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This post is me ranting about things in The Two Towers, so it contains spoilers, and me ranting. And while you might get a different impression from reading my comments, I really DID enjoy the movie. It's just that some of this stuff didn't really mesh right with the way I was thinking.
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Number one rant: Gimli. There were a couple mentions to the fact that he was a little slower than Aragorn and Legolas, and that he didn't want to ride a horse, but where does it say that he's the setup man for all the punchlines? Plus, the scene on the bridge was what he was doing all along. They fail to mention in the end that he beat Legolas' kill count by one by the time the battle is over. And why was he trying on mail from the Helm's Deep armory? He had his own. He was wearing it the whole time.
Changes: The way Eomer got tossed out of Rohan in the first 20 minutes of the movie really messed with me. It mentioned in the book numerous times that he and Aragorn were fighting side by side on the walls during the battle. And I don't have a book right with me, but weren't there closer to 3,000 men on the wall than 300? Also, what was Arwen doing in this movie? Why does Aragorn get thrown off a cliff (although "You're late" is pretty classic, even if it's said by an elf)?
Fangorn: This is what I'm most disappointed about. I wanted to meet Quickbeam, and to get to hear more than 2 seconds of the Ent's war chant. Plus, probably my favorite sub-plot of the story is seeing Merry and Pippin go from being captives to being knights in their own right, which totally got ignored. It seemed like just when I said to myself "Hey, what's going on in Fangorn?" they went back to the forest, but only for about 30 seconds. Also, did anyone else seem to think that Fangorn came off as WAY too evil to you? He opened his eyes, and he was immediately angry. Didn't the ents spend 3 days riling themselves up to get angry? And no Huorns. I'm just sad that more time wasn't spent on Fangorn Forest.
Faramir: There was just something about Faramir that didn't come off right. Maybe he was just too hostile.
Eowen: I haven't seen anyone else mention this but, she just seemed way too much a lady. I didn't picture her wearing a dress at all until her recovery in Minas Tirith in the third book, but she wore one in just about every scene.
Saruman and Sauron: It becomes clear that Saruman is really Sauron's pawn, but for most of the book, Saruman thinks he can actually challenge Sauron for middle earth, not just ride shotgun for him. Also, (and I'm REALLY nit-picking now, but the movie seemed to pride itself on small details) wasn't Saruman's device a white (or was it red) S, and Sauron's the red eye? Is the white hand mentioned at all?
The ending: I'm afraid that with the ending of the second book delayed until the third movie, that things like most of the fellowship reuniting at Orthanc will get lost, or not emphasized as much.
</end spoilerz and monster geekery>
Ok, that's it. And I know that some of these rants got carried way over the deep end and got way to critical, but someone needed to be the person to point out every single discrepancy in the movie, and that someone's me (and boy do I despise the someone that does that). But I know people feel the way I do on a bunch of this stuff. Or at least I hope I do. ...right?
~Katrenos
the two towers DelRey book version...uh, the one sold in a four-pack and had purty blue for 1st book, purty red for 2nd book, purty purple for 3rd book and dark green for the hobbit.
chapter 2: the riders of rohan, page 47.
"....Great Orcs, who also bore the White Hand of Isengard:..."
That's all I could remember reading, plus, I only read up to page... *flips pages* 189... ok, so I wasn't quite halfway through the book.. :P
since Isengard = Saruman's place, then i guess it is Saruman's hand...hehe... I dunno. I remember thinking Isengard was a pretty word.
Clueless Pam who can't remember a thing she read from part 1: the fellowship of the ring anymore.
chapter 2: the riders of rohan, page 47.
"....Great Orcs, who also bore the White Hand of Isengard:..."
That's all I could remember reading, plus, I only read up to page... *flips pages* 189... ok, so I wasn't quite halfway through the book.. :P
since Isengard = Saruman's place, then i guess it is Saruman's hand...hehe... I dunno. I remember thinking Isengard was a pretty word.
Clueless Pam who can't remember a thing she read from part 1: the fellowship of the ring anymore.
>>Number one rant: Gimli. <<<
I agree that they went a bit too far with the Gimli jokes, although he often was a mild comedy relief in the book as well. The armor thing I didn't get, either.
>>>Changes: The way Eomer got tossed out of Rohan in the first 20 minutes of the movie really messed with me. It mentioned in the book numerous times that he and Aragorn were fighting side by side on the walls during the battle.<<<<
No, in the book, Gandalf was away because he was riding Shadowfax as fast as possible to find Eomer and his riders, who had been outlawed by Theoden. His group was roaming the Riddermark, killing orcs. He does indeed show up at the end of the battle at Helm's Deep with Gandalf and save the day, but he was never fighting from its walls.
>>>Plus, probably my favorite sub-plot of the story is seeing Merry and Pippin go from being captives to being knights in their own right, which totally got ignored.<<<
As in the books, Pippin and Merry do not get knighted until AFTER the Fangorn forest/Isengard instances. They get brought into the 'party' again after Gandalf and co. go to the ruin of the tower and confront Saruman. (If you recall, that's when Grima throws the Palantir at Gandalf... which leads to certain hobbits ending up in the presence of certain kings, and the knightings you are thinking of.)
