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So, this isn't something that's particularly easy to solve, but it is something that irks me in general about the guild. Berserking is, especially early on, the strongest and most powerful thing about being a barbarian. It is, to an extent, infinite fatigue, increases in damage... all that good stuff.
The sad part is, though, that we are the most wary in using it, against the foes we consider the strongest. I'm not talking like trying to kill Rock Guardians when you are level 10, I mean when you 'upgrade' to a new hunting ground.
Instead of us being able to berserk and start smashing heads in, we instead fight almost trader style (Trader +roars?) because the likely hood of needing to flee is too high.
The reason I say this is backwards, is not because of the 'why' but because of the 'what'. What ends up happening is that Berserk is used around things that are comparatively easy to kill, instead of things that are worthy opponents for fighting. Because even though it lends us great strength, we get really sick of 'just dying' because another guy shows up and we simply can't handle it.
The first time I recall this happening was fighting cougars near wolf clan. I young Ogre shows up while I'm fighting a pair of cougars... I don't recall what level I was, but somewhere under 10, clearly no match for the ogre. Of course, the ogre was a pretty random add to the fight, since they don't normally spawn there (Not regularly, anyway). It comes to melee, and I watch 100% helplessly as I'm cut down... Same thing happened later on with a wolf spider out the east gate of Riverhaven (Shamans and rams).
Wouldn't it be nice if berserking was something we did to try to go more toe to toe with nasty critters, and not something we did to make sweeping up little puny things faster?
>Wouldn't it be nice if berserking was something we did to try to go more toe to toe with nasty critters, and not something we did to make sweeping up little puny things faster?
I think one of the points to berserk is that you CAN use them to go more toe-to-toe with nasty critters, you just can't expect the normal easy way out if it proves to be too much.
-Durnil
I think one of the points to berserk is that you CAN use them to go more toe-to-toe with nasty critters, you just can't expect the normal easy way out if it proves to be too much.
-Durnil
A) As your first roar (or your next one) choose Serpent's Hiss of Warning or Caution of The Spider.
B) Train your charisma high enough to hit a room full of enemies with low voice level (both Caution and Serpent are extremely easy to succeed, you shouldn't need ungodly charisma for this).
C) Avoid hunting grounds with a mix of high-level and mid-level critters (this is a pretty general tip, but especially true for berserkers).
Using the above strategies as well as situational awareness (knowing the enemies I'm hunting, how bad the swarm is, which rooms gen the most, how many I can handle before I start taking big hits) I haven't died due to an inability to retreat in over 15 circles.
Most Barbs end up switching to dances later on. I'm pretty sure I am going to be a berserking Barb for life. The danger of the no-retreat is part of what allowed team Barb to code such monstrously powerful abilities.
>>and DIMINISHEDANGLE.
He's so acute.
-Durnil
B) Train your charisma high enough to hit a room full of enemies with low voice level (both Caution and Serpent are extremely easy to succeed, you shouldn't need ungodly charisma for this).
C) Avoid hunting grounds with a mix of high-level and mid-level critters (this is a pretty general tip, but especially true for berserkers).
Using the above strategies as well as situational awareness (knowing the enemies I'm hunting, how bad the swarm is, which rooms gen the most, how many I can handle before I start taking big hits) I haven't died due to an inability to retreat in over 15 circles.
Most Barbs end up switching to dances later on. I'm pretty sure I am going to be a berserking Barb for life. The danger of the no-retreat is part of what allowed team Barb to code such monstrously powerful abilities.
>>and DIMINISHEDANGLE.
He's so acute.
-Durnil
>>Most Barbs end up switching to dances later on. I'm pretty sure I am going to be a berserking Barb for life. The danger of the no-retreat is part of what allowed team Barb to code such monstrously powerful abilities.
