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<<I guess having a 65th barbarian doesn't speak either.. or a 86th moonmage :( I'm not really bais to any guild specifically becuase i'd benifit in some way from most things. It was a suggestion to make it more balance for NMU and barbs without being insanely scaled.>>
Ok, you need to take a break, you have 3 characters 20+ circles higher than my one! :/
<<People keep talking about this immunity or insane imbalance... who exactly in prime are you unable to cast at all against?>>
I was sparring this guy the other day, (I think 3 times) I am 45th circle....but I am hugely overtrained...(lets just say I am closing in on 10,000 overall ranks) But anyway, the guy could nail me with spells like ice patch (fall down stunned etc) After the third fight we shared our circles and I was very surprised he was 40th....I was expecting something around 50th to be honest. So I guess BMR grows with circle or what? I always heard overall stats which mine are way above what they should be.??
I was sparring this guy the other day, (I think 3 times) I am 45th circle....but I am hugely overtrained...(lets just say I am closing in on 10,000 overall ranks) But anyway, the guy could nail me with spells like ice patch (fall down stunned etc) After the third fight we shared our circles and I was very surprised he was 40th....I was expecting something around 50th to be honest. So I guess BMR grows with circle or what? I always heard overall stats which mine are way above what they should be.??
> People keep talking about this immunity or insane imbalance... who exactly in prime are you unable to cast at all against?
You yourself aren't very far away from hitting the earliest levels of immunity against beneficial spells. I would be very surprised if you don't start hitting that within the next 9-10 circles. It depends to some extent on how you choose to spend your TDPs, so some folks will get there sooner than others, but you'll get there, and probably fairly soon now.
Here's the results of a capped Shadows vs two existing Prime barbarians (well, exact copies, anyway) by a spellcaster of higher circle and overall skill:
>prep shadow 60
You utter a few harsh words in a guttural tongue!
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast dart
You gesture at Dartenian.
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, causing the spell pattern to collapse at the last moment.
That was a fully capped and fully prepped spell.
Another example from a different mage, also higher circle and higher overall skill than the barb copies:
> prep es 66
You utter a few harsh words in a guttural tongue!
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast dart
You gesture at Dartenian.
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, causing the spell pattern to collapse at the last moment.
Because of how MR is calculated, the higher you get, the faster your MR leaps upward. There comes a point where it escalates far faster than magic can keep up with, and you are getting very close to that point. When both MR and magic hit their maximum potential, BMR is immunity to (at least as of today) all live spells.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
You yourself aren't very far away from hitting the earliest levels of immunity against beneficial spells. I would be very surprised if you don't start hitting that within the next 9-10 circles. It depends to some extent on how you choose to spend your TDPs, so some folks will get there sooner than others, but you'll get there, and probably fairly soon now.
Here's the results of a capped Shadows vs two existing Prime barbarians (well, exact copies, anyway) by a spellcaster of higher circle and overall skill:
>prep shadow 60
You utter a few harsh words in a guttural tongue!
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast dart
You gesture at Dartenian.
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, causing the spell pattern to collapse at the last moment.
That was a fully capped and fully prepped spell.
Another example from a different mage, also higher circle and higher overall skill than the barb copies:
> prep es 66
You utter a few harsh words in a guttural tongue!
You feel fully prepared to cast your spell.
>cast dart
You gesture at Dartenian.
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, causing the spell pattern to collapse at the last moment.
Because of how MR is calculated, the higher you get, the faster your MR leaps upward. There comes a point where it escalates far faster than magic can keep up with, and you are getting very close to that point. When both MR and magic hit their maximum potential, BMR is immunity to (at least as of today) all live spells.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
> To my knowledge BMR does not effect ice patch
BMR affects all spells.
Circle is irrelevant, and it's not a stat vs stat contest, so stats don't matter in the sense of "my stats were better than his" -- which is, I think, one of the bigger flaws of the current system. Not necessarily stat vs stat, but the fact that the two sides have entirely different and complete unrelated scales involved. I'll make this simple:
Magic Resistance is based strictly on stats, and involves the multiplication of stats. This means that the higher your stats get, the faster your MR rises.
The ability to overcome resistance is a function of skill, spell difficulty, and general category of spell (beneficial is easier to resist, for example).
In short, we have two entirely unrelated sets of criteria involved that both start and grow at entirely different rates. As a result, making it a balanced system at all levels isn't realistically going to happen. This is compounded by the fact that BMR is almost always well over twice as strong as base MR (as in always well over twice as strong unless the barb is completely out of IF). This in turn makes base MR completely useless if we are trying to keep magic balanced with BMR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
BMR affects all spells.