>>>Faramir: There was just something about Faramir that didn't come off right. Maybe he was just too hostile.<<<
This was a major departure from the book. Faramir let them go without taking them back to Osgiliath in the book, because unlike his brother, Faramir has the old Dunadan ability to read people's hearts (and has the 'right stuff' therefore to end up the Prince of Ithilien at the end.) This ability was removed in the movie, completely neutering Faramir's 'point' in the books.
>>>Eowen: I haven't seen anyone else mention this but, she just seemed way too much a lady. I didn't picture her wearing a dress at all until her recovery in Minas Tirith in the third book, but she wore one in just about every scene.<<<
In the books, Eowyn does not dress like a man (i.e. stop wearing dresses) until she pretends to be a man named Dernhelm, and rides out with an army. She is very much a lady until she decides to do this - which does not happen until she thinks that Aragorn has gone to his death in the Paths of the Dead. At this point, she despairs and seeks a heroic death. She doesn't live like this all the time.
>>>Also, (and I'm REALLY nit-picking now, but the movie seemed to pride itself on small details) wasn't Saruman's device a white (or was it red) S, and Sauron's the red eye? Is the white hand mentioned at all?<<<
It was indeed the white hand of Isengard in the book.
>>The ending: I'm afraid that with the ending of the second book delayed until the third movie, that things like most of the fellowship reuniting at Orthanc will get lost, or not emphasized as much.<<<
I'm pretty sure they will have that near the beginning of the movie. No reason not to.
>>>Ok, that's it. And I know that some of these rants got carried way over the deep end and got way to critical, but someone needed to be the person to point out every single discrepancy in the movie, and that someone's me (and boy do I despise the someone that does that). But I know people feel the way I do on a bunch of this stuff. Or at least I hope I do. ...right?<<<
There were a lot of deviations from the books in this movie, more than in the Fellowship... but I get the impression you haven't read the series recently. I don't mean that as a slam, it's a huge story, and if you don't read it constantly a lot of things get warped over time. My brother had forgotten so much that I could barely have a conversation with him about the first movie, and he's usually some sort of savant about memorizing stories and histories.
---Brett
I agree that they went a bit too far with the Gimli jokes, although he often was a mild comedy relief in the book as well. The armor thing I didn't get, either.
>>>Changes: The way Eomer got tossed out of Rohan in the first 20 minutes of the movie really messed with me. It mentioned in the book numerous times that he and Aragorn were fighting side by side on the walls during the battle.<<<<
No, in the book, Gandalf was away because he was riding Shadowfax as fast as possible to find Eomer and his riders, who had been outlawed by Theoden. His group was roaming the Riddermark, killing orcs. He does indeed show up at the end of the battle at Helm's Deep with Gandalf and save the day, but he was never fighting from its walls.
>>>Plus, probably my favorite sub-plot of the story is seeing Merry and Pippin go from being captives to being knights in their own right, which totally got ignored.<<<
As in the books, Pippin and Merry do not get knighted until AFTER the Fangorn forest/Isengard instances. They get brought into the 'party' again after Gandalf and co. go to the ruin of the tower and confront Saruman. (If you recall, that's when Grima throws the Palantir at Gandalf... which leads to certain hobbits ending up in the presence of certain kings, and the knightings you are thinking of.)
>>>Faramir: There was just something about Faramir that didn't come off right. Maybe he was just too hostile.<<<
This was a major departure from the book. Faramir let them go without taking them back to Osgiliath in the book, because unlike his brother, Faramir has the old Dunadan ability to read people's hearts (and has the 'right stuff' therefore to end up the Prince of Ithilien at the end.) This ability was removed in the movie, completely neutering Faramir's 'point' in the books.
>>>Eowen: I haven't seen anyone else mention this but, she just seemed way too much a lady. I didn't picture her wearing a dress at all until her recovery in Minas Tirith in the third book, but she wore one in just about every scene.<<<
In the books, Eowyn does not dress like a man (i.e. stop wearing dresses) until she pretends to be a man named Dernhelm, and rides out with an army. She is very much a lady until she decides to do this - which does not happen until she thinks that Aragorn has gone to his death in the Paths of the Dead. At this point, she despairs and seeks a heroic death. She doesn't live like this all the time.
>>>Also, (and I'm REALLY nit-picking now, but the movie seemed to pride itself on small details) wasn't Saruman's device a white (or was it red) S, and Sauron's the red eye? Is the white hand mentioned at all?<<<
It was indeed the white hand of Isengard in the book.
>>The ending: I'm afraid that with the ending of the second book delayed until the third movie, that things like most of the fellowship reuniting at Orthanc will get lost, or not emphasized as much.<<<
I'm pretty sure they will have that near the beginning of the movie. No reason not to.
>>>Ok, that's it. And I know that some of these rants got carried way over the deep end and got way to critical, but someone needed to be the person to point out every single discrepancy in the movie, and that someone's me (and boy do I despise the someone that does that). But I know people feel the way I do on a bunch of this stuff. Or at least I hope I do. ...right?<<<
There were a lot of deviations from the books in this movie, more than in the Fellowship... but I get the impression you haven't read the series recently. I don't mean that as a slam, it's a huge story, and if you don't read it constantly a lot of things get warped over time. My brother had forgotten so much that I could barely have a conversation with him about the first movie, and he's usually some sort of savant about memorizing stories and histories.
