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OK! This is getting out of hand.
This is a Barbarian folder. Not the TDP folder. Not a skill folder. Not the who wields a bigger sword folder.
I'm really disappointed in the direction this had to take because I am looking for real feedback.
I get home from work to find 80 posts mostly made up of bickering. Any posts not related to Barbarians will be removed and TAC warned as necessary. If you want to talk about which guild sucks the most take it to a complaints folder.
-Ssra
"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind."
>OK! This is getting out of hand.
>This is a Barbarian folder. Not the TDP folder. Not a skill folder. Not the who wields a bigger sword folder.
>I'm really disappointed in the direction this had to take because I am looking for real feedback.
Srra, my point is that it's all related. You really can't separate these aspects and expect to come out with a realistic conclusion. We're talking about systems that relate to one another. BMR changes with training. Training is based on TDP's. The nature of their attainment is part of the nature of the game.
Take a moment to really consider. I am tempted to liken it to economics. If you only focus on one aspect while discarding the contributing factors, you're headed for a world of hurt and collapse.
Our objective is to come up with a cohesive strategy that takes the long term of the game into account, right? Well this is our chance to really look at the reality of the game and make it right.
>This is a Barbarian folder. Not the TDP folder. Not a skill folder. Not the who wields a bigger sword folder.
>I'm really disappointed in the direction this had to take because I am looking for real feedback.
Srra, my point is that it's all related. You really can't separate these aspects and expect to come out with a realistic conclusion. We're talking about systems that relate to one another. BMR changes with training. Training is based on TDP's. The nature of their attainment is part of the nature of the game.
Take a moment to really consider. I am tempted to liken it to economics. If you only focus on one aspect while discarding the contributing factors, you're headed for a world of hurt and collapse.
Our objective is to come up with a cohesive strategy that takes the long term of the game into account, right? Well this is our chance to really look at the reality of the game and make it right.
KUMI you are ambitious. That's cool. I like people who think big. Though, the reality is there will be no TDP system changes that stem from a BMR rewrite.
Let's stay on topic - BMR.
It's strange to me that anytime there is a serious discussion we often let one ancillary detail derail the entire discussion. If you would just stay on topic all the guild XYZ fanboys wouldn't have any leg to stand on.
-Ssra
"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind."
Let's stay on topic - BMR.
It's strange to me that anytime there is a serious discussion we often let one ancillary detail derail the entire discussion. If you would just stay on topic all the guild XYZ fanboys wouldn't have any leg to stand on.
-Ssra
"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind."
No no no... I was thinking about this the other way around.
I'm saying when BMR is rewritten, let's take into account all of the background factors that deal with magic and BMR. I'm not at all suggesting we look at the TDP system. I'm saying we look at the systems that contribute to the scales of one magic vs. the scales of BMR and make sure we project those out as they are in game, not just in code, for the benefit of not needing to revisit this in the future as things grow even more.
Edgee
I'm saying when BMR is rewritten, let's take into account all of the background factors that deal with magic and BMR. I'm not at all suggesting we look at the TDP system. I'm saying we look at the systems that contribute to the scales of one magic vs. the scales of BMR and make sure we project those out as they are in game, not just in code, for the benefit of not needing to revisit this in the future as things grow even more.
Edgee
Basically here are my suggestions. From what I know of Barbarians and would probably think would work for the system.
1) Have BMR be an ability that scales like a Khri you can put it up take it down and train certain stats that affect it. Leave it from being affected by Inner Fire totally since it effects too much of barb life already. (Meditate Resistance)
2) Add a considerable MR boost to all Dances/zerks at all levels that scale to ability to use the dance. Of course higher circle Dances/zerks will have higher maxium resistance bonus.
3) Could make BMR work off concentration, the more you resist spells it takes a direct concentration hit. Not sure all the bells an whistles behind how it would be calculated but I'd rather have a number I could look at that tells me how much of xyz i'm losing when hit with magic.
Basically what I've head is that BMR makes MR look pretty bad and its hard to scale in comparison. So i'm basically going off the principal of just giving Barbs a lot of resistance increasers and making there ONE MR system that barbs will have the upleg on.
Sorry for getting off topic.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
1) Have BMR be an ability that scales like a Khri you can put it up take it down and train certain stats that affect it. Leave it from being affected by Inner Fire totally since it effects too much of barb life already. (Meditate Resistance)
2) Add a considerable MR boost to all Dances/zerks at all levels that scale to ability to use the dance. Of course higher circle Dances/zerks will have higher maxium resistance bonus.
3) Could make BMR work off concentration, the more you resist spells it takes a direct concentration hit. Not sure all the bells an whistles behind how it would be calculated but I'd rather have a number I could look at that tells me how much of xyz i'm losing when hit with magic.
