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Wasn't an improved engagement system supposed to be in the works for 3.0? Or at least improvements to hangback, the removal ofg charge, that sort of thing?
>>Wasn't an improved engagement system supposed to be in the works for 3.0?
Yes. It's live in test.
>> Or at least improvements to hangback, the removal ofg charge, that sort of thing?
I haven't tried hangback. Keep in mind new engagement is weighted towards melee now, so unless you severely outclass your target, you're not supposed to be able to stay at missile indefinitely anymore. I never heard of any plans to remove charge.
Yes. It's live in test.
>> Or at least improvements to hangback, the removal ofg charge, that sort of thing?
I haven't tried hangback. Keep in mind new engagement is weighted towards melee now, so unless you severely outclass your target, you're not supposed to be able to stay at missile indefinitely anymore. I never heard of any plans to remove charge.
>>I never heard of any plans to remove charge.
Kodius mentioned it in some thread on 2HE within the 3.0 folders when discussing the 2he defensive penalties with an arm-worn shield. I can't find it in threaded view. He was stating that a CHARGE verb would make missile weapons rather pointless if you could rush into combat.
And hangback still imposes roundtime for moving, ending up in a perpetual roundtime if you're not careful. I was hoping there might be some nifty things that allowed pole range to be a bit better, but it doesn't seem that way. You still auto-charge when you attack while advancing. The only good use of pole range is using shove, I think. Otherwise, you still have to manage it with retreats or hangback once you achieve pole range, or a spell that pushes enemies back.
I just figured, if you wanted to advance to pole range, it would be nice to have that option without having to interrupt your attack sequences with retreat or disengage before your attack (haven't tested whether this actually incurs the retreat debuff or not.) Otherwise, you auto-charge into melee range, use excessive amounts of RT and fatigue, and take a larger defensive penalty for doing so. It doesn't make sense, when you could make CHARGE a verb, and no-longer auto-charge into melee when you attack from pole. That, coupled with an ADVANCE POLE option that would stop your advancement at pole weapon range would be awesome. Honestly, someone advancing with a halberd in hand wouldn't even want to be at close quarters. Attacking during advancement for a halbardier wouldn't result in a charge.... he'd stop when he could hit you. It's self-evident.
I guess I was just under the impression that pole-range would be looked at and accounted for in an improved engagement system, was all.
Kodius mentioned it in some thread on 2HE within the 3.0 folders when discussing the 2he defensive penalties with an arm-worn shield. I can't find it in threaded view. He was stating that a CHARGE verb would make missile weapons rather pointless if you could rush into combat.
And hangback still imposes roundtime for moving, ending up in a perpetual roundtime if you're not careful. I was hoping there might be some nifty things that allowed pole range to be a bit better, but it doesn't seem that way. You still auto-charge when you attack while advancing. The only good use of pole range is using shove, I think. Otherwise, you still have to manage it with retreats or hangback once you achieve pole range, or a spell that pushes enemies back.
I just figured, if you wanted to advance to pole range, it would be nice to have that option without having to interrupt your attack sequences with retreat or disengage before your attack (haven't tested whether this actually incurs the retreat debuff or not.) Otherwise, you auto-charge into melee range, use excessive amounts of RT and fatigue, and take a larger defensive penalty for doing so. It doesn't make sense, when you could make CHARGE a verb, and no-longer auto-charge into melee when you attack from pole. That, coupled with an ADVANCE POLE option that would stop your advancement at pole weapon range would be awesome. Honestly, someone advancing with a halberd in hand wouldn't even want to be at close quarters. Attacking during advancement for a halbardier wouldn't result in a charge.... he'd stop when he could hit you. It's self-evident.
I guess I was just under the impression that pole-range would be looked at and accounted for in an improved engagement system, was all.
>He was stating that a CHARGE verb would make missile weapons rather pointless if you could rush into combat.
He was referring to ranged to melee rush abilities.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
He was referring to ranged to melee rush abilities.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
After 6 months of investigating engagement, no viable system that works for PvE without destroying PvP (or vice versa) seems possible within the game engine constraints.
If we allow ranged users Hangback, melee users will never have a chance.
If we allow charge to melee abilities, ranged users will never have a chance.
An engagement system consisting of various times to advance and skill checks exacerbates the problem. You'll still have plenty of examples where someone can hang back at missile range forever, shooting off a billion arrows and single-handedly destroying every last lifeform in the realms.
Despite this some changes had to be made, so retreat was given a small (but stacking) OF penalty. This allows you to either stand at melee and shoot your bow at people, or periodically retreat while incurring a to-hit penalty.
I would like to see Hangback become an ability where you can avoid contact with critters for a short time, with a cooldown. It would be less useful against players in order to keep PvP fair and competitive. Changes to Hangback and engagement in general will wait until 3.0 is out and we have more feedback on the system.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If we allow ranged users Hangback, melee users will never have a chance.
If we allow charge to melee abilities, ranged users will never have a chance.
