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Praise to the Chinese for turning Europe around a bit. The practice of bathing regularly and the invention of the toothbrush must have done wonders for keeping folks in better social graces...
Oh, and that whole sewage down the street thing... must have been very oderiferous.
Sonjha Newcomb
Interestingly, bathing soap was a massive sales product in the Middle Ages. They made and bought enough bathing (not clothes-washing) soap that unless you believe they ate it, it pokes a hole in the concept that people bathed once a year whether they needed it or not ;)
Yep, sewage in the cities was a real problem (luckily, less than 10% of the Medieval population lived in cities) and there was no concept of purifying water to drink it (this is why they just figured water was bad to drink and stuck with weak wines instead). Bathing was probably not as frequent because it wasn't as convenient (but the proliferation of public bathing offended the church.)
People are always more complicated than folks give them credit for, and often find ways to get around problems in one way or another. It is true that today's health standard is generally much better in developed countries, but there probably wasn't that much difference in such issues between colonial Americans and the average Medieval person. The death rates were certainly comparable, although higher among the colonials if you don't use a Black Plague year as the medieval example.
---Brett
Yep, sewage in the cities was a real problem (luckily, less than 10% of the Medieval population lived in cities) and there was no concept of purifying water to drink it (this is why they just figured water was bad to drink and stuck with weak wines instead). Bathing was probably not as frequent because it wasn't as convenient (but the proliferation of public bathing offended the church.)
People are always more complicated than folks give them credit for, and often find ways to get around problems in one way or another. It is true that today's health standard is generally much better in developed countries, but there probably wasn't that much difference in such issues between colonial Americans and the average Medieval person. The death rates were certainly comparable, although higher among the colonials if you don't use a Black Plague year as the medieval example.
---Brett
G'day,
It is interesting that in the United States, regular bathing didn't become all that common until into the 20th century, if I'm remembering correctly. There was some program on the History Channel that talked about this, and pointed out that the hygenic benefits of regular bathing only really got promoted once companies that manufactured bathroom fixtures (tubs and what not) realized that was probably the best way to increase the sales of their products.
Regards,
Godrich de'Finchal
"And we will weep
To be so alone
We are lost!
We can never go home"
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
It is interesting that in the United States, regular bathing didn't become all that common until into the 20th century, if I'm remembering correctly. There was some program on the History Channel that talked about this, and pointed out that the hygenic benefits of regular bathing only really got promoted once companies that manufactured bathroom fixtures (tubs and what not) realized that was probably the best way to increase the sales of their products.
Regards,
Godrich de'Finchal
"And we will weep
To be so alone
We are lost!
We can never go home"
http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html
> pointed out that the hygenic benefits of regular bathing only really got promoted once companies that manufactured bathroom fixtures (tubs and what not) realized that was probably the best way to increase the sales of their products
Capitalism. Gotta love it.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
Capitalism. Gotta love it.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
Unlike the general society however, even in the Medieval times among the Jewish community both washing the hands before eating, washing ones eating utensils and pots, and regular bathing <i.e. use of the Mikvah> was promoted <things taken for granted in modern society> , albeit for religious reasons. Part of the reason the Christian church was anti-bathing, in fact; as researched in some of the questions the Inquisition asked the internee, after the explusion from Spain in 1492, being questioned were around these types of questions.
~stabbity,stabbity,stabbity~
~stabbity,stabbity,stabbity~
Bathing during the Middle Ages
Medieval society may have liked to bathe more than one might expect, however, this was not always an easy process. Medieval castle residents used wooden tubs with water heated from the fire in the great hall. In good weather, the tub might be placed out in the garden. Lords often employed a person whose sole responsibility was preparing baths for the family. This person would often travel with the family.
Hot baths were very popular and most towns, as late as the mid-1200s had public bathhouses. Wood fires heated the water, but this posed two problems. First, out of control fires could consume several blocks of buildings. And as the forests were depleted, firewood became expensive and the rising costs of heating the water forced most of the bathhouses to close. Some tried burning coal to heat water, but the fumes proved to be unhealthy.
By the mid-1300s, only the very wealthy could afford firewood for hot water in the winter. The rest of the population was forced to be dirty most of the time. Barrels were often used as baths, with entire families sharing the same water.
Woodcubb of Ilithi
You have crystal blue eyes. You are bald, with dark brown skin. You are clean shaven. You have a tattoo of a huge Taisidonian pearl nestled inside an opened oyster on your arm.
Medieval society may have liked to bathe more than one might expect, however, this was not always an easy process. Medieval castle residents used wooden tubs with water heated from the fire in the great hall. In good weather, the tub might be placed out in the garden. Lords often employed a person whose sole responsibility was preparing baths for the family. This person would often travel with the family.
Hot baths were very popular and most towns, as late as the mid-1200s had public bathhouses. Wood fires heated the water, but this posed two problems. First, out of control fires could consume several blocks of buildings. And as the forests were depleted, firewood became expensive and the rising costs of heating the water forced most of the bathhouses to close. Some tried burning coal to heat water, but the fumes proved to be unhealthy.
By the mid-1300s, only the very wealthy could afford firewood for hot water in the winter. The rest of the population was forced to be dirty most of the time. Barrels were often used as baths, with entire families sharing the same water.
Woodcubb of Ilithi
You have crystal blue eyes. You are bald, with dark brown skin. You are clean shaven. You have a tattoo of a huge Taisidonian pearl nestled inside an opened oyster on your arm.
