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>>which means they are suppose to be better than any other weapon type
Please don't put words in my mouth. Tier is decided by weapon stat totals. Mirror weapons are Tier 8 by the totals. Whether or not that means they FUNCTION better, is up for debate.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>Christ alot of my haters are verbal today
Writing off people who disagree with you as 'haters' is one step up from the transparency of calling them all trolls. I don't know you from Adam. Don't really care either, but your inflated ego is abundant in this thread. You obviously know everything about everything.
You're wrong. Mirror weapons have 3.0 stats. You constantly banging and whining that the one you have doesn't doesn't mean anything more than that. Banging.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Writing off people who disagree with you as 'haters' is one step up from the transparency of calling them all trolls. I don't know you from Adam. Don't really care either, but your inflated ego is abundant in this thread. You obviously know everything about everything.
You're wrong. Mirror weapons have 3.0 stats. You constantly banging and whining that the one you have doesn't doesn't mean anything more than that. Banging.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
> Writing off people who disagree with you as 'haters' is one step up from the transparency of calling them all trolls.
Disagreeing with me does not make you a troll, its disagreeing just for the sake of argument and/or without any basis or knowledge of the subject to fall back on.
> You obviously know everything about everything.
I appreciate the vote of confidence sir.. i really do. But i am just an Elothean!
Disagreeing with me does not make you a troll, its disagreeing just for the sake of argument and/or without any basis or knowledge of the subject to fall back on.
> You obviously know everything about everything.
I appreciate the vote of confidence sir.. i really do. But i am just an Elothean!
>Petition to get Gnomeblade upgraded because it's more a 95 hardness weapon in the hands of a Gnome, which I think is just T5! :P
WTB Gnomeblade plz
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
WTB Gnomeblade plz
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>Disagreeing with me does not make you a troll, its disagreeing just for the sake of argument and/or without any basis or knowledge of the subject to fall back on.
Except for, you know, having one. And appraising it. But apparently that doesn't count because of some arbitrary time requirement? I dunno. Maybe you should lay out all the rules. You're the only one who says they haven't ever changed, while everyone else says you're wrong.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Except for, you know, having one. And appraising it. But apparently that doesn't count because of some arbitrary time requirement? I dunno. Maybe you should lay out all the rules. You're the only one who says they haven't ever changed, while everyone else says you're wrong.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
> Except for, you know, having one. And appraising it.
You DONT have one! You sold it. Having the weapon pass through your hands briefly does not make you an expert on what they are. Im going to ignore everything else you said because it is impossible to have a normal conversation with someone this bitter.
You DONT have one! You sold it. Having the weapon pass through your hands briefly does not make you an expert on what they are. Im going to ignore everything else you said because it is impossible to have a normal conversation with someone this bitter.
<<Are there weapons beyond tier 8?
I'm pretty sure you don't quite understand the tier concept. A weapon in a given tier does not necessarily perform better than a weapon in a lower tier, since tier is merely a summation of all the stats. There is enough variability inherent in this for there to be a lot of difference in how weapons of similar tier perform. For a single template tier is a good indication of functional power because the stats are aligned similarly, but across different templates it becomes blurred somewhat.
In the case of mirror weapons, the increase from base tier 4-5 to tier 8 is due solely to the increase in balance and suitedness and not the damage stats afaik, so it shouldn't be too surprising that a capped mirror weapon doesn't behave in the same manner as a tier 8 forged weapon would be expected to.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
I'm pretty sure you don't quite understand the tier concept. A weapon in a given tier does not necessarily perform better than a weapon in a lower tier, since tier is merely a summation of all the stats. There is enough variability inherent in this for there to be a lot of difference in how weapons of similar tier perform. For a single template tier is a good indication of functional power because the stats are aligned similarly, but across different templates it becomes blurred somewhat.
In the case of mirror weapons, the increase from base tier 4-5 to tier 8 is due solely to the increase in balance and suitedness and not the damage stats afaik, so it shouldn't be too surprising that a capped mirror weapon doesn't behave in the same manner as a tier 8 forged weapon would be expected to.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
<<Im going to ignore everything else you said because it is impossible to have a normal conversation with someone this bitter.
Irony at its finest.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Irony at its finest.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
As has been stated, Tier is not meant to mean "how awesome is it", it's "how many stats does it have".
You could in theory have a weapon with no puncture/slice/impact that had crazy suitedness/balance/durability and it would be pretty high tier.
