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Hello Necromancers,
While I was making the updates for appraising the Guardian Spirit, I found a bug affecting the zombie and construct. Right now, anyone can learn appraisal on these indefinitely, which is not supposed to be the case (these are both flagged +NOEXP, but the appraisal system was not updated to respect the flag.)
Rather than simply turn off EXP from appraising these, I updated them to work like the Empath guardian spirit now does. The summoner can learn from appraising them on a timer, but no one else gets any experience from appraising them.
This is live in test only, but it'll hit the main instances with the rest of the 3.1 when we roll the whole shebang.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
What is the logic behind providing appraisal XP for them? I remember a conversation a little while ago for Empaths, wherein everyone seemed to agree removing the XP and removing (or drastically lowering) the timer was a good idea?
I for one would prefer they teach no experience if it meant I could readily appraise them, but it's a pretty minor point either way.
I for one would prefer they teach no experience if it meant I could readily appraise them, but it's a pretty minor point either way.
>>While you are poking around with this, is there any chance you could make it so others cannot appraise our zombies? I don't care about gaining exp from appraising my own zombie btw.
Having a necro I understand why you'd ask this, but it doesn't make a lotta sense to me. If I take take a few seconds and gauge the might of a cabalist or bone wyvern, why couldn't I gauge the zombie?
Samsaren
Having a necro I understand why you'd ask this, but it doesn't make a lotta sense to me. If I take take a few seconds and gauge the might of a cabalist or bone wyvern, why couldn't I gauge the zombie?
Samsaren
>>I for one would prefer they teach no experience if it meant I could readily appraise them, but it's a pretty minor point either way.
...But this is what Melete just did, only with the caster being able to learn appraise on a timer.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
...But this is what Melete just did, only with the caster being able to learn appraise on a timer.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>Having a necro I understand why you'd ask this, but it doesn't make a lotta sense to me. If I take take a few seconds and gauge the might of a cabalist or bone wyvern, why couldn't I gauge the zombie?
My preference is that zombies can't be appraised either, but I don't think it's very feasible or reasonable. My reasoning is that it's the only example of being able to assess the combat strength of PC without actively engaging them in combat, which is 'unfair', but ultimately kind of meh. I think it's kind of funny when Therengians sit around an HLC necros zombie, but won't attack it because it's appraising as mythical, in the same way I think it's funny that people RP out conflicts instead of just fighting when they don't know whose tougher.
My preference is that zombies can't be appraised either, but I don't think it's very feasible or reasonable. My reasoning is that it's the only example of being able to assess the combat strength of PC without actively engaging them in combat, which is 'unfair', but ultimately kind of meh. I think it's kind of funny when Therengians sit around an HLC necros zombie, but won't attack it because it's appraising as mythical, in the same way I think it's funny that people RP out conflicts instead of just fighting when they don't know whose tougher.
As stated, zombies are about the only way to judge a PCs strength. No other class has this handicap when it comes to player interactions, either the two know each other and what each is roughly capable of, or any conflict resolution will be a potential surprise for one of the two(at least the first time). While I don't think a zombie should be sitting in town, I also don't think that people should be able to look at it and say, too strong, or some new necro made this so I can destroy it without worry of retribution.
>>As stated, zombies are about the only way to judge a PCs strength.
Critter difficulty != PC stats/skills
Critter difficulty == PC's TM + amount of mana used + critter used + any buffs given to the critter (aka: RPU) + RNG + equipment critter has, not to mention that it's in relation to who ever is appraising it, which makes things even harder to pin down.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Critter difficulty != PC stats/skills
Critter difficulty == PC's TM + amount of mana used + critter used + any buffs given to the critter (aka: RPU) + RNG + equipment critter has, not to mention that it's in relation to who ever is appraising it, which makes things even harder to pin down.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Also I feel that if you don't want someone knowing your "power," even if it is an inference based on the stats Teveshszat listed, then don't be identified as owning that zombie. A consistent theme in the necromancer guild has been that it's on the shoulders of the player to keep his characters secrets.
The system effectively treats the zombie as a mob in the game. It's not listed as Bob's Zombie. So at that point, it's a choice to be known as its creator, no? As such, I think being able to appraise the zombie is justified. This is a case where the mechanical effects of the PvP and PvE line blur.
