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Important note: I already discussed most of this with Socharis on the test server and he is already investigating a solution to the problem, but here is some number crunching on the Mech Lore Conversion bugginess in case it might help.
If I attempt to break up my mech lore ranks using various configurations of Forging, Engineering, Outfitting and Mech Lore, and then compare how much exp is "lost" assuming the approximation that "Bits Per Rank" follows the same formula as "TDPs Per Rank":
100% in one skill = 0% lost (duh)
50/50 split = 2.4% lost (note: this shows that the bits/rank = tdp/rank approximation is not far off)
66/33 split = 5.0% lost
33/33/33 split = 6.0% lost
40/40/20 split = 6.8% lost
25/25/25/25 split = 14.4% lost
40/20/20/20 split = 15.3% lost
(sidenote: these are the only splits that are even possible, which is another feature that I entirely loath - hopefully this can be addressed too when a fix is implemented)
So basically every additional skill that you split causes you to lose more of your experience, and the more uneven that you split them the more exp you lose. If I were to do a 40/20/20/20 split, I would lose an insane amount of experience (equivalent to training up a new skill from 0 to 500 ranks). Also in case anyone is wondering, a 40/40/20 split would give me 763/763/576 ranks, whereas a 40/20/20/20 split would give me 709/534/534/534 ranks (notice the 40% and 20% values are drastically different), so yes there definitely is a massive amount of exp being lost.
My suggestion is to see if you can use the "bits/rank" = "tdp/rank" approximation and then perform a firm calculation based on that assumption, rather than the unspecified approximation being used now that clearly has major issues. Oh and also please please try to find a way to let us pick splits other than only the ones listed above, those are massive steps between the available options
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Would also like to echo being able to split mech more specifically. I was really hoping to just dump all the extra ranks/bits I had above my current circle into forging and save the rest for alchemy.
I think even just being able to weight things more than twice (say more like max 10-15 weighted options) would go a long way.
I think even just being able to weight things more than twice (say more like max 10-15 weighted options) would go a long way.
Thinks are definitely wonky with this. Consider:
>convert mech into mech forging engineering
If you split your mechanical lore between Mechanical Lore, Forging, and Engineering, giving you the following ranks:
>convert mech into mech mech engineering
If you split your mechanical lore between Mechanical Lore, and Engineering, giving you the following ranks:
So which is 33%? 487 or 520?
>convert mech into mech forging engineering
If you split your mechanical lore between Mechanical Lore, Forging, and Engineering, giving you the following ranks:
| Skill | Old Ranks | New Ranks |
| Mechanical Lore: | 930 14% | 487 66% |
| Forging: | 0 00% | 487 66% |
| Engineering: | 0 00% | 487 66% |
>convert mech into mech mech engineering
If you split your mechanical lore between Mechanical Lore, and Engineering, giving you the following ranks:
| Skill | Old Ranks | New Ranks |
| Mechanical Lore: | 930 14% | 691 57% |
| Engineering: | 0 00% | 520 40% |
So which is 33%? 487 or 520?
>Would also like to echo being able to split mech more specifically.
Heh. It was originally going to be that you could only specify each skill once. We at least got K to give you an option to weight a skill twice.
>(sidenote: these are the only splits that are even possible, which is another feature that I entirely loath - hopefully this can be addressed too when a fix is implemented)
You can get a little more options than what you listed, since I think you can respec multiple times, just not into the same skill twice. So you could respec mech/mech/forging and then respec mech/engineering and then respec mech/mech/outfitting, for example.
Heh. It was originally going to be that you could only specify each skill once. We at least got K to give you an option to weight a skill twice.
>(sidenote: these are the only splits that are even possible, which is another feature that I entirely loath - hopefully this can be addressed too when a fix is implemented)
You can get a little more options than what you listed, since I think you can respec multiple times, just not into the same skill twice. So you could respec mech/mech/forging and then respec mech/engineering and then respec mech/mech/outfitting, for example.
>>Why not just use the same way that the music lore split happened umpteen years ago? The way this seems to be set up now seems to be unnecessarily restrictive.
NewExp made it so that we can't use the same mechanism that was used in the Music Split.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
NewExp made it so that we can't use the same mechanism that was used in the Music Split.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>Why not just use the same way that the music lore split happened umpteen years ago? The way this seems to be set up now seems to be unnecessarily restrictive.
