I have to say I'm not really liking the new caps on experience from creatures. So 20 min of hunting a new critter a step up the ladder. Testing Maulers since Wraiths don't teach me anymore in test.

You have some minor abrasions to the right arm, some minor abrasions to the left arm, minor swelling and bruising in the chest area compounded by cuts and bruises about the chest area, some minor abrasions to the abdomen.

Light Armor: 401 99% captivated (26/34)	Defending: 498 28% concentrating (9/34)
Parry Ability: 411 76% understanding (14/34)	Small Edged: 521 75% analyzing (18/34)
Melee Mastery: 449 32% concentrating (9/34)	Inner Magic: 430 58% learning (3/34)
Augmentation: 353 58% ruminating (8/34)	Debilitation: 220 09% pondering (7/34)
Evasion: 597 68% thoughtful (4/34)	Stealth: 651 35% dabbling (1/34)
Backstab: 551 37% dabbling (1/34)

You are certain that the zombie mauler is healthy.

You are certain that it is somewhat stronger than you are.

You are certain that it is not quite as agile as you are.

You are certain that it is somewhat less disciplined than you are.

You are certain that it is not quite as quick to react as you are.

You are certain that it is a little more conditioned than you are.

Critter Offense, My Defense - an acid-scored sabre with a subtly iridescent grey cire grip, you are certain that the zombie mauler is a slightly less skilled opponent.

Critter Defense, My Offense - an acid-scored sabre with a subtly iridescent grey cire grip, you are certain that the zombie mauler is a creature completely beneath your notice.

If you attacked with an acid-scored sabre with a subtly iridescent grey cire grip, you are certain that the enemy would train somewhat poorly.

If you threw the sabre at the enemy you are certain that it would train exceptionally well, but you probably won't be landing many blows.

If you defended by parrying attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train rather well.

If you defended by evading attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train acceptably.

If you defended by blocking attacks, you are certain that the enemy would train exceptionally well.

If you attempted to beguile the enemy with tactics, you are certain that it would train acceptably.

You carefully size up the zombie mauler, gauging its overall perception.

As you consider stealing from the zombie mauler, you believe it's somewhat of a long shot.

You also eye the zombie mauler over, trying to discern how much wealth it is carrying.

As you consider hiding around the zombie mauler, you believe it should not find you terribly often.

As you consider an attempt to stalk the zombie mauler, you believe it should not prove too difficult to stalk.

As you consider a stealthy assault on the zombie mauler, it'll be troublesome to get at its back.

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

>I'm not saying the sky is falling, but I am gonna say I don't see how changes like these are going to be viable for live-play anywhere near the levels currently being used in test

I would like to second this. Combat did not becomes challenging, or exciting. It became painfully long to learn anything...

-Zerreck Arkarm

>>well for another example I was recently told by Kod, that with my skill I should be able to handle 3 Cabalists with no buffs,

No, I said you could handle 3 Assassins and possibly Intercessors. Then I went and copied you and proved it to be true. Not cabalists. I never said cabalists and I never tested with them.

>>I'm not saying the sky is falling

So don't. This is the TESTING instance for a reason :P

I intend to review the penalties from having 4 enemies engaged on you, which appears to be one part of the problem.

Enemies also appear to cycle through attack styles, and I've seen some of them go from a -20% OF to a +30% OF. That is too large of a range, and likely explains some of the issues you are having on weapon using mobs like Assassins and Intercessors. This may also be why natural critters like celpeze and bloodwolves have long been favorites. If their attacks all get a 20% penalty, and are fast... well sure I'd hunt them too! But that is why we are testing!

