So I was running numbers today, and I realized that we have a problem with a bunch of our critters in the game.

In 2.0, things were a bit different a bit more... let's say organic. The nature of the system in 2.0, however caused the best creatures to have much higher defenses than offenses. You got more experience for a higher-offense critter, and if you loaded yourself up with enemies their low offense was counterbalanced by the sheer number of experience ticks you would get.

This, in turn, led to great rejoicing when creatures had lower offense and high defense. There was basically no challenge, and you could whack at them all day long and get experience. Celps are the perfect example for this. Their defense is 20% higher than their offense, which is why everybody loves them so much. They're easy, nay, free experience for most players because it's easy to defend against them but they give wonderful weapon experience.

On the flip side of the coin, you have creatures whose attacks vastly imbalance their defenses. Even without magic or special abilities, these creatures have vastly more skill in attacking than defending. Creatures like this include alley thugs, skeletal sailors, and damaska boars - All of these have TWICE as much attack as they do defense. This means that IF you can stand toe to toe with them, they're very easy pickins. These are creatures you hunt if all you want is loot and you've got some backtraining to do.

So, that's the problem. There are creatures who are basically configured to either be pinatas or big dumb walls you can swing your sword at and learn a TON. It's the former I'm more worried about, honestly - By and large, pinata creatures are dropping worse loot than their counterparts, and aren't contributing egregiously to the economy in a terrible way. The big dumb walls, though, are a problem. Their existence actually damages the ability for experience gain to be balanced - Why fight something challenging if you could instead fight something NOT challenging for the same rewards?

So, to handle this, there are a couple possible solutions:

1) Fix these creatures so they're more balanced. This is the solution I prefer to go with, because it leads to a simpler system where things are more predictable.

2) Find a way to counterbalance the fact that divergent BDWs like Celpeze are giving experience in a way they shouldn't. One option is to apply an experience reduction based on how divergent the stats are, but no matter what road I go down with this problem, the result just feels kludgy or overcomplicated. It doesn't solve the problem at the base, which is that the creatures are unbalanced.

What are your thoughts? Something needs to be done to rebalance the system, because what we have breaks any risk vs reward model out there.

We're discussing this on our end as well, but I wanted to give you some insight as to why some creatures (particularly celps) aren't training that well.


--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

I vote #1 for sure Soch, sounds easier for you to implement, and in the end easier and more consistant for us players as well. Also A little late on this one dang! Wish it would of been changed 8 years ago.

Thanks for the info in your posts btw.

Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons

>>DR-Socharis: 1) Fix these creatures so they're more balanced. This is the solution I prefer to go with, because it leads to a simpler system where things are more predictable.

This seems like the better approach. What are the downsides to doing it this way?

---

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

I literally just breathed a sigh of relief when I read that post, Socharis. As a character with very evenly spread offensive and defensive skills, I think the critter imbalances are one of the primary factors contributing to why I've been having such a rough time finding a hunting ground where I can not die but still gain experience in 3.1.

I'd definitely vote for #1. Sounds like an easy fix and should clear up a lot of headache.

Just felt like I had to say:

I've never hunted a single one of any of the critters mentioned.

Are those just examples and there are other critters in the game that fit the archetype that you want to fix or is that the extent of it?

From what others were reporting, it was taking 9-12 SLICE type attacks to kill an at-circle critter. It was taking 3-4 maneuvers to kill them. This makes sense considering maneuvers:

1). Have a long cooldown

2). Require 4 seconds of un-interrupted preparation time

3). Then apply a RT


But sure, they may require some tweaks. I want them to actually be useful! Which ones were you using?

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>2). Require 4 seconds of un-interrupted preparation time

I was able to time it so I could do two maneuvers in a row, maneuver cleave then maneuver doublestrike or just doing maneuver cleave, then draw or feint a couple times then had it fire off... is it supposed to do that? or is it more like Flee where your character is supposed to freeze/charge-up while the attack prepares?

>>Which ones were you using?

cleave seems okay, impale seems to be the most useful(probably in a pvp situation too, espcailly against HP users). Suplex is fun, but you can only do it once a minute, maybe once a minute per creature? Honestly I see myself using fun things like suplex more often than the others(even if they seem more useful)

Probably bad data/input since I use a tyrium greatsword and it's overdamaging - but seems like it'd be faster if I did feint or draw a few times instead of cleave- for a 1 handed weapon I could see the benefits. I'll have to play more.