That makes two of us that will remain berserkers. I don't use dances all that much, though I expect when I get dragon that will change some. But a berserking Barb is what I am.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
That makes two of us that will remain berserkers. I don't use dances all that much, though I expect when I get dragon that will change some. But a berserking Barb is what I am.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Berserk Cyclone. All I have to say is Berserk Cyclone. It is very, very rare that I die ever because of this move. I cannot wait until 80th, so I can dance eagle all the time, and then berserk cyclone if I am stunned. This ability is possibly the greatest Barbarian ability in "creature" combat because if used right nearly voids death, <especially with an azure-scaled polo'izh hide cloak>, because not only does it unstun, if you are lying down you leap to your feet, restores your balance, allowing you to retreat, also boosting agility, so that if you use a bow like I do, increases your ability to kill whatever may be overwhelming you, while lasting enough to escape the area afterward. I use my imagination for each berserk, and not everyone I think about has a direct offensive purpose, some do, which should be used as such, but a lot of them have much more to offer than simply turning me into a hulking lug with a club.
Creatrix, Plague Wind
Creatrix, Plague Wind
Berserk cyclone really is fantastic. I'm looking forward to the day when I can stack Blood, Stone and Cyclone, but Cyclone still costs a little too much to stack effectively right now for me.
Dances are great. I love using Cobra and Eagle occasionally to make training more effective, but Wolverine was the first dance that really tempted me, but I simply have not reached a point where I would ever consider using dances over MO boost and anti-stun yet. That will probably change at 80th circle, certainly, but that's still a long time from now.
Basically, given proper roar selection and effective training, the penalties of berserks can almost be completely negated.
>>This ability is possibly the greatest Barbarian ability in "creature" combat because if used right nearly voids death, because not only does it unstun, if you are lying down you leap to your feet, restores your balance,
All berserks do this.
>><especially with an azure-scaled polo'izh hide cloak>,
I would start divorcing myself from that polo cloak if I were you ;).
Dances are great. I love using Cobra and Eagle occasionally to make training more effective, but Wolverine was the first dance that really tempted me, but I simply have not reached a point where I would ever consider using dances over MO boost and anti-stun yet. That will probably change at 80th circle, certainly, but that's still a long time from now.
Basically, given proper roar selection and effective training, the penalties of berserks can almost be completely negated.
>>This ability is possibly the greatest Barbarian ability in "creature" combat because if used right nearly voids death, because not only does it unstun, if you are lying down you leap to your feet, restores your balance,
All berserks do this.
>><especially with an azure-scaled polo'izh hide cloak>,
I would start divorcing myself from that polo cloak if I were you ;).
>>This ability is possibly the greatest Barbarian ability in "creature" combat because if used right nearly voids death, because not only does it unstun, if you are lying down you leap to your feet, restores your balance,
>>All berserks do this.
Not to the degree Cyclone does. Nothing compares to the balance boost you get post stun, all while still allowing you to retreat.
>>I would start divorcing myself from that polo cloak if I were you ;).
Why, I just married it! They downtweaked invisibility already very recently. I think we have seen the end of changes on these things for a bit. At least I hope there are greater priorities than policing a 2000 platinum item.
>>All berserks do this.
Not to the degree Cyclone does. Nothing compares to the balance boost you get post stun, all while still allowing you to retreat.
>>I would start divorcing myself from that polo cloak if I were you ;).
Why, I just married it! They downtweaked invisibility already very recently. I think we have seen the end of changes on these things for a bit. At least I hope there are greater priorities than policing a 2000 platinum item.
>>Why, I just married it! They downtweaked invisibility already very recently. I think we have seen the end of changes on these things for a bit. At least I hope there are greater priorities than policing a 2000 platinum item.
Not because of changes to invisibility, but because as per the last Barbarian meeting one of the 'sooner' changes that will be coming to the Barb guild is ACTUAL penalties for magic ranks and using magical devices. You might not be able to use cyclone berserk if you've got MD ranks, just as one possible example.
Not because of changes to invisibility, but because as per the last Barbarian meeting one of the 'sooner' changes that will be coming to the Barb guild is ACTUAL penalties for magic ranks and using magical devices. You might not be able to use cyclone berserk if you've got MD ranks, just as one possible example.
