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Dart,
Alright, I don't know the skill caps for these guys, mostly because they're new and I'm not sure anybody has figured them out yet, but I'm seeing an issue with a test I've been doing.
I rolled a commoner and ran some tests. Rats -> musk hogs -> large hogs -> forager goblins all went fine.
Currently - 40 ranks in evasion, armor. 35 parry and shield. 36 multi. 16 reflex.
Forager goblins no longer teach unless I can get like six on me and sit and wait about 10-15 minutes to lock once.
Scavenger goblins, spiders, wasps, zombie goblins, and deer, eels all get hard hits, stuns, and kill me quickly. Fell hogs are okay but it takes four of them and about 15 minutes to learn anything.
Sooo I'm wondering if any others have found this? Is there a gap? Where should one go? It seemed like the idea was to not have a gap.
I was using bone armor, and was very hindered. No burden. Balance, fatigue just fine. Scavenger goblins would hit my shield a few times, but a few swings later, eventually, they'd hit and almost always a hard hit that stuns. After that, forget about it. Also, one scavenger doesn't teach me, need three - which is a death warrant.
The bone armor was from the goblins themselves. I was unhindered in three pieces, and insignificantly hindered in one piece. But, very hindered overall.. I guess any player using leather or cloth at 40 ranks perhaps might do okay, but anybody else... yeah...
> I was using bone armor, and was very hindered
This is unfortunately probably a large part of your problem -- been there a lot with my baby cleric as well.
The way our current combat system works, hindrance can be a real killer at low levels, especially after you get past some of the "newbie padding" that's built in to the extreme low end to help new players survive. Bone armor is one of the most difficult to start in because it has very high hindrance but is focused more on elemental defense than physical (ie it protects better against fire, cold, electricity better than most armors, but not so good against impact, pierce, and slice).
Burden can also be a problem. Even when you show a burden level of "none" you can still potentially be taking a fairly tangible evasion penalty. Because the encumbrance rating is actually a range based on the total weight you can carry, it's far more likely you'll be in the high end of "none" at low levels (and therefor getting a larger penalty) than someone with much higher stats.
The best I can say right now is that we are very aware of these issues, and the dodge/parry/balance updates I released yesterday are part of a long-term overhaul to make defenses (especially armor) more meaningful, bring in-your-face melee more in line with ranged (including spells) and stealth combat, and make combat scale better across the levels. The latter is going to be the most difficult, but is also probably the highest priority. Our current system has some serious problems at both the very low end (15 ranks to around 100 ranks, give or take) and the high end (500+ ranks) that we need to resolve.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
This is unfortunately probably a large part of your problem -- been there a lot with my baby cleric as well.
The way our current combat system works, hindrance can be a real killer at low levels, especially after you get past some of the "newbie padding" that's built in to the extreme low end to help new players survive. Bone armor is one of the most difficult to start in because it has very high hindrance but is focused more on elemental defense than physical (ie it protects better against fire, cold, electricity better than most armors, but not so good against impact, pierce, and slice).
Burden can also be a problem. Even when you show a burden level of "none" you can still potentially be taking a fairly tangible evasion penalty. Because the encumbrance rating is actually a range based on the total weight you can carry, it's far more likely you'll be in the high end of "none" at low levels (and therefor getting a larger penalty) than someone with much higher stats.
The best I can say right now is that we are very aware of these issues, and the dodge/parry/balance updates I released yesterday are part of a long-term overhaul to make defenses (especially armor) more meaningful, bring in-your-face melee more in line with ranged (including spells) and stealth combat, and make combat scale better across the levels. The latter is going to be the most difficult, but is also probably the highest priority. Our current system has some serious problems at both the very low end (15 ranks to around 100 ranks, give or take) and the high end (500+ ranks) that we need to resolve.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
You probably don't need to wear more than torso armor at those ranks. I've found that it is better to avoid getting hit than to try and protect yourself from getting hit, in general, at those levels. Try removing some armor and see if that helps?
I haven't been able to test out a new character in the method you are describing, but in my experiences less = more in terms of armor at the low end.