Nikpack
The system effectively treats the zombie as a mob in the game. It's not listed as Bob's Zombie. So at that point, it's a choice to be known as its creator, no? As such, I think being able to appraise the zombie is justified. This is a case where the mechanical effects of the PvP and PvE line blur.
Nikpack
>Critter difficulty != PC stats/skills
Well, sure, but you can probably remain confident that a necromancer whose TM is lower than your combats is also going to be easy pickings. Chances are offensively, TM is going to be a necromancers highest skill. No other PC combat skill can be evaluated without engaging in combat this way.
I agree it's sort of moot, it's mostly just a nitpicky thing.
>Also I feel that if you don't want someone knowing your "power," even if it is an inference based on the stats Teveshszat listed, then don't be identified as owning that zombie. A consistent theme in the necromancer guild has been that it's on the shoulders of the player to keep his characters secrets.
Sure, but unless you're in a room with multiple zombies, it's typically not to hard to figure out it belongs to the necromancer in the room. It would be absolutely hilarious to accuse someone of Necromancy, get an angry group of Therengians to start demanding they prove their innocence, COMMAND ZOM COME, COMMAND ZOMBIE ATTACK Therengian, and start screaming about how the person is clearly a necromancer.
I've never even heard of something like that happening though.
Well, sure, but you can probably remain confident that a necromancer whose TM is lower than your combats is also going to be easy pickings. Chances are offensively, TM is going to be a necromancers highest skill. No other PC combat skill can be evaluated without engaging in combat this way.
I agree it's sort of moot, it's mostly just a nitpicky thing.
>Also I feel that if you don't want someone knowing your "power," even if it is an inference based on the stats Teveshszat listed, then don't be identified as owning that zombie. A consistent theme in the necromancer guild has been that it's on the shoulders of the player to keep his characters secrets.
Sure, but unless you're in a room with multiple zombies, it's typically not to hard to figure out it belongs to the necromancer in the room. It would be absolutely hilarious to accuse someone of Necromancy, get an angry group of Therengians to start demanding they prove their innocence, COMMAND ZOM COME, COMMAND ZOMBIE ATTACK Therengian, and start screaming about how the person is clearly a necromancer.
I've never even heard of something like that happening though.
>>While you are poking around with this, is there any chance you could make it so others cannot appraise our zombies?
I understand why ya'll might want to remove the appraisal of zombies, but it seems kind of a crappy move. People are already super reluctant to PvP, and this would mean a zombie could be level 10 or level 210 and no one would know. I think it would have a chilling effect on necromancer PvP, and it would be bad for the RP setting to have people just ignoring zombies in town because they have no idea how hard it is or who left it there.
I know it may feel like Necromancers are being singled out here but 1) I didn't add anything, it's always been this way, I just turned off the EXP gain. 2) I'm pretty sure as we flesh out the pet system, all PvP-capable summons will be subject to this as well. Empaths are also now in the boat with you guys, and more guilds will surely be added as time passes.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
I understand why ya'll might want to remove the appraisal of zombies, but it seems kind of a crappy move. People are already super reluctant to PvP, and this would mean a zombie could be level 10 or level 210 and no one would know. I think it would have a chilling effect on necromancer PvP, and it would be bad for the RP setting to have people just ignoring zombies in town because they have no idea how hard it is or who left it there.
I know it may feel like Necromancers are being singled out here but 1) I didn't add anything, it's always been this way, I just turned off the EXP gain. 2) I'm pretty sure as we flesh out the pet system, all PvP-capable summons will be subject to this as well. Empaths are also now in the boat with you guys, and more guilds will surely be added as time passes.
Melete
Events Lead
Advocates Lead
Empath Advocate
Lore Developer
Thanks for the thought though Melete, although I would say that it isn't really RP we have going on as it is, due to people doing that anyways. It isn't rp imo to look at the zombie, know you can demolish it, and use that knowledge to safely attack zombie/necromancer if it comes to that. As it is, people appraise it, if too high they ignore it, if its easy they blow it away without second thought. Would find it more entertaining if they had to engage it first to appraise its power, and worse case scenario is people ignore it like they do now.
Just for discussion purposes, I think NOT knowing the strength of a zombie would enhance RP and the PvP experience around Necro's. People holding vehemently anti-Necro RP positions and continuing to practice magic or braid grass around a zombie because it appraises as too difficult is sort of not how it should be. Not knowing if a zombie is level 5 or over 9000 is no different than not knowing if that trash talking player is circle 5 or 150.
