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Yes have some.
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
I tested the new swan stuff against a warmie friend of mine. I told her to try to stay away (in other words, do what someone aiming with a bow would do).
If you catch the person loading, or stun them, you should be good. If the person REALLY wants to stay away, they can spam retreat and get away.
On the subject of not being able to charge from Shadowstep, it will take you out of hiding but you will charge. Here's the reason this bothered me:
1) Using Swan to do this jump to pole means we don't get to use any other dances or berserks, obviously. This means the Barb is down to Swan's bonuses and pure ranks in weapons.
2) Khri can be stacked, so a Thief will most likely be using other boosts (I've heard Spar is really good from a friend who recently got the concentration to do it).
So, the way I've been looking at it is Barbs have base ranks + Swan's benefits, and a 3 second RT is deemed necessary, but a Thief has base ranks + the benefits of any Khri they can stack but this doesn't need RT to be balanced. This is purely from an "engage as fast as you can" standpoint, i.e. use Shadowstep/Swan and try to charge. Hopefully this explains my earlier "short end of the stick" comment.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
If you catch the person loading, or stun them, you should be good. If the person REALLY wants to stay away, they can spam retreat and get away.
On the subject of not being able to charge from Shadowstep, it will take you out of hiding but you will charge. Here's the reason this bothered me:
1) Using Swan to do this jump to pole means we don't get to use any other dances or berserks, obviously. This means the Barb is down to Swan's bonuses and pure ranks in weapons.
2) Khri can be stacked, so a Thief will most likely be using other boosts (I've heard Spar is really good from a friend who recently got the concentration to do it).
So, the way I've been looking at it is Barbs have base ranks + Swan's benefits, and a 3 second RT is deemed necessary, but a Thief has base ranks + the benefits of any Khri they can stack but this doesn't need RT to be balanced. This is purely from an "engage as fast as you can" standpoint, i.e. use Shadowstep/Swan and try to charge. Hopefully this explains my earlier "short end of the stick" comment.
"Just for poops and giggles..."
-Solomon
<<I heard from a friend that Shadowstep was changed to the 3 RT model... I suppose that's one way to do it.>>
And people say GvG arguments don't pay off! Although in this case it kind of put the GMs between a rock and a hard place. I guess the missile to melee was a bug that needed to be fixed it was just shame it had to come in the center of a GvG argument.
And people say GvG arguments don't pay off! Although in this case it kind of put the GMs between a rock and a hard place. I guess the missile to melee was a bug that needed to be fixed it was just shame it had to come in the center of a GvG argument.
I really really really wish you would have just taken our roundtime off, instead of nerfing shadowstep. That ability is still 100x more useful, considering how stealth rules, and that ability doesn't force someone to use a very mediocre guild ability.
I also feel that the reason why everyone outside of WM's hate Wythor, and why a lot of people hate (I love the guy, but some things he proposes make me rage) Zeyurn is because they will come up with the most ridiculously OP silly abilities, and since nobody else has such a dedicated GM to challenge those things, they somehow make it through. I'm seriously at this point just glad to have a GM that wants to make changes. And I sincerely thank Aurdun for this, even though I might not agree with everything that's going on.
I also feel that the reason why everyone outside of WM's hate Wythor, and why a lot of people hate (I love the guy, but some things he proposes make me rage) Zeyurn is because they will come up with the most ridiculously OP silly abilities, and since nobody else has such a dedicated GM to challenge those things, they somehow make it through. I'm seriously at this point just glad to have a GM that wants to make changes. And I sincerely thank Aurdun for this, even though I might not agree with everything that's going on.
I don't understand why people want each guild to have abilities exactly like another. If you want the thief khri, go be a thief. If you want the abilities of guild X, then go join guild X. If you want the abilities of guild Y, then go join guild Y, but under no circumstances should X = Y. Sure, each guild has nice features that belong ONLY to that guild, but saying that barbarians need an ability exactly like shadowstep or that performs the exact same function as shadowstep is silly. There should be bonuses and penalties to being a member of whichever guild appeals to you most. Frankly, I don't care what the thieves "have" that barbarians do "not have," and comparing my barbarian to a thief is trying to compare apples to oranges, not apples to apples. They are not, nor should they ever be... the same.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
Shadowstep in and of itself isn't more useful, rather it's the ability to stack it with any other khri you want.
