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>>All crafts are allready open to all guilds
Enchanting, lockpick carving. Each is restricted to one guild apiece, with entirely no inclusion from other guilds other than as suppliers-of-goods (thieves stealing gwethstones from the museum, for example).
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
>>Forging cant actually be called a lore skill, no more than you can call welding or plumbing lore skills. They are trade skills and as such should have their own skill set.
Last time I checked, "trade skills" fell into the Lore skillset in DragonRealms. This is precisely why there isn't a "Music Skillset" to encompass all instrument skills.
>>I would imagine guild design, and I'm not sure how you can define forging as non-combat when there is what...1 way to advance forging without combat?
No offense, but it is the guild design of the past which holds Barbarians as "Master Forgers". Warrior Mages were also held as "Master Summoners", but we all know where that philosophy has went--down the toilet.
Guild design changes over time to what makes sense, both from a skillset placement logic and from a general logic which extends partly outside of strict skillset placement.
That's as best as I can put it.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
Last time I checked, "trade skills" fell into the Lore skillset in DragonRealms. This is precisely why there isn't a "Music Skillset" to encompass all instrument skills.
>>I would imagine guild design, and I'm not sure how you can define forging as non-combat when there is what...1 way to advance forging without combat?
No offense, but it is the guild design of the past which holds Barbarians as "Master Forgers". Warrior Mages were also held as "Master Summoners", but we all know where that philosophy has went--down the toilet.
Guild design changes over time to what makes sense, both from a skillset placement logic and from a general logic which extends partly outside of strict skillset placement.
That's as best as I can put it.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
>>I would imagine guild design, and I'm not sure how you can define forging as non-combat when there is what...1 way to advance forging without combat?
There's at least a dozen ways. We have that many just on the mech lore side of the equation. Combat makes the weapon/armor side very efficient, but it's not like we can't keep the skills locked in perpetuity with classes.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
There's at least a dozen ways. We have that many just on the mech lore side of the equation. Combat makes the weapon/armor side very efficient, but it's not like we can't keep the skills locked in perpetuity with classes.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
>>Guild design changes over time to what makes sense, both from a skillset placement logic and from a general logic which extends partly outside of strict skillset placement.
Is that why barbarians are getting preferential treatment in weapons forging even under the current plan? The guild design changed from best if grinding is involved to, "yeah you still get perks that nobody else will get even though we're in a lore-based system".
Knowing that, I'd say your idea that who gets what depends upon where something makes skill set sense is wrong. It's based upon for whom it makes sense and always has, skill sets are just a rough representation of that system.
I think it's amusing that there is a contention from lore guilds over forging, like it's some holy grail of awesome and being useful.
It's not, you should ask for things you will enjoy instead.
After the lore rewrite traders will still be traders, empaths will still be empaths, and bards will still be bards.
>>There's at least a dozen ways. We have that many just on the mech lore side of the equation. Combat makes the weapon/armor side very efficient, but it's not like we can't keep the skills locked in perpetuity with classes.
No, mech lore is the one way not linked to combat. It also plays a fairly minor role in quality of weapons. More important in ability to complete an item than if the item is any good. Of course most ways of training mech lore past vines and braiding are linked to combat in some manner.
Every other way to advance a forged item is linked to a weapon, which is linked to combat at some point unless you can learn faster than you can teach a weapon skill starting at 4 ranks (you can't).
I am --- Navak
Is that why barbarians are getting preferential treatment in weapons forging even under the current plan? The guild design changed from best if grinding is involved to, "yeah you still get perks that nobody else will get even though we're in a lore-based system".
Knowing that, I'd say your idea that who gets what depends upon where something makes skill set sense is wrong. It's based upon for whom it makes sense and always has, skill sets are just a rough representation of that system.
I think it's amusing that there is a contention from lore guilds over forging, like it's some holy grail of awesome and being useful.
It's not, you should ask for things you will enjoy instead.
After the lore rewrite traders will still be traders, empaths will still be empaths, and bards will still be bards.
>>There's at least a dozen ways. We have that many just on the mech lore side of the equation. Combat makes the weapon/armor side very efficient, but it's not like we can't keep the skills locked in perpetuity with classes.
No, mech lore is the one way not linked to combat. It also plays a fairly minor role in quality of weapons. More important in ability to complete an item than if the item is any good. Of course most ways of training mech lore past vines and braiding are linked to combat in some manner.
Every other way to advance a forged item is linked to a weapon, which is linked to combat at some point unless you can learn faster than you can teach a weapon skill starting at 4 ranks (you can't).
I am --- Navak
>>Is that why barbarians are getting preferential treatment in weapons forging even under the current plan?