---Brett
*Well... maybe someday someone will make a 22 hour movie which cost 6 billion dollars to make that will appease maybe half of the purists and laugh at the general public...
Until then I guess we'll have to settle for just about the greatest set of movies ever made. Poor us. *
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! This made me laugh so far, and here's why. First, anyone who read the books before the movies were made are going to have problems with things that are changed/left out/ignored completely.
And, as for making a 22 hour movie...well they could have always made 6 movies, 3 hours long each...since there are really 6 books, two in each Fellowship, two towers, etc. That brings us up to 18 hours, 18 hours in which they can do a whole lot better in including everything that makes the books so great...as for being the greatest set of movies ever made (LOL) not hardly.
Until then I guess we'll have to settle for just about the greatest set of movies ever made. Poor us. *
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! This made me laugh so far, and here's why. First, anyone who read the books before the movies were made are going to have problems with things that are changed/left out/ignored completely.
And, as for making a 22 hour movie...well they could have always made 6 movies, 3 hours long each...since there are really 6 books, two in each Fellowship, two towers, etc. That brings us up to 18 hours, 18 hours in which they can do a whole lot better in including everything that makes the books so great...as for being the greatest set of movies ever made (LOL) not hardly.
I would honestly be pissed if they put something like Tom Bombadil in the movies. The scenes from the Downs were cool, but Bombadil was just a flowery poof, and that woulda completely ruined a movie that's meant to have such a dark element to it.
Farmer Maggot also wouldn't have had much place in the movies, since the book had to explain a lot of who he was that you wuldn't be easily able to do on screen. Wouldn't be worth the time it'd take.
Ain't seen Two Towers yet, but for those saying the books should be followed....Nah. Not at all.
Gotta keep in mind he half wrote it as a childrens' story fer his own kids. Some of it would just come out as being silly.
One thing that really did screw with me about the movie was how young thye chose to make Frodo. While obviously Bilbo is the old man, and Frodo is younger, it would seem that since Bilbo was "eleventy one" when he left, they shoulda stuck with Frodo being portrayed as a bit older. Seemed kinda odd him having the other three hobbits pretty much being his servants, while he looks ta be the same age as them.
Farmer Maggot also wouldn't have had much place in the movies, since the book had to explain a lot of who he was that you wuldn't be easily able to do on screen. Wouldn't be worth the time it'd take.
Ain't seen Two Towers yet, but for those saying the books should be followed....Nah. Not at all.
Gotta keep in mind he half wrote it as a childrens' story fer his own kids. Some of it would just come out as being silly.
One thing that really did screw with me about the movie was how young thye chose to make Frodo. While obviously Bilbo is the old man, and Frodo is younger, it would seem that since Bilbo was "eleventy one" when he left, they shoulda stuck with Frodo being portrayed as a bit older. Seemed kinda odd him having the other three hobbits pretty much being his servants, while he looks ta be the same age as them.
>>Although in doing so we get the impression Treebeard is the leader of the Ents, as opposed to merely the youngest and most open to conversing "quick" so as to speak with the hobbits.
Re-read that bit. Treebeard is one of the older and slower Ents, though he has a temper. He does seem to understand the speed other races operate at, unlike most other ents.
I believe it was him that led the Entmoot. Quickbeam might be the one yer thinking of being the fast talker...He was the one sent to keep the hobbits company while the rest sat fer a few days chatting.
Re-read that bit. Treebeard is one of the older and slower Ents, though he has a temper. He does seem to understand the speed other races operate at, unlike most other ents.
I believe it was him that led the Entmoot. Quickbeam might be the one yer thinking of being the fast talker...He was the one sent to keep the hobbits company while the rest sat fer a few days chatting.
G'day,
>This really has been driving me crazy too....makes me wish all my books were not in storage. ::flail:: Aragorn is not even AT Helm's Deep. He leaves them in the throne city of Rohan, once Theodon reassumes his leadership. Right? Doesn't he leave there through the Halls of the Dead?? I mean, he's NOT at Helm's Deep. He hears about Helm's Deep from Legolas and Gimli later on. I will admit, it's been about 3 years since my last read through of the books. But I've read them all many times, and I'm fairly sure my memory is accurate. So how in the blasted bloody hell is he going to show up to save Gondor with the army in the black ships, when he NEVER FREAKING LEFT TO GO AND GET THEM? Anyway, someone with a copy of TTT please feel free to pull it out and let me know if I'm making some sort of mistake. This seems to me to be a MAJOR storyline change.
Aragorn doesn't take to the paths of the dead until after the battle of Helm's Deep, which he plays a major part in. The thing that gets me about how the battle was handled in the film is that there are Elves there, besides Legolas. Unless the Elves that showed up are sort of being merged with the Grey Company that shows up in Return of the King, which I suppose is possible.
With regards to Treebeard, he is the eldest of the Ents. In the book Gandalf says, "... he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth." Course, I don't quite understand some of how he was portrayed in the movie, since he is supposed to be the guardian/shepherd of the trees, but was apparently clueless about the slaughter of the trees by Sauruman and the orcs of Isengard. Though having Merry and Pippin take him past Isengard to see the devesatation does give them a more direct roll in getting the Ents to go to war.
Its definitely going to be interesting to see how Return of the King is handled. Quite likely the reasoning for a bunch of the changes in Two Towers will be made clear with the final film.