Medieval-life.net is a VERY informative site. http://www.medieval-life.net
Also enlightening is this bit:
A common myth is that medieval people had poor hygiene. There is no evidence, however, to support this. While it is true that they did not bathe daily, as most Americans do nowadays, it's not true that they never bathed. They cared for their hair, and men trimmed their beards. They often washed their hands & faces, before and after meals.
It is true there were no sewer systems in most places, and this caused some complications. It's also true that garbage was tossed in streets, helping to foster disease. However, records indicate that there were work teams in towns which tried to haul out the garbage, and there were many lamentations about this job not getting done! So we know that medieval people were aware that this was a problem. When plagues struck a town, they knew enough to quarantine the sick, even if this didn't prevent transmission of the disease (as in the case of the bubonic plague).
It was not until the Renaissance when frequent bathing became frowned upon, and there was a good reason even for this. Europe's water supply had become contaminated by sewage, and bathing could expose one to disease. This is really the source of this myth
Tsk, tsk. Enlighted Renaissance, indeed. The full text can be found at: http://pages.cthome.net/djhalnon/myths.html
______________________________________
Ysselt Ja'Haadraan, adar
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillondus"
_____________________________________
Also enlightening is this bit:
A common myth is that medieval people had poor hygiene. There is no evidence, however, to support this. While it is true that they did not bathe daily, as most Americans do nowadays, it's not true that they never bathed. They cared for their hair, and men trimmed their beards. They often washed their hands & faces, before and after meals.
It is true there were no sewer systems in most places, and this caused some complications. It's also true that garbage was tossed in streets, helping to foster disease. However, records indicate that there were work teams in towns which tried to haul out the garbage, and there were many lamentations about this job not getting done! So we know that medieval people were aware that this was a problem. When plagues struck a town, they knew enough to quarantine the sick, even if this didn't prevent transmission of the disease (as in the case of the bubonic plague).
It was not until the Renaissance when frequent bathing became frowned upon, and there was a good reason even for this. Europe's water supply had become contaminated by sewage, and bathing could expose one to disease. This is really the source of this myth
Tsk, tsk. Enlighted Renaissance, indeed. The full text can be found at: http://pages.cthome.net/djhalnon/myths.html
______________________________________
Ysselt Ja'Haadraan, adar
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillondus"
_____________________________________
So the lack of firewood is what helped slow down bathing, supposedly? Then how did the population eat? Considering the stove is a more modern invention which requires less fuel to operate than a full hearth (and the theories behind the invention of it go from trying to conserve fuel to the fact that men found a way to not chop as much wood and have less work to do) that's a pretty neat trick.
Also, doesn't the old phrase about 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' come from the whole familiar bathing practice of the medieval time period?
~Achrennight
"Sweet desert rose
Each of her veils, a secret promise
This desert flower
No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this"
Also, doesn't the old phrase about 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' come from the whole familiar bathing practice of the medieval time period?
~Achrennight
"Sweet desert rose
Each of her veils, a secret promise
This desert flower
No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this"
>>So the lack of firewood is what helped slow down bathing, supposedly?
Incorrect.
The plagues of the 16th Century put a real damper on bathing. Except for Nostradamus and a few other enlightened souls, bathing was considered a health hazard, and to be avoided at all costs.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
Incorrect.
The plagues of the 16th Century put a real damper on bathing. Except for Nostradamus and a few other enlightened souls, bathing was considered a health hazard, and to be avoided at all costs.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
<<The plagues of the 16th Century put a real damper on bathing. Except for Nostradamus and a few other enlightened souls, bathing was considered a health hazard, and to be avoided at all costs.>>
Actually by more than a few enlightened souls knew the virtues of bathing. Hence the plague usually didn't hit the Jewish ghettos as hard because of the use of the ritual bath, or Mikveh, and the custom of washing ones hands both before eating and after using the "facilities", which was regulated by the Shuchan Aruch <halachah, or laws which were customarily followed by most Medieval Jewish communities>.
As the plague was spread by fleas which infested rats, bathing did much to prevent it, by making sure ones clothes and body didn't have those fleas - in the absence of modern antibiotics, etc.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
>>Actually by more than a few enlightened souls knew the virtues of bathing.
Well it was taken off a webpage. Take it for what it worth. But the palague part being why bathing decreased I have heard from a few sources, so I accept that part at least.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
Well it was taken off a webpage. Take it for what it worth. But the palague part being why bathing decreased I have heard from a few sources, so I accept that part at least.
Brabs
Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.
"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"
Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss
[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"
Yep, bathing was considered a health hazard, but I don't think it was entirely unfounded. Most bathing in those days would have been done with water from or in the local river where, in the cases of many big cities anyway, is also where the sewage ended up.
______
I came into this world, not chiefly to make this a good place to live in, but to live in it, be it good or bad.
- Henry David Thoreau
______
I came into this world, not chiefly to make this a good place to live in, but to live in it, be it good or bad.
- Henry David Thoreau
Plus they were sort of right in that they shared bathwater, so if one person got the plague and bathed, everyone else in that family would get it.
Steel.
YOU HAVE <insert ability here>!! YOU ARE OVERPOWERED!! DIE GUILD DIE!!!
Now with combat move charts!
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Steel.
YOU HAVE <insert ability here>!! YOU ARE OVERPOWERED!! DIE GUILD DIE!!!
Now with combat move charts!
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/steelflash