It's not world of warcraft where tier 8 armor is inherently better all around than tier 7 armor. Throw the entire concept of "tier = effectiveness" out the window.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
You could in theory have a weapon with no puncture/slice/impact that had crazy suitedness/balance/durability and it would be pretty high tier.
It's not world of warcraft where tier 8 armor is inherently better all around than tier 7 armor. Throw the entire concept of "tier = effectiveness" out the window.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
I finally figured out where I recognized his posting style from.
Thief forums.
Welp, welcome to a very special list my friend. It's you, and Gonif. I can stand people being wrong, but your entire purpose in life seems to be as a legitimate troll. You offer no discourse, you never have conversations, you simply seek attention and to drag someone down and irritate them.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Thief forums.
Welp, welcome to a very special list my friend. It's you, and Gonif. I can stand people being wrong, but your entire purpose in life seems to be as a legitimate troll. You offer no discourse, you never have conversations, you simply seek attention and to drag someone down and irritate them.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
> As has been stated, Tier is not meant to mean "how awesome is it", it's "how many stats does it have".
You sir are in denial, the tier system is the attempt at an awesomeness scale, but in a very unbalanced world. If all systems were perfectly balanced, a tier 6 weapon would always be better than a tier 5. Since the end goal is to balance systems, its safe to say that tiers are scales of awesomeness. stats = power = awesomeness.
> Welp, welcome to a very special list my friend. It's you, and Gonif. I can stand people being wrong, but your entire purpose in life seems to be as a legitimate troll. You offer no discourse, you never have conversations, you simply seek attention and to drag someone down and irritate them.
What about pureblade? You mentioned Gonif without mentioning pureblade, yer gonna hurt his feelings!
You sir are in denial, the tier system is the attempt at an awesomeness scale, but in a very unbalanced world. If all systems were perfectly balanced, a tier 6 weapon would always be better than a tier 5. Since the end goal is to balance systems, its safe to say that tiers are scales of awesomeness. stats = power = awesomeness.
> Welp, welcome to a very special list my friend. It's you, and Gonif. I can stand people being wrong, but your entire purpose in life seems to be as a legitimate troll. You offer no discourse, you never have conversations, you simply seek attention and to drag someone down and irritate them.
What about pureblade? You mentioned Gonif without mentioning pureblade, yer gonna hurt his feelings!
>>You sir are in denial, the tier system is the attempt at an awesomeness scale, but in a very unbalanced world. If all systems were perfectly balanced, a tier 6 weapon would always be better than a tier 5. Since the end goal is to balance systems, its safe to say that tiers are scales of awesomeness. stats = power = awesomeness.
I seriously hope you are just trolling at this point. Otherwise I believe all your ranks have to gone to your head for you to say what the GMs mean, regardless of what they actually say.
Multiple GMs have stated multiple times that the tier system is exactly not what you just described it to be. It's just a crude way for them to label weapons/armor so that they can distribute them in the appropriate ways. Makes it much easier for any GM to decide what prize is appropriate for whatever fest, auction, raffle, or meeting without having to consult with Kodius on everything.
Mirror weapons have nothing to do with balance/suitedness needing to have more impact, so please quit making it about you.
I seriously hope you are just trolling at this point. Otherwise I believe all your ranks have to gone to your head for you to say what the GMs mean, regardless of what they actually say.
Multiple GMs have stated multiple times that the tier system is exactly not what you just described it to be. It's just a crude way for them to label weapons/armor so that they can distribute them in the appropriate ways. Makes it much easier for any GM to decide what prize is appropriate for whatever fest, auction, raffle, or meeting without having to consult with Kodius on everything.
Mirror weapons have nothing to do with balance/suitedness needing to have more impact, so please quit making it about you.
>>If all systems were perfectly balanced, a tier 6 weapon would always be better than a tier 5. Since the end goal is to balance systems, its safe to say that tiers are scales of awesomeness. stats = power = awesomeness.
IMO, the only issue with tiers is that item scripts boost tier and which item scripts are good are debatable. For example, IIRC the wind enchantment bumps items up a tier. So the wind weapons from one of the recent short quests say they're T5, but they have the stats of a 90 hardness item instead of a 95 hardness item. It would be interesting if we could see the metal stat tier + an enchantment boost rating (ie: T4+1 or T5+3, whatever), but that's another story.