>>Not because of changes to invisibility, but because as per the last Barbarian meeting one of the 'sooner' changes that will be coming to the Barb guild is ACTUAL penalties for magic ranks and using magical devices. You might not be able to use cyclone berserk if you've got MD ranks, just as one possible example.
You don't need MD ranks to use a polo cloak.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
You don't need MD ranks to use a polo cloak.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>No, you don't. But it's still a magical item.
So are gweths. If I understood the GMs correctly, Barbs would only be penalized for having magic ranks, which would prevent the use of magical items that required magic ranks if they chose eliminate the ranks.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
So are gweths. If I understood the GMs correctly, Barbs would only be penalized for having magic ranks, which would prevent the use of magical items that required magic ranks if they chose eliminate the ranks.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>So are gweths. If I understood the GMs correctly, Barbs would only be penalized for having magic ranks, which would prevent the use of magical items that required magic ranks if they chose eliminate the ranks.
Hmm. This is a good point. Now that I think about it, it would probably be difficult to mechanically update every single magical item, past and present, within the game to prevent use by Barbarians. It would be much easier to simply check for magic ranks.
Hmm. This is a good point. Now that I think about it, it would probably be difficult to mechanically update every single magical item, past and present, within the game to prevent use by Barbarians. It would be much easier to simply check for magic ranks.
>>could be like this:
That's fine. I think the problem is not berserk-side but item side.
To elaborate on your example with my own rough point:
INV ITEM #1=Magical
INV ITEM #2=!Magical
>berserk cyclone
If INV ITEM (%1) = magical,
THEN fail
ELSE succeed
You need to actually label the items so the game will mechanically recognize them somehow. I obviously don't have access to the game code but I imagine that is how it would work. Based on previous changes (like the semi-recent change to some shop and festival items to make them sturdier or weigh less by Oolan), the item's attributes are stored on the item itself, not handled through a universal database... I theorize.
That may not make sense so don't listen to the exact details. The real point is that changing every polo cloak in existence if it weren't already properly labeled would be either very difficult or impossible.
That's fine. I think the problem is not berserk-side but item side.
To elaborate on your example with my own rough point:
INV ITEM #1=Magical
INV ITEM #2=!Magical
>berserk cyclone
If INV ITEM (%1) = magical,
THEN fail
ELSE succeed
You need to actually label the items so the game will mechanically recognize them somehow. I obviously don't have access to the game code but I imagine that is how it would work. Based on previous changes (like the semi-recent change to some shop and festival items to make them sturdier or weigh less by Oolan), the item's attributes are stored on the item itself, not handled through a universal database... I theorize.
That may not make sense so don't listen to the exact details. The real point is that changing every polo cloak in existence if it weren't already properly labeled would be either very difficult or impossible.
>>We're unable to berserk, dance, or roar while using a polo cloak already.
Well there you go. I don't own one.
My original point though was that using the polo cloak would not be the actual crime. Simply WEARING it would constitute an infringement and necessitate a penalty... at least, that's how I originally interpreted the upcoming changes.
Well there you go. I don't own one.
My original point though was that using the polo cloak would not be the actual crime. Simply WEARING it would constitute an infringement and necessitate a penalty... at least, that's how I originally interpreted the upcoming changes.
We're unable to initiate those while using the cloak, I mean. If we're already dancing or berserking then we can use the polo cloak.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>You need to actually label the items so the game will mechanically recognize them somehow.
I'm fairly certain that when a mage focuses on an item, whether or not it has a magical pattern shows up. I'm guessing that this is an attribute of the item just like whether it is metal or wearable.
-Durnil
I'm fairly certain that when a mage focuses on an item, whether or not it has a magical pattern shows up. I'm guessing that this is an attribute of the item just like whether it is metal or wearable.
-Durnil
>>Ever since I berserked with 3 blood wolves and immediately 4 more entered the room simultaneously I havent touched it. In that case I went from "ok" to "certainly dead" just by berserking.
Berserks can have their bad moments, but I do think you might be missing out on a great ability if you refuse to use them because of that one situation. As mentioned earlier, it helps to get roars that affect the entire room to help with crowd control when berserking.