Basically what I've head is that BMR makes MR look pretty bad and its hard to scale in comparison. So i'm basically going off the principal of just giving Barbs a lot of resistance increasers and making there ONE MR system that barbs will have the upleg on.
Sorry for getting off topic.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
<<2) Add a considerable MR boost to all Dances/zerks at all levels that scale to ability to use the dance. Of course higher circle Dances/zerks will have higher maxium resistance bonus.
Different dances already have different multipliers associated with them, what you are asking is to make it twice as complex as it needs to be.
<<3) Could make BMR work off concentration, the more you resist spells it takes a direct concentration hit. Not sure all the bells an whistles behind how it would be calculated but I'd rather have a number I could look at that tells me how much of xyz i'm losing when hit with magic.
Now THAT seems like a totally workable suggestion, and it seems like something that would work very well with the new concentration system.
Different dances already have different multipliers associated with them, what you are asking is to make it twice as complex as it needs to be.
<<3) Could make BMR work off concentration, the more you resist spells it takes a direct concentration hit. Not sure all the bells an whistles behind how it would be calculated but I'd rather have a number I could look at that tells me how much of xyz i'm losing when hit with magic.
Now THAT seems like a totally workable suggestion, and it seems like something that would work very well with the new concentration system.
I think the problem with that would be we already have a lot of BMR boosters as it is. To strip down our base BMR would be quite painful for a lot of us.
I'd envision something like this
3* ))) 2)) 1) <-- incoming spell
1 represents Magic Users
2 Represents NMUs
3* Represents Barbarians
All spells run into this resistance. Our IF provides that extra base layer to set us apart from NMUs.
As an aside we can also push it slightly higher with dances and berserks. This will require adjusting and re-scaling on the part of dances I'm sure.
Think of our base BMR like your nature bonus or thief confidence. We have our base BMR - lets use an arbitrary number of 2.5 in this case. All incoming spells must contest this. In order to see maximum potential we would have some kind of confidence like scale.
Perhaps a Barbarian who has been out of combat, out of the hunt for days on end would find his resistance weakened to its base level. Those who hunt more often, kill more will find their natural resistance raise a bit.
This way its not totally free uber base resistance. We have to work to maintain it. Make the requirements similar to regaining IF - need to be learning a weapon so that I just don't go into goblins and one shot 30 of them and I'm good to go.
Idealistically Id like to see a way to gauge this. Perhaps, if so many folks keep pushing for an IF bar, we could see a modification in chakrel go give us a read out of our current resistance.
Just food for thought. As far as how to determine this base resistance for NMUs and barbarians - well that is where things get tricky. Dart stated that on the magic user side its based off his skills. Why not have it work similarly on our end with only a slight modification by stats?
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
I'd envision something like this
3* ))) 2)) 1) <-- incoming spell
1 represents Magic Users
2 Represents NMUs
3* Represents Barbarians
All spells run into this resistance. Our IF provides that extra base layer to set us apart from NMUs.
As an aside we can also push it slightly higher with dances and berserks. This will require adjusting and re-scaling on the part of dances I'm sure.
Think of our base BMR like your nature bonus or thief confidence. We have our base BMR - lets use an arbitrary number of 2.5 in this case. All incoming spells must contest this. In order to see maximum potential we would have some kind of confidence like scale.
Perhaps a Barbarian who has been out of combat, out of the hunt for days on end would find his resistance weakened to its base level. Those who hunt more often, kill more will find their natural resistance raise a bit.
This way its not totally free uber base resistance. We have to work to maintain it. Make the requirements similar to regaining IF - need to be learning a weapon so that I just don't go into goblins and one shot 30 of them and I'm good to go.
Idealistically Id like to see a way to gauge this. Perhaps, if so many folks keep pushing for an IF bar, we could see a modification in chakrel go give us a read out of our current resistance.
Just food for thought. As far as how to determine this base resistance for NMUs and barbarians - well that is where things get tricky. Dart stated that on the magic user side its based off his skills. Why not have it work similarly on our end with only a slight modification by stats?
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
>>Now THAT seems like a totally workable suggestion, and it seems like something that would work very well with the new concentration system.
I agree. I just can't wait until it's all done with. I'm at the point where if BMR disappeared entirely from the game then I feel like I would hardly notice, since my philosophy right now is, "Get hit and die. Not get hit and live."
Any ETA's on when it'll all be changed? 2008, or does it look like a 2009+ release?
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I agree. I just can't wait until it's all done with. I'm at the point where if BMR disappeared entirely from the game then I feel like I would hardly notice, since my philosophy right now is, "Get hit and die. Not get hit and live."