I asked this to Socharis last night, he said that the NewEXP system "doesn't allow it for technical reasons" (no idea what that means without seeing the code obviously). Also there was a second concern that I didn't particularly understand but it seemed like he was saying that since Exp Bits per rank scales at such a large rate (but exp bits absorbed per pulse also scales quickly), that people like me with 1250+ ranks would end up with 1000+ ranks in all 5 skills (or maybe I completely missed what Socharis was saying, entirely possible)
It still seems like there HAS to be a better way to do it though to at least allow a smaller step size in the possible choices than just 33%, 50%, 66%
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I asked this to Socharis last night, he said that the NewEXP system "doesn't allow it for technical reasons" (no idea what that means without seeing the code obviously). Also there was a second concern that I didn't particularly understand but it seemed like he was saying that since Exp Bits per rank scales at such a large rate (but exp bits absorbed per pulse also scales quickly), that people like me with 1250+ ranks would end up with 1000+ ranks in all 5 skills (or maybe I completely missed what Socharis was saying, entirely possible)
It still seems like there HAS to be a better way to do it though to at least allow a smaller step size in the possible choices than just 33%, 50%, 66%
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>NewExp made it so that we can't use the same mechanism that was used in the Music Split.
Sorry, I didn't mean re-use the code. I meant the same concept.
>>Also there was a second concern that I didn't particularly understand but it seemed like he was saying that since Exp Bits per rank scales at such a large rate (but exp bits absorbed per pulse also scales quickly), that people like me with 1250+ ranks would end up with 1000+ ranks in all 5 skills (or maybe I completely missed what Socharis was saying, entirely possible
I fail to see the problem with this. A bit is a bit is a bit. If you earned those bits, why should they be ignored?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Sorry, I didn't mean re-use the code. I meant the same concept.
>>Also there was a second concern that I didn't particularly understand but it seemed like he was saying that since Exp Bits per rank scales at such a large rate (but exp bits absorbed per pulse also scales quickly), that people like me with 1250+ ranks would end up with 1000+ ranks in all 5 skills (or maybe I completely missed what Socharis was saying, entirely possible
I fail to see the problem with this. A bit is a bit is a bit. If you earned those bits, why should they be ignored?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>I fail to see the problem with this. A bit is a bit is a bit. If you earned those bits, why should they be ignored?
I personally don't see a problem with me getting 1000+ ranks in everything :)
But if what I wrote above was even correct, then it would also be true that Exp Bits gained per hour of effort would scale exponentially as your ranks get extremely high. And I could buy an argument that 1 hour of effort at 1250 ranks shouldn't be 5 (or whatever #) times more valuable than 1 hour of effort at, say, 600 ranks. The number of hours required per rank obviously goes way up as your ranks increase, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't increase nearly as fast as the Exp Bits per rank (which is admittedly an imaginary metric and nonsensical to base things on)
Of course I would also argue that if they just released the mech lore split back in 2003 or whenever it was originally planned, I would have well over 1500 ranks in all 5 skills by now anyways :)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I personally don't see a problem with me getting 1000+ ranks in everything :)
But if what I wrote above was even correct, then it would also be true that Exp Bits gained per hour of effort would scale exponentially as your ranks get extremely high. And I could buy an argument that 1 hour of effort at 1250 ranks shouldn't be 5 (or whatever #) times more valuable than 1 hour of effort at, say, 600 ranks. The number of hours required per rank obviously goes way up as your ranks increase, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't increase nearly as fast as the Exp Bits per rank (which is admittedly an imaginary metric and nonsensical to base things on)
Of course I would also argue that if they just released the mech lore split back in 2003 or whenever it was originally planned, I would have well over 1500 ranks in all 5 skills by now anyways :)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Apu is basically right. The problem is that bits are no longer a good approximation of time spent, which is what we REALLY care about at the end of the day.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>It still seems like there HAS to be a better way to do it though to at least allow a smaller step size in the possible choices than just 33%, 50%, 66%
I want to heartily second the calls to allow for finer splits of Mech. Ideally I would put a small portion (smaller than 33% but not zero) into Forging, and hold the rest back until the remainder of the crafting systems are released, Alchemy in particular.
What about tweaking CONVERT to allow for five skill parameters, instead of the current three? That would allow for example:
>convert mech into forging mech mech mech mech
And thus put 20% into Forging while holding the rest back.
There will of course eventually be five crafting skills, so I think this also looks forward to accommodating players who choose not to split at all until all the systems are out, then want an even split.
~ Player of Farman et al.
I want to heartily second the calls to allow for finer splits of Mech. Ideally I would put a small portion (smaller than 33% but not zero) into Forging, and hold the rest back until the remainder of the crafting systems are released, Alchemy in particular.
What about tweaking CONVERT to allow for five skill parameters, instead of the current three? That would allow for example:
>convert mech into forging mech mech mech mech
And thus put 20% into Forging while holding the rest back.
There will of course eventually be five crafting skills, so I think this also looks forward to accommodating players who choose not to split at all until all the systems are out, then want an even split.
~ Player of Farman et al.
>>Apu is basically right. The problem is that bits are no longer a good approximation of time spent, which is what we REALLY care about at the end of the day.
No not really, you pick and choose where "time spent" is important.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
No not really, you pick and choose where "time spent" is important.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>No not really, you pick and choose where "time spent" is important.
You are missing the point. The way it is looking....