I suppose you can always THUMP someone if you're uncertain if you out circle them.
>I think this would lead to people ignoring all zombies rather than them engaging more often.
Yep. The assumption is, generally, unless I'm already 120-150th, everyone is higher than me. Especially anyone who's going to be parking a zombie somewhere to cause fights.
Plus allowing people to appraise a zombie is just realistic. I can eyeball someone and generally get an estimate of how badly they're going to kill me.
Yep. The assumption is, generally, unless I'm already 120-150th, everyone is higher than me. Especially anyone who's going to be parking a zombie somewhere to cause fights.
Plus allowing people to appraise a zombie is just realistic. I can eyeball someone and generally get an estimate of how badly they're going to kill me.
>I think this would lead to people ignoring all zombies rather than them engaging more often.
I don't disagree, but I think that's kind of lame. People pick fights with one another without knowing precisely the skill level of one another. But,
>Plus allowing people to appraise a zombie is just realistic. I can eyeball someone and generally get an estimate of how badly they're going to kill me.
I agree that appraising a zombie is realistic, but for some reason, appraising PC's isn't. PC appraisal would also solve this.
<<As stated, zombies are about the only way to judge a PCs strength.>>
There are a few other ways. Thief "mark" for instance.
But in pvp, if one is attacked by a zombie, I believe the attackee is messaged as to whose zombie it is, <not sure>, I know they're messaged if you use VIVI on them, not sure if you command a zombie if they can see it <if you're invisible> so I don't think scenario Jaliascleric described would be possible, although it would be amusing.
As for the appraisal, I try to appraise my own zombies periodically to see how they compare to whatever creature I'm fighting, although I don't make them very often, its sort of a gauge to indicate whether i'm going to be beat down by the particular critter.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
There are a few other ways. Thief "mark" for instance.
But in pvp, if one is attacked by a zombie, I believe the attackee is messaged as to whose zombie it is, <not sure>, I know they're messaged if you use VIVI on them, not sure if you command a zombie if they can see it <if you're invisible> so I don't think scenario Jaliascleric described would be possible, although it would be amusing.
As for the appraisal, I try to appraise my own zombies periodically to see how they compare to whatever creature I'm fighting, although I don't make them very often, its sort of a gauge to indicate whether i'm going to be beat down by the particular critter.
<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>
>There are a few other ways. Thief "mark" for instance.
I thought mark only checked your likelihood of stealing from them, i.e., their perception? I suppose you could also HIDE in front of them to get a rough gauge of their perception without engaging.
I think APP {player] would solve this all around, but don't really expect it to be a thing. I guess being able to alter how zombies appraise or something like that would be neat?
I thought mark only checked your likelihood of stealing from them, i.e., their perception? I suppose you could also HIDE in front of them to get a rough gauge of their perception without engaging.
I think APP {player] would solve this all around, but don't really expect it to be a thing. I guess being able to alter how zombies appraise or something like that would be neat?
mark all xxx
You carefully size up xxx, gauging her overall perception.
As you consider stealing from xxx, you believe she looks like she's got better eyes than you have fingers.
You also eye xxx over, trying to discern how much wealth she is carrying.
xxx has absolutely no money.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider hiding around xxx, you believe she's got good eyes, you'll be spotted pretty easily.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider an attempt to stalk xxx, you believe she's got pretty good eyes, maybe you shouldn't try it.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider a stealthy assault on xxx, you believe... Perhaps you should just give up and become a paladin?
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
You carefully size up xxx, gauging her overall perception.
As you consider stealing from xxx, you believe she looks like she's got better eyes than you have fingers.
You also eye xxx over, trying to discern how much wealth she is carrying.
xxx has absolutely no money.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider hiding around xxx, you believe she's got good eyes, you'll be spotted pretty easily.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider an attempt to stalk xxx, you believe she's got pretty good eyes, maybe you shouldn't try it.
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
As you consider a stealthy assault on xxx, you believe... Perhaps you should just give up and become a paladin?
You have no idea what you're doing and feel like you just made wild guesses.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
true. rangers have something similar, scout awareness, that gives them similar information. As the 3rd survival prime guild necros should have something to gauge others with. perhaps in 3.2? or 3.14159...I like pie....
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