>>accuse of under-hunting

There is no accusation here - it is fact. When I say a critter has 350 ranks, and you are still MLing on it at 600 ranks, that seems like a balance problem. Now we may need to spend some time getting combat tweaked so you can survive AND learn. But arguing the point when you cannot see the numbers isn't helping me any :(

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>> There is no accusation here - it is fact. When I say a critter has 350 ranks, and you are still MLing on it at 600 ranks, that seems like a balance problem. Now we may need to spend some time getting combat tweaked so you can survive AND learn. But arguing the point when you cannot see the numbers isn't helping me any

It seems like you understand the problem, which provides some reassurance. To recap, I think that dying in DR is very inconvenient compared to other online games. This is not a problem in itself. but it has consequences. Players are going to respond to this by trying to select the best creature they can take on without too much risk of dying. After leveling one Moon Mage to over 100th circle and a number of alts to lower circles(the highest being a few circles shy of 40th circle,. I can say that finding the sweet spot isn't exactly easy. I have spent the better part of the last several months trying to find the sweet spot on several characters and I can say with confidence that "at level creatures" are usually going to turn me into a greasy blood stain. Then I have to deal with losing time waiting for a rez (that probably isn't coming) or losing all my field experience (and scroll spells), needing to replace favors (at the cost of experience) and not being able to return to hunting until death's sting wears off. Consequently it sort of makes me frustrated when I suspect that the GM's would say I am under hunting since I would be very happy to hunt at level if it was possible to do so without extraordinary risk of death.




Just to give some numbers:

My moon mage seems to do ok in Forest Geni's/Black Leucro, although I have to admit that I chose that area more because my locksmithing is in the right range for geni boxes. They are not as hard as I would like, however the nuances of grandfathering put me in a nice gap where I can't learn weapons on anything that teaches TM and debilitation and cannot learn TM and Debilitation on things that teach me weapons. This means that they are decent challenge unless I bring out partial displacement or burn.

Circle: 101
Shield Usage: 233 Light Armor: 256 Defending: 243 Parry Ability: 243 Evasion: 264
Small Edged: 219 Large Edged: 218 Small Blunt: 217 Targeted Magic: 261 Debilitation: 281


My cleric currently hunts mutant togballs and they can hurt him if he gets swarmed. I think he can probably step up slightly as long as I am vigilant about his buffs falling off, but last time I tried a few ranks ago he was rewarded with a trip to get some more favors from his deity:

Circle: 36

SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate Fraction
Shield Usage: 122 Chain Armor: 130 Defending: 124 Parry Ability: 130 Evasion: 120
Small Edged: 121 Large Edged: 119 Small Blunt: 41 Targeted Magic: 117 Debilitation: 108

>>I don't think GMs are wrong saying this, but it's also worth pointing out that players normally hunt based on what their lowest regular combats, not highest.

I think this is only true for defenses, you can train weapons that are severely low for the critter you are attacking because of the way easy exp is. Like severely low, IE 350 ranks in drakes or cabals.


Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

> Like severely low, IE 350 ranks in drakes or cabals.

I'm actually backtraining a weapon at 350 ranks, and I just tested what I can hit with it a few days ago. It trains just fine in adult dillos, poorly in elders, and I can't hit drakes. You probably have more melee mastery than me, though.

>>I think this is only true for defenses, you can train weapons that are severely low for the critter you are attacking because of the way easy exp is. Like severely low, IE 350 ranks in drakes or cabals.

IMO, if I'm not able to kill a mob, that counts as me not being ready to hunt there. I agree that the bigger deal is handling them defense-wise, but if I can't kill them offense-wise it's not something I consider viable.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

So strep throat stinks, and I wish I had an empath in the real world to take it from me (thank you penicillin!). That said, I've finally felt well enough to log into test as Belea and do a little testing.

I get the point of not having critters teach from 1 to 1000 ranks, but a happier balance needs to be found in my opinion. Currently I'm hunting head-splitters in prime with about 620 weapons, and 730 shield. I also get pretty thwacked now and then. Though the shield has slowed down in recent ranks, they still teach quite nicely overall. I tried them in test and this was not the case. IIRC, my SE moved to 6/34, and shield didn't move at all. No worries, let's try something else that's harder...

So I go to DP Assassins - can't touch them at all, and two minutes into it I'm a dead pin cushion. Yay for healme! :)

So then I go to malchata. Weapons move nice, but shield barely moves (though it did a little!). As an aside, their sand attack damaged the heck out of my plate, and pretty much made them a non-option option.

I tried Adan'f Spirit Dancers, but they really were too low for me (as I figured they would be).

Resuscitants were a good option, they at least got my shield to 12/34, and moved weapons. Just wish I could use hunt there :( (or I wish their hiding would teach more perception).

