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>Sorry to be critical, but it DOES sound like we got the short end of the stick
You mean the one where 24 hours ago you couldn't do it and didn't know you were ever going to be able to but now can?
>I'm curious why 'zerking or dancing Barbs (even with just certain dances or berserks) aren't allowed an insta-pole ability as well.
Like, erm, the one that keeps getting complained about?
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
It's unfortunate but typical for the DR boards.....I think we may have had some WMs join the Barb guild recently.
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What's the point of faster engagement if not to help bypass the retreat mechanics? I thought that was the whole point for "jumping to pole?" The thieves ability works because they can jump to pole, and instantly ambush slash. If you plan on nerfing that, the skill won't be nearly as useful. Some thieves would still use it however, because faster advancing + people not able to see you advance = helpful. Faster advancing + not being able to use it in hiding + people automatically see you coming = spam retreat, exactly like normal.
I would like to hear the reasons you all think this is even remotely useful, besides "we couldn't do it yesterday."
I would like to hear the reasons you all think this is even remotely useful, besides "we couldn't do it yesterday."
>>I would like to hear the reasons you all think this is even remotely useful, besides "we couldn't do it yesterday." <<
Someone already told you it will be helpful in PvC to kill creatures faster. It probably won't be as helpful in PVP because you can't be hidden (?) but it probably wasn't intended for PVP...
On a second thought, if you can stun them\immobilize them and then use it to get to melee quick it can be helpful in PVP to get to melee before the stun wears off....so in that way it could be helpful in PVP.
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Someone already told you it will be helpful in PvC to kill creatures faster. It probably won't be as helpful in PVP because you can't be hidden (?) but it probably wasn't intended for PVP...
On a second thought, if you can stun them\immobilize them and then use it to get to melee quick it can be helpful in PVP to get to melee before the stun wears off....so in that way it could be helpful in PVP.
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>>On a second thought, if you can stun them\immobilize them and then use it to get to melee quick it can be helpful in PVP to get to melee before the stun wears off....so in that way it could be helpful in PVP.
^ This.
Plus, you'll already be at least nimbly, and possibly incredibly balanced right out of the gate, while a stunned foe would be at sub-par balance.
My suggestion would be to dance swan, set a macro to roar lash, then anger, then advance... assuming you're good enough to affect them with the first two, you should be in a good position to smite them.
Putting the Romance back in Necromancer.
Necromancy: Because every man lives, not every man really dies.
^ This.
Plus, you'll already be at least nimbly, and possibly incredibly balanced right out of the gate, while a stunned foe would be at sub-par balance.
My suggestion would be to dance swan, set a macro to roar lash, then anger, then advance... assuming you're good enough to affect them with the first two, you should be in a good position to smite them.
Putting the Romance back in Necromancer.
Necromancy: Because every man lives, not every man really dies.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the thief ability brought more in line with the way swan's advance happens now.
Even if it isnt, we still got something that has a lot of utility.
I am kinda confused why cobra isnt moving me in as quickly today as it was last night, maybe I was just tired and seeing things.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
Even if it isnt, we still got something that has a lot of utility.
I am kinda confused why cobra isnt moving me in as quickly today as it was last night, maybe I was just tired and seeing things.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
<<You mean the one where 24 hours ago you couldn't do it and didn't know you were ever going to be able to but now can?>>
Compared to the Shadowstep Khri Thieves have had for months? Yeah.
<<Like, erm, the one that keeps getting complained about?>>
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of dances that AREN'T Swan. Sure, give Swan something to make it useful, but I don't think people are gonna foresake Dragon for it too often.
It's undoubtedly useful and an improvement. I'm positive it'll have uses.
A Thief with Shadowstep still has no RT and gets to stay in hiding.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
Compared to the Shadowstep Khri Thieves have had for months? Yeah.
<<Like, erm, the one that keeps getting complained about?>>
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of dances that AREN'T Swan. Sure, give Swan something to make it useful, but I don't think people are gonna foresake Dragon for it too often.
It's undoubtedly useful and an improvement. I'm positive it'll have uses.
A Thief with Shadowstep still has no RT and gets to stay in hiding.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
I just fail to see the effectiveness, based on my observations last night. I haven't had a chance to test today.
