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I don't know if this is the right folder because the forums are a quagmire of hate and sadness.
Remedies need something to make them worth making, carrying around, and using. I know it's a nascent system right now, but a few QOL changes would probably help, so...
Please change the weight of finished remedies to something closer to 1 stone per 5 doses. Right now it's...very very heavy. My herb pouch has ten remedies in it, none of which have more than 10 doses left, and it weighs over 70 stones. If I were to stock up with a full set of remedies I'd be looking at a ton of extra weight.
Please also change the ratio of materials:remedy. Right now it's 5 parts of an herb to make 1 dose of remedy. Even just 1:1 would be way better.
I'm unsure of how feasible this would be without poking harder into substances, but it would be nice if high quality remedies didn't leave scars behind. It'd also be nice if there was a distinct recipe for all external/internal torso injuries and head injuries, similar to how there's 1 herb each for internal/external limbs, even if it comes at the cost of potential potency.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
<<Please change the weight of finished remedies to something closer to 1 stone per 5 doses. Right now it's...very very heavy. My herb pouch has ten remedies in it, none of which have more than 10 doses left, and it weighs over 70 stones. If I were to stock up with a full set of remedies I'd be looking at a ton of extra weight.
I suspect this is because each dose has to weigh 1 stone since there's no smaller unit, so your 70 stones is from 70 doses of stuff. Perhaps if a stacking mechanism was put in place where the total weight only increases past 5 or 10 doses or something?
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I suspect this is because each dose has to weigh 1 stone since there's no smaller unit, so your 70 stones is from 70 doses of stuff. Perhaps if a stacking mechanism was put in place where the total weight only increases past 5 or 10 doses or something?
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I've found it's highly variable. It looks like each does does have to weigh _at least_ one stone, which is a problem, but I also have several remedies where it weighs an odd number of stones, like 5 doses weighing 7 stones.
I'm basically asking for the weight per 5 doses to cap at 1 stone or something similar. It can't drop lower than 1 stone that way, but then you can have higher numbers of doses without weighing yourself down a ton.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I'm basically asking for the weight per 5 doses to cap at 1 stone or something similar. It can't drop lower than 1 stone that way, but then you can have higher numbers of doses without weighing yourself down a ton.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I agree that remedies are extremely heavy right now and I would like some solution. At the moment I carry a specific subset of remedies for my greatest needs (e.g. nerves, chest), but it would be great if I could work up to carrying a full set before I'm 150th circle.
Also, as much as I love knowing the herb lore, it would be a huge help if they could be changed to be like, "a chest tonic" and "some chest poultices". It's hard to remember ithor tonic when I'm panicking in combat, even though I've used it a hundred times. Maybe an optional change with a cleaning cloth?
Finally, I'd love to be able to rub/apply the poultices and ungents from inside their container again. This was something I could do with old herbs.
- Navesi
Also, as much as I love knowing the herb lore, it would be a huge help if they could be changed to be like, "a chest tonic" and "some chest poultices". It's hard to remember ithor tonic when I'm panicking in combat, even though I've used it a hundred times. Maybe an optional change with a cleaning cloth?
Finally, I'd love to be able to rub/apply the poultices and ungents from inside their container again. This was something I could do with old herbs.
- Navesi
All of this thread. Weight reduction. Rubbing/eating from a container. The ability to make chest poultices.
Yes please.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
Yes please.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
I'd also love to see some QOL changes for remedies. I use mostly herbs to heal but I would have to stop if old, store bought herbs were turned off. It's not the poison aspect of the new system. I actually think that's pretty cool and adds a new element. No, I'd have to stop because it would take me forever to make the herbs I would need for hunting. The crafting RT's are understandable for durable goods but for consumables, I think the total time needs to be cut to a fraction of current and maximum batch sizes increased by a lot. As for weight, I'd like to see that reduced too because this is kinda heavy...