Still need to see this one a couple more times to "get over" comparing it so stringently with the books <g>.
Regards,
Godrich de'Finchal
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
>This really has been driving me crazy too....makes me wish all my books were not in storage. ::flail:: Aragorn is not even AT Helm's Deep. He leaves them in the throne city of Rohan, once Theodon reassumes his leadership. Right? Doesn't he leave there through the Halls of the Dead?? I mean, he's NOT at Helm's Deep. He hears about Helm's Deep from Legolas and Gimli later on. I will admit, it's been about 3 years since my last read through of the books. But I've read them all many times, and I'm fairly sure my memory is accurate. So how in the blasted bloody hell is he going to show up to save Gondor with the army in the black ships, when he NEVER FREAKING LEFT TO GO AND GET THEM? Anyway, someone with a copy of TTT please feel free to pull it out and let me know if I'm making some sort of mistake. This seems to me to be a MAJOR storyline change.
Aragorn doesn't take to the paths of the dead until after the battle of Helm's Deep, which he plays a major part in. The thing that gets me about how the battle was handled in the film is that there are Elves there, besides Legolas. Unless the Elves that showed up are sort of being merged with the Grey Company that shows up in Return of the King, which I suppose is possible.
With regards to Treebeard, he is the eldest of the Ents. In the book Gandalf says, "... he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth." Course, I don't quite understand some of how he was portrayed in the movie, since he is supposed to be the guardian/shepherd of the trees, but was apparently clueless about the slaughter of the trees by Sauruman and the orcs of Isengard. Though having Merry and Pippin take him past Isengard to see the devesatation does give them a more direct roll in getting the Ents to go to war.
Its definitely going to be interesting to see how Return of the King is handled. Quite likely the reasoning for a bunch of the changes in Two Towers will be made clear with the final film.
Still need to see this one a couple more times to "get over" comparing it so stringently with the books <g>.
Regards,
Godrich de'Finchal
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
Sam isn't the hero, atleast he wasn't intended to be. Aragorn is the "classical hero" of the story. Tolkien wrote as such in his letters. Sam is simply a cool guy. You have to remeber that Tolkien has a masters knowledge of Mythology and uses it to create what is academically considered the most complete myth in any canon. We have an inordinate amount of background information on the Lord of the Rings (Encyclopedia of Middle Earth anyone?) and his letters in which he frequently outlines what he is doing.
And to those complaining wait for the fleshed out extended 4 hour cut I'm sure it'll give us more just as the extended FOTR did.
Azkial
Random LOTR Fact: In the first drafts Aragon was not Strider but Trotter
And to those complaining wait for the fleshed out extended 4 hour cut I'm sure it'll give us more just as the extended FOTR did.
Azkial
Random LOTR Fact: In the first drafts Aragon was not Strider but Trotter
>>but I get the impression you haven't read the series recently.
True, and I don't take it as a slam. I'm sure things have gotten fuzzed over time.
>>He does indeed show up at the end of the battle at Helm's Deep with Gandalf and save the day, but he was never fighting from its walls.
I know I'm right about this. Eomer was taken prisoner at Edoras, but was freed when the spell on Theoden was broken. He was the one that handed Theoden his sword. And he was most definitely on the wall with Aragorn when the battle started. I even broke out my book (oh, God)... it's Ballantine's purple paperback copy:
p. 163 "Eomer and Aragorn stood on the wall together... 'Come!' said Aragorn. 'This is the hour when we draw swords together!"
It was Erkenbrand that brough reinforcements with Gandalf.
>>Merry and Pippin.
I know they don't do anything until after Isengard and the palantir, but it just seems like they got lost and forgotten and they won't be as big of a presence for the rest of the movie.
>In the books, Eowyn does not dress like a man.
You're right. :)
>>It was indeed the white hand of Isengard in the book.
Well, it seems I'm wrong about this one, too. But I remember very clearly people having a conversation where they try to decide what device belongs to orcs from where:
"No, Sauron would never put an S on his shields, that must be Saruman" or something to that effect. But I can't find it. Someone please tell me I'm not making it up?
~Steve
True, and I don't take it as a slam. I'm sure things have gotten fuzzed over time.
>>He does indeed show up at the end of the battle at Helm's Deep with Gandalf and save the day, but he was never fighting from its walls.
I know I'm right about this. Eomer was taken prisoner at Edoras, but was freed when the spell on Theoden was broken. He was the one that handed Theoden his sword. And he was most definitely on the wall with Aragorn when the battle started. I even broke out my book (oh, God)... it's Ballantine's purple paperback copy:
p. 163 "Eomer and Aragorn stood on the wall together... 'Come!' said Aragorn. 'This is the hour when we draw swords together!"
It was Erkenbrand that brough reinforcements with Gandalf.
>>Merry and Pippin.
I know they don't do anything until after Isengard and the palantir, but it just seems like they got lost and forgotten and they won't be as big of a presence for the rest of the movie.
>In the books, Eowyn does not dress like a man.
You're right. :)
>>It was indeed the white hand of Isengard in the book.
Well, it seems I'm wrong about this one, too. But I remember very clearly people having a conversation where they try to decide what device belongs to orcs from where:
"No, Sauron would never put an S on his shields, that must be Saruman" or something to that effect. But I can't find it. Someone please tell me I'm not making it up?