Honestly, I feel it's because we already have a status quo established from this game's conception, and it is incredibly hard to strip away what mandates have already been placed.
At least in the case of Warrior Mages and their prior "Master Summoner" promise, that promise has not yet existed in the game, and therefore it is easier to change that mandate with little to no blood spilled.
>>I think it's amusing that there is a contention from lore guilds over forging, like it's some holy grail of awesome and being useful.
In this debate, please assume that I am speaking for all crafting skills, which will all be Lore based. In no case am I referencing only the forging system.
But, I will say that I find it counter-productive to have two of the most sought out systems in the game(combat and creation) reliant upon each other, and in this case, excelled at best by a single guild.
Combat and Lore have always been at opposite sides of the spectrum. Either you excel at combat, or you excel at non combat(lore), or you do both moderately.
I'm sorry, but you can't be He-Man and be Master of the Universe.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
Honestly, I feel it's because we already have a status quo established from this game's conception, and it is incredibly hard to strip away what mandates have already been placed.
At least in the case of Warrior Mages and their prior "Master Summoner" promise, that promise has not yet existed in the game, and therefore it is easier to change that mandate with little to no blood spilled.
>>I think it's amusing that there is a contention from lore guilds over forging, like it's some holy grail of awesome and being useful.
In this debate, please assume that I am speaking for all crafting skills, which will all be Lore based. In no case am I referencing only the forging system.
But, I will say that I find it counter-productive to have two of the most sought out systems in the game(combat and creation) reliant upon each other, and in this case, excelled at best by a single guild.
Combat and Lore have always been at opposite sides of the spectrum. Either you excel at combat, or you excel at non combat(lore), or you do both moderately.
I'm sorry, but you can't be He-Man and be Master of the Universe.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
Talk of a sixth skillset is just silly. Sorry. Dragonrealms is a five-skillset game. Always has been, always will be.
Trade skills would fit fine in the lore skillset because basket weaving is a type of lore. As indicated with mech ranks right now, anything having to do with knowledge of a craft is handled in the lore skillset.
I thought the GMs were being hypocritical when weapon forging was being opened up but magical enchanting was staying guild-specific. However, given that the idea now seems to be that all systems will be opened up, it's a fair design. Barbarians lose weapons, Rangers lose tanning, Moon Mages lose enchanting. Everyone with a creation system loses exclusivity for the good of the game. Barbarians aren't being singled out.
That said, I actually think Armifer has a decent point. Barbarians are one of the premier combat guilds in the game. The premier combat guilds also being the best at item creation makes it really, really, really hard to find a slice of the pie left over for lore guilds.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
Trade skills would fit fine in the lore skillset because basket weaving is a type of lore. As indicated with mech ranks right now, anything having to do with knowledge of a craft is handled in the lore skillset.
I thought the GMs were being hypocritical when weapon forging was being opened up but magical enchanting was staying guild-specific. However, given that the idea now seems to be that all systems will be opened up, it's a fair design. Barbarians lose weapons, Rangers lose tanning, Moon Mages lose enchanting. Everyone with a creation system loses exclusivity for the good of the game. Barbarians aren't being singled out.
That said, I actually think Armifer has a decent point. Barbarians are one of the premier combat guilds in the game. The premier combat guilds also being the best at item creation makes it really, really, really hard to find a slice of the pie left over for lore guilds.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
<<Barbarians lose weapons, Rangers lose tanning, Moon Mages lose enchanting. Everyone with a creation system loses exclusivity for the good of the game. Barbarians aren't being singled out.>>
you can't exactly say that. thieves are losing lockpick exclusivity, and yet we won't be able to do enchanting any more than barbarians because it will require magic.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
you can't exactly say that. thieves are losing lockpick exclusivity, and yet we won't be able to do enchanting any more than barbarians because it will require magic.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
Correct me if I'm following this thread in the wrong direction. I worked my barb hard to keep all four edged weapons around the same rank. I worked twice as hard getting Mech lore up around 100. So when the new system is out, after all the time spent working weapons, I'll forge crappy? Because my tert skill is low? Mean while an paper-folder who's never used a weapon, will begin to make better weapons than I can?
You've got to be kidding. I've spent almost 5 years working my Barbarian up to where he's about ready to make weapons.... Not a happy feeling to think that his main goal is now out of reach.
Yes, I suspose a tert skill can be trained up equal with primary. But the argument of "barbs are weapon primary already" and "why should they be the best at weapon making?" should be self evident. Yes barbs are one of the premier combat guilds in the game, and isn't it a bit of a punishment to say that they will have to stop doing what they are best at, to sit around and fold paper, so they can make decent weapons?