Any ETA's on when it'll all be changed? 2008, or does it look like a 2009+ release?
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
How about active and passive BMR for barbarians? For example, passive BMR represents the barb's natural inner fire resisting the incoming mana streams and disrupting the formation of targeting matrices. Active BMR represents a focused mental action on the part of the barb to further disrupt magic.
Passive BMR would interact with both beneficial and offensive magics. There would be no IF hit when using just passive BMR. Passive BMR cannot fully destroy a spell matrix, and is capped at reducing it by X amount. It grows with the barb and is affected by dances which can improve it by some %. Most magical devices can be used when under the effects of just passive BMR.
Active BMR is triggered by using a meditation. This greatly increases the barbarian's magic resistance to offensive magic, and can disrupt spells to the point of not working. Dances/Berserks can increase the duration of the meditation, but not its power. Magical devices will not operate when affected by active BMR - in fact all magical spells on the barb will be removed when this meditation takes place. Active BMR drains concentration slowly to function. Blocking incoming offensive magic attacks reduce the barbarian's concentration, and invoke a small IF hit.
So passive BMR is like the current BMR, but somewhat weaker and without IF hits. It cannot destroy spells. It has a cap. It is group friendly, and allows barbarians to use some magical devices as they currently do.
Active BMR is like taking WATCH and applying it to the guild. You choose when to supercharge, and to great effect. Anyways, its something to consider.
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
Passive BMR would interact with both beneficial and offensive magics. There would be no IF hit when using just passive BMR. Passive BMR cannot fully destroy a spell matrix, and is capped at reducing it by X amount. It grows with the barb and is affected by dances which can improve it by some %. Most magical devices can be used when under the effects of just passive BMR.
Active BMR is triggered by using a meditation. This greatly increases the barbarian's magic resistance to offensive magic, and can disrupt spells to the point of not working. Dances/Berserks can increase the duration of the meditation, but not its power. Magical devices will not operate when affected by active BMR - in fact all magical spells on the barb will be removed when this meditation takes place. Active BMR drains concentration slowly to function. Blocking incoming offensive magic attacks reduce the barbarian's concentration, and invoke a small IF hit.
So passive BMR is like the current BMR, but somewhat weaker and without IF hits. It cannot destroy spells. It has a cap. It is group friendly, and allows barbarians to use some magical devices as they currently do.
Active BMR is like taking WATCH and applying it to the guild. You choose when to supercharge, and to great effect. Anyways, its something to consider.
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
I'll weigh in and throw some opinions and some suggestions.
Bias Alert: As many barbarians know, I am rabidly anti-magic in game. I don't get rejuved (I instantly depart), I don't use gates, I don't use any magic that is not absolutely forced on me by others or the situation. I also personally feel that many magics are overpowered and/or magic guilds seem to get swiss army spells.
Opinion: I don't see why barbarians shouldn't have the option to be immune to magic, if they're really immune to magic. No gates, no gweths, no rejuv, no nothing. Make it an oath, clan, order, lodge, what have you as an option for non-standard barbarians.
I don't see why N/MR should be affected one bit by the nature of the spell, beneficial or non (excepting TM and AOE for obvious reasons). Last time I knew, N/MR didn't read minds or analyze whether that stream of magic heading for you is going to make you all happy and tingly, or blow your left arm off. It should resist all spell and targetting matrixes on or near you with the same efficiency. If they have some sort of different matrix, it's strains my personal credulity (I think that's a word) that some bright mage hasn't figured out how to make an offensive spell that fakes it.
Suggestion: Make Barbarian abilities based off a skill. Call it Inner Fire, call it Barbarism, call it Offensive Uses for Fruit Cake. Basically its the ability to channel Inner Fire towards useful things. It's trained and used by dances, roars, meditiations, berserks, and successful resisting of magic. Have a base BMR slightly above an NMU's MR that represents the unthinking natural repulsion of IF to mana, and then a bonus above it based on reflexive willful use.
Why?: They had this same problem with many spells, having stat vs. skill contests, which are inherintly unfair most of the time. This also gives Barbarians the choice of just how much effort they put into it, just like MUs. This may also resolve some issues with roars.... though that's another can of worms.
Possible Extension: If its based on a skill, then it would allow dances to be picked, and have all of the same base power, but different purposes.
I had more ideas... but my brain broke.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Bias Alert: As many barbarians know, I am rabidly anti-magic in game. I don't get rejuved (I instantly depart), I don't use gates, I don't use any magic that is not absolutely forced on me by others or the situation. I also personally feel that many magics are overpowered and/or magic guilds seem to get swiss army spells.
Opinion: I don't see why barbarians shouldn't have the option to be immune to magic, if they're really immune to magic. No gates, no gweths, no rejuv, no nothing. Make it an oath, clan, order, lodge, what have you as an option for non-standard barbarians.