An engagement system consisting of various times to advance and skill checks exacerbates the problem. You'll still have plenty of examples where someone can hang back at missile range forever, shooting off a billion arrows and single-handedly destroying every last lifeform in the realms.
Despite this some changes had to be made, so retreat was given a small (but stacking) OF penalty. This allows you to either stand at melee and shoot your bow at people, or periodically retreat while incurring a to-hit penalty.
I would like to see Hangback become an ability where you can avoid contact with critters for a short time, with a cooldown. It would be less useful against players in order to keep PvP fair and competitive. Changes to Hangback and engagement in general will wait until 3.0 is out and we have more feedback on the system.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Is there any thought to even having something like 1 second RT for retreat.
Further is there any way that combat could trigger a 1 second RT of leaving a room (might be very annoying, but given a chase, there is next to no way to hunt someone down [maybe that's working as intended]).
Anyways, don't want to put to much out there. Just a few shorts thoughts.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Further is there any way that combat could trigger a 1 second RT of leaving a room (might be very annoying, but given a chase, there is next to no way to hunt someone down [maybe that's working as intended]).
Anyways, don't want to put to much out there. Just a few shorts thoughts.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>>Further is there any way that combat could trigger a 1 second RT of leaving a room (might be very annoying, but given a chase, there is next to no way to hunt someone down [maybe that's working as intended]).
If someone has recently attacked or cast a spell, they are prevented from leaving the room for a time. This gives an opening for landing disablers, grappling them, tackling them, or taking other means to slow them down. But yes, chases can and should be occuring if steps aren't taken to subdue your opponent.
We aren't done making changes to engagement. It is a complicated matter, however, and stands to upset many people if rushed.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If someone has recently attacked or cast a spell, they are prevented from leaving the room for a time. This gives an opening for landing disablers, grappling them, tackling them, or taking other means to slow them down. But yes, chases can and should be occuring if steps aren't taken to subdue your opponent.
We aren't done making changes to engagement. It is a complicated matter, however, and stands to upset many people if rushed.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
No I totally understand, and just because I don't know if it was aware from how I wrote it:
I meant the Hunt verb (eight seconds and players are good and gone). Just wanted to put that in to clarify my point.
Though, your points were overlooked by me. Thank you for reminding me.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
I meant the Hunt verb (eight seconds and players are good and gone). Just wanted to put that in to clarify my point.
Though, your points were overlooked by me. Thank you for reminding me.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>>Is this practicable?
That sounds rather difficult to implement. We'll keep it in mind though.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
That sounds rather difficult to implement. We'll keep it in mind though.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>I would like to see Hangback become an ability where you can avoid contact with critters for a short time, with a cooldown.
Would it be possible to make it exclusively a vs critter thing and remove the cooldown or have it a retreat ability that doesn't give an OF penalty but will always fail its checks against a person.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
Would it be possible to make it exclusively a vs critter thing and remove the cooldown or have it a retreat ability that doesn't give an OF penalty but will always fail its checks against a person.
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
>>If we allow ranged users Hangback, melee users will never have a chance.
>>If we allow charge to melee abilities, ranged users will never have a chance.
But both of these are completely functional in Test, and we've had both for quite a long time already.
I know what you mean, though. To enhance/modify either could essentially negate either melee- or missile-ranged weapons. Melee- and missile-ranges make perfect sense as you've got them, and I can see and understand the consequences of a rushed implementation. I actually like how engagement works for missile-range and melee-range.
The problem that I've seen is that pole-range is still the red-headed-bastard-step-child range that doesn't get much consideration compared to the other two extremes, even though the number of pole-ranged weapons far exceed the number of missile-ranged ones. Nobody really cares that pole-range exists it seems, because you either fly straight by it or because attacking at pole- while advancing just ends up in melee-range with needless penalties.
>>If we allow charge to melee abilities, ranged users will never have a chance.
But both of these are completely functional in Test, and we've had both for quite a long time already.
I know what you mean, though. To enhance/modify either could essentially negate either melee- or missile-ranged weapons. Melee- and missile-ranges make perfect sense as you've got them, and I can see and understand the consequences of a rushed implementation. I actually like how engagement works for missile-range and melee-range.
The problem that I've seen is that pole-range is still the red-headed-bastard-step-child range that doesn't get much consideration compared to the other two extremes, even though the number of pole-ranged weapons far exceed the number of missile-ranged ones. Nobody really cares that pole-range exists it seems, because you either fly straight by it or because attacking at pole- while advancing just ends up in melee-range with needless penalties.
Suggestion for Hangback.
Can you just make hangback a tactical skill that based on tactic vs tatcis or something temp forstalls the ability to engage for like 10 seconds. Then have a cooldown or defense penalty for using it. Not sure if i'm explaining the concept right.
The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>
Can you just make hangback a tactical skill that based on tactic vs tatcis or something temp forstalls the ability to engage for like 10 seconds. Then have a cooldown or defense penalty for using it. Not sure if i'm explaining the concept right.
The Dragon priest hisses, "We'd have won, too, if it weren't for thossse meddling kidsss."
>