I hope I've way misunderstood whats being posted
Player of
Kaltann
You've got to be kidding. I've spent almost 5 years working my Barbarian up to where he's about ready to make weapons.... Not a happy feeling to think that his main goal is now out of reach.
Yes, I suspose a tert skill can be trained up equal with primary. But the argument of "barbs are weapon primary already" and "why should they be the best at weapon making?" should be self evident. Yes barbs are one of the premier combat guilds in the game, and isn't it a bit of a punishment to say that they will have to stop doing what they are best at, to sit around and fold paper, so they can make decent weapons?
I hope I've way misunderstood whats being posted
Player of
Kaltann
This post probably doesn't belong here, but I have the following suggestions, based on my observations and years of playing the game.
Paladins- Should be the best armor forgers in the game. Period. They are armor specialists, and one would think they would have the best idea of how to create superior armor above and beyond any other guild for any reason.
Barbarians- See above, except substitute "weapons" wherever you see the word "armor". End of story.
Bards- Why can't bards create instruments of varying types? Surely this is more up their alley to create custom drums, lutes, lyres, flutes, etc.
Warmages- Weapon and/or armor enchantment utilizing elemental mana. Permanently, or temporarily be able to imbue a weapon with additional fire damage, similar to the way MOF works while brawling, or being able to affect armor protection/absorption for elemental damage.
Moon Mages- They already have a very nice creation system with CJ's and inviso rings, etc.
Empaths- High powered alchemical concoctions of healing draughts that work similar to hisan salve and cebi root, except that these would work on internal and external wounds.
Thieves- Lockpicks are in use by everyone, and can be profitable for those thieves willing to sell them.
Rangers- Already have a nice creation system in place for leather goods.
Traders- not sure on this one, as I have never played a trader, though I am aware they make the best embroiderors, perhaps this can be expanded somewhat.
I believe whole heartedly that someone who has never used a weapon (say a scimitar) to the same extent that a barbarian has, should ever be allowed to forge one that is in any way comparable or even better than a barbarian who has spent years honing his craft and discovering all of the intricacies of a Medium Edged weapon, and other weapons of similar type.
You have been vanquished. That is all.
Paladins- Should be the best armor forgers in the game. Period. They are armor specialists, and one would think they would have the best idea of how to create superior armor above and beyond any other guild for any reason.
Barbarians- See above, except substitute "weapons" wherever you see the word "armor". End of story.
Bards- Why can't bards create instruments of varying types? Surely this is more up their alley to create custom drums, lutes, lyres, flutes, etc.
Warmages- Weapon and/or armor enchantment utilizing elemental mana. Permanently, or temporarily be able to imbue a weapon with additional fire damage, similar to the way MOF works while brawling, or being able to affect armor protection/absorption for elemental damage.
Moon Mages- They already have a very nice creation system with CJ's and inviso rings, etc.
Empaths- High powered alchemical concoctions of healing draughts that work similar to hisan salve and cebi root, except that these would work on internal and external wounds.
Thieves- Lockpicks are in use by everyone, and can be profitable for those thieves willing to sell them.
Rangers- Already have a nice creation system in place for leather goods.
Traders- not sure on this one, as I have never played a trader, though I am aware they make the best embroiderors, perhaps this can be expanded somewhat.
I believe whole heartedly that someone who has never used a weapon (say a scimitar) to the same extent that a barbarian has, should ever be allowed to forge one that is in any way comparable or even better than a barbarian who has spent years honing his craft and discovering all of the intricacies of a Medium Edged weapon, and other weapons of similar type.
You have been vanquished. That is all.
Just realized I left out clerics...
Clerics- Why not have clerics be able to create a scroll or other device whereby an individual can purchase this item and use it to bless their weapon of choice, outside of having to find a cleric if there is an invasion of undead critters for example.
You have been vanquished. That is all.
Clerics- Why not have clerics be able to create a scroll or other device whereby an individual can purchase this item and use it to bless their weapon of choice, outside of having to find a cleric if there is an invasion of undead critters for example.
You have been vanquished. That is all.
And... we've come full circle.
All I can say at this point is, I hope that all of us will find enjoyment from the system when it is released.
>Insert Solomon's manatee icon.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
All I can say at this point is, I hope that all of us will find enjoyment from the system when it is released.
>Insert Solomon's manatee icon.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
While I've said my piece on the proposed new system (i dont care for losing one of the major reasons i joined this guild and why i trained weapons I otherwise would not dreamed of touching) I'm still holding out that it wont be some mockery of the current system. Part of the joy of the system was it's complexity and it's reliance on strength and stamina.