Rank 100 to 101 might take 3 hours of time to acheive, and is worth 1000 bits.
Rank 1000 to 1001 might take 15 hours of time to acheive, and is worth 500,000 bits.
Therfore you gain exponentially more bits per time spent, at the high end. This basically allows anyone with 1000 ranks of mech lore to instantly gain many thousands of hours worth of bits over someone with less ranks - for ABSOLUTELY NO TIME SPENT.
Lore is getting a bittersweet pill. Everyone's careers are being wiped (something we never said we'd do), but on the other hand you can't dump your mech into all 3 skills and get a 100% conversion rate.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
You are missing the point. The way it is looking....
Rank 100 to 101 might take 3 hours of time to acheive, and is worth 1000 bits.
Rank 1000 to 1001 might take 15 hours of time to acheive, and is worth 500,000 bits.
Therfore you gain exponentially more bits per time spent, at the high end. This basically allows anyone with 1000 ranks of mech lore to instantly gain many thousands of hours worth of bits over someone with less ranks - for ABSOLUTELY NO TIME SPENT.
Lore is getting a bittersweet pill. Everyone's careers are being wiped (something we never said we'd do), but on the other hand you can't dump your mech into all 3 skills and get a 100% conversion rate.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>No not really, you pick and choose where "time spent" is important.
'Pick and choose' is really the wrong term. We do the best we can, but sometimes there's no good solution that maximizes time spent approximations vs game balance. In this case, using bits neither benefits game balance nor approximates time spent, so there's really no reason to do it.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
'Pick and choose' is really the wrong term. We do the best we can, but sometimes there's no good solution that maximizes time spent approximations vs game balance. In this case, using bits neither benefits game balance nor approximates time spent, so there's really no reason to do it.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>No not really, you pick and choose where "time spent" is important.
>>You are missing the point. The way it is looking....
Nah I get it, my point was that you guys don't look at time spent for everything, particularly grandfathering is one of them. I'm not just talking about barbarian magic ranks either, but the mastery skills as well. It just is a little iritating that you guys will try to work out time spent for the mech split so people don't get TOO much (which is obviously fair and the right way to go about it) but you won't make an algorithm for other skills which are obviously way under but instead apply a blanket skill merge that ends up being A OK for some individuals but completely unfair for others.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>You are missing the point. The way it is looking....
Nah I get it, my point was that you guys don't look at time spent for everything, particularly grandfathering is one of them. I'm not just talking about barbarian magic ranks either, but the mastery skills as well. It just is a little iritating that you guys will try to work out time spent for the mech split so people don't get TOO much (which is obviously fair and the right way to go about it) but you won't make an algorithm for other skills which are obviously way under but instead apply a blanket skill merge that ends up being A OK for some individuals but completely unfair for others.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>you can't dump your mech into all 3 skills and get a 100% conversion rate.
I'm not saying there aren't solid game balancing reasons for downgrading how many bits you can convert from your mech into the new skills, but how does this gibe with the otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong) global standard/guarantee that we will not lose any earned bits with the conversion to 3.0? Will the lost bits from this tempered split end up in the bonus pool?
~ Player of Farman et al.
I'm not saying there aren't solid game balancing reasons for downgrading how many bits you can convert from your mech into the new skills, but how does this gibe with the otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong) global standard/guarantee that we will not lose any earned bits with the conversion to 3.0? Will the lost bits from this tempered split end up in the bonus pool?
~ Player of Farman et al.
>>I'm not saying there aren't solid game balancing reasons for downgrading how many bits you can convert from your mech into the new skills, but how does this gibe with the otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong) global standard/guarantee that we will not lose any earned bits with the conversion to 3.0? Will the lost bits from this tempered split end up in the bonus pool?
Mech Lore is the exception to the "you will not lose any exp bits" rule (if the original guarantee was even crafted that way, I don't remember the wording). If you split up Mech Lore then you WILL lose exp bits, but the intention is to approximate things so that you will more-or-less receive ranks of the same amount of "time spent training" (although even this is not true on the current Test server due to massive rounding errors that are intended to be fixed)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Mech Lore is the exception to the "you will not lose any exp bits" rule (if the original guarantee was even crafted that way, I don't remember the wording). If you split up Mech Lore then you WILL lose exp bits, but the intention is to approximate things so that you will more-or-less receive ranks of the same amount of "time spent training" (although even this is not true on the current Test server due to massive rounding errors that are intended to be fixed)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Is that official and final, Apu, or just the most recent version? Your statement goes a little bit beyond what I have read on this, so I must have missed a discussion about it somewhere.
Just to be clear, my question is specifically focused on what happens to the extra bits that might be lost in a multi-skill split, not the fact that those bits aren't going to be put directly into crafting skills. I don't think I agree with that policy, but at least I understand the reasoning behind it.
