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You can't fail a flee unless you get stunned, webbed, immobilized etc...
If you can type in hide and it would work, except for the fact you are trying to flee, then you will flee just fine.
Too easy and you learn crap, too hard and you learn crap, you want the best escape possible which only occurs at your escaping level.
Now how exactly that is calculated, I don't know, but I'm fairly confident polos are not the 100s range.
I am --- Navak
<<too hard and you learn crap>>
<<Boars will teach you more than polo's that for sure but it's still small compared to what it could be in another area.>>
I don't believe people should be forced into lower hunting grounds to backtrain a skill when Simu has been entirely responsible for it's almost non-existant development over the last 10 years.
Oderint dum metuant.
<<Boars will teach you more than polo's that for sure but it's still small compared to what it could be in another area.>>
I don't believe people should be forced into lower hunting grounds to backtrain a skill when Simu has been entirely responsible for it's almost non-existant development over the last 10 years.
Oderint dum metuant.
>>I don't believe people should be forced into lower hunting grounds to backtrain a skill when Simu has been entirely responsible for it's almost non-existant development over the last 10 years.
If you read the rest of the thread Ssra says several times that back training is not required. If you don't want to use this command you don't have to. Also you will still learn from higher creatures just not as fast.
It's not an issue of not being able to flee either because if I read Ssra's posts correctly the only way to fail a flee is to get stunned or otherwise immobilized. If you're hunting at level this probably won't happen
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
If you read the rest of the thread Ssra says several times that back training is not required. If you don't want to use this command you don't have to. Also you will still learn from higher creatures just not as fast.
It's not an issue of not being able to flee either because if I read Ssra's posts correctly the only way to fail a flee is to get stunned or otherwise immobilized. If you're hunting at level this probably won't happen
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
>If you don't want to use this command you don't have to. Also you will still learn from higher creatures just not as fast.
I think a lot of people are trying to make FLEE into pyramids. Its just a combat option that happens to teach escaping. I can understand the desire to increase escaping ranks in preparation for justice, engagement and other changes, but lets not look to the flee verb to immediately solve all the problems with escape.
I think a lot of people are trying to make FLEE into pyramids. Its just a combat option that happens to teach escaping. I can understand the desire to increase escaping ranks in preparation for justice, engagement and other changes, but lets not look to the flee verb to immediately solve all the problems with escape.
>>I can understand the desire to increase escaping ranks in preparation for justice, engagement and other changes
I don't think that it's ever even been said that escaping will be used in the rewrite of hangback and retreat, people just assumed hence the sky is falling routine over having to "backtrain"
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
I don't think that it's ever even been said that escaping will be used in the rewrite of hangback and retreat, people just assumed hence the sky is falling routine over having to "backtrain"
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
>I don't think that it's ever even been said that escaping will be used in the rewrite of hangback and retreat, people just assumed hence the sky is falling routine over having to "backtrain"
Yeah, in general I agree about engagement. I wouldn't rule it out as a modifier until the new version is released. But new Justice, which is important to a lot of folks, magical webs (HB), and the fact that the list of broken skills is getting shorter are pretty good incentives for folks to be ahead of the change.
You're dead on with the sentiment that at this point, its a huge backtrain for many, and backtraining sucks. My point stands, that we will want to have uber escaping ranks, but flee should not be to escaping, what pyramids are to mech.
Yeah, in general I agree about engagement. I wouldn't rule it out as a modifier until the new version is released. But new Justice, which is important to a lot of folks, magical webs (HB), and the fact that the list of broken skills is getting shorter are pretty good incentives for folks to be ahead of the change.
You're dead on with the sentiment that at this point, its a huge backtrain for many, and backtraining sucks. My point stands, that we will want to have uber escaping ranks, but flee should not be to escaping, what pyramids are to mech.
<<If you read the rest of the thread Ssra says several times that back training is not required. If you don't want to use this command you don't have to. Also you will still learn from higher creatures just not as fast.>>
I don't understand why if you have the combats to survive fleeing from high level critters, you don't get commensurate experience for it. The whole idea of a "Sweet Spot" is fine when an option has been available from Day 1, but I don't agree with it when, for the most part, the majority of characters have not had a realistic option of maintaining 'at level' escaping skill through no fault of their own.
Feel free to convince me otherwise.
Oderint dum metuant.
I don't understand why if you have the combats to survive fleeing from high level critters, you don't get commensurate experience for it. The whole idea of a "Sweet Spot" is fine when an option has been available from Day 1, but I don't agree with it when, for the most part, the majority of characters have not had a realistic option of maintaining 'at level' escaping skill through no fault of their own.
Feel free to convince me otherwise.