GENT
I haven't been able to test out a new character in the method you are describing, but in my experiences less = more in terms of armor at the low end.
GENT
Thanks for the posts.
Right now I'm working towards leather armor, since Bone doesn't seem all that great of protection, but with high hinderance. Besides, imagine this one will be fairly stealthy.
I'm not really concerned with not doing greatly, just trying to not get stuck in some gap where I can't learn.
Wasps either don't teach or hurt me. What I'm realizing is I just have to be able to take them out as 3-4 come into the room so I stay at about 3 critters. If I do this scavengers usually don't kill me. Perhaps I can get shield to about 45 this way and then go to wasps. And yeah, parrying wasps is a Bad Idea! If wasps can get me to 50ish I may be able to hang it in eels for a good while.
Right now I'm working towards leather armor, since Bone doesn't seem all that great of protection, but with high hinderance. Besides, imagine this one will be fairly stealthy.
I'm not really concerned with not doing greatly, just trying to not get stuck in some gap where I can't learn.
Wasps either don't teach or hurt me. What I'm realizing is I just have to be able to take them out as 3-4 come into the room so I stay at about 3 critters. If I do this scavengers usually don't kill me. Perhaps I can get shield to about 45 this way and then go to wasps. And yeah, parrying wasps is a Bad Idea! If wasps can get me to 50ish I may be able to hang it in eels for a good while.
>>If wasps can get me to 50ish I may be able to hang it in eels for a good while.
I need to do some serious testing. I know for sure that I hunted eels with way fewer ranks than 50. I had weapons and defences at or just over 35 ranks, as this was the advice given to me. This was with two different characters. One wore leather with a balaclava (LC) and the other ran with a LC/HC combo. Have eels changed that much in the last year or so?
I need to do some serious testing. I know for sure that I hunted eels with way fewer ranks than 50. I had weapons and defences at or just over 35 ranks, as this was the advice given to me. This was with two different characters. One wore leather with a balaclava (LC) and the other ran with a LC/HC combo. Have eels changed that much in the last year or so?
Differences in success in eels can be more than just weapons and defensive ranks. It can be guild, buffs, stats, and simple scripting ability or lack thereof.
There are people who go into eels with low 30's and never die, and there's those that go in there with high 40's and die all the time.
In general, around 40 ranks in combats seems to be a decent starting point, then adjust for the above mentioned items.
________________________________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
There are people who go into eels with low 30's and never die, and there's those that go in there with high 40's and die all the time.
In general, around 40 ranks in combats seems to be a decent starting point, then adjust for the above mentioned items.
________________________________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
>>eels
Most likely it's related to my desire to learn defenses there by dancing with the critters. People that do alright with 35-40 ranks I imagine are constantly dispatching eels, as even 3-4 eels would seriously begin to whack at your defenses unless your multi is very much above 40 ranks.
Most likely it's related to my desire to learn defenses there by dancing with the critters. People that do alright with 35-40 ranks I imagine are constantly dispatching eels, as even 3-4 eels would seriously begin to whack at your defenses unless your multi is very much above 40 ranks.
>>People that do alright with 35-40 ranks I imagine are constantly dispatching eels
Hrm. Quite right in my case.
>>Differences in success in eels can be more than just weapons and defensive ranks. It can be guild, buffs, stats, and simple scripting ability or lack thereof.
Also a good point. So far I have had a Ranger, a Barbarian and a Thief flow through there the mid-30 rankg for anyone reading along and interested.
Hrm. Quite right in my case.
>>Differences in success in eels can be more than just weapons and defensive ranks. It can be guild, buffs, stats, and simple scripting ability or lack thereof.
Also a good point. So far I have had a Ranger, a Barbarian and a Thief flow through there the mid-30 rankg for anyone reading along and interested.
Just throwing in my couple of cents. While Foraging and Scavanger Goblins wouldn't teach for nothing, the Field Goblin/Shaman Goblin area just southwest taught well in that niche between 30-45 ranks when I then moved to eels. Plus I kept getting boxes to pick out of the deal. I wonder, are Field Goblins actually slightly harder then Scavanger/Foraging Goblins?