I'm hoping this wont change much and become just some trivial system like every other MMO where you buy X templates within your skill range and the parts and BAM! insta-capped sword. Learning the system of weights and compression was hard I'd be the first to admit it, but it made all the research, trial and error and cost worthwhile when you finally discovered a recipe.
Denz
If you want to be okay with a weapon and use a bunch of magic too, be a Warrior Mage. If you want to own the world with your you weapon and take a good deal of what the world throws at you while laughing in the face of magic, be a Barbarian.
I'm hoping this wont change much and become just some trivial system like every other MMO where you buy X templates within your skill range and the parts and BAM! insta-capped sword. Learning the system of weights and compression was hard I'd be the first to admit it, but it made all the research, trial and error and cost worthwhile when you finally discovered a recipe.
Denz
If you want to be okay with a weapon and use a bunch of magic too, be a Warrior Mage. If you want to own the world with your you weapon and take a good deal of what the world throws at you while laughing in the face of magic, be a Barbarian.
>And... we've come full circle.
Yep.
>All I can say at this point is, I hope that all of us will find enjoyment from the system when it is released.
I agree. I guess I'll save my complaints until I'm sure they are needed.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
Yep.
>All I can say at this point is, I hope that all of us will find enjoyment from the system when it is released.
I agree. I guess I'll save my complaints until I'm sure they are needed.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
>I just hope that mixing is still the biggest factor in making a good forged items
You should check the lore/smithing folder for more details since there were specific comments to address this question, but the way I read the GM posts, mixing/smelting will be simpler (and hopefully less buggy) and based off ranks also.
>I worked twice as hard getting Mech lore up around 100. So when the new system is out, after all the time spent working weapons, I'll forge crappy?
I can't say one way or another, but we have been told that the system will be scaled from o to 2000, and will be solely dependent on lore. So at 1/20th of the maximum possible skill, and given how DR is all about the grind (not the forging kind), I'd say you have a long way to go before you can make a weapon other people will want.
~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
You should check the lore/smithing folder for more details since there were specific comments to address this question, but the way I read the GM posts, mixing/smelting will be simpler (and hopefully less buggy) and based off ranks also.
>I worked twice as hard getting Mech lore up around 100. So when the new system is out, after all the time spent working weapons, I'll forge crappy?
I can't say one way or another, but we have been told that the system will be scaled from o to 2000, and will be solely dependent on lore. So at 1/20th of the maximum possible skill, and given how DR is all about the grind (not the forging kind), I'd say you have a long way to go before you can make a weapon other people will want.
~Hanryu Ves'Shomis
Sword of House Calibanor, Ambassador of the Ilithi Court, Emerald Knight, Keeper of the CEC, ... still a Ranger
http://www.kynevon.info/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
>>I worked twice as hard getting Mech lore up around 100.
Really makes you appreciate not having Survival and Armor as tertiary skill sets, eh?
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
Really makes you appreciate not having Survival and Armor as tertiary skill sets, eh?
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
>>Why does one guild deserve to have both the most comprehensive set of combat abilities in the game and the largest stake in the most profitable non-combat activity in the game? Why do you deserve to have both when those Traders and Empaths you deride have neither?
It always seemed to me that the function of a trader was not to create anything but to act as a middle-man, making items available to the bulk of players that don't have their own armor/weapon forger connections. I assumed that was largely linked to their profession title (trader... not crafter)
For that reason, I would predict a change allowing any ol' guild to produce weapons and armor would actually hurt trader income.
It always seemed to me that the function of a trader was not to create anything but to act as a middle-man, making items available to the bulk of players that don't have their own armor/weapon forger connections. I assumed that was largely linked to their profession title (trader... not crafter)
For that reason, I would predict a change allowing any ol' guild to produce weapons and armor would actually hurt trader income.
<<I can't say one way or another, but we have been told that the system will be scaled from o to 2000, and will be solely dependent on lore. So at 1/20th of the maximum possible skill, and given how DR is all about the grind (not the forging kind), I'd say you have a long way to go before you can make a weapon other people will want.>>
Well I wouldn't say this is completely true, as I heard mention that certain "templates" or weapon types will cap very early on while others will cap very late. So it may be possible to cap some weapon types with lower ranks. So you may have a market for these weapons. I think they are trying to design it so that these weapons will not be "worth" (whether monetarily or exp wise) making for a more experienced person.
That being said, I feel for the Barbs (or anyone for that matter) that put thousands of hours in.
