argue for the current system by saying adventurers are the top 0.5 percent of people in the world skillwise and things the average person would have to think about like that in combat, they are capable of doing on instinct because they are so awesome. .
I have no idea what kind of combat meetings you're going to that sound like you described but I would say they are doing it wrong.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
I use quotes because arguing realism as a reason for anything in a game with resurrections, fire conjuring, and teleportation is something I take with a grain of salt. You could just as easily argue for the current system by saying adventurers are the top 0.5 percent of people in the world skillwise and things the average person would have to think about like that in combat, they are capable of doing on instinct because they are so awesome. .
I have no idea what kind of combat meetings you're going to that sound like you described but I would say they are doing it wrong.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
Sure, gameplay should win. I also know that I'm a bit weird so often what appeals to the masses is going to turn me off and vice versa.
The realism of DR's physical combat is very much what drew me initially to the game to even begin with: anatomical damage is very impressive to me when fancy console games have failed to come close to touching it, relying on abstract numbers instead -still-. Every time I see a hit point bar I roll my eyes. Implementing realistically the ideas of balance, position, and fatigue is far more natural than counting hit points and saying/button pressing "I change weapons, then swing again". I'm willing to back down from my advocation of realism if it bothers everyone else but honestly I'd rather try to make it as natural as possible- and in combat you read your opponent -constantly- and take advantage of those observations. It seems removing the ability to do just that is a step backwards. On a far less important yet related note I initially took up the balanced quarterstaff in part due to the ability of paladins to parry pole ranged missile attacks- I was a little shocked when I suddenly read one day that was gone. I don't have a solution yet to the autostance thing regarding all of this stuff but I'm willing to think on it and toss a few things out for everyone else to brainstorm with too. There has to be a happier medium here between gameplay and immersion.
The meetings I refer to were not Dragonrealms meetings but those of other games. So far, like I mentioned in regards to the initial draw, DR meetings I have experienced are roleplayed well and do actually feel like actual warriors discussing battle instead of mathletes discussing point strategy.
It just feels to me like you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to analyze an opponent and figure out the right attacks to exploit a weakness, you have ANALYZE and tactics which accomplish exactly that.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
>>in combat you read your opponent -constantly- and take advantage of those observations.
Just because you don't type a literal command doesn't mean your character isn't doing it. To me, that's where the roleplay part comes into play. You don't have to manually make sure your character eats and sleeps, but your character still does it. =
>>and in combat you read your opponent -constantly- and take advantage of those observations.
And you are. You're just manually telling your character to do so. And, if you wanted to, that's what ANALYZE does.
>>I was a little shocked when I suddenly read one day that was gone. I don't have a solution yet to the autostance thing regarding all of this stuff but I'm willing to think on it and toss a few things out for everyone else to brainstorm with too. There has to be a happier medium here between gameplay and immersion.
It barely worked when it was here. Autostance is better.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Just because you don't type a literal command doesn't mean your character isn't doing it. To me, that's where the roleplay part comes into play. You don't have to manually make sure your character eats and sleeps, but your character still does it. =
>>and in combat you read your opponent -constantly- and take advantage of those observations.
And you are. You're just manually telling your character to do so. And, if you wanted to, that's what ANALYZE does.
>>I was a little shocked when I suddenly read one day that was gone. I don't have a solution yet to the autostance thing regarding all of this stuff but I'm willing to think on it and toss a few things out for everyone else to brainstorm with too. There has to be a happier medium here between gameplay and immersion.
It barely worked when it was here. Autostance is better.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Those are some pretty good points. Alright, I'll back off this one. My parting thought on the topic is that realism, at least for the physical aspects, is incredibly important to me as a player. It is the reason I started playing DR. The RP kept me here, but the realism in combat brought me here.
Thanks for the feedback. Nobody bats a 1000, eh? :)
Thanks for the feedback. Nobody bats a 1000, eh? :)
Autostance is a good thing - can't react via text as quickly as you can in real life, so assuming that your character would do his/her best to adjust stance on the fly is just great all around.
That said, I would like to see some ability to force stance change on an opponent. In a real fight, that's a huge part of what a maneuver like FEINT would be all about: tricking your opponent into being aggressive and leaving himself open. Right now DR tries to approximate this with the "You are overwhelming your opponent" or "Your opponent is in a better position" comparisons, giving everyone an idea of when to do more defensive commands or more offensive commands. This system works well enough, but could use a lot of improvement.