~Steve
Been a while since I read the books, but didn't the battle at Helm's Deep end with the riding out, arrival of the horsemen and the orcs running into the forest that was brought out overnight by the ents, where no orcs survived because the trees would kill them?
Ecoles
"Embraced by Tenemlor"
Ecoles
"Embraced by Tenemlor"
>>>I know I'm right about this. Eomer was taken prisoner at Edoras, but was freed when the spell on Theoden was broken. He was the one that handed Theoden his sword. And he was most definitely on the wall with Aragorn when the battle started... ..It was Erkenbrand that brough reinforcements with Gandalf.<<<
Ya know, I don't have my books here :) I won't see them for another week or so, all my posts have been from memory, and I have no expectation that my memory is faultess. Maybe that's been an error I've built into my recollection. I'll reread it when I get to my other house.
---Brett
Ya know, I don't have my books here :) I won't see them for another week or so, all my posts have been from memory, and I have no expectation that my memory is faultess. Maybe that's been an error I've built into my recollection. I'll reread it when I get to my other house.
---Brett
>>>I know I'm right about this. Eomer was taken prisoner at Edoras, but was freed when the spell on Theoden was broken. He was the one that handed Theoden his sword. And he was most definitely on the wall with Aragorn when the battle started... ..It was Erkenbrand that brough reinforcements with Gandalf.<<<
Yup, yup. The Eomer scene is one of my favorites -- "Take this, dear king! It was ever at thy service!" (From memory, heh!). On the subject of Rohan and weapons, it bugged me that they all surrendered their weapons to Hama so quickly. Yes, it's an itty-bitty detail that really has little bearing on the movie as a whole... but there it is. Also, I don't think they've said enough about Aragorn's sword being Narsil reforged in the main movies. Unless you've seen the expanded DVD, you don't know the Elves repaired it for him. Bit of a big deal, I think.
Probably my biggest gripe (ask the people I saw it with; I ranted) was the way they did Faramir. Is it just me, or have they completely negated the _whole point_ of having him appear in the 2nd book/movie, to wit, proving that the blood of the Stewards DOES run true, just Boromir was a weak branch? What is this going to mean for the whole conflict about sending/favoring the wrong son in the next one, if they even leave it in?
I withhold comments on the Arwen thing until I've read the extra-series material, since that's where it comes from.
The Ents bugged me. First off, the visualization of Fangorn was much more evil than I pictured. I really got Pippin's description stuck in my head "...and he and the room just got older and shabbier together... and the Took was my great-great-great-grandfather, so that puts it back aways." Thought Fangorn should be less dark, more old and musty. And I don't understand why they refused to help, when in the books they KNEW the trees were being hurt, and the hobbits coming got them hot and hasty enough to DO something about it.
Gimli as comic-relief -- funny the first time. Funny the second time. Annoying the umpteenth time. Although I did like "Toss me. Don't tell the Elf." But the chain-mail scene, bah. "Nothing could be found to match Gimli's dwarven-forged corslet..." And WHAT, pray tell, happened to the glittering caverns? And the separation which leads to Legolas not minding that Gimli beat him by one, because he's so glad to see this dwarf that only a couple months ago was practically a mortal enemy??
Don't get the whole Aragon-in-river thing. Cute Arwen scene, but where in the book does that come from? And if they were going to use it anyway, given that Vigo practically drowned doing the scene, they might have showed more of Aragorn in the river.
Elves arriving, I also don't get. Cool, though. I can forgive.
Overall... As a movie: YES!! TOTALLY ROCKED!!
As a visual version of the book: Eh....
Personally, I think that if less "what the--?" stuff had been added, there would have been more room to put in small details that added to the atmosphere presented in the book.
~Cirissa
(Laura)
Yup, yup. The Eomer scene is one of my favorites -- "Take this, dear king! It was ever at thy service!" (From memory, heh!). On the subject of Rohan and weapons, it bugged me that they all surrendered their weapons to Hama so quickly. Yes, it's an itty-bitty detail that really has little bearing on the movie as a whole... but there it is. Also, I don't think they've said enough about Aragorn's sword being Narsil reforged in the main movies. Unless you've seen the expanded DVD, you don't know the Elves repaired it for him. Bit of a big deal, I think.
Probably my biggest gripe (ask the people I saw it with; I ranted) was the way they did Faramir. Is it just me, or have they completely negated the _whole point_ of having him appear in the 2nd book/movie, to wit, proving that the blood of the Stewards DOES run true, just Boromir was a weak branch? What is this going to mean for the whole conflict about sending/favoring the wrong son in the next one, if they even leave it in?
I withhold comments on the Arwen thing until I've read the extra-series material, since that's where it comes from.
The Ents bugged me. First off, the visualization of Fangorn was much more evil than I pictured. I really got Pippin's description stuck in my head "...and he and the room just got older and shabbier together... and the Took was my great-great-great-grandfather, so that puts it back aways." Thought Fangorn should be less dark, more old and musty. And I don't understand why they refused to help, when in the books they KNEW the trees were being hurt, and the hobbits coming got them hot and hasty enough to DO something about it.
Gimli as comic-relief -- funny the first time. Funny the second time. Annoying the umpteenth time. Although I did like "Toss me. Don't tell the Elf." But the chain-mail scene, bah. "Nothing could be found to match Gimli's dwarven-forged corslet..." And WHAT, pray tell, happened to the glittering caverns? And the separation which leads to Legolas not minding that Gimli beat him by one, because he's so glad to see this dwarf that only a couple months ago was practically a mortal enemy??