I don't see why N/MR should be affected one bit by the nature of the spell, beneficial or non (excepting TM and AOE for obvious reasons). Last time I knew, N/MR didn't read minds or analyze whether that stream of magic heading for you is going to make you all happy and tingly, or blow your left arm off. It should resist all spell and targetting matrixes on or near you with the same efficiency. If they have some sort of different matrix, it's strains my personal credulity (I think that's a word) that some bright mage hasn't figured out how to make an offensive spell that fakes it.
Suggestion: Make Barbarian abilities based off a skill. Call it Inner Fire, call it Barbarism, call it Offensive Uses for Fruit Cake. Basically its the ability to channel Inner Fire towards useful things. It's trained and used by dances, roars, meditiations, berserks, and successful resisting of magic. Have a base BMR slightly above an NMU's MR that represents the unthinking natural repulsion of IF to mana, and then a bonus above it based on reflexive willful use.
Why?: They had this same problem with many spells, having stat vs. skill contests, which are inherintly unfair most of the time. This also gives Barbarians the choice of just how much effort they put into it, just like MUs. This may also resolve some issues with roars.... though that's another can of worms.
Possible Extension: If its based on a skill, then it would allow dances to be picked, and have all of the same base power, but different purposes.
I had more ideas... but my brain broke.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
As the theory goes - when your dead you can't actively resist magic. I think the idea of no rejuv or resurrection is a bit extreme especially considering it is a self imposed handicap.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
<<Of course higher circle Dances/zerks will have higher maxium resistance bonus.
Actually, one way to help BMR be more effective at lower levels would be to have the lower circle dances and berserks boost more than higher circle ones. That would put the larger boost where it's needed (at least as things currently stand) and allow higher circle characters to choose between a greater BMR boost and a greater combat boost.
Along those lines a meditation (or dance if you prefer) that provided a maximum boost to BMR but did not allow other dances or berserks (that part is already in place if it were to be a new dance) would fall in line nicely.
~Bractos
Actually, one way to help BMR be more effective at lower levels would be to have the lower circle dances and berserks boost more than higher circle ones. That would put the larger boost where it's needed (at least as things currently stand) and allow higher circle characters to choose between a greater BMR boost and a greater combat boost.
Along those lines a meditation (or dance if you prefer) that provided a maximum boost to BMR but did not allow other dances or berserks (that part is already in place if it were to be a new dance) would fall in line nicely.
~Bractos
<<Perhaps a Barbarian who has been out of combat, out of the hunt for days on end would find his resistance weakened to its base level. Those who hunt more often, kill more will find their natural resistance raise a bit.
A bonus that depended on being in combat or recently in combat would be great.
~Bractos
A bonus that depended on being in combat or recently in combat would be great.
~Bractos
Hmm that sounds interesting. Kind of like the moon mage prediction pool. Barbs could go and kill a couple dozen enemies to get bonused BMR for a few hours. Though I could see this becoming an issue in tournaments where recent saughter isn't always possible.
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
If BMR is going under global caps, I do not see how it can completely stop spells. A 100 rank reduction at the top end of DR is rough but hardly crippling. BMR is an free of charge passive ability and why should that completely overwhealm anything or be a greater ability than anything else in the game?
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
>>BMR is an free of charge passive ability and why should that completely overwhealm anything or be a greater ability than anything else in the game?
Since you're having trouble understanding the costs of BMR I'll state it again.
BMR is not free. I sacrifice access to an entire skill set to get it and the perks to that come with that skill.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Since you're having trouble understanding the costs of BMR I'll state it again.
BMR is not free. I sacrifice access to an entire skill set to get it and the perks to that come with that skill.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Stolas is the one causing the ruckus when we're trying to have a decent discussion! Be gone!
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I have a hard time justifying the use of the ignore button. While I generally disagree with just about everything Stolas has ever posted I still don't believe its in my best interest to completely shut him or anyone out from being heard.
Just a personal preference. At this point I don't want to see that kind of mis-information being spread all over.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Just a personal preference. At this point I don't want to see that kind of mis-information being spread all over.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
<<BMR is not free. I sacrifice access to an entire skill set to get it and the perks to that come with that skill.
So, if you never train evasion and ignore the effects of all weapon skills would you say that you were sacraficing survival?
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
So, if you never train evasion and ignore the effects of all weapon skills would you say that you were sacraficing survival?
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
>>So, if you never train evasion and ignore the effects of all weapon skills would you say that you were sacraficing survival?
No I'd say you were being silly.
As a Barbarian I have ZERO spells. NO way to perceive power, NO way to harness mana. I cannot use scrolls, I cannot use runes, I cannot use gweth smashers. I'm completely and utterly cut off from the entire skill set ASIDE from being taught.