In the foraging apron you see a pot of hisan salve, a packet of plovik leaves, a pot of nilos salve, a packet of jadice flowers, a pot of georin salve, a packet of cebi roots, a packet of hulnik grass, a packet of nemoih roots, a pot of sufil sap, a packet of yelith roots, some vials of eghmok potion, some vials of aevaes solution, a pot of lujeakave elixirs, some qun pollen, a packet of riolur leaves, a pot of muljin sap, some vials of ithor potion and a packet of junliar stems.
You are certain that the foraging apron weighs exactly 518 stones.
That's about 30 doses of often used stuff and 20 of others.
A possible fix would be to factor First Aid into remedy use and give a chance to not consume a remedy if the First Aid skill check passes. This could scale with the severity of the wound healed or quality of the remedy or both.
In the foraging apron you see a pot of hisan salve, a packet of plovik leaves, a pot of nilos salve, a packet of jadice flowers, a pot of georin salve, a packet of cebi roots, a packet of hulnik grass, a packet of nemoih roots, a pot of sufil sap, a packet of yelith roots, some vials of eghmok potion, some vials of aevaes solution, a pot of lujeakave elixirs, some qun pollen, a packet of riolur leaves, a pot of muljin sap, some vials of ithor potion and a packet of junliar stems.
You are certain that the foraging apron weighs exactly 518 stones.
That's about 30 doses of often used stuff and 20 of others.
A possible fix would be to factor First Aid into remedy use and give a chance to not consume a remedy if the First Aid skill check passes. This could scale with the severity of the wound healed or quality of the remedy or both.
I can see about reducing the weight a bit. Not really sure how that panned out, I thought it was just 1 stone per dose but what you are posting seems much higher.
Remedies are not meant to completely eliminate the need for Empaths. Some are very useful and heal quickly. Perhaps that is the issue. Maybe the multi-area healing ones need to produce less per batch or something to balance them compared to the single-healing ones. Not a quick fix though... more like 4 weeks of labor :(
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Remedies are not meant to completely eliminate the need for Empaths. Some are very useful and heal quickly. Perhaps that is the issue. Maybe the multi-area healing ones need to produce less per batch or something to balance them compared to the single-healing ones. Not a quick fix though... more like 4 weeks of labor :(
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
FWIW:
> count oint
You count out 3 uses remaining.
> put oint on count
You put your blocil ointment on the counter.
Naissura puts the blocil ointment on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The ointment weighs about six stones," and puts the ointment on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your ointment off the counter.
> count ung
You count out 5 uses remaining.
> put ung on count
You put your nilos ungent on the counter.
Naissura puts the nilos ungent on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The ungent weighs about six stones," and puts the ungent on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your ungent off the counter.
> count elix
You count out 5 uses remaining.
> put elix on count
You put your ojhenik elixir on the counter.
Naissura puts the ojhenik elixir on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The elixir weighs about seven stones," and puts the elixir on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your elixir off the counter.
Honestly, even 1 stone per dose feels a bit too high to me, and remedies are already vastly, vastly more time consuming to make than any other comparable craft, to the point that it's deeply frustrating to get them crafted at all.
I truly believe that making remedies less of a grind (heh) to make and store will not remove the need or desire for Empaths. Empaths will continue to be better for a whole host of reasons -- they're faster, (frequently) cheaper, more thorough, don't require a lot of pre-planning, and there's a social aspect to it that a lot of players value. But Empaths aren't always an option, especially if you aren't around Crossing or don't play/hunt during primetime (or, you know, play a Necromancer). Remedies should be a reasonable substitution for Empaths in return for needing to take the time to prepare or spend the money to get your hands on them, but presently they don't feel that way.
I do understand you've got a lot on your plate right now and other systems are drawing your attention. Remedies and alchemy in general just feels like so much wasted potential right now, and I think even just a couple of tweaks to how they work would be a good stopgap until substances gets looked at a bit more closely.
(I'm also really hoping First Aid eventually plays a role in remedy effectiveness, but that's another story.)
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
> count oint
You count out 3 uses remaining.
> put oint on count
You put your blocil ointment on the counter.
Naissura puts the blocil ointment on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The ointment weighs about six stones," and puts the ointment on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your ointment off the counter.