I know when I first used berserks I was kind of skeptical about them. But the best thing I can say helped is that I kept trying them , and eventually learned how to use them very effectively.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Berserks can have their bad moments, but I do think you might be missing out on a great ability if you refuse to use them because of that one situation. As mentioned earlier, it helps to get roars that affect the entire room to help with crowd control when berserking.
I know when I first used berserks I was kind of skeptical about them. But the best thing I can say helped is that I kept trying them , and eventually learned how to use them very effectively.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
While I absolutely love all the hard work you guys are putting in consider this my formal request. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE OH DEAR GOD PLEASE....
Please don't take away polo cloaks from us :( I beg you. We're already banned from gweth-smashers. Please don't take polo cloaks away.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
Please don't take away polo cloaks from us :( I beg you. We're already banned from gweth-smashers. Please don't take polo cloaks away.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
>>Yeah I'm not sure what part of your hatred of magic conveniently ignores.....magical items. If you want use magical items without repercussions, then you shouldnt have BMR:)
I agree.
I think for the purposes of simple gameplay mechanics and accessibility gweths and getting healed/resurrections should be an exception where a blind eye is turned to the seeming break of game logic, but I personally think polo cloaks should go.
I agree.
I think for the purposes of simple gameplay mechanics and accessibility gweths and getting healed/resurrections should be an exception where a blind eye is turned to the seeming break of game logic, but I personally think polo cloaks should go.
Both of you, stop this blasphemous talk right now. Im serious.
If you get rid of polo cloaks gweths should have to go as well. Its as simple as that. As to why Barbarians need invisibility... well, god where to even begin.
I'll just assume that posing a question like that - that you must have never been apart of an invasion or needed to kill someone via the element of surprise.
The polo cloak allows me to get out of a quick fix when Im dancing (cannot berserk out yet) and it also helps level the playing field a bit against stealth oriented guilds (strictly CvC standpoint there).
We cannot use CJs. This is fine, it requires knowledge of magical devices to envoke. A polo cloak however? I always thought of it like that cloak from that movie with the kid who is a wizard or something. I caught a bit of it on HBO and it looked like when he pulled it around him he started to disappear.
It doesn't sound so much magical as just a property of the hide. And turning a cloak, well hell anyone could do that. Polo cloaks give balance to all the other guilds who lack invisibility. Granted, its an expensive way to obtain balance but its there.
God please, don't remove polo cloaks. That change might actually cause me to throw in the towel as sad as that sounds.
Constantine you're a thief primary therefore your opinions on this matter are skewed. Radicals from the same camp as you have been calling for similar things such as
- Barbarians not being allowed to be healed
- Barbarians not being allowed to get resurrected
- Barbarians not being allowed to use gweths
It doesn't work from a playability standpoint. You're a NMU as well, why are you able to use a polo cloak? Because you can train MD but not really use anything. You cannot rub a rune and cast a spell, you cannot harness mana, you cannot really do anything magical except rub a CJ. Whoopdiedo.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
If you get rid of polo cloaks gweths should have to go as well. Its as simple as that. As to why Barbarians need invisibility... well, god where to even begin.
I'll just assume that posing a question like that - that you must have never been apart of an invasion or needed to kill someone via the element of surprise.
The polo cloak allows me to get out of a quick fix when Im dancing (cannot berserk out yet) and it also helps level the playing field a bit against stealth oriented guilds (strictly CvC standpoint there).
We cannot use CJs. This is fine, it requires knowledge of magical devices to envoke. A polo cloak however? I always thought of it like that cloak from that movie with the kid who is a wizard or something. I caught a bit of it on HBO and it looked like when he pulled it around him he started to disappear.
It doesn't sound so much magical as just a property of the hide. And turning a cloak, well hell anyone could do that. Polo cloaks give balance to all the other guilds who lack invisibility. Granted, its an expensive way to obtain balance but its there.
God please, don't remove polo cloaks. That change might actually cause me to throw in the towel as sad as that sounds.