EVEN if I did manage to listen to magic lessons on target magic and primary magic it would serve NO purpose because I cannot UTILIZE the skills.
Survival is open to every guild. You can train evasion the same as I can. We're both secondary.
Please, try and come up with a coherent argument before you ask silly questions.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
No I'd say you were being silly.
As a Barbarian I have ZERO spells. NO way to perceive power, NO way to harness mana. I cannot use scrolls, I cannot use runes, I cannot use gweth smashers. I'm completely and utterly cut off from the entire skill set ASIDE from being taught.
EVEN if I did manage to listen to magic lessons on target magic and primary magic it would serve NO purpose because I cannot UTILIZE the skills.
Survival is open to every guild. You can train evasion the same as I can. We're both secondary.
Please, try and come up with a coherent argument before you ask silly questions.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
And to think, currently, you have to become 60ish or more to even start seeing some real benefits of BMR. Up until that point, it's almost like sacrificing an entire skillset along with its perks for absolutely nothing.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Why do I want to respond:
If spells are under global caps, I do not see how they can over come BMR.
It should be a 50% 50% issues right? Totally overcome vs totally negated should be about = and the rest should fall in the partial range. If the caps are fair.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
If spells are under global caps, I do not see how they can over come BMR.
It should be a 50% 50% issues right? Totally overcome vs totally negated should be about = and the rest should fall in the partial range. If the caps are fair.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
<<If spells are under global caps, I do not see how they can over come BMR.
It should be a 50% 50% issues right? Totally overcome vs totally negated should be about = and the rest should fall in the partial range. If the caps are fair.>>
I don't think that technically would be fair Madgar, because BMR is passive. I look at it more like this:
If everyting is even in stats....
Spell is cast at barb, barb BMR knocks 50% off of its power, than it has to go through the stat contest, which are than equal again which knocks another 50% off the top. So the magic getting through is 25% of the spell. I think what the major problem of the situation is that spells are either too powerful or too weak and that 25% is way too powerful. Once they get this scaling corrected I am sure it will be pretty fair.
..That is how I always looked at it.
The 2 issues I have with this though.
- I think it should be scaled as a weapon is scaled. If said mage has the same exact evasion\shield and same stats as I have in blade can I hit them?
- Also, since a mage can pump mana into a spell to make it more powerful, please take that into account as well as things could get lopsided again.
It should be a 50% 50% issues right? Totally overcome vs totally negated should be about = and the rest should fall in the partial range. If the caps are fair.>>
I don't think that technically would be fair Madgar, because BMR is passive. I look at it more like this:
If everyting is even in stats....
Spell is cast at barb, barb BMR knocks 50% off of its power, than it has to go through the stat contest, which are than equal again which knocks another 50% off the top. So the magic getting through is 25% of the spell. I think what the major problem of the situation is that spells are either too powerful or too weak and that 25% is way too powerful. Once they get this scaling corrected I am sure it will be pretty fair.
..That is how I always looked at it.
The 2 issues I have with this though.
- I think it should be scaled as a weapon is scaled. If said mage has the same exact evasion\shield and same stats as I have in blade can I hit them?
- Also, since a mage can pump mana into a spell to make it more powerful, please take that into account as well as things could get lopsided again.
Interesting idea. 50% then 50% with correct scaling. Hmm. Scale them = to a single attack with a weapon? That might work. Waiting for full prep might be like 2 attacks and snap casting = to 1/2 or 3/4?
When I attack with a blade or you attack with TM, there is a chance of a total miss. I think this needs to be there with both MR and BMR. If BMR worked like you suggested, how would MR work for non barbarians? Knock it down 10% then another 10%?
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
When I attack with a blade or you attack with TM, there is a chance of a total miss. I think this needs to be there with both MR and BMR. If BMR worked like you suggested, how would MR work for non barbarians? Knock it down 10% then another 10%?
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
I don't think BMR, MR, or any ability for that matter should work off of removing percents of a target's ability. If you cut someone's fighting force in half, that's practically immunity.
I think a problem in the whole design concept of someone "at level" in this discussion is that a Barbarian of equal level to another guild will, by guild requirements and shear skillset learning advantage, traditionally have vastly more combat skill than the other guild. With this shear skill advantage, to further remove offensive strength of that lesser skilled guild in the form of incredibly powerful MR and BMR seems kind of redundant if it's so powerful that it negates it entirely, in my opinion.
So then, my question is do we try to balance the higher success of MR and BMR to circle, skill, or stats?