Circle is irrelevant, and it's not a stat vs stat contest, so stats don't matter in the sense of "my stats were better than his" -- which is, I think, one of the bigger flaws of the current system. Not necessarily stat vs stat, but the fact that the two sides have entirely different and complete unrelated scales involved. I'll make this simple:
Magic Resistance is based strictly on stats, and involves the multiplication of stats. This means that the higher your stats get, the faster your MR rises.
The ability to overcome resistance is a function of skill, spell difficulty, and general category of spell (beneficial is easier to resist, for example).
In short, we have two entirely unrelated sets of criteria involved that both start and grow at entirely different rates. As a result, making it a balanced system at all levels isn't realistically going to happen. This is compounded by the fact that BMR is almost always well over twice as strong as base MR (as in always well over twice as strong unless the barb is completely out of IF). This in turn makes base MR completely useless if we are trying to keep magic balanced with BMR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Please tell me how being immune to beneficial spells is going to get us nerfed on another point? Make some copies of me, i get smacked by magic all day long.
I think Galren hit it on the head, while it may be happening in tf now, or maybe by one or two people in prime, most of the time, in my experience, this is a non issue, please make the inbetween comprable.
______________________________________
You throw your juggling pins precisely at Captain Tevel's chest, hitting it with a decent strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
The Captain Tevel is already very dead.
I think Galren hit it on the head, while it may be happening in tf now, or maybe by one or two people in prime, most of the time, in my experience, this is a non issue, please make the inbetween comprable.
______________________________________
You throw your juggling pins precisely at Captain Tevel's chest, hitting it with a decent strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
The Captain Tevel is already very dead.
> Wow I didn't think I was anywhere close to that kinda resistance. Interesting. Thanks Dart.
There's still plenty of variables on both sides, but you are definitely getting to the point where your BMR is going to start escalating at a rapid rate. It'll get harder and harder for magic to keep on from here on out, especially low difficulty beneficial spells. Since the skill of the caster is a factor, someone who has a lot more skill than you do is still going to be able to pull it off for a while until you hit the point (which you eventually will) where even 2000 ranks in all magic skills won't be enough to overcome BMR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
There's still plenty of variables on both sides, but you are definitely getting to the point where your BMR is going to start escalating at a rapid rate. It'll get harder and harder for magic to keep on from here on out, especially low difficulty beneficial spells. Since the skill of the caster is a factor, someone who has a lot more skill than you do is still going to be able to pull it off for a while until you hit the point (which you eventually will) where even 2000 ranks in all magic skills won't be enough to overcome BMR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>>3) The situation that made MR necessary no longer exists. MR was designed into the system when part of contested spell defense was PM skill. NMUs couldn't easily train TM (Traders, Thieves) or couldn't train it at all (Barbs). MR comphensated for that. It got carried through the system but seems redundant now. It might be worth reconsidering the concept entirely.
Not this again. If BMR is going away then I should be able to use CJs, plain and simple.
A few overall suggestions, keeping in mind of course we're completely ignoring MR theory for the moment:
1) BMR should not interact with group magic. Barbarians are often forced to exit a group for Courage and MaPP and such and it's a pain in the butt. Ideally BMR would not negate the strength of group-cast beneficial spells for others, and likewise the Barbarian wouldn't get a spell cast on them unless specifically directed at them.
2) BMR and IF have always been closely linked and I dislike the idea of BMR somehow being "depleted" regardless of my IF state. I think perhaps the best solution would be to allow base MR to be valuable enough to consider, make BMR scale reasonably higher, and then offer rather generous MR bonuses with dances/berserks (e.g., don't separate BMR and normal MR too greatly). That way a Barbarian's magic resistance would best be represented not just by their presence of IF but by their control of it through dances and berserks.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
Not this again. If BMR is going away then I should be able to use CJs, plain and simple.
A few overall suggestions, keeping in mind of course we're completely ignoring MR theory for the moment:
1) BMR should not interact with group magic. Barbarians are often forced to exit a group for Courage and MaPP and such and it's a pain in the butt. Ideally BMR would not negate the strength of group-cast beneficial spells for others, and likewise the Barbarian wouldn't get a spell cast on them unless specifically directed at them.
2) BMR and IF have always been closely linked and I dislike the idea of BMR somehow being "depleted" regardless of my IF state. I think perhaps the best solution would be to allow base MR to be valuable enough to consider, make BMR scale reasonably higher, and then offer rather generous MR bonuses with dances/berserks (e.g., don't separate BMR and normal MR too greatly). That way a Barbarian's magic resistance would best be represented not just by their presence of IF but by their control of it through dances and berserks.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
Or just state that magic ranks won't hurt us...ever. And I'll gladly go out and buy me one of those blowie crystals and be using CJ's in the next couple weeks and will gladly couple CJ ranks with Dragon.
___
~Ternith Sjomah
Ternith says, "Serzyn."