Oderint dum metuant.
Who cares if escaping is required for all of engagement. If you haven't trained escaping(which I haven't), suck it up and either backtrain it through use of FLEE or train it up like anyone else has since before FLEE was introduced. That's what I'm going to do, though I won't be moving areas to backtrain it. You can stay at level and backtrain combat skills--it just might be a bit more risky or slow than doing it the standard way.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
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~The one who is obsessed with power.
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http://soundsoftime.tripod.com - The all New Sounds of Time
http://drleilond.tripod.com - The Story
drleilond.tripod.com/Guild_Requirements.xls - Personal Bard Guild Req Sheet
>I don't understand why if you have the combats to survive fleeing from high level critters, you don't get commensurate experience for it.
>Feel free to convince me otherwise.
Because you're not succeeding particularly fantastically against something that you have higher ranks than, and you're succeeding exceedingly well against things with more ranks. I, right now, could flee from a dobek if it wasn't facing me (or just didn't want to attack me). The skill is set up in a way that success is nearly automatic unless you are otherwise impaired by different skill checks (ie getting stunned webbed, etc). Automatic success shouldn't be granting prime experience at all times in all locations. Rather, I would say that there should be a specific way to 'train' a skill that already grants automatic success for its function, and then there's a way to just 'use' it.
-Durnil
>Feel free to convince me otherwise.
Because you're not succeeding particularly fantastically against something that you have higher ranks than, and you're succeeding exceedingly well against things with more ranks. I, right now, could flee from a dobek if it wasn't facing me (or just didn't want to attack me). The skill is set up in a way that success is nearly automatic unless you are otherwise impaired by different skill checks (ie getting stunned webbed, etc). Automatic success shouldn't be granting prime experience at all times in all locations. Rather, I would say that there should be a specific way to 'train' a skill that already grants automatic success for its function, and then there's a way to just 'use' it.
-Durnil
>>Because you're not succeeding particularly fantastically against something that you have higher ranks than, and you're succeeding exceedingly well against things with more ranks. I, right now, could flee from a dobek if it wasn't facing me (or just didn't want to attack me). The skill is set up in a way that success is nearly automatic unless you are otherwise impaired by different skill checks (ie getting stunned webbed, etc). Automatic success shouldn't be granting prime experience at all times in all locations. Rather, I would say that there should be a specific way to 'train' a skill that already grants automatic success for its function, and then there's a way to just 'use' it.
Well put, in addition it would be easily abused if escaping was learned based on critter combat level and not your own escaping (yes I know that it checks the critters weapon skill but it's still based off of your escaping skill as well). Moon Mages could enter into RF and engage and flee creatures well higher than them. Same could be done with Inviso rings for almost every other guild.
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
Well put, in addition it would be easily abused if escaping was learned based on critter combat level and not your own escaping (yes I know that it checks the critters weapon skill but it's still based off of your escaping skill as well). Moon Mages could enter into RF and engage and flee creatures well higher than them. Same could be done with Inviso rings for almost every other guild.
Strangeguard
http://www.vurtego.com/
<<I don't believe people should be forced into lower hunting grounds to backtrain a skill when Simu has been entirely responsible for it's almost non-existant development over the last 10 years.>>
Then maintain the status quo. You're not forced to use flee period, ever.
Those who choose to utilize the abilty to its fullest now have a way to train it.
You still get some experience for escaping via flee outside your range which is better to what you were getting before which was absolutely nothing.
So look at it this way ... you get something out of it just not as much as you'd like. Those who do want to get the most out of it will.
-Ssra
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Albert Einstein
Then maintain the status quo. You're not forced to use flee period, ever.
Those who choose to utilize the abilty to its fullest now have a way to train it.
You still get some experience for escaping via flee outside your range which is better to what you were getting before which was absolutely nothing.
So look at it this way ... you get something out of it just not as much as you'd like. Those who do want to get the most out of it will.
-Ssra
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Albert Einstein
>I don't understand why if you have the combats to survive fleeing from high level critters, you don't get commensurate experience for it. The whole idea of a "Sweet Spot" is fine when an option has been available from Day 1, but I don't agree with it when, for the most part, the majority of characters have not had a realistic option of maintaining 'at level' escaping skill through no fault of their own.
No, I really agree with you. If you're succeeding at fleeing but taking hits I feel like you should be learning more. Modeling it after skinning is a bad bad idea.
The way exp is granted, fleeing teaches well when running from a swarm, but not so well running from 2-3 at level creatures. For instance, I couldn't get it past muddled running from 2-3 snow goblins at melee. I almost died trying a couple times, so the risk is there. Also, my escaping is not below their level - 163 escaping, 187 evasion, and they teach weapons to 190ish (2nd tier).