Don't get the whole Aragon-in-river thing. Cute Arwen scene, but where in the book does that come from? And if they were going to use it anyway, given that Vigo practically drowned doing the scene, they might have showed more of Aragorn in the river.
Elves arriving, I also don't get. Cool, though. I can forgive.
Overall... As a movie: YES!! TOTALLY ROCKED!!
As a visual version of the book: Eh....
Personally, I think that if less "what the--?" stuff had been added, there would have been more room to put in small details that added to the atmosphere presented in the book.
~Cirissa
(Laura)
hehe. Something else that bothered me from the first movie? and still does?
Okay.. its a very small point of order that two very special daggers(swords in the hands of hobbits) are needed to kill off two of the ring wraiths in Return of the King. Yet, these swords are never given to merry and pippin by Tom whatever his name after the wraith tomb in the Fellowship. (forgive any misspellings)
Now to me.. this seems a slightly critical part, because from what I remember of the books, those daggers being made of the High Men specifically to fight the dark are what allows merry and pippin to each kill a ring wraith and "save the day" later on. I just wonder how they are going to deal with that in movie 3.
Sulrin
disclaimer: It's been a while since I read the books, so if this is confuddled, forgive me :)
Okay.. its a very small point of order that two very special daggers(swords in the hands of hobbits) are needed to kill off two of the ring wraiths in Return of the King. Yet, these swords are never given to merry and pippin by Tom whatever his name after the wraith tomb in the Fellowship. (forgive any misspellings)
Now to me.. this seems a slightly critical part, because from what I remember of the books, those daggers being made of the High Men specifically to fight the dark are what allows merry and pippin to each kill a ring wraith and "save the day" later on. I just wonder how they are going to deal with that in movie 3.
Sulrin
disclaimer: It's been a while since I read the books, so if this is confuddled, forgive me :)
When I go in to see a movie that's based on a book, no matter what story it is. I always go in with a very open mind understanding that there's no way the story can be as detailed and wonderous as the novel. It's just not possible.
When I watch the Lord of the Rings movies though, despite that the details of the story line may be flawed in areas (as can be expected)... the movie still captures me and sweeps me away to another world that catches my imagination in a manner to where you don't doubt that what's happening could be real. As one producer once said, the task is to make things and places that don't exist, look so real that while watching the movie the person never wonders whether it's fake or not. With that said, I think the producers did a great job on Lord of the Rings. The creatures look great. The landscape, scenery, buildings... all look fantastic. The characters look great. And the fight scenes are awesome.
The battle scene at Helm's Deep was the most incredible battle that I've ever seen in a movie. There's other movies that has great war scenes in it, like Braveheart or the first part of Saving Private Ryan. But in those movies the battle scene is maybe 2 to 4 minutes of the entire movie. In the Two Towers, the battle for Helm's Deep was long and sustained. With tons of action ... in my mind there's been none better on film. Definitely not in a fantasy setting.
Dave
When I watch the Lord of the Rings movies though, despite that the details of the story line may be flawed in areas (as can be expected)... the movie still captures me and sweeps me away to another world that catches my imagination in a manner to where you don't doubt that what's happening could be real. As one producer once said, the task is to make things and places that don't exist, look so real that while watching the movie the person never wonders whether it's fake or not. With that said, I think the producers did a great job on Lord of the Rings. The creatures look great. The landscape, scenery, buildings... all look fantastic. The characters look great. And the fight scenes are awesome.
The battle scene at Helm's Deep was the most incredible battle that I've ever seen in a movie. There's other movies that has great war scenes in it, like Braveheart or the first part of Saving Private Ryan. But in those movies the battle scene is maybe 2 to 4 minutes of the entire movie. In the Two Towers, the battle for Helm's Deep was long and sustained. With tons of action ... in my mind there's been none better on film. Definitely not in a fantasy setting.
Dave
>>Now to me.. this seems a slightly critical part, because from what I remember of the books, those daggers being made of the High Men specifically to fight the dark are what allows merry and pippin to each kill a ring wraith and "save the day" later on. I just wonder how they are going to deal with that in movie 3.<<
The bladers are blades built by the men of Westernesse that drove out the witch king of Agmar who would become to head of the Nazgul. That blade was the only blade that could have weakened him so so that Eowyn could destroy him. This, of course, surprises the King of the Nazgul because he think there are only men on the field and he will not die at the hands of man. But a women is a different story.
Azkial
Knower of this from Westernesse
The bladers are blades built by the men of Westernesse that drove out the witch king of Agmar who would become to head of the Nazgul. That blade was the only blade that could have weakened him so so that Eowyn could destroy him. This, of course, surprises the King of the Nazgul because he think there are only men on the field and he will not die at the hands of man. But a women is a different story.
