Having a burden that is amazing you aren't squashed holding 1 copper kronar and a tunic is bad thing.

Falling down lifting a dart is a bad thing.

*	Move	Survive	Learn
1	STR	STAM	WIS
2	AGI	REF	INT
3	-	DISC	-
4	-	CHR	-

That's Detail Free so you can Make your own Details.

---

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

When the only possible impact of your model is to give a newbie an erroneously simplified idea of how stats function, you may wish to consider a new one.

-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.

Hopefully there is no how in that table, just what.

That table is just what type of stat they are, not how they work.

If it's too simple, I don't know what to say.

Or were you referring to the fact that I "leveled" them, level 1 is str stamina wisdom in each of the catagories, giving each stat a priority for what you want to do.

---

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

Stamina should be no means be at the top of your 'survive' section, Charisma shouldnt be in it at all. Disc only really affects shield as far as 'surviving combat' in a defensive manner, with the possible exception of stealths if the person trains them.

Basically, your table is innaccurate, and completely unhelpful to whomever you're trying to give advice to. When its not giving blatantly wrong information, its giving unclear and easily misunderstood information (I'm far from positive you even understand how these things work yourself from your last several posts).

Just stop.

---

Eladrin

<<Shnurui:

I understand what you are trying to do with your table, but I do not think you can simplify it to that level without doing a disservice to your purpose.

A table I personally would like to see, if someone were willing to put the research time in to it, would be to list each stat followed by a list of things it impacts, based on the latest GM information - similar to what Lord-Rahl started in his post earlier.

Agility - affects this, this, that, and this.
Strength - affects this, that, is used in this, impact that other thing.
etc.

Elanthipedia (http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Stats) has a brief table, and describes each stat in detail nicely, but you could take that information and make a condensed "cheat-sheet" table from it.


~Brian/Bahb

This brings me back to the time of the "back of the line guy.." minus the hot headed temper.

-Stayn

>>mozziks post

True, alot of the physical stats are more evident, or at least simpler to understand. The mentals arent really a huge mystery though.

Int. - helps with exp pools, the effectiveness of your perception skill, Origami, spells in the WvW category, and probably a handful of other minor things.

Wis - pretty much identical to above, except it doesnt affect origami.

Char- Doesnt truly affect bartering from what im told (though i could be wrong on this) does affect likelihood of getting off innocent on crimes, heavy factor in WvW spells and bardic abilities, autodepart timer (which should be largely irrelevant to anyone that isnt badly afk scripting), barbarian roars, and a handful of other minor things probably.

Disc- helps with targetted magic, affects shield skill, noticeable impact on stealth skills, noticeable impact on overall concentration, supposedly an impact on burden <though its negligeable as far as i can tell>, heavy factor in WvW spells, also a large factor in SvA and SvStam, small impact in Svspirit.

---

Eladrin

Yea, i was just agreeing that, while they arent as visible in their effects, its no real secret what they do. Though burn 4000 tdps on int and wis and youll see quite a difference in learning rates, and be able to search out people you couldnt find before.
Put 10 ranks in disc and you might find critters that saw you hide alot dont now, etc. etc.

Mentals may not as obviously save your life, but the effects of training them can be quite noticeable.

---

Eladrin

The English Definitions.

Strength, the ability to lift an amount of weight.
Stamina, The ability to continue over an amount of time.
Discipline, The ability to focus on a task.
Agility, The flexabilty of the body.
Reflex, The fliexabilty of the mind.
Intelligence, The data of the mind.
Wisdom, The understanding of the mind.
Charisma, The attractiveness of the body and personality.

The Game Definitions.
>Strength
Strength affects your roundtimes with weapons, how hard you hit, how much you can carry, and is used in magical 'spell versus stamina' contests, among other things.

>Stamina
Stamina increases the amount of damage your body can take, improves your capacity for carrying things, and is used in magical 'spell versus stamina' contests, among other things.