3 second RT means the Barbarian advances + leaps to pole w/RT.
The target retreats and gets 3 free seconds of aim.
Definitely a no-go for PvP. I didn't notice any differences in any dances that I actually use last night (badger/panther/wolverine).
____________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
3 second RT means the Barbarian advances + leaps to pole w/RT.
The target retreats and gets 3 free seconds of aim.
Definitely a no-go for PvP. I didn't notice any differences in any dances that I actually use last night (badger/panther/wolverine).
____________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
It would just make sense for panther.... :0
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It wouldn't be too helpful for PvP at the moment. The only thing I would hope when using it is that a jump to pole even with the RT might catch someone off guard. By the time they notice you're advancing, if they're able to retreat, you'll close to pole ranged immediately once the RT is done and possibly get in a charge, or maybe a nice swing if you use a pole-ranged weapon.
Not the best strategy, but it's better than what we had 2 days ago. Also, Ssra hinted that it could be very effective when engagement is changed. I say roll with the flow, post constructive criticism if necessary, and just be thankful that we got what we got.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Not the best strategy, but it's better than what we had 2 days ago. Also, Ssra hinted that it could be very effective when engagement is changed. I say roll with the flow, post constructive criticism if necessary, and just be thankful that we got what we got.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Not to mention, by the time the 3 second of RT is up, you are AT melee. Forget the jump to pole, it might as well be a jump to melee with a 3 second RT.
And swan advances FAST. If they retreat, you are gonna hit pole instead of melee on the next advance pulse, which puts you in range of a charge attack, and continue advancing at the accelerated rate even if they continue typing retreat. You can of course type HIDE at the end of the retreat if you havent hit melee yet and are still advancing......
Use some of your roars to make reteating difficult/impossible for a few seconds and you're golden.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
And swan advances FAST. If they retreat, you are gonna hit pole instead of melee on the next advance pulse, which puts you in range of a charge attack, and continue advancing at the accelerated rate even if they continue typing retreat. You can of course type HIDE at the end of the retreat if you havent hit melee yet and are still advancing......
Use some of your roars to make reteating difficult/impossible for a few seconds and you're golden.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
I can see it being useful against stickbow-users if you can get a swing in before they get back to missile. Since they're not able to use a shield or parry, it could get real painful for them. This might make pole weapons more desireable for Barbs, which is probably a good thing.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
This will be my last post on this for a while except for the one with more specifics that will come later today.
Gang, this wasn't intended to be an overall release of missle to melee or a snag of a khri. The dances that have this were dances that were already supposed to have engagement effects but they never worked. The update to Swan is new.
Keep in mind that Swan is the very first dance that one gets. Not a bad perk to a first dance. As has already been stated, you can use your other abilities to help with the 3 second RT. The reason for the RT is, among other things, is the fact that DANCE SWAN + wait for RT + ADVANCE + CHARGE = instant melee. That's not happening right now, if ever.
There is an engagement rewrite that is going to happen and there is work on other systems to be done as well. We're certainly not finished with everything.
If you don't like the 3 second RT or don't find the ability (as) useful (as other dances), then you don't have to use Swan. If you covet Sidestep, I suggest the Thieves' Guild. It is bad business to compare guild abilities - the logic really doesn't carry like one might think. I develop for the Barbarians, not the Thieves, Clerics, Traders, or anyone else. What they have as abilities doesn't really play an active role in the thought process of, "Could we do this? Would it be cool? Will it work correctly? Will it be useful? Can it be approved? Does it make sense for Barbarians?"
Ssra and I are well aware that we aren't going to please everyone with this, but that's just the nature of life. We try to please as many as we can and I do firmly believe that we hit a really solid number with this one, so I'm not going to complain. To those who do like the changes, we're thrilled you like them.
I'm not done yet. Well, except for with this thread.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
Gang, this wasn't intended to be an overall release of missle to melee or a snag of a khri. The dances that have this were dances that were already supposed to have engagement effects but they never worked. The update to Swan is new.