Serzyn glances at Ternith.
Serzyn says, "Well, at least someone here knows who I am."
___
~Ternith Sjomah
Ternith says, "Serzyn."
Serzyn glances at Ternith.
Serzyn says, "Well, at least someone here knows who I am."
>Since the skill of the caster is a factor, someone who has a lot more skill than you do is still going to be able to pull it off for a while until you hit the point (which you eventually will) where even 2000 ranks in all magic skills won't be enough to overcome BMR.
Just bear in mind when you do make the changes what was said elsewhere in this threat... BMR and magic change on different scales. It's a lot easier to train magic, even on the high end (I do have experience doing so) than it is to keep advancing as a barb in prime. I'm not going to talk about TF because I really have no point of reference.
But there comes then a fundamental question... if a mage and a barb of exactly equal power along their respective scales clash... should the magic work or be negated? If the answer is the magic works, what's the point of having BMR anyway?
Just bear in mind when you do make the changes what was said elsewhere in this threat... BMR and magic change on different scales. It's a lot easier to train magic, even on the high end (I do have experience doing so) than it is to keep advancing as a barb in prime. I'm not going to talk about TF because I really have no point of reference.
But there comes then a fundamental question... if a mage and a barb of exactly equal power along their respective scales clash... should the magic work or be negated? If the answer is the magic works, what's the point of having BMR anyway?
>>But there comes then a fundamental question... if a mage and a barb of exactly equal power along their respective scales clash... should the magic work or be negated? If the answer is the magic works, what's the point of having BMR anyway?
Immunity or near-total defeat of magic should mean the Barbarian is significantly higher. At-level, a mage's magic should be hindered enough to make a difference but should most certainly succeed.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
Immunity or near-total defeat of magic should mean the Barbarian is significantly higher. At-level, a mage's magic should be hindered enough to make a difference but should most certainly succeed.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
I personally don't think magic should be negated at ALL unless there is at least a huge skill difference/ circle difference. Can't target is fine with me. Simply put at the end of the day it should come down to 2000 TM against 2000 Evasion and SHIELD to ultimately win the combat not you cannot use any magic on me at all.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
<< don't quite understand why MR/BMR would be treated as a "debuff" for purposes of global caps
<<Because it directly lowers someone else's skill, TM in this case.
So is this part of how BMR works not going to change, or is the manner in which it works being reconsidered as well as how it is calculated?
~Bractos
<<Because it directly lowers someone else's skill, TM in this case.
So is this part of how BMR works not going to change, or is the manner in which it works being reconsidered as well as how it is calculated?
~Bractos
>Immunity or near-total defeat of magic should mean the Barbarian is significantly higher. At-level, a mage's magic should be hindered enough to make a difference but should most certainly succeed.
But what qualifies "a difference"? It sounded like one of the changes will be making the move away from BMR making it harder to target. So is it simply less damage if a dragon's breath hits you? If it's a contested spell, again if all things are equal and magic wins, what's the point of BMR?
Philosophically, I have always believed that the purpose of BMR as a characteristic of the guild is... if all things are equal, the barb should be immune. If the mage is higher, it should be hindered to lessen the effect. By higher or lower I'm not talking about any one skill. Again a hypothetical on respective scales.
Again my concern is that magic has some tremendous advantages. Certain stacks. Cj's. Having other magic guilds able to contribute their boosters to you (battle cries aren't even a close comparison). Much, much easier trainability. And it's easier to circle. No this is not supposed to be a gvg issue but if you look at raw requirements, the way in which they can be attained, and take into account as evidence how many mages are above 100th than there are barbs over 100th... eventually coincidences break down.
I do think BMR needs adjusting... my fears are how far lodged in certain things not being taken into thought while it's being done.
But what qualifies "a difference"? It sounded like one of the changes will be making the move away from BMR making it harder to target. So is it simply less damage if a dragon's breath hits you? If it's a contested spell, again if all things are equal and magic wins, what's the point of BMR?
Philosophically, I have always believed that the purpose of BMR as a characteristic of the guild is... if all things are equal, the barb should be immune. If the mage is higher, it should be hindered to lessen the effect. By higher or lower I'm not talking about any one skill. Again a hypothetical on respective scales.
Again my concern is that magic has some tremendous advantages. Certain stacks. Cj's. Having other magic guilds able to contribute their boosters to you (battle cries aren't even a close comparison). Much, much easier trainability. And it's easier to circle. No this is not supposed to be a gvg issue but if you look at raw requirements, the way in which they can be attained, and take into account as evidence how many mages are above 100th than there are barbs over 100th... eventually coincidences break down.
I do think BMR needs adjusting... my fears are how far lodged in certain things not being taken into thought while it's being done.