That said, I think "has better balance/strength suitability as stats go up" is not seen as a bland script by the gross majority of players.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO, the only issue with tiers is that item scripts boost tier and which item scripts are good are debatable. For example, IIRC the wind enchantment bumps items up a tier. So the wind weapons from one of the recent short quests say they're T5, but they have the stats of a 90 hardness item instead of a 95 hardness item. It would be interesting if we could see the metal stat tier + an enchantment boost rating (ie: T4+1 or T5+3, whatever), but that's another story.
That said, I think "has better balance/strength suitability as stats go up" is not seen as a bland script by the gross majority of players.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> Multiple GMs have stated multiple times that the tier system is exactly not what you just described it to be. It's just a crude way for them to label weapons/armor so that they can distribute them in the appropriate ways. Makes it much easier for any GM to decide what prize is appropriate for whatever fest, auction, raffle, or meeting without having to consult with Kodius on everything.
Please tell me more about this amazing system used to distribute items in appropriate ways, that is not at all an attempt to categorize items by power.
Please tell me more about this amazing system used to distribute items in appropriate ways, that is not at all an attempt to categorize items by power.
> Power is a relative term when most scripts and enchantments that are added to the piece of equipment raises what tier that piece is in, regardless if it actually makes it more powerful in combat or not.
Hmm.. so yer saying enchantments will be able to raise the power of the item its put on?
Hmm.. so yer saying enchantments will be able to raise the power of the item its put on?
No one is disputing that tier is a system meant to categorize weapons by approximate strength. What you are (I suspect purposely) missing is that it is not a concrete designation of damage output like you are claiming. A tier 6 weapon does not by definition do more damage than a tier 5 weapon or even a tier 3 or 4 weapon. Is it more likely to do so the greater the difference in tier? Yes, but that depends on the specific stats of the templates in question, not the tier ranking itself. Because of the definition of tier, there are so many factors from a weapon's stats that a given tier has a very, very wide range of weapon stats such that there is significant overlap amongst the tiers if your only measurement of weapon strength is damage output.
E.g. A weapon that is 11/0/0 4/6, a second weapon that is 3/3/3 8/7, and a third that is 6/1/1 2/11 all result in very different results in combat, but are all the exact same same tier assuming the same constructuon stat for all of them.
tl;Dr - tier is a tool to help discuss weapon strengths in general terms, but isn't a hard fast ranking system.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
E.g. A weapon that is 11/0/0 4/6, a second weapon that is 3/3/3 8/7, and a third that is 6/1/1 2/11 all result in very different results in combat, but are all the exact same same tier assuming the same constructuon stat for all of them.
tl;Dr - tier is a tool to help discuss weapon strengths in general terms, but isn't a hard fast ranking system.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
To go a step further... someday there will be enemies that require special metals to hurt. A tier 8 weapon of the wrong material would be completely useless versus it. But a Tier 2 weapon made of pewter might cut them down like butter. Tier is a good indicator of potential power and the best method we have today for ranking prizes. But it isn't infallible.
I've recognized that Power/Balance are not as useful as puncture/slice/impact and am trying to improve that.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I've recognized that Power/Balance are not as useful as puncture/slice/impact and am trying to improve that.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Hmm.. so yer saying enchantments will be able to raise the power of the item its put on?
It depends on what you mean by power.
Not all enchantments in crafting (let alone quest prizes) result in just doing more damage. Some might be more esoteric (ie: the wind enchantment some items have), if not completely disconnected from combat as a whole (ie: lightbulb enchantment).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It depends on what you mean by power.
Not all enchantments in crafting (let alone quest prizes) result in just doing more damage. Some might be more esoteric (ie: the wind enchantment some items have), if not completely disconnected from combat as a whole (ie: lightbulb enchantment).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> tl;Dr - tier is a tool to help discuss weapon strengths in general terms, but isn't a hard fast ranking system.
Go away
> E.g. A weapon that is 11/0/0 4/6, a second weapon that is 3/3/3 8/7, and a third that is 6/1/1 2/11 all result in very different results in combat, but are all the exact same same tier assuming the same constructuon stat for all of them.
Yer going to tell me that tier is not a general indication of power because there are other factors on the defensive side that may change the outcome of results? That is... absurd. There is no absolute and perfect scale of power that can account for both sides, nor did I ever suggest tier included this. I was speaking of POTENTIAL power/damage output, before it is applied against any special mechanics or specific armor types with varying damage resistance.
Go away
> E.g. A weapon that is 11/0/0 4/6, a second weapon that is 3/3/3 8/7, and a third that is 6/1/1 2/11 all result in very different results in combat, but are all the exact same same tier assuming the same constructuon stat for all of them.