> I wonder, are Field Goblins actually slightly harder then Scavanger/Foraging Goblins?
Yes.
For Crossing goblins, the progression is Forager < Scavenger < Field & Shaman < goblin zombies.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
Yes.
For Crossing goblins, the progression is Forager < Scavenger < Field & Shaman < goblin zombies.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
I'm noticing a noticible gap. It could be just that I'm using three weapons at the same time(LB,LE,Brawling) but my 35 ranks of each barely move, no matter how many of the buggers I kill, and my off hand weapon doesn't move at all.
Where's the scavanger's hide out more, I usually get them to move all my stuff, though after three or four I have to go get patched up.
Stance e 90, parry 45, shield 45
inv combat
You are holding a darkly-tinted oben in your right hand and a lead-weighted wooden bola in your left hand.
You are wearing some steel-toed footwraps with silver buckles, some rough suede knee wraps affixed with sharpened peccary tusks, some black leather elbow wraps affixed with dagger blades, a pine longbow, some jagged rock crystal knuckleguards, an iron-banded parry stick with brown leather straps, a scarlet canvas-backed bone breastplate, a tiger-faced bone mask, some painted bone gauntlets, some bone vambraces with silver skull clasps, some bone greaves etched with grimacing skulls and a leather targe painted with a battle scene.
Somewhat burdened
Shield Usage: 52 76% clear Leather Armor: 40 02% clear
Cloth Armor: 43 83% clear Bone Armor: 49 35% clear
Parry Ability: 46 39% clear Multi Opponent: 45 87% clear
Light Edged: 36 19% clear Light Blunt: 37 78% clear
Brawling: 41 25% clear Offhand Weapon: 40 03% clear
Evasion: 49 07% clear
Perception, hiding, and stalking are all above thoughtfull
I get half a pulse of learning per goblin skin. Some of this could be a low mentals count.
Strength : 15 Reflex : 15
Agility : 14 Charisma : 6
Discipline : 10 Wisdom : 10
Intelligence : 8 Stamina : 15
Where's the scavanger's hide out more, I usually get them to move all my stuff, though after three or four I have to go get patched up.
Stance e 90, parry 45, shield 45
inv combat
You are holding a darkly-tinted oben in your right hand and a lead-weighted wooden bola in your left hand.
You are wearing some steel-toed footwraps with silver buckles, some rough suede knee wraps affixed with sharpened peccary tusks, some black leather elbow wraps affixed with dagger blades, a pine longbow, some jagged rock crystal knuckleguards, an iron-banded parry stick with brown leather straps, a scarlet canvas-backed bone breastplate, a tiger-faced bone mask, some painted bone gauntlets, some bone vambraces with silver skull clasps, some bone greaves etched with grimacing skulls and a leather targe painted with a battle scene.
Somewhat burdened
Shield Usage: 52 76% clear Leather Armor: 40 02% clear
Cloth Armor: 43 83% clear Bone Armor: 49 35% clear
Parry Ability: 46 39% clear Multi Opponent: 45 87% clear
Light Edged: 36 19% clear Light Blunt: 37 78% clear
Brawling: 41 25% clear Offhand Weapon: 40 03% clear
Evasion: 49 07% clear
Perception, hiding, and stalking are all above thoughtfull
I get half a pulse of learning per goblin skin. Some of this could be a low mentals count.
Strength : 15 Reflex : 15
Agility : 14 Charisma : 6
Discipline : 10 Wisdom : 10
Intelligence : 8 Stamina : 15
>>For Crossing goblins, the progression is Forager < Scavenger < Field & Shaman < goblin zombies.
>>- GM Dartenian
>>PS Haven fields teach me less, that's why I went to try these guys.
I wondered about this too, Dart. I thought the goblin zombies were supposed to be akin to louts. Or did I misread that and you meant that the Foragers were the hardest?
>>- GM Dartenian
>>PS Haven fields teach me less, that's why I went to try these guys.