Some testing with a Thief who had 142 ME and 148 BS to my 141 perception, 181 shield and 173 evasion showed that, with no abilities used by either of us, he couldn't touch me (even with backstab) but if he put up either focus+prowess or focus+strike he was able to tear me apart, regardless of what abilities I used (I tried all berserks and dances available). He's able to put up focus+strike+prowess+steady=Spar combo and two-shot-kill me. Granted, he WAS higher circle... I think by about 10 circles, so I'll have to test more when I catch up to him.
I did notice a possible bug where I was sometimes getting the "X ambushes you, but you are not surprised" kinda message but the backstab bonus (contests only evasion, possibly penalized evasion) was definitely there. Should he be getting the bonus when I "see" the attack coming? Other times with the same messaging it gives no bonus and I shield block the attack.
This is probably actually not such a bad thing; as long as I can two-shot people ten circles below me (haven't tried, probably can, depending on guild/skills) it's fair enough for me.
I still think at least one (decent) perception boost somewhere would be good. Speaking of which, am I right in thinking perception can't be trained well past 600-700 ranks? I can't remember where I read this but I figure I should ask.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
Some testing with a Thief who had 142 ME and 148 BS to my 141 perception, 181 shield and 173 evasion showed that, with no abilities used by either of us, he couldn't touch me (even with backstab) but if he put up either focus+prowess or focus+strike he was able to tear me apart, regardless of what abilities I used (I tried all berserks and dances available). He's able to put up focus+strike+prowess+steady=Spar combo and two-shot-kill me. Granted, he WAS higher circle... I think by about 10 circles, so I'll have to test more when I catch up to him.
I did notice a possible bug where I was sometimes getting the "X ambushes you, but you are not surprised" kinda message but the backstab bonus (contests only evasion, possibly penalized evasion) was definitely there. Should he be getting the bonus when I "see" the attack coming? Other times with the same messaging it gives no bonus and I shield block the attack.
This is probably actually not such a bad thing; as long as I can two-shot people ten circles below me (haven't tried, probably can, depending on guild/skills) it's fair enough for me.
I still think at least one (decent) perception boost somewhere would be good. Speaking of which, am I right in thinking perception can't be trained well past 600-700 ranks? I can't remember where I read this but I figure I should ask.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
<<I don't understand why people want each guild to have abilities exactly like another. If you want the thief khri, go be a thief. If you want the abilities of guild X, then go join guild X. If you want the abilities of guild Y, then go join guild Y, but under no circumstances should X = Y. Sure, each guild has nice features that belong ONLY to that guild, but saying that barbarians need an ability exactly like shadowstep or that performs the exact same function as shadowstep is silly. There should be bonuses and penalties to being a member of whichever guild appeals to you most. Frankly, I don't care what the thieves "have" that barbarians do "not have," and comparing my barbarian to a thief is trying to compare apples to oranges, not apples to apples. They are not, nor should they ever be... the same.>>
...
I don't understand why people insist that all guild abilities have nothing to do with one another, in terms of balance or usefulness.
Look, man, if you want the GMs to just call dibs on cool things like quick engagement, fine. I doubt you'd get much support for it. Sadly enough, some ideas are just so darn useful that more than one guild should get it.
I'm pretty sure most barbs don't want to trade in all out stuff for copied Thief abilities. What people are likely to take issue with, however, is stuff like this:
Swan - Swan's bonuses, jump to pole, 3 sec RT
(unfixed) Shadowstep - Bonuses from all stacked Khri, jump to pole, no RT means you could previously charge to melee
Can you really blame people for being bummed that, when speedier engagement (something many people including myself have been looking forward to ever since Shadowstep) comes around for Barbs, it basically looks like a gimped version of the Thief quick engagement ability?
The 3 seconds added to Shadowstep pretty much eliminates insta-melee, and the GM statements have made it pretty obvious that it's not going to happen anytime soon, so I bet the majority of the grumbling is going to go away just like that. It's more useful than Shadowstep alone, and less useful than Shadowstep is when stacked, which is pretty much the norm when dealing with Khri.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
...
I don't understand why people insist that all guild abilities have nothing to do with one another, in terms of balance or usefulness.
Look, man, if you want the GMs to just call dibs on cool things like quick engagement, fine. I doubt you'd get much support for it. Sadly enough, some ideas are just so darn useful that more than one guild should get it.