Being bow weapon primary - Powershot I probably wouldn't use. the whole chance of randomly missing thing (which I still feel is pretty bad for a full aimed bow when underhunting) seemed to happen a lot or I'd do less damage than a snap or un-aimed shot. Right now I aim for about 1-1.5 seconds before shooting instead of 5 seconds or 9 for full aim - The DPS(if you can really call it that with bows) is higher and seems to teach better/faster.

Maybe if it did something else? Knee-capper that aimed for legs and made opponent kneel(assuming you don't blow their leg off) - or like if it did an extra heavy stun or crazy blowback(like how foraged rocks blow people into other rooms when you throw them for grazing damage)

Even with full aim with a bow(and if I take my shield off, which is basically suicide), I have better accuracy with a weapon with 200 less ranks that's completely unbalanced compared to my bow.

*Anyone try an PVP over in test with these maneuvers? Did it change much or throw the balance drastically?

*Any future defensive maneuvers? I'd like to see something where we set it up, and do a counter/defensive attack, throw, etc - I can see empaths doing Akido sidesteps and throws and such, even drunken-style bards. Hell maybe something to prepare to catch a strike or ranged throw?
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

>>I am always surprised when people say FEINT works so well. It has a slight OF penalty, and less than half the DPS of SLICE. The way armor works, lower damaging attacks tend to work less effectively anyways... so FEINT generally should be better for gaining balance or when you are low on fatigue

feint's 2 seconds, draw's 3, slice is 4 - with MEGAsword(tm) feint takes 1-2 hits longer than draw, but in the end they're the same amount of time(draw is more accurate) and I'm a lot more fatigued with draw, slice usually takes an extra 4-5.
Usually I do draw first to open them up with lots of damage, and follow with devastating damage feints. Because of accuracy Feint also does less damage so it keeps things alive a defensive hit or two longer sometimes, so I get a tiny extra parry.

Sometimes I'll do chop after a shove or knockdown, but usually it's basically the same damage as if I just feinted at it at that point.

Pretty much when I do an analyze combo if it's not a 2 hit combo, or it's like jab, thrust, feint, thrust, or something with less than 2 chop/slice/draws I just do face next and try another.


>>A CLEAVE would do 3x the damage of a DRAW. Maneuvers in general are GREAT for getting past armor, barriers and buffs/debuffs to OF. But only every so often.

is that damage cap breaking? MegaSword plus MOA, plus ignite, plus blessing when applicable is already super crazy


>>The large OF penalty from not aiming is likely why you find yourself missing so much and doing so much less damage.

I find myself missing as much with zero aim as I do with full aim, and in the case of the greatsword I'm still doing a large amount of damage(noticably less with zero aim - but 1 second compared to 9 second aim, the same accuracy and damage are basically the same)
-I'm milking underhunting while my shield catches up though

>>Oh, and I do intend to cut the chance for critical misses with a bow by half.

Imma point fingers at that for my bow issues - with LT or 2he i whiff 3-4 in a row sometimes, I see a little more often with my bow (underhunting) than with my LT axe (overhunting) - I'm more likely to miss 3 times in a row than just once or twice too

4-7 hits sometimes up to 10(cause of misses) to kill on average with all 3(greatswords on the low end, bow in the middle, and LT axe for most hits to kill)

>>It'd take me several months of overhauling the combat system to implement such a thing... so not likely to happen really soon.

that's cool, just some thoughts I figured I'd share, and see if I could fish for any future neatness that might come our way

>>Right now we have plans forchanneled and situation maneuvers, and some toggle maneuvers that periodically Proc an effect when you strike for a period of time.

kinda like that...


thanks!

_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.

Socharis, regarding your intriguing problem...

I'm a bit CDO (some might say OCD, but that's not in alphabetical order) and it annoys me that the creatures are not balanced offensively/defensively. There are critters who will train defenses 10, 20, 50+ ranks higher than weapons. I am all in favor of making critters balanced. It just makes sense. If a critter has higher defenses, shouldn't you need MORE offensive skill to kill them? Balanced is a good thing, and seems the easier route.

________________________________________________________________


"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh

>I would like to make it cancel the maneuver if you attack in-between. This is how we justify their great power. Just need to pick at the combat system some more.

I feel this is a step in the wrong direction, as presently we have the choice of softening a target up a bit before applying a high damage attack. Given HP buffers, this may be a useful opening combo, or a potent finisher. If the issue is that you want MANEUVERs damage to be in line with the time (RT or 'charge up') takes to execute them, I feel like you're better off just changing it to straight RT.