If those bits will be lost, I could use help understanding why there is an exception being carved out for Mech bits when all the bits from all the other deprecated skills, no matter how high they are, will go into the bonus pools, and eventually also be redistributed into lower-ranked skills, only gradually and broadly instead of all at once. The poster child is, of course, Vocals. That skill is the epitome of getting a huge pile of bits for virtually no work in-game. If we get all of those bits, why not the "trimmed" mech bits too?
In my own case, my mech is currently in the low 400's, and whatever small loss might happen would no doubt be made up pretty quickly. I just don't understand the apparent double standard being applied to Mech ranks.
I would also like some clarification on where things stand right now regarding how much we will be allowed to train the new crafting skills, and still transfer mech ranks into them. The way things stand right now, I probably won't transfer any ranks until all five skills are fully functional, but I really don't want to be shut out of enjoying and training the new systems until then.
~ Player of Farman et al.
Just to be clear, my question is specifically focused on what happens to the extra bits that might be lost in a multi-skill split, not the fact that those bits aren't going to be put directly into crafting skills. I don't think I agree with that policy, but at least I understand the reasoning behind it.
If those bits will be lost, I could use help understanding why there is an exception being carved out for Mech bits when all the bits from all the other deprecated skills, no matter how high they are, will go into the bonus pools, and eventually also be redistributed into lower-ranked skills, only gradually and broadly instead of all at once. The poster child is, of course, Vocals. That skill is the epitome of getting a huge pile of bits for virtually no work in-game. If we get all of those bits, why not the "trimmed" mech bits too?
In my own case, my mech is currently in the low 400's, and whatever small loss might happen would no doubt be made up pretty quickly. I just don't understand the apparent double standard being applied to Mech ranks.
I would also like some clarification on where things stand right now regarding how much we will be allowed to train the new crafting skills, and still transfer mech ranks into them. The way things stand right now, I probably won't transfer any ranks until all five skills are fully functional, but I really don't want to be shut out of enjoying and training the new systems until then.
~ Player of Farman et al.
>>If those bits will be lost, I could use help understanding why there is an exception being carved out for Mech bits when all the bits from all the other deprecated skills, no matter how high they are, will go into the bonus pools, and eventually also be redistributed into lower-ranked skills, only gradually and broadly instead of all at once.
Those are different circumstances though. The mech split is adding ranks from 0 on up and as described earlier the top end bits are exponential, so splitting your mech up would be much more bang for your time then putting it into 1 skill.
The difference is that, the bonus pool is going to be absorbed on all skills whether low or high. I mean someone technically could only train low skills to maximize their bonus pool bits until their bonus pool is used up but that in itself would be not optimal training anyways.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Those are different circumstances though. The mech split is adding ranks from 0 on up and as described earlier the top end bits are exponential, so splitting your mech up would be much more bang for your time then putting it into 1 skill.
The difference is that, the bonus pool is going to be absorbed on all skills whether low or high. I mean someone technically could only train low skills to maximize their bonus pool bits until their bonus pool is used up but that in itself would be not optimal training anyways.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>Is that official and final, Apu, or just the most recent version?
Anything I said is definitely not official, very unlikely to be finalized, and potentially even flat out wrong - but I think we can say with certainty that if they go with the current system on Test where Mech Lore conversion is approximated by "time invested" rather than Exp Bits, all those lost exp bits are obviously not going into the bonus pools. That would probably horribly complicated to code, and it would also not accomplish much of anything (instead of having to put them into mech lore skills, which is somehow deemed "too overpowered", we would be able to put them into ANY lore skill, which is obviously even more powerful).
>>If those bits will be lost, I could use help understanding why there is an exception being carved out for Mech bits when all the bits from all the other deprecated skills, no matter how high they are, will go into the bonus pools, and eventually also be redistributed into lower-ranked skills, only gradually and broadly instead of all at once.
They've already explained why they're making Mech Lore the exception, and while I don't like it at all (if they would've released the mech lore split years ago as planned, I WOULD have 1000+ ranks in everything with the same time invested, due to having 5 pools instead of 1), I can see the GMs' logic and agree that making mech lore an exception is at least somewhat fair. The main thing that is REALLY unfair with the current system on the Test server is that we get so little control over how to split up ranks, and that even going by "time invested" rather than actual Exp Bits, we still lose a ton of "time invested" if we split up ranks instead of putting 100% into one skill. That really needs to get fixed before 3.0 hits Live servers
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Anything I said is definitely not official, very unlikely to be finalized, and potentially even flat out wrong - but I think we can say with certainty that if they go with the current system on Test where Mech Lore conversion is approximated by "time invested" rather than Exp Bits, all those lost exp bits are obviously not going into the bonus pools. That would probably horribly complicated to code, and it would also not accomplish much of anything (instead of having to put them into mech lore skills, which is somehow deemed "too overpowered", we would be able to put them into ANY lore skill, which is obviously even more powerful).