I'm pretty sure most barbs don't want to trade in all out stuff for copied Thief abilities. What people are likely to take issue with, however, is stuff like this:
Swan - Swan's bonuses, jump to pole, 3 sec RT
(unfixed) Shadowstep - Bonuses from all stacked Khri, jump to pole, no RT means you could previously charge to melee
Can you really blame people for being bummed that, when speedier engagement (something many people including myself have been looking forward to ever since Shadowstep) comes around for Barbs, it basically looks like a gimped version of the Thief quick engagement ability?
The 3 seconds added to Shadowstep pretty much eliminates insta-melee, and the GM statements have made it pretty obvious that it's not going to happen anytime soon, so I bet the majority of the grumbling is going to go away just like that. It's more useful than Shadowstep alone, and less useful than Shadowstep is when stacked, which is pretty much the norm when dealing with Khri.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
<<I heard from a friend that Shadowstep was changed to the 3 RT model... I suppose that's one way to do it.>>
ayup. its in GM announcements in the topmost topic.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
ayup. its in GM announcements in the topmost topic.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
I'm not going to get into the guild vs guild thing. However, I do think that dance panther should give some sort of bonus to advancing in hiding for barbarians. Not in imitation of the thiefly abilities, but because barbarians should and do have various fighting styles. One is the loud, noisy, berserking guy that takes down everything around him. Another can be someone who sneaks up on his foe- granted not as well as a ranger or a thief, but still with a certain amount of finesse. Perhaps make it dependent upon hiding/stalking ranks as well as dancing panther.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
I think we've pretty much run this discussion into the ground as far as guild v. guild is concerned. Future posts on it will be hidden. If you'd like to continue discussing the ability without the guild v. guild, you're free to continue.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
I think the quick engagement should be added to panther dance if possible, It goes hand in hand in my opinion.
If I had to choose a berserk that I think needs some help out of the ones I currently have, and the advancement bonus added, I would suggest Cyclone.
Thanks.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
If I had to choose a berserk that I think needs some help out of the ones I currently have, and the advancement bonus added, I would suggest Cyclone.
Thanks.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
>>Regarding shadow step ..
Shadow step requires you to be hidden and you cannot charge from hiding. If you can charge from hiding that is a bug. If a thief wants to "unhide" just to be able to charge and give up backstab I think that's a stupid move to make and any barbarian worth their salt should eat that thief alive.
/salute
-Ssra<<
Can you elaborate on why you think A Barb should destroy the thief at melee? Possibly if we can affect them with a lash or wail, but straight up I find the game is pretty balanced if I have 200 HE (our primary) and he as 200 evasion (their primary) their isn't going to be any pwnge going on. Unless by "Worth their salt" you mean you outrank them?
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Shadow step requires you to be hidden and you cannot charge from hiding. If you can charge from hiding that is a bug. If a thief wants to "unhide" just to be able to charge and give up backstab I think that's a stupid move to make and any barbarian worth their salt should eat that thief alive.
/salute
-Ssra<<
Can you elaborate on why you think A Barb should destroy the thief at melee? Possibly if we can affect them with a lash or wail, but straight up I find the game is pretty balanced if I have 200 HE (our primary) and he as 200 evasion (their primary) their isn't going to be any pwnge going on. Unless by "Worth their salt" you mean you outrank them?
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
I would like to see a swan level II type dance received at 40-50 circle that would retain the balance,evasion,advancement boost but had some kind of weapon perk as well. IE: weapon rank boost, Agility boost, or strength boost. Then turn up the IF drain to something on par with badger or wolverine depending on how large the combat boost is.
>>Can you elaborate on why you think A Barb should destroy the thief at melee? Possibly if we can affect them with a lash or wail, but straight up I find the game is pretty balanced if I have 200 HE (our primary) and he as 200 evasion (their primary) their isn't going to be any pwnge going on. Unless by "Worth their salt" you mean you outrank them?
Generally, Barbarians are better at melee combat because they tend to have more melee combat skills.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Generally, Barbarians are better at melee combat because they tend to have more melee combat skills.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I don't know why people are under the impression that shadow step was changed because of swan.
Shadow step was changed because people were going from missile to melee in less than a second.
That ain't right and everyone I spoke to about it agreed.