Constantine you're a thief primary therefore your opinions on this matter are skewed. Radicals from the same camp as you have been calling for similar things such as
- Barbarians not being allowed to be healed
- Barbarians not being allowed to get resurrected
- Barbarians not being allowed to use gweths
It doesn't work from a playability standpoint. You're a NMU as well, why are you able to use a polo cloak? Because you can train MD but not really use anything. You cannot rub a rune and cast a spell, you cannot harness mana, you cannot really do anything magical except rub a CJ. Whoopdiedo.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
I don't see a problem with a Barbarian using certain magical things to aid him, as long as they're not technically "devices". Getting healed, raised, using gweths, and so on. Nothing wrong with walking through moon gates (yes, that is using magical aid) to me. Besides, not all Barbarians are supposed to be RP'ed as magic hateful beasts that would rather walk the starry road than touch something magical.
Polo cloaks are a bit different, which is why I can see why Barbarians are currently allowed to use them. If they nuke it, then so be it. But compare a polo cloak to an inviso ring. When you rub the ring, you vanish. When you turn the cloak, you vanish. Now, when you remove the ring, you still remain invisible. It's like the effects of the magic are a part of you. Whereas with the polo cloak, when you remove it, you come back out of invisibility, as if the effects of the cloak were just surrounding you.
Just an observation. In the end it's the GMs' call.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Polo cloaks are a bit different, which is why I can see why Barbarians are currently allowed to use them. If they nuke it, then so be it. But compare a polo cloak to an inviso ring. When you rub the ring, you vanish. When you turn the cloak, you vanish. Now, when you remove the ring, you still remain invisible. It's like the effects of the magic are a part of you. Whereas with the polo cloak, when you remove it, you come back out of invisibility, as if the effects of the cloak were just surrounding you.
Just an observation. In the end it's the GMs' call.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>I'll just assume that posing a question like that - that you must have never been apart of an invasion or needed to kill someone via the element of surprise.
I've been part of an invasion. Running when I see a creature that can one-shot me at missile range instead of using invisibility works quite well for that. I can actually type in 's' or 'se' just as quickly as you can use your shortest hotkeyed macro for 'turn my cloak.'
And actually no, I've never needed to surprise someone. I don't see why I would need to, either. 99% of my conflicts are tourneys or sparring, and AoE and CJs and polo cloaks and the like are usually outlawed in most tourneys.
>>The polo cloak allows me to get out of a quick fix when Im dancing (cannot berserk out yet)
Caution of the Spider and berserking has prevented me from dying in combat for the last 15 circles.
>>and it also helps level the playing field a bit against stealth oriented guilds (strictly CvC standpoint there).
Again, I don't see the NEED for invisibility. Between Slash the Shadow, Caution, Serpent's Hiss, berserks, dances, and whirlwind when used correctly I've never died and thought 'If only I could be invisible!'
FYI, I have a Thief at circle 53 and I never use the khri. Spar or some other khri is better 90% of the time; I find the invisibility restrictions far too limiting. I'd almost rather use khri silence or some other underpowered ability than invisibility.
Given this, I think it's obvious that my dislike for invisibility is a personal preference. Likewise, however, I think it's sort of silly to claim that polo cloaks are mandatory for success in any given situation.
I've been part of an invasion. Running when I see a creature that can one-shot me at missile range instead of using invisibility works quite well for that. I can actually type in 's' or 'se' just as quickly as you can use your shortest hotkeyed macro for 'turn my cloak.'
And actually no, I've never needed to surprise someone. I don't see why I would need to, either. 99% of my conflicts are tourneys or sparring, and AoE and CJs and polo cloaks and the like are usually outlawed in most tourneys.
>>The polo cloak allows me to get out of a quick fix when Im dancing (cannot berserk out yet)
Caution of the Spider and berserking has prevented me from dying in combat for the last 15 circles.
>>and it also helps level the playing field a bit against stealth oriented guilds (strictly CvC standpoint there).