> count ung
You count out 5 uses remaining.
> put ung on count
You put your nilos ungent on the counter.
Naissura puts the nilos ungent on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The ungent weighs about six stones," and puts the ungent on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your ungent off the counter.
> count elix
You count out 5 uses remaining.
> put elix on count
You put your ojhenik elixir on the counter.
Naissura puts the ojhenik elixir on the small balance scale and adds small stones one by one until the beam becomes exactly level.
Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The elixir weighs about seven stones," and puts the elixir on the counter.
You pay Naissura and take your elixir off the counter.
Honestly, even 1 stone per dose feels a bit too high to me, and remedies are already vastly, vastly more time consuming to make than any other comparable craft, to the point that it's deeply frustrating to get them crafted at all.
I truly believe that making remedies less of a grind (heh) to make and store will not remove the need or desire for Empaths. Empaths will continue to be better for a whole host of reasons -- they're faster, (frequently) cheaper, more thorough, don't require a lot of pre-planning, and there's a social aspect to it that a lot of players value. But Empaths aren't always an option, especially if you aren't around Crossing or don't play/hunt during primetime (or, you know, play a Necromancer). Remedies should be a reasonable substitution for Empaths in return for needing to take the time to prepare or spend the money to get your hands on them, but presently they don't feel that way.
I do understand you've got a lot on your plate right now and other systems are drawing your attention. Remedies and alchemy in general just feels like so much wasted potential right now, and I think even just a couple of tweaks to how they work would be a good stopgap until substances gets looked at a bit more closely.
(I'm also really hoping First Aid eventually plays a role in remedy effectiveness, but that's another story.)
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I understand :nod: Let me see if I can make some hopefully simple and not too consuming tweaks this weekend.
Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
You could add craftable containers that you can merge multiple remedies with. Sort of like a stacker for them that reduces their weight. Stone bottles, metal flasks, etc.
>>Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
I like all of these ideas. FA tie in would be nice considering FA currently does every little. It would also give Empaths a reason to use remedies in addition to their own healing spells. If you could swing it to teach a little FA while doing that it would see a huge uptake in the desirability of remedies IMO.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>>Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
I like all of these ideas. FA tie in would be nice considering FA currently does every little. It would also give Empaths a reason to use remedies in addition to their own healing spells. If you could swing it to teach a little FA while doing that it would see a huge uptake in the desirability of remedies IMO.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>>Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
Kodius, this sounds like exactly the right track. To reiterate an earlier poster this both gives a nice nod to FA, and would make remedies more palatable. While I 100% support the statement that remedies aren't there to replace empathic aid, I DO feel there's some fair wiggle room there. Empaths have a myriad of ways to grow and train without needing to feel tied to being a PC-Hospital (In fact, my empath is closing in on 400 empathy, the bulk of that NOT from healing).
Additionally - the place -I- tend to feel remedies are more handy are lower level characters. They don't have the plethora of resources of higher level characters (crazy armor, massive and plentiful buffs, etc), making taking damage a much more immediate thing. However a full set of remedies and scar fixers gets..heavy.
Thanks for taking the time and poking at it some.
Samsaren
Kodius, this sounds like exactly the right track. To reiterate an earlier poster this both gives a nice nod to FA, and would make remedies more palatable. While I 100% support the statement that remedies aren't there to replace empathic aid, I DO feel there's some fair wiggle room there. Empaths have a myriad of ways to grow and train without needing to feel tied to being a PC-Hospital (In fact, my empath is closing in on 400 empathy, the bulk of that NOT from healing).
Additionally - the place -I- tend to feel remedies are more handy are lower level characters. They don't have the plethora of resources of higher level characters (crazy armor, massive and plentiful buffs, etc), making taking damage a much more immediate thing. However a full set of remedies and scar fixers gets..heavy.
Thanks for taking the time and poking at it some.
Samsaren
>> Maybe a % chance to actually consume a use when used? FA skill would provide some adjustment to this chance? Plus lowering the weight somewhat? Just tossing out ideas that will need to be proposed/approved.