Keep in mind that Swan is the very first dance that one gets. Not a bad perk to a first dance. As has already been stated, you can use your other abilities to help with the 3 second RT. The reason for the RT is, among other things, is the fact that DANCE SWAN + wait for RT + ADVANCE + CHARGE = instant melee. That's not happening right now, if ever.
There is an engagement rewrite that is going to happen and there is work on other systems to be done as well. We're certainly not finished with everything.
If you don't like the 3 second RT or don't find the ability (as) useful (as other dances), then you don't have to use Swan. If you covet Sidestep, I suggest the Thieves' Guild. It is bad business to compare guild abilities - the logic really doesn't carry like one might think. I develop for the Barbarians, not the Thieves, Clerics, Traders, or anyone else. What they have as abilities doesn't really play an active role in the thought process of, "Could we do this? Would it be cool? Will it work correctly? Will it be useful? Can it be approved? Does it make sense for Barbarians?"
Ssra and I are well aware that we aren't going to please everyone with this, but that's just the nature of life. We try to please as many as we can and I do firmly believe that we hit a really solid number with this one, so I'm not going to complain. To those who do like the changes, we're thrilled you like them.
I'm not done yet. Well, except for with this thread.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
Why can't the person being advanced on just make a perception/wisdom/other-useful-stat/skill check to see if they can "see" the Barb advancing. If their check fails, they can't watch the Barb well enough to retreat.
>failed check
All you see is a fast-moving blur.
What is there to retreat from?
If there was a check on the person/critter (sluaghs, kelpies, anything else that retreats) being advanced on, I don't see any problem whatsoever with 3 RT. Being stuck with 3 RT and a retreating opponent vs. 3 RT and melee position would be a risk of combat.
Your mind hears Eladrin thinking, "i saw tikoro make out with a goblin once"
Your mind hears Tikoro thinking, "{faintly}" "Yeah, your mum is pretty ugly."
>failed check
All you see is a fast-moving blur.
What is there to retreat from?
If there was a check on the person/critter (sluaghs, kelpies, anything else that retreats) being advanced on, I don't see any problem whatsoever with 3 RT. Being stuck with 3 RT and a retreating opponent vs. 3 RT and melee position would be a risk of combat.
Your mind hears Eladrin thinking, "i saw tikoro make out with a goblin once"
Your mind hears Tikoro thinking, "{faintly}" "Yeah, your mum is pretty ugly."
I have not tested this change yet, but it sounds pretty cool to me. The 3 sec RT is not going to affect me much, but that is because I don't typically kill other players. Now something cool would be if on a super success, you stun the opponent, or they lose balance or something. Something like this:
You leap to pole range on a peccary.
The peccary freezes for a moment in shock at your suddden engagement. (3 sec stun?)
Roundtime: 3 sec.
or this:
You leap to pole range on a peccary.
The peccary trips slightly while trying to adjust to your sudden engagement. (Balance decrease?)
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Just a thought.
You leap to pole range on a peccary.
The peccary freezes for a moment in shock at your suddden engagement. (3 sec stun?)
Roundtime: 3 sec.
or this:
You leap to pole range on a peccary.
The peccary trips slightly while trying to adjust to your sudden engagement. (Balance decrease?)
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Just a thought.
Gang,
Keep the posts constructive, civil and on topic - this means NO Guild vs Guild.
Further non-constructive posts will be removed.
Annwyl
Senior Board Monitor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing Senior Board Monitor DR-Annwyl@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor DR-Cecco@play.net.
Okay, I really hope this doesn't get pulled because I AM trying to be constructive.
<<The reason for the RT is, among other things, is the fact that DANCE SWAN + wait for RT + ADVANCE + CHARGE = instant melee.>>
I THINK Shadowstep (Not trying to be GvG on this one, it's just the only other ability I know of that does the jump to pole thing) prevents instant melee somehow without RT. Is this true? If the aforementioned other things are enough to merit the RT on their own, then by all means keep it on.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
<<The reason for the RT is, among other things, is the fact that DANCE SWAN + wait for RT + ADVANCE + CHARGE = instant melee.>>
I THINK Shadowstep (Not trying to be GvG on this one, it's just the only other ability I know of that does the jump to pole thing) prevents instant melee somehow without RT. Is this true? If the aforementioned other things are enough to merit the RT on their own, then by all means keep it on.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
<<The peccary freezes for a moment in shock at your suddden engagement. (3 sec stun?)>>
Thank you. That is much more constructive than "waah this sucks." I can work with this.