Again, I don't see the NEED for invisibility. Between Slash the Shadow, Caution, Serpent's Hiss, berserks, dances, and whirlwind when used correctly I've never died and thought 'If only I could be invisible!'
FYI, I have a Thief at circle 53 and I never use the khri. Spar or some other khri is better 90% of the time; I find the invisibility restrictions far too limiting. I'd almost rather use khri silence or some other underpowered ability than invisibility.
Given this, I think it's obvious that my dislike for invisibility is a personal preference. Likewise, however, I think it's sort of silly to claim that polo cloaks are mandatory for success in any given situation.
The whole barbarians "hate" magic thing is just silly anyway.
I see barbarians viewing magic users in a similar manner the various classes looked at one another in Brave New World: Deltas are simple and have to work too hard. We need Deltas and the work they do is important, but I sure am glad I'm not a Delta (not even close to being a quote I'm sure). Moon mages are weak and can't do anything without magic. The devices they make and the gates they open are very usefull, but I sure am glad I don't have to wait for a moon to be up to feel strong (or sit down to pee like most of them either!).
Barbarians fight side by side with other guilds. We don't take an IF hit just because we see a spell being prepped. The presence of mana doesn't alarm us, it exists almost everywhere.
The thought that having a rune on your person being enough to overcome a barbarian's resolve and self-confidence seems a bit much to me. I don't see barbs as being that fragile.
At any rate, if the GMs decide that barbs need to remove themselves from magic and shun it as much as possible, then don't do it halfway. Take away gweths, blessed weapons, give penalties for having spells cast on you, and make it tougher to get healed.
Every reason you can give for why we should and why we shouldn't be able to use blessed weapons can be applied to polo cloaks, camo cloaks, and gweths. Don't let convenience dictate the use of these items, use IG logic and apply it to everything.
Norm
I see barbarians viewing magic users in a similar manner the various classes looked at one another in Brave New World: Deltas are simple and have to work too hard. We need Deltas and the work they do is important, but I sure am glad I'm not a Delta (not even close to being a quote I'm sure). Moon mages are weak and can't do anything without magic. The devices they make and the gates they open are very usefull, but I sure am glad I don't have to wait for a moon to be up to feel strong (or sit down to pee like most of them either!).
Barbarians fight side by side with other guilds. We don't take an IF hit just because we see a spell being prepped. The presence of mana doesn't alarm us, it exists almost everywhere.
The thought that having a rune on your person being enough to overcome a barbarian's resolve and self-confidence seems a bit much to me. I don't see barbs as being that fragile.
At any rate, if the GMs decide that barbs need to remove themselves from magic and shun it as much as possible, then don't do it halfway. Take away gweths, blessed weapons, give penalties for having spells cast on you, and make it tougher to get healed.
Every reason you can give for why we should and why we shouldn't be able to use blessed weapons can be applied to polo cloaks, camo cloaks, and gweths. Don't let convenience dictate the use of these items, use IG logic and apply it to everything.
Norm
>>At any rate, if the GMs decide that barbs need to remove themselves from magic and shun it as much as possible, then don't do it halfway. Take away gweths, blessed weapons, give penalties for having spells cast on you, and make it tougher to get healed.
I disagree. Playability should dictate game logic, not vice-versa. I don't really think it's implausible to justify Empathy while outlawing polo cloaks. It's a fictional universe, you can justify anything with nuance.
However, this is all just opinion, and it is my opinion that polo cloaks, while not inherently 'unbarbaric,' are entirely unnecessary.
Warrior Mages should learn GvG at a primary rate!!!11!
FuquIriqouis
I disagree. Playability should dictate game logic, not vice-versa. I don't really think it's implausible to justify Empathy while outlawing polo cloaks. It's a fictional universe, you can justify anything with nuance.
However, this is all just opinion, and it is my opinion that polo cloaks, while not inherently 'unbarbaric,' are entirely unnecessary.
Warrior Mages should learn GvG at a primary rate!!!11!