>>For once I'd like to avoid the hyperbole that is TF and talk about Prime. Is anyone in my guild totally immune from magic? If so, please speak up.
Most of the hyperbole thrown around about TF is worthless anyways. I've been afk scripting basically nonstop since I hit 150th like 2+ years ago (hell I can't even remember when), so I consider myself at least a 170th character in stats (200th+ in skills) and I still drop like a log when anyone casts FRB/MB. In fact, my 100th mm I trained for 6 months could MB me at 150th for awhile. Most of the testing done by wm's/mm's against me was truthfully awhile ago and I was immune to their TM spells (CL, DB, PW, DO), but before the buffs from dragon we're talking 200+ rank discrepancies between their TM and my evasion.
If I berserk out of a dance I've died from MM's with far far less TM than my evasion (re 800 tm vs my 1200 evasion) when I was NOT under the influence of MB.
For what its worth,
Strength : 70 Reflex : 90
Agility : 70 Charisma : 83
Discipline : 90 Wisdom : 50
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 70
Concentration: 445 Max: 445
Raging in TF
Most of the hyperbole thrown around about TF is worthless anyways. I've been afk scripting basically nonstop since I hit 150th like 2+ years ago (hell I can't even remember when), so I consider myself at least a 170th character in stats (200th+ in skills) and I still drop like a log when anyone casts FRB/MB. In fact, my 100th mm I trained for 6 months could MB me at 150th for awhile. Most of the testing done by wm's/mm's against me was truthfully awhile ago and I was immune to their TM spells (CL, DB, PW, DO), but before the buffs from dragon we're talking 200+ rank discrepancies between their TM and my evasion.
If I berserk out of a dance I've died from MM's with far far less TM than my evasion (re 800 tm vs my 1200 evasion) when I was NOT under the influence of MB.
For what its worth,
Strength : 70 Reflex : 90
Agility : 70 Charisma : 83
Discipline : 90 Wisdom : 50
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 70
Concentration: 445 Max: 445
Raging in TF
>Most of the hyperbole thrown around about TF is worthless anyways. I've been afk scripting basically nonstop since I hit 150th like 2+ years ago (hell I can't even remember when), so I consider myself at least a 170th character in stats (200th+ in skills) and I still drop like a log when anyone casts FRB/MB.
You keep saying this, but it just isn't true. When you're dancing, I want to see someone MB you. Better yet, I want to see someone hit you with any targeted spell. It isn't about ranks when GMs have gone on record as saying a dancing barb at 150th can reduce 2000 ranks in magic to 0.
I know you don't want them to touch BMR, but honestly, things need to change. I'm not necessarily saying I should be able to kill you yet, as I've just barely hit 150th, but you shouldn't be completely immune to spells from people with 1500s in magic skills.
As far as FRB, I'll agree that that spell is seriously overpowered (one of the big reasons I wont he n00b tournament), MB too when you consider the second cast is basically going to sleep you every time. But that's really a different issue.
Also, why would you berserk out of a stun when you're immune just lying there since your BMR reduces TM so much?
You keep saying this, but it just isn't true. When you're dancing, I want to see someone MB you. Better yet, I want to see someone hit you with any targeted spell. It isn't about ranks when GMs have gone on record as saying a dancing barb at 150th can reduce 2000 ranks in magic to 0.
I know you don't want them to touch BMR, but honestly, things need to change. I'm not necessarily saying I should be able to kill you yet, as I've just barely hit 150th, but you shouldn't be completely immune to spells from people with 1500s in magic skills.
As far as FRB, I'll agree that that spell is seriously overpowered (one of the big reasons I wont he n00b tournament), MB too when you consider the second cast is basically going to sleep you every time. But that's really a different issue.
Also, why would you berserk out of a stun when you're immune just lying there since your BMR reduces TM so much?
>>if all things are equal, the barb should be immune.
While I could agree with you in philosophy, for game design purposes this simply isn't feasible.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
While I could agree with you in philosophy, for game design purposes this simply isn't feasible.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
>>As far as FRB, I'll agree that that spell is seriously overpowered (one of the big reasons I wont he n00b tournament), MB too when you consider the second cast is basically going to sleep you every time. But that's really a different issue.
Yeah, I was just about to say... if BMR is crazy at his level and both FRB and MB are able to cut through it like a hacksaw through a wet noodle, then more than one thing is messed up. I don't know much about FRB since its recent nerf, but I do know MB on the second cast with chain stuns is just nuts.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Yeah, I was just about to say... if BMR is crazy at his level and both FRB and MB are able to cut through it like a hacksaw through a wet noodle, then more than one thing is messed up. I don't know much about FRB since its recent nerf, but I do know MB on the second cast with chain stuns is just nuts.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
> if a mage and a barb of exactly equal power along their respective scales clash... should the magic work or be negated? If the answer is the magic works, what's the point of having BMR anyway?