>>If those bits will be lost, I could use help understanding why there is an exception being carved out for Mech bits when all the bits from all the other deprecated skills, no matter how high they are, will go into the bonus pools, and eventually also be redistributed into lower-ranked skills, only gradually and broadly instead of all at once.
They've already explained why they're making Mech Lore the exception, and while I don't like it at all (if they would've released the mech lore split years ago as planned, I WOULD have 1000+ ranks in everything with the same time invested, due to having 5 pools instead of 1), I can see the GMs' logic and agree that making mech lore an exception is at least somewhat fair. The main thing that is REALLY unfair with the current system on the Test server is that we get so little control over how to split up ranks, and that even going by "time invested" rather than actual Exp Bits, we still lose a ton of "time invested" if we split up ranks instead of putting 100% into one skill. That really needs to get fixed before 3.0 hits Live servers
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>Codiax.
Great explanation of why they are not allowing all the bits to go 100% into the new crafting skills, but this does not address why the "excess" bits discarded from a Mech split cannot be put into the bonus pool. That's what I'm specifically talking about, not the whole mech split issue.
>Apu
I respectfully beg to differ as losing the unallocated Mech bits doesn't seem at all obvious to me, in fact, the contrary. I'm guessing, though, that there has been no definitive GM statement on it. I think it would be obvious to apply the same method as being used in the creation of all the other new skills: chop up the relevant input skill(s) by whatever formula has been devised, and dump whatever remainder might be left over into the bonus pool. I think the situation is quite similar to how they are capping how much value you get out of high Stalking ranks--your new Stealth will be capped at 130% of Hiding if your Stalking is considerably greater; but the extra bits in Stalking above that 30% go into the bonus pool and are not discarded.
I fully understand the idea behind not putting all the bits from Mech into three to five brand new skills starting from zero, so that doesn't need expansion or explanation--what I am asking is, will the leftover discarded bits from that process be honored just like all the other bits from all the other skills that are going bye-bye, with no discarded bits even if those skills might also have huge bit counts from high ranks? This would treat whatever Mech is nipped off the top of the split just like every single other deprecated skill by putting its bits into the bonus pool.
I Am Not A GM so I cannot judge what is and isn't easy to code; however if you have a formula where you have known Mech bits as input, and a known total of bits landing in various skills as the output, it would seem to be a very simple matter of subtracting the latter from the former to know how many bits are being discarded.
FWIW I agree with you on the limited choices in the published mechanics for splitting mech. I posted a few days ago about a suggested solution but noone seems to have responded.
Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here. I'm legitimately curious as to how things will be handled, since after reading through a crapton of posts, what happens to the unused Mech bits seemed an unanswered question.
~ Player of Farman et al.
Great explanation of why they are not allowing all the bits to go 100% into the new crafting skills, but this does not address why the "excess" bits discarded from a Mech split cannot be put into the bonus pool. That's what I'm specifically talking about, not the whole mech split issue.
>Apu
I respectfully beg to differ as losing the unallocated Mech bits doesn't seem at all obvious to me, in fact, the contrary. I'm guessing, though, that there has been no definitive GM statement on it. I think it would be obvious to apply the same method as being used in the creation of all the other new skills: chop up the relevant input skill(s) by whatever formula has been devised, and dump whatever remainder might be left over into the bonus pool. I think the situation is quite similar to how they are capping how much value you get out of high Stalking ranks--your new Stealth will be capped at 130% of Hiding if your Stalking is considerably greater; but the extra bits in Stalking above that 30% go into the bonus pool and are not discarded.
I fully understand the idea behind not putting all the bits from Mech into three to five brand new skills starting from zero, so that doesn't need expansion or explanation--what I am asking is, will the leftover discarded bits from that process be honored just like all the other bits from all the other skills that are going bye-bye, with no discarded bits even if those skills might also have huge bit counts from high ranks? This would treat whatever Mech is nipped off the top of the split just like every single other deprecated skill by putting its bits into the bonus pool.
I Am Not A GM so I cannot judge what is and isn't easy to code; however if you have a formula where you have known Mech bits as input, and a known total of bits landing in various skills as the output, it would seem to be a very simple matter of subtracting the latter from the former to know how many bits are being discarded.
FWIW I agree with you on the limited choices in the published mechanics for splitting mech. I posted a few days ago about a suggested solution but noone seems to have responded.
Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here. I'm legitimately curious as to how things will be handled, since after reading through a crapton of posts, what happens to the unused Mech bits seemed an unanswered question.
~ Player of Farman et al.
I have another concern, as well.
I decided to try to gain a few ranks in forging before splitting my mech ranks.
It basically zeroed everything I had done, and just applied mech lore ranks, meaning it is NOT a good idea to try to train lores before splitting.
Not sure if it's intentional, but that's what happened.
~P
I decided to try to gain a few ranks in forging before splitting my mech ranks.