Just a personal point of view, but if I've worked hard enough at my combat skills to match that of a Barbarian(which as a Bard, is quite difficult) then I don't see why I should be placed at an even steeper innate disadvantage in terms of skill. An analogy would be if a Barbarian got 300 in Smithing and was at a severe disadvantage to a Trader in the forge who learns Smithing at a primary rate. This is a double penalty and is obviously not fair to the Barbarian in this example.
However, Barbarians do not have access to the entire Magic skillset which must also be taken into consideration. What exactly do Barbarians lose from this reality? Well, they lose TDP's and access to certain magic based items; however, they also gain the benefit of basing all of their mystical abilities on their primary skillset, they have an incredible combat based skillset layout(no combat skills tertiary), and they have access to some of the most powerful abilities in the game(this has been stated to be part of the compensation for exclusion of the Magic skillset).
Because of this, I feel that passive MR should be akin to having a constant Shear/Aether Cloak effect that is slowly eaten away when spells are suffered through. BMR should be a stronger version of this, and the same concept should apply. Of course, both MR and BMR would slowly regenerate over time when damaged.
In the case of BMR scaling in terms of circle 1 through 150, this version of BMR wouldn't grow with the Barbarian past circle 50. This is based off of my impression that absolute Magic Resistance is absolute Magic Resistance. If you've removed yourself from magic, there's not much more you can do to further remove yourself from magic. Either your Magic Resistance is at its fullest, or it is sub-strength to what it could be. The reason BMR would scale from circle 1 to 50 comes from the idea that Barbarians don't have absolute Magic Resistance when they initially join the guild, but instead, over a period of time acquire its full potential from the continual ostricism of magic. An analogy would be two different Mages holding an Aether Cloak with 45 mana, one mage being circle 50 and the other being circle 100. In both of these scenarios the Aether Cloak is of the same strength, but is still useful even given the 50 circle difference between the mages. That is how I view Magic Resistance.
This is just my own crack at a solution to the whole MR/BMR problem. In no way do I wish to see the Barbarian guild "nerfed", although I highly doubt that would happen because, BMR or not, you guys are pretty tough as it stands.
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We are still discussing options and we are still trying to find the best plan we can that will not bring about the end of the world as we all know it. Well, that isn't necessarily accurate. The world as you know it will end.
I think a problem in the whole design concept of someone "at level" in this discussion is that a Barbarian of equal level to another guild will, by guild requirements and shear skillset learning advantage, traditionally have vastly more combat skill than the other guild. With this shear skill advantage, to further remove offensive strength of that lesser skilled guild in the form of incredibly powerful MR and BMR seems kind of redundant if it's so powerful that it negates it entirely, in my opinion.
So then, my question is do we try to balance the higher success of MR and BMR to circle, skill, or stats?
Just a personal point of view, but if I've worked hard enough at my combat skills to match that of a Barbarian(which as a Bard, is quite difficult) then I don't see why I should be placed at an even steeper innate disadvantage in terms of skill. An analogy would be if a Barbarian got 300 in Smithing and was at a severe disadvantage to a Trader in the forge who learns Smithing at a primary rate. This is a double penalty and is obviously not fair to the Barbarian in this example.
However, Barbarians do not have access to the entire Magic skillset which must also be taken into consideration. What exactly do Barbarians lose from this reality? Well, they lose TDP's and access to certain magic based items; however, they also gain the benefit of basing all of their mystical abilities on their primary skillset, they have an incredible combat based skillset layout(no combat skills tertiary), and they have access to some of the most powerful abilities in the game(this has been stated to be part of the compensation for exclusion of the Magic skillset).
Because of this, I feel that passive MR should be akin to having a constant Shear/Aether Cloak effect that is slowly eaten away when spells are suffered through. BMR should be a stronger version of this, and the same concept should apply. Of course, both MR and BMR would slowly regenerate over time when damaged.
In the case of BMR scaling in terms of circle 1 through 150, this version of BMR wouldn't grow with the Barbarian past circle 50. This is based off of my impression that absolute Magic Resistance is absolute Magic Resistance. If you've removed yourself from magic, there's not much more you can do to further remove yourself from magic. Either your Magic Resistance is at its fullest, or it is sub-strength to what it could be. The reason BMR would scale from circle 1 to 50 comes from the idea that Barbarians don't have absolute Magic Resistance when they initially join the guild, but instead, over a period of time acquire its full potential from the continual ostricism of magic. An analogy would be two different Mages holding an Aether Cloak with 45 mana, one mage being circle 50 and the other being circle 100. In both of these scenarios the Aether Cloak is of the same strength, but is still useful even given the 50 circle difference between the mages. That is how I view Magic Resistance.
This is just my own crack at a solution to the whole MR/BMR problem. In no way do I wish to see the Barbarian guild "nerfed", although I highly doubt that would happen because, BMR or not, you guys are pretty tough as it stands.