Yer going to tell me that tier is not a general indication of power because there are other factors on the defensive side that may change the outcome of results? That is... absurd. There is no absolute and perfect scale of power that can account for both sides, nor did I ever suggest tier included this. I was speaking of POTENTIAL power/damage output, before it is applied against any special mechanics or specific armor types with varying damage resistance.
>>Yer going to tell me that tier is not a general indication of power because there are other factors on the defensive side that may change the outcome of results?
Tier is a general indication of power, but not everything you might consider "power" is going to be the only factor that is considered in that ranking. It might be better to really regard tier as "awesomeness" or "specialness", vs straight up ability to kill stuff dead.
Midsteel is 4. Midsteel + most enhancements/enchantments/scripts is 5.
Meanwhile, 95 harndess (kertig/glaes/haralun/etc) is also 5. But also don't forget that density is not really factored into tier, either, so a minimum density weapon at X hardness is the same tier as a maximum density weapon at X hardness.
Also keep in mind that some things GMs use to determine tier on their side might not be things that you, as a player, really care all that much about. IIRC, things like "rare materials" can move an item up a tier, as well. Do you care that the midsteel broadsword has a wind enchantment and has a Fortune diamond in the hilt, because those two things might make it T6, which has a GM go "Okay, so this should be some kind of auction thing and not a normal festival store item."
AFAIK, tiers exist more for GMs than for players because it is used mainly to determine if something is appropriate to release in a certain context. It isn't just about the item's stats. What players see (or value) as tiers aren't the only things that always matter for GMs. That's when I check out items for people when they want to know how awesome/not awesome/etc it is, I trend more toward saying what material stats they seem to be made from, because they often want to know how the weapon they found relates to a rare metal weapon they had made.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Tier is a general indication of power, but not everything you might consider "power" is going to be the only factor that is considered in that ranking. It might be better to really regard tier as "awesomeness" or "specialness", vs straight up ability to kill stuff dead.
Midsteel is 4. Midsteel + most enhancements/enchantments/scripts is 5.
Meanwhile, 95 harndess (kertig/glaes/haralun/etc) is also 5. But also don't forget that density is not really factored into tier, either, so a minimum density weapon at X hardness is the same tier as a maximum density weapon at X hardness.
Also keep in mind that some things GMs use to determine tier on their side might not be things that you, as a player, really care all that much about. IIRC, things like "rare materials" can move an item up a tier, as well. Do you care that the midsteel broadsword has a wind enchantment and has a Fortune diamond in the hilt, because those two things might make it T6, which has a GM go "Okay, so this should be some kind of auction thing and not a normal festival store item."
AFAIK, tiers exist more for GMs than for players because it is used mainly to determine if something is appropriate to release in a certain context. It isn't just about the item's stats. What players see (or value) as tiers aren't the only things that always matter for GMs. That's when I check out items for people when they want to know how awesome/not awesome/etc it is, I trend more toward saying what material stats they seem to be made from, because they often want to know how the weapon they found relates to a rare metal weapon they had made.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> Also keep in mind that some things GMs use to determine tier on their side might not be things that you, as a player, really care all that much about. IIRC, things like "rare materials" can move an item up a tier, as well. Do you care that the midsteel broadsword has a wind enchantment and has a Fortune diamond in the hilt, because those two things might make it T6, which has a GM go "Okay, so this should be some kind of auction thing and not a normal festival store item."
Useless trinkets attached to gear would definitely make tier less of a measure of power if you include those. That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power. It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
Useless trinkets attached to gear would definitely make tier less of a measure of power if you include those. That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power. It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
>E.g. A weapon that is 11/0/0 4/6, a second weapon that is 3/3/3 8/7, and a third that is 6/1/1 2/11 all result in very different results in combat
For the record, I want that 3/3/3 8/7.
>Useless trinkets attached to gear would definitely make tier less of a measure of power if you include those. That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power.
This is the correct use of tiers.
>It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
This is not the correct use of tiers. Although it is correct if you strip items of all the fluff, scripts, and just compare raw stats, but that really only is good for comparing forged things with other forged things, which is probably why it is included in the Tiers ranking and considered separate from the actual quality level as a measuring stick to compare against.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
For the record, I want that 3/3/3 8/7.
>Useless trinkets attached to gear would definitely make tier less of a measure of power if you include those. That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power.
This is the correct use of tiers.