It basically zeroed everything I had done, and just applied mech lore ranks, meaning it is NOT a good idea to try to train lores before splitting.
Not sure if it's intentional, but that's what happened.
~P
I've updated the mech split mechanics a fair bit - They've been completely rewritten, so the old numbers are being disregarded in favor of the new ones. I still have some testing to do but I wanted to get it out for you guys to look at. Currently, it's in 'preview-only' mode - It won't ever do any conversion. Use the CONVERT verb for more info.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
> I still have some testing to do but I wanted to get it out for you guys to look at.
>>I'd like to take a look at this, but test-me already moved his mech. Any way I could get un-converted?
Thankfully I still half my mech left. Here's what it looked like:
>convert 100 mech into forging
>You are about to convert 100 of your 357 ranks of Mech Lore into your Forging skill, leaving you with 176 ranks in Forging and 257 ranks of Mech Lore.
>If this is what you want to do, please re-enter this command in the next 10 seconds.
>convert 70 mech into forging
>You are about to convert 70 of your 357 ranks of Mech Lore into your Forging skill, leaving you with 136 ranks in Forging and 287 ranks of Mech Lore.
THANK you, guys. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
>>I'd like to take a look at this, but test-me already moved his mech. Any way I could get un-converted?
Thankfully I still half my mech left. Here's what it looked like:
>convert 100 mech into forging
>You are about to convert 100 of your 357 ranks of Mech Lore into your Forging skill, leaving you with 176 ranks in Forging and 257 ranks of Mech Lore.
>If this is what you want to do, please re-enter this command in the next 10 seconds.
>convert 70 mech into forging
>You are about to convert 70 of your 357 ranks of Mech Lore into your Forging skill, leaving you with 136 ranks in Forging and 287 ranks of Mech Lore.
THANK you, guys. This is exactly what I was hoping for.
>>I'd like to take a look at this, but test-me already moved his mech. Any way I could get un-converted?
I'm trying to get everybody wiped out and reset to re-test the conversion mechs tonight or tomorrow.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
I'm trying to get everybody wiped out and reset to re-test the conversion mechs tonight or tomorrow.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>>I've updated the mech split mechanics a fair bit - They've been completely rewritten, so the old numbers are being disregarded in favor of the new ones. I still have some testing to do but I wanted to get it out for you guys to look at. Currently, it's in 'preview-only' mode - It won't ever do any conversion. Use the CONVERT verb for more info.
WOW holy crap that is demoralizing. Talk about making years of Mech Lore training in 2.0 nearly pointless compared to what we will achieve in a couple months after 3.0 hits live servers.
I mean I could kind of understand the logic behind making Mech Lore the only exception where our Exp Bits disappear without being converted into a new skill or going into a Bonus Pool - but now you went and took the previous Test Server incarnation where we lost a MASSIVE number of Exp Bits (for the semi-understandable reasons discussed previously) and then lopped off another 10% for the fun of it.
Can we just go back to the previous version please? Extra steps to be able to split up our ranks more precisely is nice, but it's not worth losing a flat 10% of exp bits for the privilege
At this rate I think I might actually be better off just getting all my mech lore exp bits thrown into the bonus pool and starting over from 0 in all the new skills, rather than having most of the exp bits just vaporize
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
WOW holy crap that is demoralizing. Talk about making years of Mech Lore training in 2.0 nearly pointless compared to what we will achieve in a couple months after 3.0 hits live servers.
I mean I could kind of understand the logic behind making Mech Lore the only exception where our Exp Bits disappear without being converted into a new skill or going into a Bonus Pool - but now you went and took the previous Test Server incarnation where we lost a MASSIVE number of Exp Bits (for the semi-understandable reasons discussed previously) and then lopped off another 10% for the fun of it.
Can we just go back to the previous version please? Extra steps to be able to split up our ranks more precisely is nice, but it's not worth losing a flat 10% of exp bits for the privilege
At this rate I think I might actually be better off just getting all my mech lore exp bits thrown into the bonus pool and starting over from 0 in all the new skills, rather than having most of the exp bits just vaporize
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>WOW holy crap that is demoralizing.
So... that's why I put it in preview-only mode and asked people to test it :-P. The numbers aren't final, so constructive feedback is probably a lot more helpful.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
So... that's why I put it in preview-only mode and asked people to test it :-P. The numbers aren't final, so constructive feedback is probably a lot more helpful.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
You should just give him 1500 in every lore.
Then permanently remove his hands.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
Then permanently remove his hands.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
>>The numbers aren't final, so constructive feedback is probably a lot more helpful.
Well I tried to give some constructive comparison from the previous Test server version to the current version, which appears to be about 10% additional exp bits lost. As some exact numbers, previously I was getting about 890 ranks in forging/mech if I split it 50/50, and now I would only get 845 in each. 890 in each was already a pretty massive vaporization of the number of Exp Bits I have on Live (which admittedly is a pretty absurd number of bits to split up with no loss whatsoever).