Both of these things would definitely add a lot of presently missing utility to remedies I think, particularly if consuming remedies started teaching some first aid.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Both of these things would definitely add a lot of presently missing utility to remedies I think, particularly if consuming remedies started teaching some first aid.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
>I like all of these ideas. FA tie in would be nice considering FA currently does very little. It would also give Empaths a reason to use remedies in addition to their own healing spells. If you could swing it to teach a little FA while doing that it would see a huge uptake in the desirability of remedies IMO.
Pretty much sums it up.
Pretty much sums it up.
An antidote for poison would also be nice in remedies.
As would a cure for disease.
And a vitality boost.
Antiseptic ointment that reduced the chance of contracting a disease.
Maybe a memory serum that automatically puts your armor and shield on when you waltz into combat.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
As would a cure for disease.
And a vitality boost.
Antiseptic ointment that reduced the chance of contracting a disease.
Maybe a memory serum that automatically puts your armor and shield on when you waltz into combat.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
Reducing weight is good. Would it be at all possible to introduce a couple new combination remedies? Specifically, one for head/eyes/neck internal wounds, head/eyes/neck external wounds, chest/ab/back internal, and chest/ab/back external? Right now, it takes 18 different herbs to cover everything, 8 each for internal/external wounds, and 2 for scars. Those four combined remedies would get the total down to just 8.
This idea is probably completely unfeasible, but what if remedies, instead being several stackable small items, were larger non-stacking items (like ingots) that could be combined/mixed through alchemy. Each item might have a base of 25 charges, and each use consumes 1-5 charges to reach full potency, based on First Aid skill. Since each remedy is a single item, weight could be reduced significantly if there were a maximum number of charges per item.
This idea is probably completely unfeasible, but what if remedies, instead being several stackable small items, were larger non-stacking items (like ingots) that could be combined/mixed through alchemy. Each item might have a base of 25 charges, and each use consumes 1-5 charges to reach full potency, based on First Aid skill. Since each remedy is a single item, weight could be reduced significantly if there were a maximum number of charges per item.
The problem with larger changes is you are talking months to get them proposed, approved and then coded up. I'm busy on 3 other crafting projects (some of which will result in new remedies for poisons and diseases). In most cases I suspect other GMs will respond with - "Remedies are already too good. They aren't supposed to replace Empaths".
Personally, I haven't used them enough to form an opinion. The premium Empaths are too good at what they do :chuckle:
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Personally, I haven't used them enough to form an opinion. The premium Empaths are too good at what they do :chuckle:
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Ok so remedies do appear to weigh 1 stone per use. This was the same in 2.0. I'm curious why it is now a problem? Just want to make sure I'm not missing something.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>In most cases I suspect other GMs will respond with - "Remedies are already too good. They aren't supposed to replace Empaths".
>>Personally, I haven't used them enough to form an opinion. The premium Empaths are too good at what they do :chuckle:
Every time I start to think that, I run into an Empath using Unity. Blows my mind every time its so fast.
Samsaren
>>Personally, I haven't used them enough to form an opinion. The premium Empaths are too good at what they do :chuckle:
Every time I start to think that, I run into an Empath using Unity. Blows my mind every time its so fast.
Samsaren
>> Ok so remedies do appear to weigh 1 stone per use. This was the same in 2.0. I'm curious why it is now a problem? Just want to make sure I'm not missing something.
I wonder if there was some stacking reduction happening. I don't remember carrying 200+ stones of herbs and i used to carry a full set around.
Is it possible it's because of all the other stuff you now have to carry? Before, you could just carry a single riolur leaf. Now you have to carry the raw leaf, the catalyst, the actual remedy, and all the assorted tools?
I wonder if there was some stacking reduction happening. I don't remember carrying 200+ stones of herbs and i used to carry a full set around.
Is it possible it's because of all the other stuff you now have to carry? Before, you could just carry a single riolur leaf. Now you have to carry the raw leaf, the catalyst, the actual remedy, and all the assorted tools?
>Is it possible it's because of all the other stuff you now have to carry? Before, you could just carry a single riolur leaf. Now you have to carry the raw leaf, the catalyst, the actual remedy, and all the assorted tools?