FuquIriqouis
With herbs to heal you, lungs and gestures to convey your thoughts, and plenty of hunting options that will let you avoid needing blessed weapons it would certainly be possible for a barb to rid himself of magic in every manner that is under his direct control.
Playability is almost definitly the driving force behind why barbs can use polo cloaks. Not because barbs are unplayable without them, but because the game might become less fun for many if barbs can't use blessed weapons, gweths, and get healed. IG logic that justified the guild being able to use these things that make the game interesting and more playable had to be developed. A few items that more than one GM has alluded to being less than keen on were let through the cracks to maintain IG logic.
Atleast that's what I like to imagine when I ask myself why the heck is it ok for me to use my camo cloak, polo cloak, and empath armband.
Norm
Playability is almost definitly the driving force behind why barbs can use polo cloaks. Not because barbs are unplayable without them, but because the game might become less fun for many if barbs can't use blessed weapons, gweths, and get healed. IG logic that justified the guild being able to use these things that make the game interesting and more playable had to be developed. A few items that more than one GM has alluded to being less than keen on were let through the cracks to maintain IG logic.
Atleast that's what I like to imagine when I ask myself why the heck is it ok for me to use my camo cloak, polo cloak, and empath armband.
Norm
The element of surprise as well as initiative is VERY important when it comes to real conflicts (not tourneys or spars). In certain situations, a polo cloak can be pretty invaluable to anyone who has one. On a pretty basic level, if you want to compete with people who know what they're doing, then it can be pretty mandatory if you don't want to keep getting killed.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
You guys are being hypocrits. No offense. Things like gweths, healing and raising are allowed because they are necessities of the game. You being able to VANISH into invisibility however is a perk of a magical item. Its no different from rubbing an invisibility charm other than the mechanics involved in it. All this prattling to argue in its favor just seems similar to what happened when CJ were altered along with sleep abuse.
Your utilizing a magical device to wield an IG advantage in combat. Last I recall barbarians disdain for such things is why they wield BRM. Maybe a nice fix to all this would be to apply the barbarians full BRM against any magical item. If you want to vanish; go train hiding. However dont try this 'having your cake and eating it to' argument.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Your utilizing a magical device to wield an IG advantage in combat. Last I recall barbarians disdain for such things is why they wield BRM. Maybe a nice fix to all this would be to apply the barbarians full BRM against any magical item. If you want to vanish; go train hiding. However dont try this 'having your cake and eating it to' argument.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Sadly the ability to "VANISH" is the most overpowered skill in the game.
I speak of Hiding and Stalking. The Survival Prime Guilds have a HUGE bonus in combat. Thiefs with 2/3s my Barb's combats can hunt where HE does because of Backstab (AMBUSH).
In CvC a survival prime can Load a Bow, aim it, hide and shoot me ...just because I haven't juggled enough. There goes masters of Combat..
The Polo Cloak is like a Blessed Weapon, a tool to aid you in combat. The Inviso ring, as someone pointed out, acts as thought it casts the spell on you. They are much different weapons.
I don't own one, but I agree, take away Gweths, blessed weapons, and Empaths if you take away polo cloaks.
The logic is the same behind the use of all.
I speak of Hiding and Stalking. The Survival Prime Guilds have a HUGE bonus in combat. Thiefs with 2/3s my Barb's combats can hunt where HE does because of Backstab (AMBUSH).
In CvC a survival prime can Load a Bow, aim it, hide and shoot me ...just because I haven't juggled enough. There goes masters of Combat..
The Polo Cloak is like a Blessed Weapon, a tool to aid you in combat. The Inviso ring, as someone pointed out, acts as thought it casts the spell on you. They are much different weapons.
I don't own one, but I agree, take away Gweths, blessed weapons, and Empaths if you take away polo cloaks.
The logic is the same behind the use of all.
<<Why would invisibility be necessary for Barbs anyways?>>
Polo cloaks as related to magical items aside, Barbarians are not just mindless attack, attack, attack invisibility is part of a stratigic well planned fight be it CvC or CvE If Paladins are are the tatical generals, and War mages are just artility pieaces, then Barbarians are closer the special forces (espially as they go up the ability ladder) then to grunts whos only role is to get in there and slug it out.