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We are still discussing options and we are still trying to find the best plan we can that will not bring about the end of the world as we all know it. Well, that isn't necessarily accurate. The world as you know it will end.
Okay, I've been reading this arguement for a bit, and I'm seeing a question here that no one's asking and everyone's assuming they know the answer to.
Is BMR (and by extension other abilities) going to be calibrated based on the circles of the contenders, or hypothetical capabilities due to time played, or a third factor entirely?
I ask this because people have been mentioning how they feel mages circle faster than barbarians, TDP discrepencies, and other factors.
Basing it on circle is easy, will be unaffected by future changes, but has a large chance of totally missing out on a number of factors that have an effect.
The other is difficult, likely require periodic tweaking as each guild gains new abilities and system changes, but will in theory be more fair.
.... I don't envy you guys.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Is BMR (and by extension other abilities) going to be calibrated based on the circles of the contenders, or hypothetical capabilities due to time played, or a third factor entirely?
I ask this because people have been mentioning how they feel mages circle faster than barbarians, TDP discrepencies, and other factors.
Basing it on circle is easy, will be unaffected by future changes, but has a large chance of totally missing out on a number of factors that have an effect.
The other is difficult, likely require periodic tweaking as each guild gains new abilities and system changes, but will in theory be more fair.
.... I don't envy you guys.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
<<Veil of Ice
<<Aether Cloak
<<Shear
These spells all work differently. Veil of Ice makes you immune from the next TM attack. Aether Cloak subtracts TM ranks from the attacker. Shear removes mana from the spell so that it becomes a minimal cast. Due to the way that even some minimal cast spells calculations still blow off body parts Shear is the least protective of all of those spells at the moment. Though all of those spells have downsides to having them up. I believe Veil of Ice requires that you dont cast another spell and Aether Cloak is held mana, so both spells put you in passive mode. Shear doesnt let you cast any Psychic Projection spell while you get little or no protection against spells. And yes, I know it does interact with the spell, but if you are still dead afterwards and you actually won the spell contest ... that doesnt sound like winning to me.
If I was a barbie I'd ask for the skill reducer instead of the mana drainer, at least today. Armifer has stated that one day that spell calculations would get looked at so that might change in the future. However, if BMR is another skill reducer coupled with Evasion you are looking at a significant reduction of ranks against the barbie, might even be practical immunity.
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
<<Aether Cloak
<<Shear
These spells all work differently. Veil of Ice makes you immune from the next TM attack. Aether Cloak subtracts TM ranks from the attacker. Shear removes mana from the spell so that it becomes a minimal cast. Due to the way that even some minimal cast spells calculations still blow off body parts Shear is the least protective of all of those spells at the moment. Though all of those spells have downsides to having them up. I believe Veil of Ice requires that you dont cast another spell and Aether Cloak is held mana, so both spells put you in passive mode. Shear doesnt let you cast any Psychic Projection spell while you get little or no protection against spells. And yes, I know it does interact with the spell, but if you are still dead afterwards and you actually won the spell contest ... that doesnt sound like winning to me.
If I was a barbie I'd ask for the skill reducer instead of the mana drainer, at least today. Armifer has stated that one day that spell calculations would get looked at so that might change in the future. However, if BMR is another skill reducer coupled with Evasion you are looking at a significant reduction of ranks against the barbie, might even be practical immunity.
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
<<When I attack with a blade or you attack with TM, there is a chance of a total miss. I think this needs to be there with both MR and BMR. If BMR worked like you suggested, how would MR work for non barbarians? Knock it down 10% then another 10%? >>
Yeah that is what I was thinking, just a smaller percentage.
Yeah that is what I was thinking, just a smaller percentage.
<<I don't think BMR, MR, or any ability for that matter should work off of removing percents of a target's ability. If you cut someone's fighting force in half, that's practically immunity.>>
Nah definately not immunity unless your well over the mage....because a percentage (unless it is 100%) always will let some of the magic affect through. Right now it obviously isn't working on a percentage, it is looking at some set of stats/skills vs another, and one trumps the other at high circles apparently. - 50% - 50% = 25% magic through was just an example to show what I was talking about. Most likely, from what I can tell it's going to be on a some kind of curve with diminishing returns as you get higher (based on the gap between skills/stats)....at least that is what I see the GM's trying to push for. (away from linear progression)
So say the barb > mage scenario....that 25% would decrease as the gap in power (stats/skills whatever) got bigger between the mage and the barb. But it would be on a curve and not linear, so maybe getting 5 circles ahead would drop the % down to 20%, but to get it down to 15% you need 7 more circles ahead, and to get it down to 10% it would be 10 more circles ahead. So when the gap is 22 circles, the mage is getting 10% magic through. Some kind of curve like this is what I see the GMs pushing for.