Azkial
Knower of this from Westernesse
<<I always go in with a very open mind understanding that there's no way the story can be as detailed and wonderous as the novel. It's just not possible.>>
This is what makes text games better than graphical games. :)
Solomon
Vote for DragonRealms as the #1 MUD every day!
http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=drealms
This is what makes text games better than graphical games. :)
Solomon
Vote for DragonRealms as the #1 MUD every day!
http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=drealms
For the record... Aragon does STILL not have his sword... we just had a big argument over if it was in fact reforged in the extended edition or not (seeing as in the books he shows it reforged at the Council of Elrond) and if you watch the hilt of his blade is NOT Narsil, which has a very distinct hilt. When the elves showed up in the Two Towers I half expected them to have it... but no. My current guess is Arwen will show up in Return with it as part of his acceptance of being King.
-Mozzik
PS Random fact #1 after hear people complain (myself included) of Boromir's horn showing up randomly right before it is used... that's not true. It is seen earlier in the movie and if you look when he first confronts Frodo it is there just well tucked away so the white (and clearly visible part) is hidden. Was forced to ceed the point.
Random fact #2 Among the many minor points me and my friends were arguing was how many little sucky goblin arrows Boromir took in the books... for some reason I though it was like 30, my friend at least a dozen... turns out it actually only every says "many"...
-Mozzik
PS Random fact #1 after hear people complain (myself included) of Boromir's horn showing up randomly right before it is used... that's not true. It is seen earlier in the movie and if you look when he first confronts Frodo it is there just well tucked away so the white (and clearly visible part) is hidden. Was forced to ceed the point.
Random fact #2 Among the many minor points me and my friends were arguing was how many little sucky goblin arrows Boromir took in the books... for some reason I though it was like 30, my friend at least a dozen... turns out it actually only every says "many"...
>Aragon does STILL not have his sword... we just had a big argument over if it was in fact reforged in the extended edition or not (seeing as in the books he shows it reforged at the Council of Elrond) and if you watch the hilt of his blade is NOT Narsil, which has a very distinct hilt.
Bah, now I have to go watch that again! Grrr.... Ah well, there are worse ways to spend... how long is the extended edition, anyway? 3? 3:15?
As for the hobbits' swords... I wonder if the ones Aragorn so casually hands them at Weathertop (fancy name forgotten) are supposedly the swords made by the Westernesse men. They do show the three hunters finding the sheath for one of the blades at Boromir's death scene... and according to the book, the orcs "would not dare carry it with them, knowing it to be the work of the Men of Westernesse, and dedicated to the downfall of Mordor" or something like that, sorry, all quotes from memory. :-) If that's supposed to be the case, I wish they'd made a bigger fuss over it. Wasn't even explained where Aragorn got the swords; just -poof- here's some weapons, and why didn't I give 'em to you sooner? Oh, well, y'know... plot flow...
~Cirissa
Bah, now I have to go watch that again! Grrr.... Ah well, there are worse ways to spend... how long is the extended edition, anyway? 3? 3:15?
As for the hobbits' swords... I wonder if the ones Aragorn so casually hands them at Weathertop (fancy name forgotten) are supposedly the swords made by the Westernesse men. They do show the three hunters finding the sheath for one of the blades at Boromir's death scene... and according to the book, the orcs "would not dare carry it with them, knowing it to be the work of the Men of Westernesse, and dedicated to the downfall of Mordor" or something like that, sorry, all quotes from memory. :-) If that's supposed to be the case, I wish they'd made a bigger fuss over it. Wasn't even explained where Aragorn got the swords; just -poof- here's some weapons, and why didn't I give 'em to you sooner? Oh, well, y'know... plot flow...
~Cirissa
>>The battle scene at Helm's Deep was the most incredible battle that I've ever seen in a movie. There's other movies that has great war scenes in it, like Braveheart or the first part of Saving Private Ryan. But in those movies the battle scene is maybe 2 to 4 minutes of the entire movie. In the Two Towers, the battle for Helm's Deep was long and sustained. With tons of action ... in my mind there's been none better on film. Definitely not in a fantasy setting.<<
Two Towers wins out over everything, but the actual battle scene in Pearl Harbor comes in a close second. Was about 30 minutes if I remember right, even if the rest of the 3 hour movie really sucked bad.
Wish it woulda lasted longer, though. Can't wait for the extended version.
Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken.
Tam
Two Towers wins out over everything, but the actual battle scene in Pearl Harbor comes in a close second. Was about 30 minutes if I remember right, even if the rest of the 3 hour movie really sucked bad.
Wish it woulda lasted longer, though. Can't wait for the extended version.
Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken.
Tam
>>Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken.<<
In my imperfect recollection, I think the walls were breached... but by Saruman's magic... lightining or some other thing...
But I'm probably wrong on that point
- player of a few and disturbed by the voices in my head because of it :)
In my imperfect recollection, I think the walls were breached... but by Saruman's magic... lightining or some other thing...
But I'm probably wrong on that point
- player of a few and disturbed by the voices in my head because of it :)
>Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken
As I recall, they either blasted in with a tech/magic combo or used the old siege technique of tunnelling and then burning the tunnel supports to collapse a back way; that was part of the reason Eomer and Gimli got separated and wound up going through those glorious caverns. It wasn't a main structural wall blowing out on the front or main flank as the movie made it appear to be, though.
As I recall, they either blasted in with a tech/magic combo or used the old siege technique of tunnelling and then burning the tunnel supports to collapse a back way; that was part of the reason Eomer and Gimli got separated and wound up going through those glorious caverns. It wasn't a main structural wall blowing out on the front or main flank as the movie made it appear to be, though.