But then to see that number drop significantly... I don't really know what else to say, it's just very demoralizing that you are careful to conserve all earned Exp Bits in every other 3.0 situation, and then just take a sledgehammer to Mech Lore exp bits. I still say that at the absolute very LEAST, you should just use the same equation as TDPs per rank (i.e. what those 3.0 spreadsheets were assuming), which would put me at about 900 ranks in two skills after splitting evenly (i.e. about where things were in the first version, except with the new design where you can specify the # of ranks)
On the other hand maybe I don't even care anymore, it seems like just about the only logical situation would be to put all my ranks into Forging (thus conserving my Exp Bits earned) and then just train the rest up from 0. It's pretty hard to envision myself doing anything other than that unless something pretty drastic changes.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Well I tried to give some constructive comparison from the previous Test server version to the current version, which appears to be about 10% additional exp bits lost. As some exact numbers, previously I was getting about 890 ranks in forging/mech if I split it 50/50, and now I would only get 845 in each. 890 in each was already a pretty massive vaporization of the number of Exp Bits I have on Live (which admittedly is a pretty absurd number of bits to split up with no loss whatsoever).
But then to see that number drop significantly... I don't really know what else to say, it's just very demoralizing that you are careful to conserve all earned Exp Bits in every other 3.0 situation, and then just take a sledgehammer to Mech Lore exp bits. I still say that at the absolute very LEAST, you should just use the same equation as TDPs per rank (i.e. what those 3.0 spreadsheets were assuming), which would put me at about 900 ranks in two skills after splitting evenly (i.e. about where things were in the first version, except with the new design where you can specify the # of ranks)
On the other hand maybe I don't even care anymore, it seems like just about the only logical situation would be to put all my ranks into Forging (thus conserving my Exp Bits earned) and then just train the rest up from 0. It's pretty hard to envision myself doing anything other than that unless something pretty drastic changes.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>it's just very demoralizing that you are careful to conserve all earned Exp Bits in every other 3.0 situation, and then just take a sledgehammer to Mech Lore exp bits.
Like we discussed in-game and earlier in this thread, 'conserving bits' isn't really a logical thing to do in this scenario. And like I also said before, it's in test and on preview because it's still being tweaked. I can see the dramatic reaction if it was released like this Live in Prime without any testing, but there's a really good reason it's in Test, and there's a pretty reasonable track record of things being tweaked until they're in good shape.
Just be patient and we'll get it balanced out - if it's too frustrating to test as things are in flux, I recommend waiting until things are more settled before engaging with them.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Like we discussed in-game and earlier in this thread, 'conserving bits' isn't really a logical thing to do in this scenario. And like I also said before, it's in test and on preview because it's still being tweaked. I can see the dramatic reaction if it was released like this Live in Prime without any testing, but there's a really good reason it's in Test, and there's a pretty reasonable track record of things being tweaked until they're in good shape.
Just be patient and we'll get it balanced out - if it's too frustrating to test as things are in flux, I recommend waiting until things are more settled before engaging with them.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
<<I can see the dramatic reaction if it was released like this Live in Prime without any testing, but there's a really good reason it's in Test, and there's a pretty reasonable track record of things being tweaked until they're in good shape.>>
Ahem.
What about for those of us in plat, where CONVERT has been live? Will we get back any ranks we lost? Or are we the red-headed stepchild?
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
Ahem.
What about for those of us in plat, where CONVERT has been live? Will we get back any ranks we lost? Or are we the red-headed stepchild?
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
So I did some tinkering with the convert verb and wanted to share my thoughts.
We'll start with my thief:
First I've got 450 mech to split up and my "goal" is to keep the majority of it as saving for Alchemy and dump the rest (anything over 400) into Forging, possibly with enough in Outfitting to get Arrange All.
So I started small:
1-10 Mech ->= 3 ranks per mech
15 Mech -> = 43 Forging
25 Mech -> = 68 Forging
50 Mech -> = 120 Forging
100 Mech -> = 200 Forging
So basically, I started out with a 3:1 conversion, and slowly approached a 1:1 conversion on what looks like a pretty standard curve (logarithmic? Having trouble remembering trig/calc). Anyway the exact equation isn't really important.
My Trader started out with 263 ranks in Mech, converting similar numbers Had me starting with a 2:1 (Huge starting difference) conversion, approaching a 1:1 again. This is pretty expected since we're splitting "smaller" mech ranks. The rate that it progressed to a 1:1 conversion was about the same (100 Mech converted to 150 Forging). Overall Thoughts/Feelings:
1) On the low end, it's almost perfect, I think you should get a little more personally. I was hoping for a 4:1 conversion on my thief (450 starting mech) just because those first 50 ranks or extremely easy to get.