Again, as I stated before, the biggest problem with this is deciding what is 10% of the spell? It seems alot of things are set up as either 1, 2, or 3? miss/middle hit/max hit....I think that is where the system breaks down.
Circles were just easier to explain as how my thinking goes, but I don't think circles should be the factor.
Nah definately not immunity unless your well over the mage....because a percentage (unless it is 100%) always will let some of the magic affect through. Right now it obviously isn't working on a percentage, it is looking at some set of stats/skills vs another, and one trumps the other at high circles apparently. - 50% - 50% = 25% magic through was just an example to show what I was talking about. Most likely, from what I can tell it's going to be on a some kind of curve with diminishing returns as you get higher (based on the gap between skills/stats)....at least that is what I see the GM's trying to push for. (away from linear progression)
So say the barb > mage scenario....that 25% would decrease as the gap in power (stats/skills whatever) got bigger between the mage and the barb. But it would be on a curve and not linear, so maybe getting 5 circles ahead would drop the % down to 20%, but to get it down to 15% you need 7 more circles ahead, and to get it down to 10% it would be 10 more circles ahead. So when the gap is 22 circles, the mage is getting 10% magic through. Some kind of curve like this is what I see the GMs pushing for.
Again, as I stated before, the biggest problem with this is deciding what is 10% of the spell? It seems alot of things are set up as either 1, 2, or 3? miss/middle hit/max hit....I think that is where the system breaks down.
Circles were just easier to explain as how my thinking goes, but I don't think circles should be the factor.
New Idea, not sure if its doable.
Make BMR a skill contest off highest weapon to cacluate its affects on the cast. No clue how it would work just a suggestion
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
Make BMR a skill contest off highest weapon to cacluate its affects on the cast. No clue how it would work just a suggestion
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
I hope I'm not repeating anyone, but don't think I've seen this tossed out there:
Has anyone considered an actual IF boost when successfully shirking magic well beneath our yet to be determined determinate? Meaning, magic that is at or above the threshold that will be determined will cause a neutral effect, or hit to IF; while magic that is well below would actually give you a boost. If some little weakling mage sends a prep fs 5 at you, you might have "The fire shard glances off XXXs chest. He/She roaringly laughs and continues their pursuit."
If IF were to be determined by level, with this notion: a 50 barb would get a boost from magic of a 40 level mage or lower, neutral from 41-59, and a hit to IF for 50+. Just another idea.
Bastchian
Remember the good ol' days, when no one complained about the good ol' days?
Has anyone considered an actual IF boost when successfully shirking magic well beneath our yet to be determined determinate? Meaning, magic that is at or above the threshold that will be determined will cause a neutral effect, or hit to IF; while magic that is well below would actually give you a boost. If some little weakling mage sends a prep fs 5 at you, you might have "The fire shard glances off XXXs chest. He/She roaringly laughs and continues their pursuit."
If IF were to be determined by level, with this notion: a 50 barb would get a boost from magic of a 40 level mage or lower, neutral from 41-59, and a hit to IF for 50+. Just another idea.
Bastchian
Remember the good ol' days, when no one complained about the good ol' days?
I actually really like that idea, it should be thought and fleshed out by someone far better then me. But i do like the notion that if some random mage well beneath me tries to hurt me with some spell that has no chance at hell my inner fire would "Grow as it shirks, or eats, the magic cast at you"
You attempt to cast on random barbarian.
Barbarian growls, then looks at you with fire growing in his eyes.
...not quite.. but, it could be fun
____________________________________________________
You throw your juggling pins precisely at Captain Tevel's chest, hitting it with a decent strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
The Captain Tevel is already very dead.
You attempt to cast on random barbarian.
Barbarian growls, then looks at you with fire growing in his eyes.
...not quite.. but, it could be fun
____________________________________________________
You throw your juggling pins precisely at Captain Tevel's chest, hitting it with a decent strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
The Captain Tevel is already very dead.
<<Has anyone considered an actual IF boost when successfully shirking magic well beneath our yet to be determined determinate? Meaning, magic that is at or above the threshold that will be determined will cause a neutral effect, or hit to IF; while magic that is well below would actually give you a boost. If some little weakling mage sends a prep fs 5 at you, you might have "The fire shard glances off XXXs chest. He/She roaringly laughs and continues their pursuit."
It would be a great way to use secondary accounts to actually repair and boost IF.
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
It would be a great way to use secondary accounts to actually repair and boost IF.
Stolas
The views expressed in this post are in no way endorsed by the Moon Mage guild or the Progeny of Tezirah sect ... but I am sure they will come around.