G'day,
>Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken
From the book:
"... Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. ...a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. ... "Devilry or Sauruman!" cried Aragorn. "They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet.""
Godrich de'Finchal, who once again is up way to late
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
>Does anyone remember in the book if the wall was breached with explosives/fire? I can't remember either way. I know at one point they came in through the drain, but I don't remember the wall being actually broken
From the book:
"... Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. ...a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. ... "Devilry or Sauruman!" cried Aragorn. "They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet.""
Godrich de'Finchal, who once again is up way to late
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
>>I believe it was him that led the Entmoot. Quickbeam might be the one yer thinking of being the fast talker...He was the one sent to keep the hobbits company while the rest sat fer a few days chatting.
It was Quickbeam I was thinking of. We had a bit of a....bash after the movie. Heh. I must admit, I posted under the influence. I mixed up some other stuff too. Sheesh. Nothing like being an extremely literate person and making an arse of ones self by posting under the influence. I had two battles mixed up too in my post. lol
::goes on to read the rest of thread, assuming to find lots more posts correcting her::
::promises to quick posting while intoxicated::
~player of Cetacea
It was Quickbeam I was thinking of. We had a bit of a....bash after the movie. Heh. I must admit, I posted under the influence. I mixed up some other stuff too. Sheesh. Nothing like being an extremely literate person and making an arse of ones self by posting under the influence. I had two battles mixed up too in my post. lol
::goes on to read the rest of thread, assuming to find lots more posts correcting her::
::promises to quick posting while intoxicated::
~player of Cetacea
>>Sam isn't the hero, atleast he wasn't intended to be. Aragorn is the "classical hero" of the story. Tolkien wrote as such in his letters. Sam is simply a cool guy.
While Aragorn is the classical portrayal of the hero in the stories, i.e. warrior saving the day, gets the girl, leads the people to an age of peace, blah blah; I personally feel that Sam is the atypical hero.
It is he that ensures continuation of the quest to destroy the ring. Without Sam, Frodo would have been lost to madness long before it takes him. Without Sam, all of Aragorn's bravary and leadership would be for naught, because if Sauron acquired the ring, all would be lost.
Basically, Sam is the guy behind the scenes who REALLY gets things done. The ones who support, nourish, and yes, even carry the "heroes" of the world on their backs when it's called for. There are many of these unsung heroes in our real world and Sam is the greatest literary example of these people. He doesn't require glory or fame or riches. He just wants his friend to succeed and his world to be protected as it is. And he doggedly sticks by those he's loyal to.
Let's face it, we all need a Sam in our lives. :-)
~player of Cetacea...and major Sam fan.
p.s. Legolas is sure a hottie though. ::ducks::
While Aragorn is the classical portrayal of the hero in the stories, i.e. warrior saving the day, gets the girl, leads the people to an age of peace, blah blah; I personally feel that Sam is the atypical hero.
It is he that ensures continuation of the quest to destroy the ring. Without Sam, Frodo would have been lost to madness long before it takes him. Without Sam, all of Aragorn's bravary and leadership would be for naught, because if Sauron acquired the ring, all would be lost.
Basically, Sam is the guy behind the scenes who REALLY gets things done. The ones who support, nourish, and yes, even carry the "heroes" of the world on their backs when it's called for. There are many of these unsung heroes in our real world and Sam is the greatest literary example of these people. He doesn't require glory or fame or riches. He just wants his friend to succeed and his world to be protected as it is. And he doggedly sticks by those he's loyal to.
Let's face it, we all need a Sam in our lives. :-)
~player of Cetacea...and major Sam fan.
p.s. Legolas is sure a hottie though. ::ducks::
<<While Aragorn is the classical portrayal of the hero in the stories, i.e. warrior saving the day, gets the girl, leads the people to an age of peace, blah blah; I personally feel that Sam is the atypical hero>>
I dunno if I'd call Sam atypical, but he's certainly my favorite character in the books. Frodo's most ordinary companion becomes his most extraordinary, and yes, Frodo would have never completed his quest without the support of Samwise. And yet, without Frodo, Samwise would have always been content with being a gardener. They need each other.
It's an excellent motif and one of my favorites in literature. Is there ever any question in anyone's mind that Aaragon and his company of two exceptional warriors will fall? No, I don't think there is. You know he's going to win, just like you know Drizzt Do'Urden is always going to win.
But with Frodo and Sam, it doesn't seem so sure, and suspense is one of the best thing you can do with a story. This is why Hollywood goes so far with plot-line twists (I'd say too far.) nowadays; we're so secure in out heroes we need to be shaken up occasionally.
I dunno if I'd call Sam atypical, but he's certainly my favorite character in the books. Frodo's most ordinary companion becomes his most extraordinary, and yes, Frodo would have never completed his quest without the support of Samwise. And yet, without Frodo, Samwise would have always been content with being a gardener. They need each other.
It's an excellent motif and one of my favorites in literature. Is there ever any question in anyone's mind that Aaragon and his company of two exceptional warriors will fall? No, I don't think there is. You know he's going to win, just like you know Drizzt Do'Urden is always going to win.
But with Frodo and Sam, it doesn't seem so sure, and suspense is one of the best thing you can do with a story. This is why Hollywood goes so far with plot-line twists (I'd say too far.) nowadays; we're so secure in out heroes we need to be shaken up occasionally.