I think people would complain less if the system was flipped ie 10-20% weapons - 80-90% lore. of course that has been discussed before :::smacks the dead horse!:::
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Well I wouldn't say this is completely true, as I heard mention that certain "templates" or weapon types will cap very early on while others will cap very late. So it may be possible to cap some weapon types with lower ranks. So you may have a market for these weapons. I think they are trying to design it so that these weapons will not be "worth" (whether monetarily or exp wise) making for a more experienced person.
That being said, I feel for the Barbs (or anyone for that matter) that put thousands of hours in.
I think people would complain less if the system was flipped ie 10-20% weapons - 80-90% lore. of course that has been discussed before :::smacks the dead horse!:::
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
>That being said, I feel for the Barbs (or anyone for that matter) that put thousands of hours in.
You know who I feel for? All the players of bards, paladins, and rangers that put thousands of hours into NOT training targeted magic because they were told they'd never need it. Things change, and players adapt.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
You know who I feel for? All the players of bards, paladins, and rangers that put thousands of hours into NOT training targeted magic because they were told they'd never need it. Things change, and players adapt.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
>>You know who I feel for? All the players of bards, paladins, and rangers that put thousands of hours into NOT training targeted magic because they were told they'd never need it. Things change, and players adapt.
Not to mention that it's not like forging will be made completely ineffective for Barbs. Those who choose to pursue forging will surely be able to make good weapons.
This just my opinion, but I feel like if the only reason someone chose the Barb guild was because of forging then that's their fault if the guild loses its appeal to them. Being a Barbarian means MUCH more than just forging. It's like if someone join the War Mage guild solely for familiars but decide they can't function or play their guild anymore just because a Necro's Risen is supposed to be at the top.
Even though I understand the concerns (no one wants to get something nerfed or to be forced to slide down the scale in something they enjoy and are used to being the best at), other guilds have worse problems being survival/armor tert. So to my fellow Barbs, I say stop with the complaining (cause it hasn't even come out yet, nor do I think they're even finished with the planning), we're better than that. Let the other guilds whine. If we have to work harder and actually compete to be the best forgers in the realms then we will do so.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Not to mention that it's not like forging will be made completely ineffective for Barbs. Those who choose to pursue forging will surely be able to make good weapons.
This just my opinion, but I feel like if the only reason someone chose the Barb guild was because of forging then that's their fault if the guild loses its appeal to them. Being a Barbarian means MUCH more than just forging. It's like if someone join the War Mage guild solely for familiars but decide they can't function or play their guild anymore just because a Necro's Risen is supposed to be at the top.
Even though I understand the concerns (no one wants to get something nerfed or to be forced to slide down the scale in something they enjoy and are used to being the best at), other guilds have worse problems being survival/armor tert. So to my fellow Barbs, I say stop with the complaining (cause it hasn't even come out yet, nor do I think they're even finished with the planning), we're better than that. Let the other guilds whine. If we have to work harder and actually compete to be the best forgers in the realms then we will do so.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>Being a Barbarian means MUCH more than just forging.
True that.
>Even though I understand the concerns (no one wants to get something nerfed or to be forced to slide down the scale in something they enjoy and are used to being the best at
True that.
> nor do I think they're even finished with the planning
True that. Simu ain't always quick to release.
>we're better than that. Let the other guilds whine. If we have to work harder and actually compete to be the best forgers in the realms then we will do so.
And True that again. Vinjince, I gotta agree with ya. Thats sorta been the barb creed through the years hasn't it. Roars, berserk, now weapon forging. I'm sure we'll still find ways to adapt.
Player of
Kaltann
True that.
>Even though I understand the concerns (no one wants to get something nerfed or to be forced to slide down the scale in something they enjoy and are used to being the best at
True that.
> nor do I think they're even finished with the planning
True that. Simu ain't always quick to release.
>we're better than that. Let the other guilds whine. If we have to work harder and actually compete to be the best forgers in the realms then we will do so.
And True that again. Vinjince, I gotta agree with ya. Thats sorta been the barb creed through the years hasn't it. Roars, berserk, now weapon forging. I'm sure we'll still find ways to adapt.
Player of
Kaltann
>I'd say you have a long way to go before you can make a weapon other people will want
The GMs have said on multiple occasions that they want us making better than store bought at very low, possibly zero, ranks. So I think this is untrue. You might not get fifteen plats for it, but somebody will want it over storebought.
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
The GMs have said on multiple occasions that they want us making better than store bought at very low, possibly zero, ranks. So I think this is untrue. You might not get fifteen plats for it, but somebody will want it over storebought.
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
<<The GMs have said on multiple occasions that they want us making better than store bought at very low, possibly zero, ranks.
I have not seen this. Do you have a link to that? If that was the case what would be the use of weapon shops?