Regarding shadow step ..
Shadow step requires you to be hidden and you cannot charge from hiding. If you can charge from hiding that is a bug. If a thief wants to "unhide" just to be able to charge and give up backstab I think that's a stupid move to make and any barbarian worth their salt should eat that thief alive.
/salute
-Ssra
Thank you. That is much more constructive than "waah this sucks." I can work with this.
Regarding shadow step ..
Shadow step requires you to be hidden and you cannot charge from hiding. If you can charge from hiding that is a bug. If a thief wants to "unhide" just to be able to charge and give up backstab I think that's a stupid move to make and any barbarian worth their salt should eat that thief alive.
/salute
-Ssra
>Shadow step requires you to be hidden and you cannot charge from hiding. If you can charge from hiding that is a bug.
Ok, then call it a bug, but it is certainly possible.
Plus, khri slash can be done instantly from pole range without charging. (Even if you fail the stalking check at missile range, but that's a separate bug.)
>Keep the posts constructive, civil and on topic - this means NO Guild vs Guild.
I think that posts can be contructive, civil, and meaningfully compare different guild abilities. Are we really not allowed to mention the similar thief ability?
Ok, then call it a bug, but it is certainly possible.
Plus, khri slash can be done instantly from pole range without charging. (Even if you fail the stalking check at missile range, but that's a separate bug.)
>Keep the posts constructive, civil and on topic - this means NO Guild vs Guild.
I think that posts can be contructive, civil, and meaningfully compare different guild abilities. Are we really not allowed to mention the similar thief ability?
<<Ok, then call it a bug, but it is certainly possible.>>
Shouldn't be happening unless they unhide.
<<Plus, khri slash can be done instantly from pole range without charging. (Even if you fail the stalking check at missile range, but that's a separate bug.)>>
Ambush slash should work based on range of the weapon the thief is holding.
Email me how it's done and I'll get it fixed.
Thanks.
-Ssra
Shouldn't be happening unless they unhide.
<<Plus, khri slash can be done instantly from pole range without charging. (Even if you fail the stalking check at missile range, but that's a separate bug.)>>
Ambush slash should work based on range of the weapon the thief is holding.
Email me how it's done and I'll get it fixed.
Thanks.
-Ssra
Ssra, were cobra wolverine and dragon supposed to be providing a boost? We seemed to see quicker pulses to pole and melee last night from em but today things seem back to square one, was I just seeing things?
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
it seemed more pronounced a difference last night, are things still being tweaked?
not dancing anything seems to be around 10.5 seconds to get to melee, dancing cobra seems to range from 8.5 to 10 seconds now.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
not dancing anything seems to be around 10.5 seconds to get to melee, dancing cobra seems to range from 8.5 to 10 seconds now.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
Uses for Swan
1. First one in on a NPC baddy. No more endless engagement because too many people are in at close range. We're there first.
2. Quicker killing. Pretty simple. If I'm back training I'll take a 3 second RT to get in quick and hack down what needs to be killed. Heck even the shortened engagement time on cobra will go a long way.
3. PvP. If you think swan can't be put to good use in PvP come find me and I'll lay you out while using it ;)
4. Protecting others. You see Joe Malchata advancing Susie Empath and he's already got a head start on you. BAM you're at melee and Joe Malchata is kissing the dirt.
5. Pressures those sneaky types and makes their hiding check a lot harder. If I'm instantly at pole and Billy Thief is trying to hide his contest to win is a lot harder. Lets face it - Eagle is a sorry boost for perception, I'd rather be moving fast on a thief than standing back and praying I'll see him slip into hiding.
Yes, I know for some of these you might contest a roar is better or ability x is better. I don't care. This is one more weapon in our arsenal. Maybe it ain't for everyone. That is fine. Continue to use what works for you.
Aurdun, don't let the negative get to you. This is an excellent update and much appreciated.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
1. First one in on a NPC baddy. No more endless engagement because too many people are in at close range. We're there first.