Onward to sky giants - they taught weapons nicely, but next to nothing, if anything with regards to shield.

And that's where I stopped for now. I appreciate the fact that there should be some balance, but from my perspective, I'm right where I should be as far as my guild advancement should be. Unfortunately, that also appears to be a deadzone for learning consistently. Yes, I could backtrain 110 painful ranks of weapons to catch SE up with my shield, but I can see that getting very old very fast. I haven't checked dillos or anything on the islands, because personally, I'd rather live another three months with this strep throat than to live on the islands (no offense to the people out there, just not my thing).

One of the nice things about combat being where it is at right now is that I can hunt for a short bit, and then go do something else, like craft, etc. Which IIRC, was one of the goals of 3.0.

I'm not afraid of change (unless that's the islands!), but I guess I just need something else to work with. Maybe some critters that are a tier above headsplitters, etc? As it stands, I'm an armor primary that can't actively learn armor. No, the sky isn't falling. No, I'm not going to threaten to cancel my account and boycott the game (unless you send me to the islands...can you tell I don't like them?). I do appreciate the work being done on the GM side, and please let me know if there are any other specific details that are needed.

Also, as an aside, I mentioned my unpleasant experience with assassins - and I've noticed that in the case of all ranged creatures, it feels like there is a little OP going on there. For example, I was running to Shard from Raven's Point in test, and in the split second I was in the room had my leg ignited by a sentinel with naptha. Maybe it's due to it being a special attack, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of check for that attack.

Thanks for listening!

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You say, "Tada."

WHAM
A sudden burst of oily smelling air strikes you in the face.

Are there any plans to look at special attacks? Dragon priests have some annoying ones.

> So I go to DP Assassins - can't touch them at all, and two minutes into it I'm a dead pin cushion. Yay for healme! :)

> So then I go to malchata. Weapons move nice, but shield barely moves (though it did a little!). As an aside, their sand attack damaged the heck out of my plate, and pretty much made them a non-option option.

With the way your describing sky giants moving your shield, your going to have a heck of a time with assassins if they are still teaching you pretty good. Also assassins are harder in test for whatever reason, they aren't to bad in prime and I can survive in there long term, but killed me pretty quickly in test for some reason. Could have been broken armor and what not though i'm not sure.

I would try something more along the lines of Black apes or maybe Zombie head-hunters around boar clan. Then maybe check out juvie armadillos. Both black apes and juvies teach pretty damn good, black apes being a slight stepping stone hunting ground for juvies.

>>I find myself in a nearly identical situation as Belea.

Check out Super Celps on Kresh - That is what I used between Head splitters and Assassins. Obviously it is an island :( I did a couple months there to make the transition. It's definitely a gap in the critter ladder though.

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

> Thanks Codiax, I'll give them a try. I did end up giving adults a try earlier tonight on M'riss and they seem to work fairly well, but would much rather stay on Mer'kresh given the option.

If adults are a good level for you, supers will be too low.

I haven't tested this for myself but an interesting anecdote... Some people have told me they feel like they're learning based their augmented ranks, rather than their base ranks. Don't know whether it's fact or fiction, but I'm curious to know whether others who have tested training with and without buffs share the same experience.

If that's the case, then it certainly would explain at least part of the issue with learning, especially now that buffs aren't capped at 100 ranks.

>>I don't have enough info to say for sure, but my inital reaction to the experience you described is "that doesn't sound right, you should have been okay".

Belea's a Paladin, IIRC, so the other defenses are probably lower and she's not likely to have boss stats compared to assassins.

Mazrian

i hunt black gobs with similar ranks and they seem to teach fine (for my taste) give those a shot if you're still struggling.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR

< As a point of comparison, I do just fine there with high 700s + buff in evasion and mid 600s with no buff in shield and parry.

Was that in prime or in test? I can hunt assassins in prime without buffs, yet with high 800's evasion 700 shield and PHP up which is evasion / reflex buff, I was getting nailed in test fairly often. Granted that was right around the time test opened up, and things might have changed. Maybe i'll wander around a bit today and check it out again.

Do appraise careful, it should show you what it "thinks" should be your learning rate for the critter.