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
I have not seen this. Do you have a link to that? If that was the case what would be the use of weapon shops?
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
<<This just my opinion, but I feel like if the only reason someone chose the Barb guild was because of forging then that's their fault if the guild loses its appeal to them. Being a Barbarian means MUCH more than just forging.>>
Well that is definately an opinion, as people play different guilds for whatever reason they want to. I agree that I think the barb guild is more than forging but I don't think you can fault someone for believing that forging is a huge part of the barb guild, or even that someone picked a barb to forge.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Well that is definately an opinion, as people play different guilds for whatever reason they want to. I agree that I think the barb guild is more than forging but I don't think you can fault someone for believing that forging is a huge part of the barb guild, or even that someone picked a barb to forge.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
<<How do you feel about it drevid?
I've given my opinion. GMs told us to suck it up. Lore primary guilds told us to stop whining. So I stopped posting about it. I lost interest in the whole debate, if it was ever one.
I'll figure out what I'll do when the system comes out and adjust.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
I've given my opinion. GMs told us to suck it up. Lore primary guilds told us to stop whining. So I stopped posting about it. I lost interest in the whole debate, if it was ever one.
I'll figure out what I'll do when the system comes out and adjust.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
>Please don't go there. There are "people actually paying for the game" on all possible sides of this discussion. Believe it or not we actually charge bards and traders the same amount to play the game as we do barbarians. War mages and Moon mages also share this same pay rate. In fact, I do believe that even commoners are charged the same rate. This isn't a discussion about how we should cater game design to any one person or groups tastes because they are paying customers. This is a discussion about moving forward with a new design approach on creation systems for ALL paying and playing customers and as I've said before we have reached a point where any decision made will upset some group. >>
No, what it should be is to make everyone happy. Your solution screws lore tert guilds(which this does).
>That is one possible route. It was discussed and declined. As for the second part about lore tert guilds and their eventual competence within the system, that is pure conjecture. Just as you are completely grasping at straws to proclaim that traders and bards will become without exception the new weaponsmiths of the realms. I understand the cause of your concern and the source and logic of these claims but how about you wait until we can give you a few more details or perhaps even let us finish coding the system before you hop on the doom and gloom wagon and declare that we have completely destroyed the game? The decision to open the design to all guilds was made long before I was on staff and the choice of skills (which I fully support I will admit) was made by Ssra, Dartenian and Solomon. It will happen in one form or other as a shift to a lore focus in full or in large part. Continuing to argue the point is rather like trying to deny the existance of gravity. You can jump off a building and deny gravity all you want, but in the end the ground will still make a very strong argument for you having been wrong. I personally recomend you not make the leap, not deny the obvious and instead look for ways to make it work for you.>>
Oolan, I never said one thing about not opening it up(even though it already is opened up). What I said was that as this system is now, lore tert guilds will be on the short end of the stick. What I suggested was a solution to every issue barbs and pallies have with the system(you know the ones that actually spent the time in the forge to learn it the first go around).
I've been through three GMs dealing with the forging rewrite. This is the first one that decided to absolutely hose the barbs and paladins that earned their place as top smiths. With the system that you've proposed so far, unless there's something massively changed, lore tert guilds will have to spend more time in the forge then lore prime guilds. That is a fact.
>>All I've heard to this point is how horrible it is to be forced to work a tertiary skill. However, quite frankly I've got a warrior mage who has evasion nearly on par with TM, one armor already over his weapon skills (and it is an armor I started working much later in his career) he can pop his own boxes, skin most of what he hunts and guess what? Those are all tertiary skills. If you really want to focus on being a barbarian weapon smith I promise it will be quite possible to do. Yes, it means less time spent hunting to pull off rather than the current model of hunting being what makes you a better smith. I'm sorry for that planned change hurting you. But it isn't a hurdle which cannot be overcome.>>
Yeah if you neglect other skills it's possible or if you're able to keep them locked all the time it is aka combat. For a barb, under this proposed system, would have to give up combat training all together to compete with traders, bards and empaths. Traders and empaths specifically would be able to circle while still smithing unless they are kept in constant round time the entire time they are in the forge.
You seriously do not get the concerns of the barb guild. Changing from the weapons isn't the issue, going in a completely opposite direction after 10 years is. Neutering their ability to circle to forge while some lore prime can still get most if not all of what they need to circle while doing so is. But anyway, this is my last post on the topic because the barb guild's concerns are falling on deaf ears and after years of playing this game I've found out that once a GM's mind is made, it's not getting changed. A solution that would have calmed the fears of all barbs and paladins was just declined outright in favor a system that ticks off two guilds.