Well, it's not really fair to include all that other stuff in with the weight of the remedy. You don't HAVE to carry all that stuff, you can deed most of it, register the tools at a society, trade em in for repair tickets or just stick them in a vault.
2.0 had most of that other stuff as well if you played with the tincture system at all. Not to mention we didn't have pyramids you could fit into your backpack for less than a gold kronar.
Well, it's not really fair to include all that other stuff in with the weight of the remedy. You don't HAVE to carry all that stuff, you can deed most of it, register the tools at a society, trade em in for repair tickets or just stick them in a vault.
2.0 had most of that other stuff as well if you played with the tincture system at all. Not to mention we didn't have pyramids you could fit into your backpack for less than a gold kronar.
>Every time I start to think that, I run into an Empath using Unity. Blows my mind every time its so fast.
Basically this. No auto-empath/remedy is ever going to replace empaths despite what people seem to think when you take into account how fast empaths are now at healing(or even before, honestly).
Basically this. No auto-empath/remedy is ever going to replace empaths despite what people seem to think when you take into account how fast empaths are now at healing(or even before, honestly).
Put it this way: it is presently possible and arguably ideal (in terms of steadiness and ability to keep other skills moving) to learn Empathy without healing people. They're still the best healers, that's still their niche, but they have options that are reasonable replacements for healing. This is a great thing; Empaths were crippled for far too long by needing to rely on other PCs to advance at all and not a single person wants to return to the days of Transference. The same balance has not been struck in the other direction however.
If remedies are made better, Empaths will continue to be the fastest, cheapest, most efficient and easy way of getting healed. Their position as The Healer Guys is not at risk, and this is how it should be. It isn't just the weight or the 5:1 ratio for production or the sheer number of items you need to haul around and keep notes for or the incredible amount of skill you even need to make many of the things, it's everything combined. When you are left with a system almost nobody is using, that's a problem.
Remedies need to be a reasonable replacement for Empaths. Alchemists should have a reason to hawk their products, and people should have a reason to seek them out. If this isn't happening that indicates a problem with the system as it stands, IMO.
I'm really glad it's being looked at and I look forward to any QOL tweaks that are made to the system to make it more accessible and easier to use.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
If remedies are made better, Empaths will continue to be the fastest, cheapest, most efficient and easy way of getting healed. Their position as The Healer Guys is not at risk, and this is how it should be. It isn't just the weight or the 5:1 ratio for production or the sheer number of items you need to haul around and keep notes for or the incredible amount of skill you even need to make many of the things, it's everything combined. When you are left with a system almost nobody is using, that's a problem.
Remedies need to be a reasonable replacement for Empaths. Alchemists should have a reason to hawk their products, and people should have a reason to seek them out. If this isn't happening that indicates a problem with the system as it stands, IMO.
I'm really glad it's being looked at and I look forward to any QOL tweaks that are made to the system to make it more accessible and easier to use.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet makes a solid point. If Remedies and empaths are in such a conflict that the existence of both must necessarily render one or the other obsolescent when it comes to healing, the remedies itself ceases to be a reasonable thing to have in the game.
However, taking a look at Simu's other major product - Gemstone - they have herbs with instant healing. And empaths still exist. And still heal people. The time, expense, limited nature, etc. of acquiring and using healing herbs/potions makes empaths the premier choice.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
However, taking a look at Simu's other major product - Gemstone - they have herbs with instant healing. And empaths still exist. And still heal people. The time, expense, limited nature, etc. of acquiring and using healing herbs/potions makes empaths the premier choice.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
>>Robertdh: Anything that makes healing mules less necessary means more patients for actual Empath players. An empath gold standard only hurts empaths, that plays out in game.
If the patients that are being healed by mules just switch to using remedies, that wouldn't result in more patients for the real Empaths. That would, at best, be a net zero.
I do agree that remedies need some work, but let's not pretend that it's going to shift patients from mules to dedicated Empaths.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
If the patients that are being healed by mules just switch to using remedies, that wouldn't result in more patients for the real Empaths. That would, at best, be a net zero.