>It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
This is not the correct use of tiers. Although it is correct if you strip items of all the fluff, scripts, and just compare raw stats, but that really only is good for comparing forged things with other forged things, which is probably why it is included in the Tiers ranking and considered separate from the actual quality level as a measuring stick to compare against.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>>Useless trinkets attached to gear would definitely make tier less of a measure of power if you include those.
As I said, what you define as useless is up to you.
>>That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power
Not perceived item value to a player, but what GMs see as value in an item. What a player sees is up to whatever a player sees.
>>It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
That's why I trend toward using hardness vs tier if a player asks me how something compares stat-wise.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
As I said, what you define as useless is up to you.
>>That would suggest GMs use it internally to try to measure perceived item value to a player, and not power
Not perceived item value to a player, but what GMs see as value in an item. What a player sees is up to whatever a player sees.
>>It can be a measurement of potential power if you don't include useless trinkets, which is how I typically use it.
That's why I trend toward using hardness vs tier if a player asks me how something compares stat-wise.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
<<Yer going to tell me that tier is not a general indication of power because there are other factors on the defensive side that may change the outcome of results?
Umm... what the? Seriously. How the heck did you get this out of my post? There was literally zero mention of the defense side of the calculation.
Here, I'll spell it out for you and then chalk you up as a troll to put on ignore if you still persist in being obtuse:
Mirror Blades at their base stats are about the same stat-wise as an equivalent tier 4/5 forged weapon. Higher tier versions of forged weapons stack on the damage stats because players are able to choose what to stack and puncture/slice/impact have been shown to have the most impact on damage and combat performance. By contrast, Mirror Blades instead gain balance/suitedness primarily as players cap out their stats. So you have a tier 8 mirror blade at capped stats that is primarily only so because of it's balance and suitedness stats that is compared to a high tier forged weapon with much higher damage stats. Given the way that weapon stats currently work this means the forged weapon wins out in terms of raw damage output. The tier means nothing as a comparison of damage output in this case because of the way the stats line up.
Kodius is aware of the lesser usefulness of balance and suitedness which is why he has proposed the whole fumble/recovery system that is currently live on test. I suggest testing it out over there with your mirror blade and a high tier forged weapon to compare how they perform so that you can provide some actual meaningful feedback instead of this trollfest you have going now.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Umm... what the? Seriously. How the heck did you get this out of my post? There was literally zero mention of the defense side of the calculation.
Here, I'll spell it out for you and then chalk you up as a troll to put on ignore if you still persist in being obtuse:
Mirror Blades at their base stats are about the same stat-wise as an equivalent tier 4/5 forged weapon. Higher tier versions of forged weapons stack on the damage stats because players are able to choose what to stack and puncture/slice/impact have been shown to have the most impact on damage and combat performance. By contrast, Mirror Blades instead gain balance/suitedness primarily as players cap out their stats. So you have a tier 8 mirror blade at capped stats that is primarily only so because of it's balance and suitedness stats that is compared to a high tier forged weapon with much higher damage stats. Given the way that weapon stats currently work this means the forged weapon wins out in terms of raw damage output. The tier means nothing as a comparison of damage output in this case because of the way the stats line up.
Kodius is aware of the lesser usefulness of balance and suitedness which is why he has proposed the whole fumble/recovery system that is currently live on test. I suggest testing it out over there with your mirror blade and a high tier forged weapon to compare how they perform so that you can provide some actual meaningful feedback instead of this trollfest you have going now.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
I think Kodius addressing balance and suitedness is going to do a world of good in the long run. I do get the idea of what Raikage is getting at when he mentions power of a weapon. I think it comes from this piece of information Kodius stated: "Tier is determined by stat summation." The two mathematical factors that do not do much of anything in the current summation concept are balance and suitedness. For instance, if you lower the balance by 2 points on a crafted weapon, you increase the suitedness by 2 points, resulting in a wash (this is also typical in shop quality and auction quality stuff). Example: likely, a terribly balanced greatsword will have the same overall balance/suited tally as a soundly balanced one. On the other hand, one would expect, since "tier is determined by stat summation," a superbly balanced/suited greatsword would be a higher tier and also perform noticeably greater (which it doesn't seem to do, currently).
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
I do know that it seems that Tier 4 + verbs = Tier 5 based on quest prizes.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
> Umm... what the? Seriously. How the heck did you get this out of my post? There was literally zero mention of the defense side of the calculation.
I was not talking to you. Go away.
> Tier is a bad gradement system just because Crossings broadsword + light + gore + wind = tier 5 weapon with crap stats.
Good lord.. we JUST talked about removing the fluff and scripts from a weapon to judge its power. I swear you people read what you wanna read.