I believe combat should, in an ideal game, be primarily about jockeying for position. Block after parry after dodge until eventually someone gets enough of a window to land a solid hit. All it really should take to lose a fight is one hard mace to the face. Let's face it - getting hacked over and over again by medieval weaponry is more than just a little silly. The vast majority of any fight should be primarily about trying to maneuver into that "You are overwhelming your opponent" position (which should be a much harder condition to achieve.) At this point, you should be pretty much set up to make the killing blow.
But re-writing the combat system like that really shouldn't be a priority, imo. There are other more important things to get done first.
That said, I would like to see some ability to force stance change on an opponent. In a real fight, that's a huge part of what a maneuver like FEINT would be all about: tricking your opponent into being aggressive and leaving himself open. Right now DR tries to approximate this with the "You are overwhelming your opponent" or "Your opponent is in a better position" comparisons, giving everyone an idea of when to do more defensive commands or more offensive commands. This system works well enough, but could use a lot of improvement.
I believe combat should, in an ideal game, be primarily about jockeying for position. Block after parry after dodge until eventually someone gets enough of a window to land a solid hit. All it really should take to lose a fight is one hard mace to the face. Let's face it - getting hacked over and over again by medieval weaponry is more than just a little silly. The vast majority of any fight should be primarily about trying to maneuver into that "You are overwhelming your opponent" position (which should be a much harder condition to achieve.) At this point, you should be pretty much set up to make the killing blow.
But re-writing the combat system like that really shouldn't be a priority, imo. There are other more important things to get done first.
...it basically is already like this. Hunting you don't notice it really because you tend to not be on the bleeding edge of skill where you neeeeed to be in overwhelming position to land a kill, but PvP is definitely like this already. You jockey for position using both normal maneuvers and tactics to be in a better position to penetrate defenses and do more damage.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
"You jockey for position using both normal maneuvers and tactics to be in a better position to penetrate defenses and do more damage."
Sure, you do more damage, but being in an overwhelming position usually isn't actually very overwhelming. It means you'll land hits, but most of the time those hits are pretty underwhelming (whacking someone in the face 10 times before they start to bleed.) Even if your opponent is prone or kneeling, or stunned, hitting really hard can still be really problematic unless you've already weakened them with the proverbial 1,000 paper cuts.
Maybe your experience is different than mine. I should note that I've seen a couple exceptions to this: TM spells usually hit quite hard when they do hit, as do two handers and crossbows. As it should be, on those. Most of the time, though, I feel the primary purpose of any attack should be to position yourself for a killing/crippling blow, even with small weapons, rather than slowly wounding them bit by bit with a score of connecting attacks.
It's all minor stuff, though, like I said before. More important things to develop.
Sure, you do more damage, but being in an overwhelming position usually isn't actually very overwhelming. It means you'll land hits, but most of the time those hits are pretty underwhelming (whacking someone in the face 10 times before they start to bleed.) Even if your opponent is prone or kneeling, or stunned, hitting really hard can still be really problematic unless you've already weakened them with the proverbial 1,000 paper cuts.
Maybe your experience is different than mine. I should note that I've seen a couple exceptions to this: TM spells usually hit quite hard when they do hit, as do two handers and crossbows. As it should be, on those. Most of the time, though, I feel the primary purpose of any attack should be to position yourself for a killing/crippling blow, even with small weapons, rather than slowly wounding them bit by bit with a score of connecting attacks.
It's all minor stuff, though, like I said before. More important things to develop.
I find that being in an overwhelming position is pretty overwhelming; you get one or two hits in and then you're basically going to stun, and then it's basically game over. I think it's fine as far as balance goes because it'd be pretty not-fun to have someone get overwhelming and then insta-lose.
I mostly take overwhelming position to mean "You're going to win shortly unless they immediately do something to correct this" rather than "FINISH HIM".
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
I mostly take overwhelming position to mean "You're going to win shortly unless they immediately do something to correct this" rather than "FINISH HIM".
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
I cant not chime In that DR has the most glarringly unrealistic combat system I've ever seen. There's not a single damage message that is physically possible. Weapons don't work that way and bodies don't work that way. Its hilariously cinematic and I love it but no fight ever looked like this!
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Every time I see Dragon Age combat for the first time that day I honestly break out in out-loud laughter. Seriously.