Here's the crux of the matter -- are we talking about magic resistance, or magic immunity? Resistance doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. It's very possible to make it so resistance means the spell's power is cut by 10, 20, 50, 90%. Or to use your own example, if a mage and barb of exactly equal power clash, what's the point of having magic if it cannot be used? I think we need to quit thinking of MR in terms of absolutes (all or nothing), and consider that maybe there are states in-between somewhere that can be made viable. There's no way down the "all or nothing" road that's going to not be totally unfair to one side or the other, all else being equal.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Here's the crux of the matter -- are we talking about magic resistance, or magic immunity? Resistance doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. It's very possible to make it so resistance means the spell's power is cut by 10, 20, 50, 90%. Or to use your own example, if a mage and barb of exactly equal power clash, what's the point of having magic if it cannot be used? I think we need to quit thinking of MR in terms of absolutes (all or nothing), and consider that maybe there are states in-between somewhere that can be made viable. There's no way down the "all or nothing" road that's going to not be totally unfair to one side or the other, all else being equal.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
> Please tell me how being immune to beneficial spells is going to get us nerfed on another point?
That's just where it STARTS. Due to how the calcs scale, BMR will eventually become immunity to all spells.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
That's just where it STARTS. Due to how the calcs scale, BMR will eventually become immunity to all spells.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>Yeah, I was just about to say... if BMR is crazy at his level and both FRB and MB are able to cut through it like a hacksaw through a wet noodle, then more than one thing is messed up. I don't know much about FRB since its recent nerf, but I do know MB on the second cast with chain stuns is just nuts.
I don't know anyone that can MB him while he's dancing. Yachy can't, and he has 99 discipline and 1500s PM. MB is overpowered aside from the BMR issue, that was my point.
Also, the bigger issue with BMR is the TM reduction.
I don't know anyone that can MB him while he's dancing. Yachy can't, and he has 99 discipline and 1500s PM. MB is overpowered aside from the BMR issue, that was my point.
Also, the bigger issue with BMR is the TM reduction.
> So is this part of how BMR works not going to change, or is the manner in which it works being reconsidered as well as how it is calculated?
Since it violates the caps, yes, it will change. The penalty to the TM skill will be bound by the caps, as it should have been all along. People are outraged at how powerful Watch is...and that has nothing on BMR vs TM. BMR can reduce 2000 ranks of skill down to 1 rank. That's a bit...excessive. Especially considering the original goal was for TM spells to be the least impacted by MR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Since it violates the caps, yes, it will change. The penalty to the TM skill will be bound by the caps, as it should have been all along. People are outraged at how powerful Watch is...and that has nothing on BMR vs TM. BMR can reduce 2000 ranks of skill down to 1 rank. That's a bit...excessive. Especially considering the original goal was for TM spells to be the least impacted by MR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
I do agree that something needs to be done about BMR scaling, and I trust that Ssra and Dartenian will make things relatively fair insofar as X ranks of magic at Y stats vs barb at Z stats bolstered by BMR.
However, I think it also needs to be taken into account the relative ease of the mage attaining those X ranks of magic. In addition, I hope the inherent tdp advantage of mages will be considered when rewriting BMR. Barbarians operate under an inherent tdp disadvantage compared with mages training in a similar fashion, simply due to the lack of an entire skillset.
If you take a mage at X circle against a barb at X circle, assuming "normal" magic for the mage and "normal" stats and BMR for the barb, and allow the mage to affect the barb with magic, the contest isn't really fair at all. The mages circle more easily (as pointed out in the reality of 100+ characters in the barb vs. mage guilds).
Juulmon
However, I think it also needs to be taken into account the relative ease of the mage attaining those X ranks of magic. In addition, I hope the inherent tdp advantage of mages will be considered when rewriting BMR. Barbarians operate under an inherent tdp disadvantage compared with mages training in a similar fashion, simply due to the lack of an entire skillset.
If you take a mage at X circle against a barb at X circle, assuming "normal" magic for the mage and "normal" stats and BMR for the barb, and allow the mage to affect the barb with magic, the contest isn't really fair at all. The mages circle more easily (as pointed out in the reality of 100+ characters in the barb vs. mage guilds).
Juulmon
>In addition, I hope the inherent tdp advantage of mages will be considered when rewriting BMR. Barbarians operate under an inherent tdp disadvantage compared with mages training in a similar fashion, simply due to the lack of an entire skillset.
This more than disappears when you consider how many stats your dances boost.
This more than disappears when you consider how many stats your dances boost.