> Here, I'll spell it out for you and then chalk you up as a troll to put on ignore if you still persist in being obtuse:
Please.. PLEASE.. Put me on ignore. Then I don't have to listen to you rage ever again.
In light of my interest of not being beheaded by Kodius, im going to duck out of this conversation that is not really benefiting anyone. I am very excited for the balance/power changes and what they could bring, as well as hints of a new alchemy/poison system that may one day exist. If anything in this thread offended anyone, you are welcome to come kill me for it. (except Kodius)
I was not talking to you. Go away.
> Tier is a bad gradement system just because Crossings broadsword + light + gore + wind = tier 5 weapon with crap stats.
Good lord.. we JUST talked about removing the fluff and scripts from a weapon to judge its power. I swear you people read what you wanna read.
> Here, I'll spell it out for you and then chalk you up as a troll to put on ignore if you still persist in being obtuse:
Please.. PLEASE.. Put me on ignore. Then I don't have to listen to you rage ever again.
In light of my interest of not being beheaded by Kodius, im going to duck out of this conversation that is not really benefiting anyone. I am very excited for the balance/power changes and what they could bring, as well as hints of a new alchemy/poison system that may one day exist. If anything in this thread offended anyone, you are welcome to come kill me for it. (except Kodius)
>>I do know that it seems that Tier 4 + verbs = Tier 5 based on quest prizes.
I don't think verby scripts bump things up a tier unless it's something notably special. Which item are you thinking of in particular?
>>Good lord.. we JUST talked about removing the fluff and scripts from a weapon to judge its power. I swear you people read what you wanna read.
Except some scripts do influence a weapon's power. It's just that they're not exactly a power you might care all that much about. Beyond that, you're asking for tiers to do something they're not meant to accomplish in exchange for ditching what they do accomplish. Plus you seem to be ignoring suggestions like making tier item stats+script to show what is causing the total tier (that way, everyone gets what they want).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I don't think verby scripts bump things up a tier unless it's something notably special. Which item are you thinking of in particular?
>>Good lord.. we JUST talked about removing the fluff and scripts from a weapon to judge its power. I swear you people read what you wanna read.
Except some scripts do influence a weapon's power. It's just that they're not exactly a power you might care all that much about. Beyond that, you're asking for tiers to do something they're not meant to accomplish in exchange for ditching what they do accomplish. Plus you seem to be ignoring suggestions like making tier item stats+script to show what is causing the total tier (that way, everyone gets what they want).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Tier is a bad gradement system just because Crossings broadsword + light + gore + wind = tier 5 weapon with crap stats. So it's not a power ranking system, from a damage perspective.
A bad example because items can generally only have 1 special thing on them (which is why enchanting and poison application require a more in-depth proposal and are more difficult to create).
But yes, having fluff verbs does increase the Tier by 1. The thought is that some players might find a really cool and descriptive and unique weapon more desirable than +damage. This makes more sense when you consider the stat difference between a Tier 6 and 7 weapon is less than between a tier 5 and 6 which is less than between 4 and 5.
Weapon stats tend to work like player stats in that while more is always better, they are less better. At some point the fluff stuff IS likely more attractive than +damage.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
A bad example because items can generally only have 1 special thing on them (which is why enchanting and poison application require a more in-depth proposal and are more difficult to create).
But yes, having fluff verbs does increase the Tier by 1. The thought is that some players might find a really cool and descriptive and unique weapon more desirable than +damage. This makes more sense when you consider the stat difference between a Tier 6 and 7 weapon is less than between a tier 5 and 6 which is less than between 4 and 5.
Weapon stats tend to work like player stats in that while more is always better, they are less better. At some point the fluff stuff IS likely more attractive than +damage.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>A bad example because items can generally only have 1 special thing on them
As always:
http://bit.ly/sQHqP4
A deliberate overstatement not to be taken literally.
Or: I deliberately overstate the number of 'things' which could be attached to an item to demonstrate why tiering in DR is a badly graded mechanism. It's too subjective from both player and GM perspective, AND from the input and output perspective.
No reallistic person who cares about tiering is going to go 'oh look, it's a tier 2 weapons with +5 crap scripts on it! I totally need to pay as much for it as I would for a tier 7 weapon!'.
No one, really, is even going to treat a tier 5 weapon with a light script as anything other than a tier 5 weapon that does something novel. It's not a tier 6 or 7 weapon for anyone but the GMs. Same goes for the food/drink scripts.