Ya know, this effect in DR seems to be highlighted when playing a gnome. I should start keeping some of particularly funny messaging I get when Sylvaeus shield bashes an ogre and things like that. I'll name it "Dragon Ball G"
[P.S. G = Gnome]
And yeah..... DR adventures are all superheroes. How many grenades can Spiderman take? As many as it takes to be cool. How much can your character carry with no burden? However much it takes to be cool. ;)
On a serious note... wouldn't attacks from gnomes favor the legs more and the head less unless fighting another short creature? I suspect 'creature size' as a concept is not part of the game engine (or is only a very small party anyway) at this time. I do recall Kodius mulling about rectifying some of this in the crafting system.
Ya know, this effect in DR seems to be highlighted when playing a gnome. I should start keeping some of particularly funny messaging I get when Sylvaeus shield bashes an ogre and things like that. I'll name it "Dragon Ball G"
[P.S. G = Gnome]
And yeah..... DR adventures are all superheroes. How many grenades can Spiderman take? As many as it takes to be cool. How much can your character carry with no burden? However much it takes to be cool. ;)
On a serious note... wouldn't attacks from gnomes favor the legs more and the head less unless fighting another short creature? I suspect 'creature size' as a concept is not part of the game engine (or is only a very small party anyway) at this time. I do recall Kodius mulling about rectifying some of this in the crafting system.
>I suspect 'creature size' as a concept is not part of the game engine (or is only a very small party anyway) at this time.
I am constantly surprised at the weird stuff DR keeps track of, and the even weirder stuff that it doesn't. I came across an old post about the Foraging system the other day and the list of factors was... ridiculous.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
I am constantly surprised at the weird stuff DR keeps track of, and the even weirder stuff that it doesn't. I came across an old post about the Foraging system the other day and the list of factors was... ridiculous.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Creature size is, in fact, something we track and at least pre combat 3.0 it had a DRAMATIC influence on the creature's effectiveness. I'm not familiar enough with the combat 3.0 code to know how large a factor it is now offhand.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
At present it appears Critter Size only affects the ability to shove/tackle them, and some Force of Impact calculations for stunning.
Not sure if it ever did more in 2.0. Interesting idea on the chance to hit locations, though I'm not sure how it would work out in practice. Having a harder time hitting the chest/head as a gnome would annoy a lot of people I'm thinking.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Not sure if it ever did more in 2.0. Interesting idea on the chance to hit locations, though I'm not sure how it would work out in practice. Having a harder time hitting the chest/head as a gnome would annoy a lot of people I'm thinking.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
A big thanks for the info, Kodius. This one has been gnawing in my mind for a while now.
Okay, so..... as far as I know....
The benefit of striking a specific location is 1) Headshots stun more easily 2) You get to build up injury to a specific part and thus increase stuns inflicted and eventually vitality loss 3) if you hit the arms/hands enough they drop something and if you hit the legs enough they hit the ground
When you DO NOT specify a target, does the combat engine pick one randomly? If not- what sort of things (that you are allowed to say, of course) goes into deciding that?
If a gnome or an Olvi had a significantly improved chances of building up injury onto the legs in order to render an opponent -prone- I would consider that balanced with a reduced ability to stun using headshots. 'Prone' involves some pretty nasty penalties- I often grapple then Rebuke a critter to backtrain weapons and once this scenario occurs in a spar I begin to expect victory.
Just put in a numerical slant to balance out the tactical advantages of each target location, right?
If I don't have enough skill to target a specific body part then the game automatically leaning my strikes downward still pays off for me in the long run. I get to build up injury to the legs with more reliability in exchange for fewer uber-outright-stuns.
That said, this would make hitting gnomes and halfling in the head easier for most critters and opponents. Then again, unless you consider the ease of ducking head shots that swing to high..... it can get tricky, I bet. I could see this being balanced out and made really fun overall, though, both mechanically and for roleplaying.
Of course.... Then we get into the whole "Aren't smaller racers harder to hit overall, then" natural tangent topic which seems kinda thin ice to tread on right now for some reason. I'd advocate baby steps here, personally.
Thanks for the post, Kodius. :)
Random RP Silliness:
"Your ankles are MINE!"
"You hit em high- I'll hit em low!"
"Quick ducking like that- you're already short enough!"
"How did I get him to stop doing that, you ask? I busted his kneecaps with a glaes rod and once he was down to my level he could hear me much better, it appears. It all worked out well enough."