>>However, I think it also needs to be taken into account the relative ease of the mage attaining those X ranks of magic. In addition, I hope the inherent tdp advantage of mages will be considered when rewriting BMR. Barbarians operate under an inherent tdp disadvantage compared with mages training in a similar fashion, simply due to the lack of an entire skillset.
You are right, Barbarians have a disadvantage when it comes to TDP, except that GM after GM have stated that there is no large difference in TDPs across guild lines. I doubt that if Barbarians, Traders and/or Thieves were given spells that even 1 in 20 would use them. Magic would be worthless to any of the three with the possible exception of Traders because they are both magic and weapon tert.
>>If you take a mage at X circle against a barb at X circle, assuming "normal" magic for the mage and "normal" stats and BMR for the barb, and allow the mage to affect the barb with magic, the contest isn't really fair at all. The mages circle more easily (as pointed out in the reality of 100+ characters in the barb vs. mage guilds).
What are "normal" stats? The problem is that several players seem to think that the highest possible current effect is the minimum level of success for resistance. The other problem is that this "minimum" level of success is one of the reasons that it is getting tweeked and it would be pointless to leave the problem in when a system is rewritten.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You are right, Barbarians have a disadvantage when it comes to TDP, except that GM after GM have stated that there is no large difference in TDPs across guild lines. I doubt that if Barbarians, Traders and/or Thieves were given spells that even 1 in 20 would use them. Magic would be worthless to any of the three with the possible exception of Traders because they are both magic and weapon tert.
>>If you take a mage at X circle against a barb at X circle, assuming "normal" magic for the mage and "normal" stats and BMR for the barb, and allow the mage to affect the barb with magic, the contest isn't really fair at all. The mages circle more easily (as pointed out in the reality of 100+ characters in the barb vs. mage guilds).
What are "normal" stats? The problem is that several players seem to think that the highest possible current effect is the minimum level of success for resistance. The other problem is that this "minimum" level of success is one of the reasons that it is getting tweeked and it would be pointless to leave the problem in when a system is rewritten.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>>I know you don't want them to touch BMR, but honestly, things need to change. I'm not necessarily saying I should be able to kill you yet, as I've just barely hit 150th, but you shouldn't be completely immune to spells from people with 1500s in magic skills.
I never said I don't want them to touch BMR. I want it balanced. In my many years of DR when abilities are declared to be under review and the guild has no Guru its means a nerf that swings things in the totally opposite way which is just not acceptable
I already told you once, for all I care remove BMR all together just make a rank in TM equal to a rank in ranged. While you're at, make MB a TM spell, redo FRB so the stat contest is actually contestable and remove teaching TM. Unfortunately none of these things will happen before the BMR rewrite or in my career in DR ends.
>>Also, why would you berserk out of a stun when you're immune just lying there since your BMR reduces TM so much?
Whats the alternative? Lie there and be MB'd over and over? I prefer to take a risk and try to get a shot off. I have plenty of logs with that risk paying off.
>>That's just where it STARTS. Due to how the calcs scale, BMR will eventually become immunity to all spells.
I keep seeing this posted by DARTENIAN but I don't see it on my end. It may be true from the numbers he looks at but in my world its just not evident and I'm pretty sure I'm the guy he's referring to.
>>I don't know anyone that can MB him while he's dancing. Yachy can't, and he has 99 discipline and 1500s PM. MB is overpowered aside from the BMR issue, that was my point.
Want a list? Last time I checked Xentago/Yachy (under his old owner)/and Macross could all MB and sleep me. There's no other MM's in my category and even all of these guys have been recycled throughout many owners. As I said before, my 100th mm could MB me when I first hit 150th. For the record, I spent about 8 months training that guy in that cakewalk of a guild.
I never said I don't want them to touch BMR. I want it balanced. In my many years of DR when abilities are declared to be under review and the guild has no Guru its means a nerf that swings things in the totally opposite way which is just not acceptable
I already told you once, for all I care remove BMR all together just make a rank in TM equal to a rank in ranged. While you're at, make MB a TM spell, redo FRB so the stat contest is actually contestable and remove teaching TM. Unfortunately none of these things will happen before the BMR rewrite or in my career in DR ends.
>>Also, why would you berserk out of a stun when you're immune just lying there since your BMR reduces TM so much?
Whats the alternative? Lie there and be MB'd over and over? I prefer to take a risk and try to get a shot off. I have plenty of logs with that risk paying off.
>>That's just where it STARTS. Due to how the calcs scale, BMR will eventually become immunity to all spells.
I keep seeing this posted by DARTENIAN but I don't see it on my end. It may be true from the numbers he looks at but in my world its just not evident and I'm pretty sure I'm the guy he's referring to.
>>I don't know anyone that can MB him while he's dancing. Yachy can't, and he has 99 discipline and 1500s PM. MB is overpowered aside from the BMR issue, that was my point.