I do agree that remedies need some work, but let's not pretend that it's going to shift patients from mules to dedicated Empaths.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
An alternate proposal (again, probably for way later down the line):
Common, rare, and very rare herbs for each of all external fresh wounds, internal fresh wounds, external scars, and internal scars. Possibly still with a separate remedy for nerves, and rare to very rare remedies for poisons/disease.
You'd be cutting down 27-36 different remedies/crafts to 4-7. You wouldn't even need to mess with ratios or weight at that point.
Considering this would require an herb gathering system similar to mining or lumberjacking though (to account for rarity), it's definitely not a quick fix. It would make more sense and be far more user friendly than the current system though, particularly if First Aid began playing a role in wound treatment.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Common, rare, and very rare herbs for each of all external fresh wounds, internal fresh wounds, external scars, and internal scars. Possibly still with a separate remedy for nerves, and rare to very rare remedies for poisons/disease.
You'd be cutting down 27-36 different remedies/crafts to 4-7. You wouldn't even need to mess with ratios or weight at that point.
Considering this would require an herb gathering system similar to mining or lumberjacking though (to account for rarity), it's definitely not a quick fix. It would make more sense and be far more user friendly than the current system though, particularly if First Aid began playing a role in wound treatment.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I think the selling part is a fair point. Alchemy has been out for I think 1.5-2 years now(memory is fuzzy) and remains the only crafting skill that doesn't have an IG market. I've tried it and there were a number of problems that turned me away from it:
1. One shot consumables are an immensely hard sell in DR because they're the only things like that that exist. Other things exist(gweths, hiders, albredine rings) that have charges only expend a charge when you die/take them off so theoretically they could have a permanent use. I'm excluding arrows and smashers because arrow breakage doesn't seem to be working at the moment and permanent smashers exist even if rare.
2. Herbs are crazy heavy. I know it's been stated that that's been the same since 2.0 but if it's possible I'd love not retaining terrible things from 2.0. Large bundles of arrows(I have like 40 of the new ones) are only 1 stone so why not have a similar thing apply to remedies?
3. It's extremely hard to to keep a stock of prepared herbs available to sell to people because it takes so much to work to prepare large quantities. The additions of the dryer and heating press have been pretty wonderful but I think the 5:1 ratio is still one of the biggest problems for alchemy. When it's coupled with remedies being one shot you begin realizing you're spending way too much time gathering large quantities of herb for very few product that's used up way too quickly in comparison to the other crafts that have been released.
So for actual numbers purposes to fill out an order of 5 doses to heal everything it would be:
8 external wound individual crafts
8 internal wound individual crafts
1-4(I haven't tested again if the general healing stuff works so if someone could correct me that would be fantastic) external scar crafts
1-4 internal scar crafts
So that's a total of 18-24 crafts to fill out a 5 dose order. At the 5:1 ratio this is 450 or 600 pieces of prepared herb so time spent traveling to each location where an herb can be foraged is also a factor here.
I can check if need be how long it'd take on the external end for preparing at the highest quality but for preparing internal herbs that's another 9 to 12 individual crafts just for preparation. Grinders/press is an option but then you're lowering your own quality and risking not mastercrafting. Shaping has a comparable thing for lumber but then again, shaping doesn't require 25 pieces for anything but furniture.
So far we're up to 27-36(36 being the maximum if general body external and internal scars are still not functioning) individual crafts to fill out a 5 dose order for one customer. Wayerd pyramids can run concurrently with internal herb preparations so I haven't included the time spent on that.
I know how you feel about people scripting crafts which leaves me confused because it seems insane to expect someone to manually do all of those crafts to fill out one order. It's just asking them to automate it.
1. One shot consumables are an immensely hard sell in DR because they're the only things like that that exist. Other things exist(gweths, hiders, albredine rings) that have charges only expend a charge when you die/take them off so theoretically they could have a permanent use. I'm excluding arrows and smashers because arrow breakage doesn't seem to be working at the moment and permanent smashers exist even if rare.