When you get into things like the wind scripts, those are more arguable since they do have combat applications, but it's still more a novelty and/or annoyance than anything else.
So if we wanted a tiering system that actually worked, we'd have to grade on power + other. So it would be a tier 5 weapon + 1-5 tiers of 'scripts' like gore, etc.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
As always:
http://bit.ly/sQHqP4
A deliberate overstatement not to be taken literally.
Or: I deliberately overstate the number of 'things' which could be attached to an item to demonstrate why tiering in DR is a badly graded mechanism. It's too subjective from both player and GM perspective, AND from the input and output perspective.
No reallistic person who cares about tiering is going to go 'oh look, it's a tier 2 weapons with +5 crap scripts on it! I totally need to pay as much for it as I would for a tier 7 weapon!'.
No one, really, is even going to treat a tier 5 weapon with a light script as anything other than a tier 5 weapon that does something novel. It's not a tier 6 or 7 weapon for anyone but the GMs. Same goes for the food/drink scripts.
When you get into things like the wind scripts, those are more arguable since they do have combat applications, but it's still more a novelty and/or annoyance than anything else.
So if we wanted a tiering system that actually worked, we'd have to grade on power + other. So it would be a tier 5 weapon + 1-5 tiers of 'scripts' like gore, etc.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Eh, I've been playing other MMOs where players will spend hundreds of hours grinding for better looking gear. Was worried our guild mate might drive 1500 miles to our house and beat my face in for winning the neck ribbon roll. There ARE people who care about looks once stats taper off. But they usually aren't the personality types that come to the forums and get argumentative about these sorts of things :P
Having a Tier 2 weapon reach Tier 7 due to the stacking of multiple fluff effects DOES NOT HAPPEN. That is the point I was making.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Having a Tier 2 weapon reach Tier 7 due to the stacking of multiple fluff effects DOES NOT HAPPEN. That is the point I was making.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
It would be interesting to submit a survey to the game population to see what all they look for in gear. I honestly don't know what people prefer most regarding damage output, special properties, and cool fluffiness.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
>Eh, I've been playing other MMOs where players will spend hundreds of hours grinding for better looking gear. Was worried our guild mate might drive 1500 miles to our house and beat my face in for winning the neck ribbon roll. There ARE people who care about looks once stats taper off. But they usually aren't the personality types that come to the forums and get argumentative about these sorts of things :P
>Having a Tier 2 weapon reach Tier 7 due to the stacking of multiple fluff effects DOES NOT HAPPEN. That is the point I was making.
No one said it does. Hyperbole. How does that work?
Also, you grossly and quickly glossed over a very important part of your statement, which was 'once stats taper off'.
The difference between a tier 5 and tier 6 weapon isn't earthshattering, but it's not insignificant either. So if we use a reasonable example of a tier 6 axe being either 'real' tier 6, or tier 5+ a script, or tier 4 + a script, the difference becomes fairly substantial.
Also, it sounds like the game you're talking about (hundreds of hours of grinding) is...a lot different from DR. DR you can't really 'grind' anything. It's all out there. There aren't drop rates and instances and things like that in DR, you can't go kill 40, or 400, or 400000 goblins and get a rare drop (aside from maybe a scroll). You just gather your loot and spend it on things. Or attend a 'pay me real money' event. Or get an alteration. Cosmetic things lose a lot of flair in DR since you can have it look like whatever you want, vs. in a typical MMO where you have to get whatever graphics are coded in.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
>Having a Tier 2 weapon reach Tier 7 due to the stacking of multiple fluff effects DOES NOT HAPPEN. That is the point I was making.
No one said it does. Hyperbole. How does that work?
Also, you grossly and quickly glossed over a very important part of your statement, which was 'once stats taper off'.
The difference between a tier 5 and tier 6 weapon isn't earthshattering, but it's not insignificant either. So if we use a reasonable example of a tier 6 axe being either 'real' tier 6, or tier 5+ a script, or tier 4 + a script, the difference becomes fairly substantial.
Also, it sounds like the game you're talking about (hundreds of hours of grinding) is...a lot different from DR. DR you can't really 'grind' anything. It's all out there. There aren't drop rates and instances and things like that in DR, you can't go kill 40, or 400, or 400000 goblins and get a rare drop (aside from maybe a scroll). You just gather your loot and spend it on things. Or attend a 'pay me real money' event. Or get an alteration. Cosmetic things lose a lot of flair in DR since you can have it look like whatever you want, vs. in a typical MMO where you have to get whatever graphics are coded in.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
>>No one said it does. Hyperbole.