Want a list? Last time I checked Xentago/Yachy (under his old owner)/and Macross could all MB and sleep me. There's no other MM's in my category and even all of these guys have been recycled throughout many owners. As I said before, my 100th mm could MB me when I first hit 150th. For the record, I spent about 8 months training that guy in that cakewalk of a guild.
>>You are right, Barbarians have a disadvantage when it comes to TDP, except that GM after GM have stated that there is no large difference in TDPs across guild lines.
A warmage in TF who has spent equal time training as I have as about 12000 more tdps from ranks than I did last time we checked.
A warmage in TF who has spent equal time training as I have as about 12000 more tdps from ranks than I did last time we checked.
I think Juulmon addressed any concerns I might have with this BMR change. I agree that something should be done so its not a startrek forcefield but be sure to put a lot of careful considerations into how its going to scale in a balanced matter. It is a lot easier to rack up 800 ranks of TM than it is to become an extremely well rounded barbarian that has the TDPs to throw into BMR. It takes a lot more than just training the minimal requirements per circle to have the kind of BMR thats generating this need for a change in the first place. I'm just worried the scales will be tipped too far because of a few very well trained barbarians.
Addressing 'nice skills'...I don't think barbarians should ever be encouraged to use spell boosts and I wouldn't mind it if there were some sort of penalty for this, so long as this doesn't create a niche for abuse. An easy way to cripple a barbarian shouldn't be casting CV on them ten times. There are some times where barbarians are going to have to interact with magic, such as being raised or uncursed and I don't think we should be penalized for that sort of necessity (not that I was afraid it would be, but this a good time to be laying all the cards out).
Also: Thanks for the IF change <3 Its a huge relief that my IF won't go into the negative because I was standing in the wrong room at the wrong time.
Phii Phy Pho Phum
www.phiiskeep.homestead.com
Addressing 'nice skills'...I don't think barbarians should ever be encouraged to use spell boosts and I wouldn't mind it if there were some sort of penalty for this, so long as this doesn't create a niche for abuse. An easy way to cripple a barbarian shouldn't be casting CV on them ten times. There are some times where barbarians are going to have to interact with magic, such as being raised or uncursed and I don't think we should be penalized for that sort of necessity (not that I was afraid it would be, but this a good time to be laying all the cards out).
Also: Thanks for the IF change <3 Its a huge relief that my IF won't go into the negative because I was standing in the wrong room at the wrong time.
Phii Phy Pho Phum
www.phiiskeep.homestead.com
> if BMR is crazy at his level and both FRB and MB are able to cut through it like a hacksaw through a wet noodle
Just curious...what are your stats? Circle and skill are irrelevant in Magic Resistance.
Just for the record, AOE attack spells are by far the hardest to resist, so you aren't going to see any serious reduction on those until you hit very high stat ranges. That's the one class of magic that actually doesn't become full immunity, although it does get drastically hammered in effectiveness. Well, two classes. TM spells aren't supposed to be reduced by MR at all, only the accuracy. But that's an entirely different issue.
I did some tests, and with a capped out mage vs a capped out barbarian, capped MB was ineffective. FRB actually was getting through, which wasn't surprising. What was surprising was how much damage it was doing even at drastically reduced capacity. I checked the spell itself, and I see why. We'll be looking into it. The fatigue hit can get...excessive. And by excessive I mean WOW! excessive.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Just curious...what are your stats? Circle and skill are irrelevant in Magic Resistance.
Just for the record, AOE attack spells are by far the hardest to resist, so you aren't going to see any serious reduction on those until you hit very high stat ranges. That's the one class of magic that actually doesn't become full immunity, although it does get drastically hammered in effectiveness. Well, two classes. TM spells aren't supposed to be reduced by MR at all, only the accuracy. But that's an entirely different issue.
I did some tests, and with a capped out mage vs a capped out barbarian, capped MB was ineffective. FRB actually was getting through, which wasn't surprising. What was surprising was how much damage it was doing even at drastically reduced capacity. I checked the spell itself, and I see why. We'll be looking into it. The fatigue hit can get...excessive. And by excessive I mean WOW! excessive.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>>What was surprising was how much damage it was doing even at drastically reduced capacity. I checked the spell itself, and I see why. We'll be looking into it. The fatigue hit can get...excessive. And by excessive I mean WOW! excessive.
This alone makes any and all changes you may make to BMR completely fine by me.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
This alone makes any and all changes you may make to BMR completely fine by me.
*******
Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror.
>>Just curious...what are your stats? Circle and skill are irrelevant in Magic Resistance.
I just posted them but here goes again:
Strength : 70 Reflex : 90
Agility : 70 Charisma : 83
Discipline : 90 Wisdom : 50
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 70
I've been FRB'd by 104th circle wm's (no idea what their stats are) using the appropriate pathways with dragon up.