2. Herbs are crazy heavy. I know it's been stated that that's been the same since 2.0 but if it's possible I'd love not retaining terrible things from 2.0. Large bundles of arrows(I have like 40 of the new ones) are only 1 stone so why not have a similar thing apply to remedies?
3. It's extremely hard to to keep a stock of prepared herbs available to sell to people because it takes so much to work to prepare large quantities. The additions of the dryer and heating press have been pretty wonderful but I think the 5:1 ratio is still one of the biggest problems for alchemy. When it's coupled with remedies being one shot you begin realizing you're spending way too much time gathering large quantities of herb for very few product that's used up way too quickly in comparison to the other crafts that have been released.
So for actual numbers purposes to fill out an order of 5 doses to heal everything it would be:
8 external wound individual crafts
8 internal wound individual crafts
1-4(I haven't tested again if the general healing stuff works so if someone could correct me that would be fantastic) external scar crafts
1-4 internal scar crafts
So that's a total of 18-24 crafts to fill out a 5 dose order. At the 5:1 ratio this is 450 or 600 pieces of prepared herb so time spent traveling to each location where an herb can be foraged is also a factor here.
I can check if need be how long it'd take on the external end for preparing at the highest quality but for preparing internal herbs that's another 9 to 12 individual crafts just for preparation. Grinders/press is an option but then you're lowering your own quality and risking not mastercrafting. Shaping has a comparable thing for lumber but then again, shaping doesn't require 25 pieces for anything but furniture.
So far we're up to 27-36(36 being the maximum if general body external and internal scars are still not functioning) individual crafts to fill out a 5 dose order for one customer. Wayerd pyramids can run concurrently with internal herb preparations so I haven't included the time spent on that.
I know how you feel about people scripting crafts which leaves me confused because it seems insane to expect someone to manually do all of those crafts to fill out one order. It's just asking them to automate it.
To further Esmian's post: Remedies cost an insane amount if you want to fairly compensate the alchemist for his/her time. The only reason I use remedies at all is because a good friend is an alchemist and doesn't mind giving them to me for free. The weight issue still keeps me from using a full set.
I do agree that remedies need to be a reasonable replacement for Empaths, at a higher (but still reasonable) cost. They should be somewhat heavy as part of the cost, but not as heavy as now, and they should cost more money, but not an order of magnitude more.
- Navesi
I do agree that remedies need to be a reasonable replacement for Empaths, at a higher (but still reasonable) cost. They should be somewhat heavy as part of the cost, but not as heavy as now, and they should cost more money, but not an order of magnitude more.
- Navesi
The niche I see remedies filling is one that Empaths aren't particularly reliable at -- in-combat field healing, keeping someone in the fight long enough to get to safety, or to keep the fight going until there isn't much of a fight left. Remedies by their very nature aren't preferable to an Empath, in any condition where any Empath, live or automated, was accessible. Not only are they inconvenient to carry around, but they work on a delay and leave scars that you then need a separate remedy for. Even when we could eat raw herbs (which I would also like back, as a Remedies technique), the very necessity of needing to forage up and carry around the items was enough to prohibit any abandonment of Empaths. A good litmus test in my mind is, at the end of the day, is a Remedy made with X ranks more efficient at a full-body heal than the healing offered by an Empath with even, say, X/2 ranks in Empathy and Utility. If not, we're good.
Weight is only prohibitive in combat (or while engaging in nefarious stealth-related systems). Even reducing the weight to 0 won't even make them more attractive than visiting an Empath. Similarly, reducing the time necessary to craft wouldn't increase reliance on them much, because it still requires rather meticulous preparation and at the end of the day, is still less convenient than actually running to an Empath when available.
Where I see potential improvements in the system are largely 1) making them more viable in cases where Empaths aren't available; and 2) making them more useful in combat. The suggested changes would go a long way to making both of those things happen without edging out our Puffin friends.