No, what it should be is to make everyone happy. Your solution screws lore tert guilds(which this does).
>That is one possible route. It was discussed and declined. As for the second part about lore tert guilds and their eventual competence within the system, that is pure conjecture. Just as you are completely grasping at straws to proclaim that traders and bards will become without exception the new weaponsmiths of the realms. I understand the cause of your concern and the source and logic of these claims but how about you wait until we can give you a few more details or perhaps even let us finish coding the system before you hop on the doom and gloom wagon and declare that we have completely destroyed the game? The decision to open the design to all guilds was made long before I was on staff and the choice of skills (which I fully support I will admit) was made by Ssra, Dartenian and Solomon. It will happen in one form or other as a shift to a lore focus in full or in large part. Continuing to argue the point is rather like trying to deny the existance of gravity. You can jump off a building and deny gravity all you want, but in the end the ground will still make a very strong argument for you having been wrong. I personally recomend you not make the leap, not deny the obvious and instead look for ways to make it work for you.>>
Oolan, I never said one thing about not opening it up(even though it already is opened up). What I said was that as this system is now, lore tert guilds will be on the short end of the stick. What I suggested was a solution to every issue barbs and pallies have with the system(you know the ones that actually spent the time in the forge to learn it the first go around).
I've been through three GMs dealing with the forging rewrite. This is the first one that decided to absolutely hose the barbs and paladins that earned their place as top smiths. With the system that you've proposed so far, unless there's something massively changed, lore tert guilds will have to spend more time in the forge then lore prime guilds. That is a fact.
>>All I've heard to this point is how horrible it is to be forced to work a tertiary skill. However, quite frankly I've got a warrior mage who has evasion nearly on par with TM, one armor already over his weapon skills (and it is an armor I started working much later in his career) he can pop his own boxes, skin most of what he hunts and guess what? Those are all tertiary skills. If you really want to focus on being a barbarian weapon smith I promise it will be quite possible to do. Yes, it means less time spent hunting to pull off rather than the current model of hunting being what makes you a better smith. I'm sorry for that planned change hurting you. But it isn't a hurdle which cannot be overcome.>>
Yeah if you neglect other skills it's possible or if you're able to keep them locked all the time it is aka combat. For a barb, under this proposed system, would have to give up combat training all together to compete with traders, bards and empaths. Traders and empaths specifically would be able to circle while still smithing unless they are kept in constant round time the entire time they are in the forge.
You seriously do not get the concerns of the barb guild. Changing from the weapons isn't the issue, going in a completely opposite direction after 10 years is. Neutering their ability to circle to forge while some lore prime can still get most if not all of what they need to circle while doing so is. But anyway, this is my last post on the topic because the barb guild's concerns are falling on deaf ears and after years of playing this game I've found out that once a GM's mind is made, it's not getting changed. A solution that would have calmed the fears of all barbs and paladins was just declined outright in favor a system that ticks off two guilds.
From all I have heard that we are either going to be put in a position that either you will be a craftsmen or you will be in a guild (and by we I don't mean barbs I mean everyone). Is this still the overall plan or has that been changed.
___
~Ternith Sjomah
And Shepherds we shall be,for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
___
~Ternith Sjomah
And Shepherds we shall be,for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
>You know who I feel for? All the players of bards, paladins, and rangers that put thousands of hours into NOT training targeted magic because they were told they'd never need it. Things change, and players adapt.
In other words, you got screwed over and the only way you can enjoy yourself is if someone else gets screwed over as well. Nice argument.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
In other words, you got screwed over and the only way you can enjoy yourself is if someone else gets screwed over as well. Nice argument.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
heh I believe its a red herring.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
>>I agree that I think the barb guild is more than forging but I don't think you can fault someone for believing that forging is a huge part of the barb guild, or even that someone picked a barb to forge.
It has consequences, is all I'm saying. I'm not jumping on anyone's back about this. But if your sole purpose of joining a guild is just because of one aspect, then you're more susceptible to losing your appeal for that guild if something unexpected happens.
So yeah, the upcoming system will suck for all the Barbarians that put a lot of effort into forging, and I hope that the GMs keep this in mind when developing the new system. At the same time though, it's not like Barbs will be completely shut out from forging like they are the magic skillset. And for the ones that seem to imply that forging is the only reason they play their Barbarian... who think they should be able to alter the decision of the GMs solely because of their own monthly payments are kind of selfish and I can't help but not feel sorry for them.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
It has consequences, is all I'm saying. I'm not jumping on anyone's back about this. But if your sole purpose of joining a guild is just because of one aspect, then you're more susceptible to losing your appeal for that guild if something unexpected happens.