2) It looks like you get the best split by splitting 1 big skill into 1 almost-as-big skill + 1-3 little skills. This is great in my opinion since it's exactly what I want (other opinions will vary)
3) The 50/50 split pretty much sucks (both characters split 50/50 at about 1.3-1.4 ratios)
Further Questions:
1) Obviously something is determining your boundaries for splitting ranks. Is it mech skill or something else?
2) Do your ratio boundaries get recalculated after dumping some points into a skill? Since it doesn't actually convert anything yet I couldn't test this. I'm curious if I dump 10 ranks into a skill, then another 10 ranks into a different skill if I'll get a different ratio allotment for the 2nd conversion (I assume so since higher mech ranks are "larger").
Suggestions:
1) If your split ratio does change after conversion, it'd be polite to make it OVERWHELMINGLY clear that if you're going to split Mech into say a 90%/5%/5% split you should put in the 5% first since you'll get an overall better return than putting the 90% in first, and then breaking up the last 10% of ranks into two skills.
2) It's not a very elegant solution, but I think you could included "Even Split", "Tri Split", "Quad Split" options instead of using the "Custom Split." These could be 1 time, pick 2, 3 or 4 skills and get an even split between them, at a better ratio than what is currently available.
TL;DR / Overall:
Great for converting anything below 30% ranks in my opinion, above that is too harsh.
We'll start with my thief:
First I've got 450 mech to split up and my "goal" is to keep the majority of it as saving for Alchemy and dump the rest (anything over 400) into Forging, possibly with enough in Outfitting to get Arrange All.
So I started small:
1-10 Mech ->= 3 ranks per mech
15 Mech -> = 43 Forging
25 Mech -> = 68 Forging
50 Mech -> = 120 Forging
100 Mech -> = 200 Forging
So basically, I started out with a 3:1 conversion, and slowly approached a 1:1 conversion on what looks like a pretty standard curve (logarithmic? Having trouble remembering trig/calc). Anyway the exact equation isn't really important.
My Trader started out with 263 ranks in Mech, converting similar numbers Had me starting with a 2:1 (Huge starting difference) conversion, approaching a 1:1 again. This is pretty expected since we're splitting "smaller" mech ranks. The rate that it progressed to a 1:1 conversion was about the same (100 Mech converted to 150 Forging). Overall Thoughts/Feelings:
1) On the low end, it's almost perfect, I think you should get a little more personally. I was hoping for a 4:1 conversion on my thief (450 starting mech) just because those first 50 ranks or extremely easy to get.
2) It looks like you get the best split by splitting 1 big skill into 1 almost-as-big skill + 1-3 little skills. This is great in my opinion since it's exactly what I want (other opinions will vary)
3) The 50/50 split pretty much sucks (both characters split 50/50 at about 1.3-1.4 ratios)
Further Questions:
1) Obviously something is determining your boundaries for splitting ranks. Is it mech skill or something else?
2) Do your ratio boundaries get recalculated after dumping some points into a skill? Since it doesn't actually convert anything yet I couldn't test this. I'm curious if I dump 10 ranks into a skill, then another 10 ranks into a different skill if I'll get a different ratio allotment for the 2nd conversion (I assume so since higher mech ranks are "larger").
Suggestions:
1) If your split ratio does change after conversion, it'd be polite to make it OVERWHELMINGLY clear that if you're going to split Mech into say a 90%/5%/5% split you should put in the 5% first since you'll get an overall better return than putting the 90% in first, and then breaking up the last 10% of ranks into two skills.
2) It's not a very elegant solution, but I think you could included "Even Split", "Tri Split", "Quad Split" options instead of using the "Custom Split." These could be 1 time, pick 2, 3 or 4 skills and get an even split between them, at a better ratio than what is currently available.
TL;DR / Overall:
Great for converting anything below 30% ranks in my opinion, above that is too harsh.
>>What about for those of us in plat, where CONVERT has been live? Will we get back any ranks we lost? Or are we the red-headed stepchild?
Based on what Apu said, we got the better conversion rate.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Based on what Apu said, we got the better conversion rate.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>What about for those of us in plat, where CONVERT has been live? Will we get back any ranks we lost? Or are we the red-headed stepchild?
If there is any difference, it will be a beneficial one for Plat.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
If there is any difference, it will be a beneficial one for Plat.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Alright, so I ran some numbers and I think the conversions aren't as bad as they seemed. I've allowed the conversion to take place, and I've also added CONVERT SPLIT to tell you how many ranks to take off of your current mech lore if you want to split it evenly between skills.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Would it be possible to set it up so we could CONVERT MECH TO ### OUTFITTING so it would fill outfitting to exactly ### ranks?
Would it be too complicated to get a CONVERT RESET for test that would drop our crafting skills back to 0 and restore our original mech lore? Would be useful for testing different scenarioes.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
Would it be too complicated to get a CONVERT RESET for test that would drop our crafting skills back to 0 and restore our original mech lore? Would be useful for testing different scenarioes.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