Having given this a bit more thought, I see a few improvements in addition to the rarity scaling thrown out by Thayet, as follows:
1) Add recipes combining created remedies into more general potions, to reduce item-count at the expense of using more effective charges (1 of everything) vs individual remedies, similar to what scars have, but obviously requiring much more time.
2) Reducing the time actively spent crafting remedies, moving a lot of it to passive timers i.e. tanning skin preparation and the old tincture system
3) More non-sun-dependent alternatives to pyramids that don't nuke quality at the high end.
4) More ability to choose to take on toxicity for efficiency and effectiveness.
5) Raw herb eating technique for a significantly less efficient heal that requires significantly less prep.
6) A full tree from 0-1500 ranks of mechanically useless cosmetic items that are really convenient to train the skill without leaving the Society - no pyramid necessary. Say, cosmetics, perfumes, colognes, face paints, and war paints.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
Weight is only prohibitive in combat (or while engaging in nefarious stealth-related systems). Even reducing the weight to 0 won't even make them more attractive than visiting an Empath. Similarly, reducing the time necessary to craft wouldn't increase reliance on them much, because it still requires rather meticulous preparation and at the end of the day, is still less convenient than actually running to an Empath when available.
Where I see potential improvements in the system are largely 1) making them more viable in cases where Empaths aren't available; and 2) making them more useful in combat. The suggested changes would go a long way to making both of those things happen without edging out our Puffin friends.
Having given this a bit more thought, I see a few improvements in addition to the rarity scaling thrown out by Thayet, as follows:
1) Add recipes combining created remedies into more general potions, to reduce item-count at the expense of using more effective charges (1 of everything) vs individual remedies, similar to what scars have, but obviously requiring much more time.
2) Reducing the time actively spent crafting remedies, moving a lot of it to passive timers i.e. tanning skin preparation and the old tincture system
3) More non-sun-dependent alternatives to pyramids that don't nuke quality at the high end.
4) More ability to choose to take on toxicity for efficiency and effectiveness.
5) Raw herb eating technique for a significantly less efficient heal that requires significantly less prep.
6) A full tree from 0-1500 ranks of mechanically useless cosmetic items that are really convenient to train the skill without leaving the Society - no pyramid necessary. Say, cosmetics, perfumes, colognes, face paints, and war paints.
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
>>3) More non-sun-dependent alternatives to pyramids that don't nuke quality at the high end.
>>6) A full tree from 0-1500 ranks of mechanically useless cosmetic items that are really convenient to train the skill without leaving the Society - no pyramid necessary. Say, cosmetics, perfumes, colognes, face paints, and war paints.
Yes Please.
>>6) A full tree from 0-1500 ranks of mechanically useless cosmetic items that are really convenient to train the skill without leaving the Society - no pyramid necessary. Say, cosmetics, perfumes, colognes, face paints, and war paints.
Yes Please.
Combat does seem to be their function. They really need some kind of bonus during combat to be truly useful. Pulsing vitality, fatigue, and mana restoring items would be immensely useful and would likely made remedies much more used. Those would be worth the toxicity. Stat boosters would also help, though those would counter the effects of toxicity.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
Taking stock of its defensive abilities, and attacking with a book of apprentice carving instructions, you are certain that the dire bear is a truly skilled opponent.
>6) A full tree from 0-1500 ranks of mechanically useless cosmetic items that are really convenient to train the skill without leaving the Society - no pyramid necessary. Say, cosmetics, perfumes, colognes, face paints, and war paints.
I'd be happy with:
1. a couple more templates in Simple Remedies that cover Complicated and Intricate and
2. 4 new forageable flowers (2 for internal, 2 for external), 2 that have a workability of 35 and 2 that have a workability of 70, so that there's actually a range of workability to play with instead of having everything 50 workability.
That'd greatly reduce the PITA of jumping tiers.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
I'd be happy with:
1. a couple more templates in Simple Remedies that cover Complicated and Intricate and
2. 4 new forageable flowers (2 for internal, 2 for external), 2 that have a workability of 35 and 2 that have a workability of 70, so that there's actually a range of workability to play with instead of having everything 50 workability.
That'd greatly reduce the PITA of jumping tiers.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