>>I did some tests, and with a capped out mage vs a capped out barbarian
Whats a "capped out" barb mean? GM semantics scare me. Is it a barb with 99 in all stats versus a moonmage with 99 in all stats? I have no idea.
>>FRB actually was getting through, which wasn't surprising. What was surprising was how much damage it was doing even at drastically reduced capacity. I checked the spell itself, and I see why. We'll be looking into it.
Welcome to Magic 2.0. Hasn't this been a known issue since the rewrite of frb?
I just posted them but here goes again:
Strength : 70 Reflex : 90
Agility : 70 Charisma : 83
Discipline : 90 Wisdom : 50
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 70
I've been FRB'd by 104th circle wm's (no idea what their stats are) using the appropriate pathways with dragon up.
>>I did some tests, and with a capped out mage vs a capped out barbarian
Whats a "capped out" barb mean? GM semantics scare me. Is it a barb with 99 in all stats versus a moonmage with 99 in all stats? I have no idea.
>>FRB actually was getting through, which wasn't surprising. What was surprising was how much damage it was doing even at drastically reduced capacity. I checked the spell itself, and I see why. We'll be looking into it.
Welcome to Magic 2.0. Hasn't this been a known issue since the rewrite of frb?
> Whats a "capped out" barb mean? GM semantics scare me. Is it a barb with 99 in all stats versus a moonmage with 99 in all stats? I have no idea.
Maxed stats, maxed skills in both cases. In short, can't go no higher in anything.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Maxed stats, maxed skills in both cases. In short, can't go no higher in anything.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>>No offense, but thats not a realistic comparison to make even in TF. What barb will ever match mentals with a moonmage?
Curious, but are you suggesting that they create principles based on the probability that a Barbarian might fail to train his/her mental attributes to the same extend of a member of another guild? I don't think that would be a very fair thing to do, otherwise the same thing could be reverse engineered in regards to Barbarians having higher weapon skills than other guilds.
__
We are still discussing options and we are still trying to find the best plan we can that will not bring about the end of the world as we all know it. Well, that isn't necessarily accurate. The world as you know it will end.
Curious, but are you suggesting that they create principles based on the probability that a Barbarian might fail to train his/her mental attributes to the same extend of a member of another guild? I don't think that would be a very fair thing to do, otherwise the same thing could be reverse engineered in regards to Barbarians having higher weapon skills than other guilds.
__
We are still discussing options and we are still trying to find the best plan we can that will not bring about the end of the world as we all know it. Well, that isn't necessarily accurate. The world as you know it will end.
>>Just curious...what are your stats? Circle and skill are irrelevant in Magic Resistance.
Strength : 30 Reflex : 41
Agility : 40 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 31 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 30 Stamina : 30
There's my stats. For me, the problem usually isn't the initial cast of MB, but the stun it causes makes the following casts easier to succeed. With the exception of berserking, someone can literally be locked in a stun from MB for a long time.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Strength : 30 Reflex : 41
Agility : 40 Charisma : 40
Discipline : 31 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 30 Stamina : 30
There's my stats. For me, the problem usually isn't the initial cast of MB, but the stun it causes makes the following casts easier to succeed. With the exception of berserking, someone can literally be locked in a stun from MB for a long time.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>Curious, but are you suggesting that they create principles based on the probability that a Barbarian might fail to train his/her mental attributes to the same extend of a member of another guild? I don't think that would be a very fair thing to do, otherwise the same thing could be reverse engineered in regards to Barbarians having higher weapon skills than other guilds.
My point was a barbarian that can match a moonmage with equal mental stats in 99% of cases will far far outSKILL and outSTAT the moonmage overall (IE my mental stats at 150th might compare to a 120th moonmage- Is there anyone out there that actually thinks a tie in mental stats shouldnt go in my favor in this case?)
My point was a barbarian that can match a moonmage with equal mental stats in 99% of cases will far far outSKILL and outSTAT the moonmage overall (IE my mental stats at 150th might compare to a 120th moonmage- Is there anyone out there that actually thinks a tie in mental stats shouldnt go in my favor in this case?)
> Barbarians operate under an inherent tdp disadvantage compared with mages training in a similar fashion, simply due to the lack of an entire skillset.
Let's please not go down this road again. Lacking 5 skills in a tert skillset isn't going to make a dent in your TDP situation. If anything, it's going to make things better, since you won't be wasting time training tert skills when you could be training primary or secondary skills that gain TDPs far faster.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Let's please not go down this road again. Lacking 5 skills in a tert skillset isn't going to make a dent in your TDP situation. If anything, it's going to make things better, since you won't be wasting time training tert skills when you could be training primary or secondary skills that gain TDPs far faster.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