>>No reallistic person who cares about tiering is going to go 'oh look, it's a tier 2 weapons with +5 crap scripts on it! I totally need to pay as much for it as I would for a tier 7 weapon!'.
I realize you were exaggerating, but others in this discussion and who may later read it might not understand that. My time is valuable and I don't like losing hours each week answering emails going, "So and so said this is possible but I wanted to know from you if it was and why because that sounds like bad game design."
>>DR you can't really 'grind' anything
I'd argue the folks in Prime spending 30,000 platinum on a Katana, Tekkan, Mirror Axe or whatever have spent their fair share of time grinding, no? There are also plenty of people who ran quests dozens of times to get the scrip necessary to buy that cool thing they wanted.
>>Cosmetic things lose a lot of flair in DR since you can have it look like whatever you want,
I find this a confusing statement coming from you. We (and many other players) have had numerous discussions about introducing X, Y or Z type of weapon or armor. Just recently I said, well yes we have that as a mace. But you thought a different noun might be more interesting and/or fit your character image better, even if the stats were comparable.
There have also been discussions recently about "fantastic" looking armor that protects better than it realistically should. Nouns and verbs and other effects are not available from alterations which is why we consider them to be a +1 tier to the item for the purposes of -Where can they be made available and how much do they cost?
Tiering and item balance are two very important concepts to me. But fluff enhancements will count as a tier, and you can choose to buy/obtain those items - or not. Perhaps once enchanting is out and stable I can come up with something better. I just cannot devote myself to it right now, and changing the existing practice will cause untold problems. You're better off with the way it is today.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>No reallistic person who cares about tiering is going to go 'oh look, it's a tier 2 weapons with +5 crap scripts on it! I totally need to pay as much for it as I would for a tier 7 weapon!'.
I realize you were exaggerating, but others in this discussion and who may later read it might not understand that. My time is valuable and I don't like losing hours each week answering emails going, "So and so said this is possible but I wanted to know from you if it was and why because that sounds like bad game design."
>>DR you can't really 'grind' anything
I'd argue the folks in Prime spending 30,000 platinum on a Katana, Tekkan, Mirror Axe or whatever have spent their fair share of time grinding, no? There are also plenty of people who ran quests dozens of times to get the scrip necessary to buy that cool thing they wanted.
>>Cosmetic things lose a lot of flair in DR since you can have it look like whatever you want,
I find this a confusing statement coming from you. We (and many other players) have had numerous discussions about introducing X, Y or Z type of weapon or armor. Just recently I said, well yes we have that as a mace. But you thought a different noun might be more interesting and/or fit your character image better, even if the stats were comparable.
There have also been discussions recently about "fantastic" looking armor that protects better than it realistically should. Nouns and verbs and other effects are not available from alterations which is why we consider them to be a +1 tier to the item for the purposes of -Where can they be made available and how much do they cost?
Tiering and item balance are two very important concepts to me. But fluff enhancements will count as a tier, and you can choose to buy/obtain those items - or not. Perhaps once enchanting is out and stable I can come up with something better. I just cannot devote myself to it right now, and changing the existing practice will cause untold problems. You're better off with the way it is today.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>It would be interesting to submit a survey to the game population to see what all they look for in gear. I honestly don't know what people prefer most regarding damage output, special properties, and cool fluffiness.
I agree - different strokes for different folks.
For me, (and I think adding to the tier formula that people have touched upon), a weapon with lower weight - sometimes Much lower weight - with less or almost equivalent damage stats and often better balance and suitability, would be much more appealing than something that just just super loaded on stats (i.e. some of the quest weapons - they are half the weight but relatively equal to the kertig equivalent with better b/s some of the time). Doesn't really matter how fancy things are to me, but if the stats are relatively equal it definitely adds to the appeal. I have fancy weapons I just don't use because they aren't practical to use, but I still have them.
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I agree - different strokes for different folks.
For me, (and I think adding to the tier formula that people have touched upon), a weapon with lower weight - sometimes Much lower weight - with less or almost equivalent damage stats and often better balance and suitability, would be much more appealing than something that just just super loaded on stats (i.e. some of the quest weapons - they are half the weight but relatively equal to the kertig equivalent with better b/s some of the time). Doesn't really matter how fancy things are to me, but if the stats are relatively equal it definitely adds to the appeal. I have fancy weapons I just don't use because they aren't practical to use, but I still have them.
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