I wondered about this too, Dart. I thought the goblin zombies were supposed to be akin to louts. Or did I misread that and you meant that the Foragers were the hardest?
there's area with them close to the madmen area, they might be different creatures with the same name
::shrugs::
--
Treat empaths with respect, you'll live longer.
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
::shrugs::
--
Treat empaths with respect, you'll live longer.
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
Dart is the type of person who will always peek outside the window to make sure of his answer before answering a stupid question such as "Is the sky blue?". A reasonable person would simply draw on the vast amount of personal experience with the sky and answer out of habit.
Jaedren will say "clear, because air is invisible" or something silly like that.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
Jaedren will say "clear, because air is invisible" or something silly like that.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
>>Where's the scavanger's hide out more, I usually get them to move all my stuff, though after three or four I have to go get patched up.
>>Stance e 90, parry 45, shield 45
I've found that splitting your stance between 2 defenses, instead of 3, is more effective. Stance evasion 100/shield 80 for shield learning, then switch to stance evasion 100/parry 80 for parry learning.
>>Stance e 90, parry 45, shield 45
I've found that splitting your stance between 2 defenses, instead of 3, is more effective. Stance evasion 100/shield 80 for shield learning, then switch to stance evasion 100/parry 80 for parry learning.
>I've found that splitting your stance between 2 defenses, instead of 3, is more effective. Stance evasion 100/shield 80 for shield learning, then switch to stance evasion 100/parry 80 for parry learning.
Thanks, Doesn't answer the question though. And I don't expect you to use my method, which does quite well, as long as I'm not using ranged or haven't had a fight with an ogre, gargoyle, (giant bug under the mage castle) or anything else that breaks armor, weapon, or shield easilly.
And yes, normally minimizing your learning is better, normally, under true combat you need to pay attention to your left, And your right, or you get broadsided.
This stance is for the ?planned? hand/body seperation, not really for the shield/parry seperation.
Thanks, Doesn't answer the question though. And I don't expect you to use my method, which does quite well, as long as I'm not using ranged or haven't had a fight with an ogre, gargoyle, (giant bug under the mage castle) or anything else that breaks armor, weapon, or shield easilly.
And yes, normally minimizing your learning is better, normally, under true combat you need to pay attention to your left, And your right, or you get broadsided.
This stance is for the ?planned? hand/body seperation, not really for the shield/parry seperation.
> I thought the goblin zombies were supposed to be akin to louts.
The goblin zombies in Haven are more akin to louts. The goblin zombies in the Hunting Preserve are more akin to madmen in level, since they share a similar "origin".
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
The goblin zombies in Haven are more akin to louts. The goblin zombies in the Hunting Preserve are more akin to madmen in level, since they share a similar "origin".
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
>>The goblin zombies in Haven are more akin to louts. The goblin zombies in the Hunting Preserve are more akin to madmen in level, since they share a similar "origin".
Isn't that too confusing for new players?
Cute verbs and speaking from hiding are excellent ways to catch a lightning bolt in the face regardless of mystical ninja abilities.
-Armifer
Isn't that too confusing for new players?
Cute verbs and speaking from hiding are excellent ways to catch a lightning bolt in the face regardless of mystical ninja abilities.
-Armifer
>>>>Where's the scavanger's hide out more, I usually get them to move all my stuff, though after three or four I have to go get patched up.
>>>I've found that splitting your stance between 2 defenses, instead of 3, is more effective. Stance evasion 100/shield 80 for shield learning, then switch to stance evasion 100/parry 80 for parry learning.
>>Thanks, Doesn't answer the question though. And I don't expect you to use my method, which does quite well, as long as I'm not using ranged or haven't had a fight with an ogre, gargoyle, (giant bug under the mage castle) or anything else that breaks armor, weapon, or shield easilly.
I was responding to the fact that the scavengers teach you well, but beat you up too fast. Using a more effective defensive stance and just alternating parry/shield learning, instead of splitting your stance between evasion, parry, and shield, may allow you to hunt them without getting beat up as much.
>>>I've found that splitting your stance between 2 defenses, instead of 3, is more effective. Stance evasion 100/shield 80 for shield learning, then switch to stance evasion 100/parry 80 for parry learning.