So to all those people who think the problem will go away if they backtrain a lot, sorry to rain on your parade. Using fleeing to train escaping will always work better when backtraining. I don't think its viable at-level. Too bad because its a really cool release.
No, I really agree with you. If you're succeeding at fleeing but taking hits I feel like you should be learning more. Modeling it after skinning is a bad bad idea.
The way exp is granted, fleeing teaches well when running from a swarm, but not so well running from 2-3 at level creatures. For instance, I couldn't get it past muddled running from 2-3 snow goblins at melee. I almost died trying a couple times, so the risk is there. Also, my escaping is not below their level - 163 escaping, 187 evasion, and they teach weapons to 190ish (2nd tier).
So to all those people who think the problem will go away if they backtrain a lot, sorry to rain on your parade. Using fleeing to train escaping will always work better when backtraining. I don't think its viable at-level. Too bad because its a really cool release.
From what I gather, fleeing is like stealing. It's there to train if you want it, but you will never actually need it to get by. If that wasn't the case, there would be many more places to train escaping and there wouldn't be a need for an experience timer attached to the 'flee' command.
Hence, no need to backtrain. If you don't want to fool with the skill, don't.
Hence, no need to backtrain. If you don't want to fool with the skill, don't.
The problem a lot of people have is they are basing at-level on their combat skills and not the escaping ranks. Right now it's virtually impossible to fail fleeing so granting combat equivalent experience from successfully fleeing from "at level" creatures would not be a good idea as then people would just sit in thier hunting areas and flee gaining many ranks very quickly with little work. While survival prime folks have a more vested interest in training the skill as it will help us to circle. Gaining escaping experience because you get hit seems odd. I can see armor, evasion, shield , or parry as those are the contested skills. As I understand it escaping doesn't determine if you get hit; it just reduces balance and fatigue making it more likely.
Calissa's player
Calissa's player
I guess I can just set it up to be a "hard" contest and if you don't have the ranks, then you just fall over prone with a 15 second roundtime.
But hey at least it will teach you if you pass? OH wait, no one would pass because according to some of you "no one has escaping ranks."
There are a handful of people who have trained the skill to over 300. Am I to penalize those people because you didn't follow that path? No, not going to happen.
I set it up the way I did because I know most people don't have escaping up to level. I wasn't born yesterday. So find good in the fact you learn a little something and that you have a new toy to tinker with if you choose to.
-Ssra
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Albert Einstein
But hey at least it will teach you if you pass? OH wait, no one would pass because according to some of you "no one has escaping ranks."
There are a handful of people who have trained the skill to over 300. Am I to penalize those people because you didn't follow that path? No, not going to happen.
I set it up the way I did because I know most people don't have escaping up to level. I wasn't born yesterday. So find good in the fact you learn a little something and that you have a new toy to tinker with if you choose to.
-Ssra
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." -Albert Einstein
I like it.
So what, people have to backtrain. People had to backtrain for offhand weapon. People have to backtrain MO when the combat changes went live.
Backtraining is a part of DR. Certain things are forced and i rally against them but Escaping isnt one of them though i must admit i dont know how people taught themselves excaping to 300. If you want to train escape, use flee and experiment. If you dont want to learn escape by using flee, you dont have to. Use unyns, webs, graves.. whatever.
When shield came out arm-worn.. many people had terrible shield ranks.. suddenly people wanted to train shield again.. the choice is thiers, train shield to use arm-worn or dont.
There are still ways to train escaping without using flee. Just expirement. Pick up an old mace and go bash some rock trolls skulls. Its fun when you know they cant hurt you.
Flee isnt so bad. 10 minutes of your time can lock up the skill.
Im a 52nd level thief who can on a good day, hunt adana'f. Yet i'll happily go to rock trolls and learn escape for a few minutes a day because its something different. Brush up on brawling, or low weapon. Train a new ranged weapon.
If you have been trying to power circle, Flee isnt for you.
Dusk
So what, people have to backtrain. People had to backtrain for offhand weapon. People have to backtrain MO when the combat changes went live.
Backtraining is a part of DR. Certain things are forced and i rally against them but Escaping isnt one of them though i must admit i dont know how people taught themselves excaping to 300. If you want to train escape, use flee and experiment. If you dont want to learn escape by using flee, you dont have to. Use unyns, webs, graves.. whatever.
When shield came out arm-worn.. many people had terrible shield ranks.. suddenly people wanted to train shield again.. the choice is thiers, train shield to use arm-worn or dont.
There are still ways to train escaping without using flee. Just expirement. Pick up an old mace and go bash some rock trolls skulls. Its fun when you know they cant hurt you.