2. Quicker killing. Pretty simple. If I'm back training I'll take a 3 second RT to get in quick and hack down what needs to be killed. Heck even the shortened engagement time on cobra will go a long way.
3. PvP. If you think swan can't be put to good use in PvP come find me and I'll lay you out while using it ;)
4. Protecting others. You see Joe Malchata advancing Susie Empath and he's already got a head start on you. BAM you're at melee and Joe Malchata is kissing the dirt.
5. Pressures those sneaky types and makes their hiding check a lot harder. If I'm instantly at pole and Billy Thief is trying to hide his contest to win is a lot harder. Lets face it - Eagle is a sorry boost for perception, I'd rather be moving fast on a thief than standing back and praying I'll see him slip into hiding.
Yes, I know for some of these you might contest a roar is better or ability x is better. I don't care. This is one more weapon in our arsenal. Maybe it ain't for everyone. That is fine. Continue to use what works for you.
Aurdun, don't let the negative get to you. This is an excellent update and much appreciated.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
Charging gives or gave defensive penalties, even if only indirectly through extra fatigue and requires additional roundtime.
Charging is only effective if you stun or put an opponent in a position where they lose the retreat check, unless you wound them enough that they cannot hide and the opponent uses that for a tactic.
Charging in this thread is being described as some great attack, it's not. It has never been a great attack. It has always been either an attack of desperation, or an attack used where the defensive penalties are not a significant hindrance e.g. while backtraining.
Charging being effective has suffered numerous setbacks, no penalty for ranged weapons, penalty removed for magic usage.
I like this change, I think it could be 100 times better in a variety of ways. Leave the roundtime and add it to items which have actual offensive boosts.
If you have a pole weapon in hand, add some way to do a charge to pole which includes an attack.
If people retreat, autojump to pole on the next engagement pulse automatically with no RT instead of leaving us to advance normally from missile or to stop advancing and rejump to pole with 3 seconds.
As part of the shrinking pool of melee/melee barbarians I'd rather not have a potentially very useful item for melee combat, be relegated to farming or a war stomp niche.
I am --- Navak
Charging is only effective if you stun or put an opponent in a position where they lose the retreat check, unless you wound them enough that they cannot hide and the opponent uses that for a tactic.
Charging in this thread is being described as some great attack, it's not. It has never been a great attack. It has always been either an attack of desperation, or an attack used where the defensive penalties are not a significant hindrance e.g. while backtraining.
Charging being effective has suffered numerous setbacks, no penalty for ranged weapons, penalty removed for magic usage.
I like this change, I think it could be 100 times better in a variety of ways. Leave the roundtime and add it to items which have actual offensive boosts.
If you have a pole weapon in hand, add some way to do a charge to pole which includes an attack.
If people retreat, autojump to pole on the next engagement pulse automatically with no RT instead of leaving us to advance normally from missile or to stop advancing and rejump to pole with 3 seconds.
As part of the shrinking pool of melee/melee barbarians I'd rather not have a potentially very useful item for melee combat, be relegated to farming or a war stomp niche.
I am --- Navak
>>Try charging with a thrusting weapon. Go ahead.
Medium Edge is my secondary weapon and I use charge with it quite a bit with both sabres and ilteshes.
Charging, which still has a number of bugs at least in messaging, is only used because the defensive modifiers are not significant, or because the target has reach.
When you purposely retreat between each attack just to charge, then I think I might see it differently.
Similar to sweep and lunge, it has its uses but it is not some overwhelming powerhouse without significant downsides.
I am --- Navak
Medium Edge is my secondary weapon and I use charge with it quite a bit with both sabres and ilteshes.
Charging, which still has a number of bugs at least in messaging, is only used because the defensive modifiers are not significant, or because the target has reach.
When you purposely retreat between each attack just to charge, then I think I might see it differently.
Similar to sweep and lunge, it has its uses but it is not some overwhelming powerhouse without significant downsides.
I am --- Navak
>>Yes.
Damnit! by the time I get 60th and dragon dance I will get the "it was supposed to be this way all along" version!
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Damnit! by the time I get 60th and dragon dance I will get the "it was supposed to be this way all along" version!
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