>>Thanks, Doesn't answer the question though. And I don't expect you to use my method, which does quite well, as long as I'm not using ranged or haven't had a fight with an ogre, gargoyle, (giant bug under the mage castle) or anything else that breaks armor, weapon, or shield easilly.
I was responding to the fact that the scavengers teach you well, but beat you up too fast. Using a more effective defensive stance and just alternating parry/shield learning, instead of splitting your stance between evasion, parry, and shield, may allow you to hunt them without getting beat up as much.
> Isn't that too confusing for new players?
The typical new player isn't going to start in both Riverhaven and Crossing at the same time, so not very likely it'll confuse them. By the time a brand new Riverhavenite gets far enough along to be exploring out the west gate of Crossing, they are probably tough enough to at least survive the Crossing version long enough to realize they aren't in Kan...er...Riverhaven anymore.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
The typical new player isn't going to start in both Riverhaven and Crossing at the same time, so not very likely it'll confuse them. By the time a brand new Riverhavenite gets far enough along to be exploring out the west gate of Crossing, they are probably tough enough to at least survive the Crossing version long enough to realize they aren't in Kan...er...Riverhaven anymore.
- GM Dartenian
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford
But there's not actually anything dangerous on the way between the two cities. If they pay attention and go slowly, they might be lucky to see a wind hound but that's about it.
On the other hand, just about every hunting area and turnoff on that road is either not a hunting area or is populated by critters that have some sort of curious-newbie failsafe built in--slower gen, melee-only, weak as sin, etc.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
On the other hand, just about every hunting area and turnoff on that road is either not a hunting area or is populated by critters that have some sort of curious-newbie failsafe built in--slower gen, melee-only, weak as sin, etc.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
>But there's not actually anything dangerous on the way between the two cities. If they pay attention and go slowly, they might be lucky to see a wind hound but that's about it.
that depends if there using maps or not, you can stumble into plenty of dangerous areas between haven in the crossings
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
that depends if there using maps or not, you can stumble into plenty of dangerous areas between haven in the crossings
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
>>The typical new player isn't going to start in both Riverhaven and Crossing at the same time, so not very likely it'll confuse them.
I am not sure I agree. I know of folk who traveled from one to the other in search of both gear and friends who already played. While it is likely a new player will stay where they started, I still think it possible they might migrate while still a noob. Granted if they are hunting any sort of goblin, they should be able to survive long enough to make a getaway. They might be a bit battered, though. I am undecided whether the confusion is worth complaining about, but I decided to post my thoughts anyhow.
I am not sure I agree. I know of folk who traveled from one to the other in search of both gear and friends who already played. While it is likely a new player will stay where they started, I still think it possible they might migrate while still a noob. Granted if they are hunting any sort of goblin, they should be able to survive long enough to make a getaway. They might be a bit battered, though. I am undecided whether the confusion is worth complaining about, but I decided to post my thoughts anyhow.
Little late to the party, but:
Don't use parry. Parry will get you killed at low levels. You should stay with the goblins until shield and evasion hit to 40s. After capping goblins, you can move into eels, and I do mean capping. Try trollkins/badgers/pots, before eelse if you must. However parry will still get you killed throughout.
If you must have parry, wait until you cap evasion on a critter you hunt, then introduce parry. I think with my most recent monstrosity i capped evasion in eels, then went back to gobs for parry, then eels, then capped evasion in beiswurms and then learned parry.
In conclusion, parry sucks. Secondly, cap everything, or you'll be a few ranks short of the transitions.
Don't use parry. Parry will get you killed at low levels. You should stay with the goblins until shield and evasion hit to 40s. After capping goblins, you can move into eels, and I do mean capping. Try trollkins/badgers/pots, before eelse if you must. However parry will still get you killed throughout.
If you must have parry, wait until you cap evasion on a critter you hunt, then introduce parry. I think with my most recent monstrosity i capped evasion in eels, then went back to gobs for parry, then eels, then capped evasion in beiswurms and then learned parry.
In conclusion, parry sucks. Secondly, cap everything, or you'll be a few ranks short of the transitions.