Flee isnt so bad. 10 minutes of your time can lock up the skill.
Im a 52nd level thief who can on a good day, hunt adana'f. Yet i'll happily go to rock trolls and learn escape for a few minutes a day because its something different. Brush up on brawling, or low weapon. Train a new ranged weapon.
If you have been trying to power circle, Flee isnt for you.
Dusk
>> There are still ways to train escaping without using flee. Just expirement. Pick up an old mace and go bash some rock trolls skulls. Its fun when you know they cant hurt you.
>> Flee isnt so bad. 10 minutes of your time can lock up the skill.
I generally agree with this line of thinking, especially because as Ssra has stated, FLEE isn't the new end-all-be-all of escaping training, and it's certainly not a requirement for the game... "learn to FLEE or you'll never be able to hunt again, ever."
However, if I were to tender a proposal, Ssra, I'd suggest perhaps adding a line to APPRAISE <creature> at the end:
"Gauging the shimmering sand goblin's prowess with its shattered-glass dagger, you believe it would be extremely difficult to escape from a melee confrontation."
This would simply be Appraisal's skill in gauging your escape skill versus the enemy's base offensive ranks; this would eliminate some of the guesswork at training escaping in this fashion, as base offensive ranks can be wildly disparate from how well they train offenses or defenses, for example.
I understand that flee is meant to be an all-out, get-out-of-dodge sort of function, so I could see how it may be counter to this point to allow a character to appraise not only how likely they are to flee from a foe, but give an appraisal reading of precisely how well a creature is likely to train the skill. Depending on the final intention of the FLEE verb, it may be reasonably undesireable to not include this kind of function, but otherwise I think it would be a nice addition; perhaps a middle ground would be to make this appraisal line take a great deal more appraisal skill than the rest of the combat appraisal to be "certain," or give a significant boost to survival primaries in gauging this kind of information, for example.
-- Reike
>search post
You search Reike's post.
It carried some whimsy, a belabored point, and Moon Mage favoritism.
You also find 2 copper coins.
>> Flee isnt so bad. 10 minutes of your time can lock up the skill.
I generally agree with this line of thinking, especially because as Ssra has stated, FLEE isn't the new end-all-be-all of escaping training, and it's certainly not a requirement for the game... "learn to FLEE or you'll never be able to hunt again, ever."
However, if I were to tender a proposal, Ssra, I'd suggest perhaps adding a line to APPRAISE <creature> at the end:
"Gauging the shimmering sand goblin's prowess with its shattered-glass dagger, you believe it would be extremely difficult to escape from a melee confrontation."
This would simply be Appraisal's skill in gauging your escape skill versus the enemy's base offensive ranks; this would eliminate some of the guesswork at training escaping in this fashion, as base offensive ranks can be wildly disparate from how well they train offenses or defenses, for example.
I understand that flee is meant to be an all-out, get-out-of-dodge sort of function, so I could see how it may be counter to this point to allow a character to appraise not only how likely they are to flee from a foe, but give an appraisal reading of precisely how well a creature is likely to train the skill. Depending on the final intention of the FLEE verb, it may be reasonably undesireable to not include this kind of function, but otherwise I think it would be a nice addition; perhaps a middle ground would be to make this appraisal line take a great deal more appraisal skill than the rest of the combat appraisal to be "certain," or give a significant boost to survival primaries in gauging this kind of information, for example.
-- Reike
>search post
You search Reike's post.
It carried some whimsy, a belabored point, and Moon Mage favoritism.
You also find 2 copper coins.
| However, if I were to tender a proposal, Ssra, I'd suggest perhaps adding a line to APPRAISE <creature> at the end: |
| "Gauging the shimmering sand goblin's prowess with its shattered-glass dagger, you believe it would be extremely difficult to escape from a melee confrontation." |
| This would simply be Appraisal's skill in gauging your escape skill versus the enemy's base offensive ranks |
Dude, best idea. Ever.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
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http://soundsoftime.tripod.com - The all New Sounds of Time
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drleilond.tripod.com/Guild_Requirements.xls - Personal Bard Guild Req Sheet
>It would be cool to expand appraisal even more to see how perceptive a critter is for the more stealth-inclined fighters.
I don't think that this really fits appraisal. I can't tell how well somebody can see me by looking at them unless they were to have glasses and I to break them. Then it's pretty conclusive that they now can't see me clearly.
-Durnil
I don't think that this really fits appraisal. I can't tell how well somebody can see me by looking at them unless they were to have glasses and I to break them. Then it's pretty conclusive that they now can't see me clearly.
-Durnil