Unless tactics maneuvers are still ok? Thematically, my impression of what is happening is you are orienting your body for a heavy attack, squaring your shoulders or planting your feet or whatever. Maybe instead of canceling the MANEUVER, place an OF penalty of some magnitude on the user for the span of time it spends charging? The choice to continue using position or balance favoring attacks while prepping a MANEUVER seems like part of the process, and I felt the pause (incidentally, does it scale according to weapon size?) was designed to allow lighter weapons a bit of an advantage, with an extra strike or two before the grand finale.

>it was taking 9-12 SLICE type attacks to kill an at-circle critter. It was taking 3-4 maneuvers to kill them.

I feel like this number is high for the testing I did with my barbarian on middle gryphons (~350 HE/HB, ~50 Str, ~40 Agl). 350 might be a little high for middle gryphons though. I'd place it closer to 4-6 attacks and 2-3 maneuvers. Ish.

>Which ones were you using?

All of them. I don't train QS, so not TWIRL. SUPLEX was broken in gryphons last I gave it a go. DOUBLESTRIKE is by far my favorite.

>>Imma point fingers at that for my bow issues - with LT or 2he i whiff 3-4 in a row sometimes, I see a little more often with my bow (underhunting) than with my LT axe (overhunting) - I'm more likely to miss 3 times in a row than just once or twice too

If you are truly underhunting, the chance for a critical miss is only a few %. It should be exceedingly rare to miss back-to-back-to-back, with any weapon.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

And yeah, I am really torn regarding how penalizing we should be during the "charge up".

This was my first attempt at copying some of the advancements modern MMOs have made to their combat systems. In games like EQ, CoH, WoW, these kinds of abilities have what is called an "activation time" where nothing offensive can be done (except moving and using emotes). By the mid-to-upper levels you'll have a smattering of abilities to fill all the gaps.

The trouble with DR is we have no UI. No buttons to click or organize, no easy way to display and allow players to hotkey these abilities. So I am trying to avoid taking it to such an extreme that combat is a confusing mess :P

On that note, I will be adding MANEUVER CHARGE, a verb that auto-selects the appropriate charged maneuver for the primary weapon you are using :)

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>Broken how? I don't believe gryphons can be knocked over because they fly... but that would be a feature of that critter, not a reflection of the ability being broken?

I posted the log in the Barb thread, it seemed to be a combination of parser error and the gryphon not being SUPLEXable. Perhaps critters that can't be knocked down should return a failure of the maneuver? "You reach for the gryphon but it flaps out of reach!" or something? I admittedly didn't go anywhere else to try testing it, and see others enjoying SUPLEX so assume it's working fine elsewhere.

>This was my first attempt at copying some of the advancements modern MMOs have made to their combat systems. In games like EQ, CoH, WoW, these kinds of abilities have what is called an "activation time" where nothing offensive can be done (except moving and using emotes). By the mid-to-upper levels you'll have a smattering of abilities to fill all the gaps.

I really want to acknowledge your efforts too, I think you've diversified the bejeezus out of the game in an extremely laudably balanced manner.

In those MMOs, abilities that have a charge up time that only allows movement should be, naturally, used on the move, prioritizing over abilities that must be prepped while stationary. I'm not sure how to really translate that to DR, aside from maybe only allowing certain actions during this time, such as prepping/targeting a spell or tactics maneuvers. Of course, we don't have to duplicate everything as is, I'm just offering this as a suggestion.

>On that note, I will be adding MANEUVER CHARGE, a verb that auto-selects the appropriate charged maneuver for the primary weapon you are using :)

Heh, excellent. This will certainly simplify things. As long as you're tweaking stuff for simplicity, any chance of getting specific Barbarian ANALYZE combos refreshable, so we can see what's coming up next in the combo, or more easily resettable?

I find the DFA shield ignoring aspect of cleave enormously helpful. My experience in cabalists differs from that of the OP, and that may be because I lack his base weapon skill. I notice a substantial difference between cleave and regular attacks (though strangely, it takes me about the same number of hits to kill without cleave as he reported, 9-13).

Maybe the OP was already capping damage. Did you appraise the critter after cleave or see how many cleaves alone it took to kill a cabalist? It took me 3-4 cleaves, usually 3. The hit messaging might be deceptively light considering the vitality damage that is actually going through.

>That would make slice attacks with piercing weapons have horrible FoI, as logic would suggest.

"The good knife fighter thinks on point and blade and shearing-guard simultaneously. The point can also cut; the blade can also stab; the shearing guard can also trap your opponent's blade."

Sorry, had to. I actually quite agree with your point, that FoI should contribute only to moves that utilize the weapons highest damage type. It might be problematic with some weapons that have equal slice/pierce and impact, but I'll let a weapons expert chime in on that.