Polo cloaks as related to magical items aside, Barbarians are not just mindless attack, attack, attack invisibility is part of a stratigic well planned fight be it CvC or CvE If Paladins are are the tatical generals, and War mages are just artility pieaces, then Barbarians are closer the special forces (espially as they go up the ability ladder) then to grunts whos only role is to get in there and slug it out.
The only argument I'm seeing her so far is for player vs player combat. You have a large plethora of tools for player vs creature and pvp.
Fact is your actively utilizing a magical device to give you a rather sizable combat benefit. Thats no different than utilizing CJ. Gweths, Healing, and Ressurection as day to day necessaties of the realm. With the exception of say, Gweths, you can always make some argument as to why healing is 'natural' and not magic, and why ressurection is simply the grace of the gods. Weak explanation, yes, but no weaker than the argument to continue to allow the use of polo cloaks.
<<Polo cloaks as related to magical items aside, Barbarians are not just mindless attack, attack, attack invisibility is part of a stratigic well planned fight be it CvC or CvE If Paladins are are the tatical generals, and War mages are just artility pieaces, then Barbarians are closer the special forces (espially as they go up the ability ladder) then to grunts whos only role is to get in there and slug it out. >>
And barbarians as a point of guild pride themselves on doing their special stuff with their own natural muscle, mind, and steel; not with the aid of magical trinkets. If you want magical trinkets, then I dont see any argument to you guys having additional magical resistances. If you guys want access to those trinkets and devices so freely come be a basic NMU guild with basic NMU resistance;) Was I you guys of course, I would cling to my BMR for dear life.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Fact is your actively utilizing a magical device to give you a rather sizable combat benefit. Thats no different than utilizing CJ. Gweths, Healing, and Ressurection as day to day necessaties of the realm. With the exception of say, Gweths, you can always make some argument as to why healing is 'natural' and not magic, and why ressurection is simply the grace of the gods. Weak explanation, yes, but no weaker than the argument to continue to allow the use of polo cloaks.
<<Polo cloaks as related to magical items aside, Barbarians are not just mindless attack, attack, attack invisibility is part of a stratigic well planned fight be it CvC or CvE If Paladins are are the tatical generals, and War mages are just artility pieaces, then Barbarians are closer the special forces (espially as they go up the ability ladder) then to grunts whos only role is to get in there and slug it out. >>
And barbarians as a point of guild pride themselves on doing their special stuff with their own natural muscle, mind, and steel; not with the aid of magical trinkets. If you want magical trinkets, then I dont see any argument to you guys having additional magical resistances. If you guys want access to those trinkets and devices so freely come be a basic NMU guild with basic NMU resistance;) Was I you guys of course, I would cling to my BMR for dear life.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>Fact is your actively utilizing a magical device to give you a rather sizable combat benefit.
JUST LIKE YOU CAN DO.
>>And barbarians as a point of guild pride themselves on doing their special stuff with their own natural muscle, mind, and steel; not with the aid of magical trinkets.
EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. MY MOMMY SAYS I AM SPECIAL. You sit here and say we cannot argue from a CvC standpoint when (IF THAT IS THE CASE) I say to you, what does it matter if I can use a polo cloak? What possible effect does that have on you?
And whether or not there is strong magical element running through it doesn't mean I must know magic to wield it. The device is as simple as swinging a blessed sword or using a gweth.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
JUST LIKE YOU CAN DO.
>>And barbarians as a point of guild pride themselves on doing their special stuff with their own natural muscle, mind, and steel; not with the aid of magical trinkets.
EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. MY MOMMY SAYS I AM SPECIAL. You sit here and say we cannot argue from a CvC standpoint when (IF THAT IS THE CASE) I say to you, what does it matter if I can use a polo cloak? What possible effect does that have on you?
And whether or not there is strong magical element running through it doesn't mean I must know magic to wield it. The device is as simple as swinging a blessed sword or using a gweth.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
