Figured i'd move the conversation here since its getting out of the barbarian realm.

<No. Otherwise mana really means nothing in the contest once you have some skill. Why make spells cost mana at all? Granted, mana isn't the old factor in the duration. But a min mana spell should always have less duration than a capped spell.

I can understand that to a point. But likewise, I think it you severely outclass somebody and have way more mental stats then them you shouldn't have to blow 100 mana for the desired effect. Now i'm not sure exactly how it works, but the testing I did had shown that a 50 mana cast was 17-18 second immobilize and a 100 mana cast was 20-21. I could go back and try a 60 mana cast which might actually bring the time up to 20 seconds, the same as the 100 mana cast.

100 mana in a tight situation where you don't have the time and luxury to just charge camb and focus on it will quickly drain your attunement pool. Maybe a few folks can get together sometime and do some more testing on the issue so we're not just shootin in the dark. Or maybe a little more information from a red name would help out if somebody has the time and wants to explain a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that more mana should always yield better results. I'm pretty much just trying to get it down so i'm not wasting a bunch of mana in a pvp situation especially, when i'm not going to see much different results had I cast 40 mana lower.

Maybe it could be some combination? Mana + success of the Stat vs Stat contest = Duration.

i.e. Min prep has a base of 5 seconds, the spell cap has a base of 15 seconds, and either is modified by the stat contest success +- 10 seconds up to the cap of 20 seconds.

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

<<While SvS is on a larger scale, isn't TM kinda the same? I've never been in a situation where I felt like adding more TM really let me hit the mob better (not saying it doesn't help, but I don't feel like I've noticed). Heck, sometimes I'm not even sure if I'm hitting harder.>>

There is now a noticeable difference for me in 3.0 damage between a capped and non-capped TM spell. I haven't noticed a to hit difference, but I haven't tested that either.

<<Just to pick out this comment, that's not how debilitation training works. It's based off debilitation skill vs. critter skill, like TM training, so you can train it at min mana just fine.>>

Are you sure? I learn debilitation very well in dillos snap casting sleep at 5 mana. I do not learn it at all with MB snapping at 30 (min preps for both). I assumed that the exp learning was tied to how "challenging" the contest was, thus I was learning nothing on 30 mana MBs (because I crush the dillo with that) and well with 5 mana sleep (because that's a much closer contest).

>>I've never been in a situation where I felt like adding more TM really let me hit the mob better

Mana generally does not make spells more accurate. They do MASSIVELY increase the base damage of TM spells, and with new combat it should be more efficient for you to pump extra mana into spells, rather than to prep, target and harness a second spell altogether.

---

"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<<Seems that way to me. Using a basic spell at min mana, I'm locking in adults. I'm not sure what the contest is, but I should be significantly outclassing them whatever it is.>>

With debilitation near yours, I can't lock in elders with anything but spam sleep, face next, spam sleep, etc. So clearly the answer is "bard HAX." Or your stats are much, much, much lower for the debilitation contest in question. I doubt that's the case.

My debil is 150 ranks under my TM and 135 ranks under my evasion, and I have issues learning debilitation against the same creatures unless I use sleep at the min prep (5). I will test through the rest of my spells, and sleep at a higher mana, a little later and see what it looks like.

I tested sleep at 5, and 30, and MB at 30, and it looks like I'm learning from all of them now. It's hard to tell whether I'm learning more from the higher casts, it would take a much larger sample (if there's a difference, it's not striking/easy for me to see). I'm inclined to think you're right about how the learning squares up now. When I tested two weeks ago, I learned absolutely no debil from MB at any mana.