>Discipline
Discipline helps you resist fear effects, improves the size of your experience pools, and is used in various magical 'spell versus statistic' contests (particularly 'spell versus will' contests), among other things.

>Agility
Agility helps you hit with weapons and targeted spells, improves manual tasks such as skinning or disarming, and is used in magical 'spell versus agility' contests, among other things.

>Reflex
Reflex improves your skill at evading, and is used in magical 'spell versus agility' contests, among other things.

>Intelligence
Intelligence improves the size of your experience pools, and is used in magical 'spell versus will' contests, among other things.

>Wisdom
Wisdom increases the speed at which your experience turns into real ranks, among other things.

>Charisma
Charisma helps you with Bardic songs, bargain with shopkeepers, extends your spirit health (and therefore the time it takes before you auto-depart after dying), and is used in various magical 'spell vs statistic' contests, among other things.

From the available data, these facts are true.

Strength, Agility, and Stamina are purely physical stats.

Reflex, Discipline, Intelligence, Wisdom are purely mental stats.

Charisma is Both, affecting the physical and mental.

This makes, my table 100% valid, if a little loose.

All the table says is,

Strength and Agility affect the physical body.

Intel and Wisdom affect the mental process.

Everything else is a Survival stat, as in, it helps game life easier.

If you want to break it down further,

Importance	Move	Combat	Magic	Learn
1	str	stam	disc	wis
2	agi	ref	cha	int

To continue with the FFX-2 reference, that would be the second dress sphere.

Rank of Importance:

Some stats are more important than others to do different things. Different stats are not more important than any other stat until you start talking tactics. If Tactics are not being considered, there is no point in considering stats.

While learning Intel or wisdom will not prevent you from getting smacked around, immediately, they will allow your evasion skill to absorb faster into solid ranks which will in the end balance out the bonus you get for having a higher reflex, though the character with more reflex and the same experience will still have a defensive advantage in the immediate sphere.

Stamina does not translate into strength. The game may do so, but in the real world the person who lasts longest in a battle is the one who wins. It's called the laws of attrition. If a combatant is eliminated outright, it doesn't matter how much stamina it had. If a combatant can't land even a single hit, it doesn't matter how strong they are.

Discipline and Charisma are Focus skills, they both affect the focus on or of a character. That naked streaker with the beer belly and the flabby arms is not going to draw as much attention as Madonna riding her horse.
The men with the discipline to ignore Madonna's nude ride lived to see the next day, the king executed the men who became slack jawed.

Being able to distract or disgust with a bit of cleavage is a survival trait, ergo, Survival is, the ability to take a hit, the ability to avoid a hit, the ability to block the pain, and the ability to cause the hit not to happen in the first place.

Stamina, Reflex, Discipline, Charisma are all survival traits.

Agility is a move stat, as in it's how well you move to get to where you want to be. 0 Agility is the drunk walking into the door jam trying to leave the bar, yes this is also reflex, but agility is how well you control your muscles to do what you want them to do, when you want them to do it.

I know I've never added an intel and went from getting one shot killed to 2 shot killed or walking away.

Moving remains the first most important stat set, without it, survival is futile, and learning is impossible.

That means if you can carry yourself, and stand up long enough to hunt, it doesn't mater if your agility is 1 over your strength or 99 over your strength, as long as strength serves its purpose of keeping you on your feet.

That means if you never get hit, by all means run around with 1 stamina and 99 reflex. Oops, was that a paper cut?

That means if you want to have all the data in the world but never learn anything, go ahead and get 99 int and 1 wisdom.

All the stats work in unison, having a severe difference in any one is left to those who know what they're doing.

---

There is a large blind spot on most hill giants.

Unfortunately, it's under their feet.

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely useless to game play.

So exactly what game is Shnurui playing?


~Arwinia

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target262.html

<<So exactly what game is Shnurui playing?

I don't know. My eyes kind of glazed over. Did anyone actually help the poor soul in the other thread?


- George, Player of Foresee

Incidentally, this does remind me that all the stat verbs are seriously out of date.