I was the GM who approved shadow step and as I got reports from players regarding how it was being used I had to take action. That's my job. I don't always like it. I'm sorry I had to make any changes.
/salute
-Ssra
Shadow step was changed because people were going from missile to melee in less than a second.
That ain't right and everyone I spoke to about it agreed.
I was the GM who approved shadow step and as I got reports from players regarding how it was being used I had to take action. That's my job. I don't always like it. I'm sorry I had to make any changes.
/salute
-Ssra
I don't know why GM's are under the impression that being able to get from missle to melee in under 1 second is broken. If I'm good enough as a barbarian to advance, jump to pole, charge and kill someone immediately, I would probably be good enough to aim and fire and kill someone immediately if my bow weapon were anywhere on par with my melee weapon. The only thing the jump to pole/ambush slash/charge combination did was even it out a bit for the melee only people. I'm not even a melee only barbarian, and I was hoping people like Navak would finally get thrown a bone.
>I don't know why GM's are under the impression that being able to get from missle to melee in under 1 second is broken.
Because it's not something you're intended to be able to do.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
Because it's not something you're intended to be able to do.
~GM Aurdun
Barbarians' Guild Advocate
Gor'Tog Co-Champion
"Don't use logic on scientists. That's just mean." ~ GM Zeyurn
Before anyone says anything about insta-retreat...
<<it's not something you're intended to be able to do.>>
The most likely reason for the above is that engagement is being/going to be rewritten so that insta-retreat is impossible or difficult unless you outclass your opponent to a large degree. I'm guessing the GMs don't want to have to go in and remove instant melee abilities when they change engagement.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
<<it's not something you're intended to be able to do.>>
The most likely reason for the above is that engagement is being/going to be rewritten so that insta-retreat is impossible or difficult unless you outclass your opponent to a large degree. I'm guessing the GMs don't want to have to go in and remove instant melee abilities when they change engagement.
You hear the ghostly voice of Reaperscythe exclaim, "I'm a freaking necromancer I ripple an twitch with totally sweet power!!"
>> I haven't changed anything. The time it takes varies based on the bonus you are receiving.
>> -Ssra
Would anyone that has some high end concentration (say 300+?) mind posting how many second it takes to get to melee with cobra?
I'm wondering if I am just not getting as much of a bonus from cobra as I thought I was, it seems to help melee combat a great deal (206 concentration) but the engagement speed still seems nonexistant.
Does the engagement boost work differently/not at all while in hiding?
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
>> -Ssra
Would anyone that has some high end concentration (say 300+?) mind posting how many second it takes to get to melee with cobra?
I'm wondering if I am just not getting as much of a bonus from cobra as I thought I was, it seems to help melee combat a great deal (206 concentration) but the engagement speed still seems nonexistant.
Does the engagement boost work differently/not at all while in hiding?
Drachus - Interprovincial Gold Champion, Kaith Kirm 370 AV - Open Team Combat, Division 2
<<Any chance of leaping to melee range if you start in a room where you advance from pole range normally?>>
Nothing planned at this time but we are making changes to the system so we will keep it in mind.
Right now the bonuses only buff missile to pole. Pole to melee remains pretty much static.
-Ssra
Nothing planned at this time but we are making changes to the system so we will keep it in mind.
Right now the bonuses only buff missile to pole. Pole to melee remains pretty much static.
-Ssra
OK, I have been bitching for years about activating the dance/advance code. And I love it. Not quite what I expected, but a GREAT addition.
Can you consider now added a retreat RT for our opponents when we are dancing dragon, panther and badger? Or a free shot when the retreat? Before the complaint was about the young being able to retreat from a critter. If you got a RT/free shotted when at melee with a dancing barbarian (PC or critter), it would be your choice (mostly).
Again my thanks and praise to Ssra and the rest of you GM's involved in this fien change.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
Can you consider now added a retreat RT for our opponents when we are dancing dragon, panther and badger? Or a free shot when the retreat? Before the complaint was about the young being able to retreat from a critter. If you got a RT/free shotted when at melee with a dancing barbarian (PC or critter), it would be your choice (mostly).
Again my thanks and praise to Ssra and the rest of you GM's involved in this fien change.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
>Would anyone that has some high end concentration (say 300+?) mind posting how many second it takes to get to melee with cobra?
>I'm wondering if I am just not getting as much of a bonus from cobra as I thought I was, it seems to help melee combat a great deal (206 concentration) but the engagement speed still seems nonexistant.