GMs please update them? This would be a huge boon to newbies that have no idea what to train.

---

Rev. Reene

Ventuul whispers, "OOC: It seems like you attract winners though, good job."

>You should look up those definitions. You didn't even spell flexibility correctly.

Yet, you spelled it the same way.

>Reflexes are not a purely mental stat they're a physical reaction to something.

Try this.

Stab your chair with a knife.

Now, stab your hand.

Which one "Responds"? The one with the brain, we hope?

Reflexes are mental reactions to physical stimulae. Reflexes Are Mental. Without a Mental there is No Reflex action.

Reflexes are Mental, Test 2:

Throw a ball for your dog.

Throw a ball for your chair.

Which one will at least watch the ball leave your hand?

This is called a Reflex.

Reflexes are Mental, Test 3:

Slap your friend on the back, nothing violent.

Now slap your chair.

Which one says Hi?

---

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

Seriously shnurui, you have to sit down and think that if all of these people who know more than you are telling you that you are wrong... you just might be wrong.

Admit it, accept it, and move on. You're not providing anything valuable in this thread.


- George, Player of Foresee

>Eladrin
1> Do the reflex test.
2> Don't correct a misspelling with a misspelling.
fliexabiltiy is not properly spelled.
flexability is not properly spelled.
flexibility is properly spelled. The spell check says so.

If you don't think the Mental part of the Reflex is in the game, do this test instead.

Stab a rock.
Stab a frog.

Which one tries to get out of the way?

Point at a rock.
Point at a familliar.

Which one looks back at you?

Slap a rock.
Slap your friend.

Which one gives you a cold stare or says hi?
Which one has a Reflex Action, a Reaction?

---

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

<<GMs please update them? This would be a huge boon to newbies
Sad that a player has to request the game to be updated to be correct on a core system.

-Stayn

>So because my mind tells my arms to lift something strength is a mental stat too. Everything works through the brain.

No that's reflex, your mind is speaking.

It's also agility, your body is listening.

Strength is what happens when at rest and in motion.

Agility is only in motion.

Reflex is before, during, and after motion.

If I'm 100% wrong, why are the trolls nit picking the idiotraps and typos?

>Tell your friend to pick up a pack full of boxes. Tell a rock to pick up a pack full of boxes. Which one is too burdened to be able to pick up the pack?

>Obviously the rock, since it just sits there. Strength is a mental stat per Shnurui's test criteria. Same can be said for agility and stamina. There are no physical stats, it's all mental. There is no spoon.

This generates an action, which requires a response, the rock can not respond as it has no parts other than the rock. It only further proves the rock has no brain.

However if you SET the pack on the friend and SET the pack on the rock, which one feels it? Which one changes positions? Which one actually moves.

If you're going to use my test criteria, please make sure you're not adding rogue factors, such as lifting, which is a reaction, a reflex, to a command.

Again your friend feels it, the rock doesn't notice.

The rock has no strength, and no mind, but a whole lot of stamina. How long before your friend drops that pack?

How long before the rock notices it's even under a pack?

>What's your point with this? You're not providing any real argument towards it being a mental reaction. Everything you've suggested says a physical reaction.

-.0 Did you hit post without previewing what you said? You're confusing response with reaction.

It proves that it is a mental response. All physical reactions that are not motion based are caused by an ego or an id.

If the rock skitters away after being struck that is the reaction of the blade transferring.

If the frog gets out of the way Before being struck, that is the response of the mind saying that the blade might hurt. The knife doesn't even have to hit the frog before it reacts.

Push the tree branch back and it swings forward. This is a reaction but it is not a reflex, it is a mechanical reaction, the same as the rock being struck.

Time, and thus reflex, are purely mental concepts.

---

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless. --GM Wythor

These statements were not endorsed or made by a GM and may be completely irrealavent to game play.

A post has been hidden.

Ending madness, etc.

-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.

At this point, I can't believe the posting is honest.