I tried after you asked me in game... just counting to myself, not actually writing a script for it. With mid-160s concentration I was getting around a 7 second missile to melee time. Once I circle my concentration will be going up a small bit, so I'll retest at that point.
____________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
>I'm wondering if I am just not getting as much of a bonus from cobra as I thought I was, it seems to help melee combat a great deal (206 concentration) but the engagement speed still seems nonexistant.
I tried after you asked me in game... just counting to myself, not actually writing a script for it. With mid-160s concentration I was getting around a 7 second missile to melee time. Once I circle my concentration will be going up a small bit, so I'll retest at that point.
____________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
Thanks for the consideration. I am alos waiting for the engagement rewrite. But it will not be what I want, you have told me not possible before.
I want to be at pole or melee with everyone that is at pole or melee of a critter I am at pole or melee with.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
I want to be at pole or melee with everyone that is at pole or melee of a critter I am at pole or melee with.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
Ok did some more testing today.
Time from pole to melee is about 3 seconds.
These are all times it took me to get from missile to pole using cobra. I'm not sure what all affects dances these days.
Strength : 50 Reflex : 40
Agility : 44 Charisma : 15
Discipline : 41 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 29 Stamina : 40
Concentration: 206 Max: 206
Time from missile to pole.
> 5.65625 seconds
> 4.9375 seconds
> 5.671875 seconds
> 5.640625 seconds
> 5.40625 seconds
> 4.75 seconds
> 4.984375 seconds
> 5.640625 seconds
> 5.03125 seconds
If players are seeing missile to melee in 5-6 seconds that means they must be getting from missile to pole in 2-3 seconds, so why am I so slow?
Time from pole to melee is about 3 seconds.
These are all times it took me to get from missile to pole using cobra. I'm not sure what all affects dances these days.
Strength : 50 Reflex : 40
Agility : 44 Charisma : 15
Discipline : 41 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 29 Stamina : 40
Concentration: 206 Max: 206
Time from missile to pole.
> 5.65625 seconds
> 4.9375 seconds
> 5.671875 seconds
> 5.640625 seconds
> 5.40625 seconds
> 4.75 seconds
> 4.984375 seconds
> 5.640625 seconds
> 5.03125 seconds
If players are seeing missile to melee in 5-6 seconds that means they must be getting from missile to pole in 2-3 seconds, so why am I so slow?
Hey,
I know this is a few months late. Sorry for that. Few questions and thoughts I have in mind. I haven't tested any of this at all so far, so this is completely going on what I read on the boards here.
You can engage faster than normal from missile to pole, but only with swan dance or cobra dance? If this is so, will this be opened up later on for wolverine, bear, panther or dragon dance?
This might make things a little harder to code, but any thoughts on a RUSH type of command that can be used with dances? Similar to the effects mixed martial arts when an opponent does a shoot maneuver to try and take a single or double legged take-down. The key is to RUSH to the opponent as fluently as possible during the right moment so they can be taken down. I'm hoping RUSH can help improve the engagement time and knock the enemy down as a side effect.
- Simon
I know this is a few months late. Sorry for that. Few questions and thoughts I have in mind. I haven't tested any of this at all so far, so this is completely going on what I read on the boards here.
You can engage faster than normal from missile to pole, but only with swan dance or cobra dance? If this is so, will this be opened up later on for wolverine, bear, panther or dragon dance?
This might make things a little harder to code, but any thoughts on a RUSH type of command that can be used with dances? Similar to the effects mixed martial arts when an opponent does a shoot maneuver to try and take a single or double legged take-down. The key is to RUSH to the opponent as fluently as possible during the right moment so they can be taken down. I'm hoping RUSH can help improve the engagement time and knock the enemy down as a side effect.
- Simon
The infamous flounder dance! Oh how it teases me with it's inability to give me a swimming boost. :P
<<No. The dances that have it were chosen because they give boosts to engagement speed.>>
Dang, ok. Gonna mess around with it at least before I comment. Thanks for the info. and for giving us a couple more options to fight with. ;)
- Simon
<<No. The dances that have it were chosen because they give boosts to engagement speed.>>
Dang, ok. Gonna mess around with it at least before I comment. Thanks for the info. and for giving us a couple more options to fight with. ;)
- Simon