So yeah, the upcoming system will suck for all the Barbarians that put a lot of effort into forging, and I hope that the GMs keep this in mind when developing the new system. At the same time though, it's not like Barbs will be completely shut out from forging like they are the magic skillset. And for the ones that seem to imply that forging is the only reason they play their Barbarian... who think they should be able to alter the decision of the GMs solely because of their own monthly payments are kind of selfish and I can't help but not feel sorry for them.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
while generally I side on the same as the forgers, that want those with significant time forging to "count" for something in the upcoming rewrite, I have to digress from the following statement:
<<Traders and empaths specifically would be able to circle while still smithing >>
while that may be true for empaths <perceive health with someone else in the forge with them>, that won't be true for traders. which need just as much trading skill to circle as barbarians need weapons. So you won't be able to run caravans and forge, or even sell gems - you have to be at the gemshop to sell gems.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
<<Traders and empaths specifically would be able to circle while still smithing >>
while that may be true for empaths <perceive health with someone else in the forge with them>, that won't be true for traders. which need just as much trading skill to circle as barbarians need weapons. So you won't be able to run caravans and forge, or even sell gems - you have to be at the gemshop to sell gems.
<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>
>while that may be true for empaths <perceive health with someone else in the forge with them>, that won't be true for traders. which need just as much trading skill to circle as barbarians need weapons. So you won't be able to run caravans and forge, or even sell gems - you have to be at the gemshop to sell gems.
But they would still be able to train skills relevant to their guild's requirements.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
But they would still be able to train skills relevant to their guild's requirements.
Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!
Pendus,
I'm very sorry that I've apparently not explained myself well enough. I very much want to keep the smithing system one that barbarians can participate in and I am actively searching for methods by which the already established smiths can be rewarded. Using the current system into the future is not an option for a few reasons. Many of the flaws I perceive (which you may or may not agree with) are too embedded in the design of the system as a whole to simply be "fixed". That the future formulas will heavily emphasize lore is a fact we all have to accept and work with. That call was made by Ssra and Dartenian and as such it isn't something I can overturn. In that you are quite correct that I'm not listening to counter arguments. I have to work my design within the guide lines set down by my bosses and that is quite simply a fact of life which we all have to come to accept. I can quite clearly see the many arguments that you and many other barbarians have put forth and I fully understand your concerns even if you feel that might not be the case.
As we get more details we can release and where possible discuss I will fill you all in. Until that time I am going to bow out of this discussion as it is quite clear that all sides are quite set in their stances.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
I'm very sorry that I've apparently not explained myself well enough. I very much want to keep the smithing system one that barbarians can participate in and I am actively searching for methods by which the already established smiths can be rewarded. Using the current system into the future is not an option for a few reasons. Many of the flaws I perceive (which you may or may not agree with) are too embedded in the design of the system as a whole to simply be "fixed". That the future formulas will heavily emphasize lore is a fact we all have to accept and work with. That call was made by Ssra and Dartenian and as such it isn't something I can overturn. In that you are quite correct that I'm not listening to counter arguments. I have to work my design within the guide lines set down by my bosses and that is quite simply a fact of life which we all have to come to accept. I can quite clearly see the many arguments that you and many other barbarians have put forth and I fully understand your concerns even if you feel that might not be the case.
As we get more details we can release and where possible discuss I will fill you all in. Until that time I am going to bow out of this discussion as it is quite clear that all sides are quite set in their stances.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
>>If you are truely looking to be fair to all guilds, then create a new skill set called Tradeskills and make all guilds learn it at the same rate.
This is a good idea.
And I think it would be hysterical if every Barbarian weapon forger in the game boycotted making capped (or the best possible) weapons when the new rewrite comes out. Make really crappy weapons just to practice forging on, but kill the supply of capped katars/scims/basties/claymores. :snickers:
--Lonur Hellstar
[Alisyn] "Drevid i think part of your scimitar is still in my abdomen"
[Ohuzewicasta] "Nah, he's just happy to see you"
This is a good idea.
And I think it would be hysterical if every Barbarian weapon forger in the game boycotted making capped (or the best possible) weapons when the new rewrite comes out. Make really crappy weapons just to practice forging on, but kill the supply of capped katars/scims/basties/claymores. :snickers:
--Lonur Hellstar
[Alisyn] "Drevid i think part of your scimitar is still in my abdomen"
[Ohuzewicasta] "Nah, he's just happy to see you"
I think there'd be a whole lot less anxiety with this change if training tertiary skills weren't so tedious compared to primary skills. If you look at the tertiary skills people have managed to train high, they tend to be skills that can be easily trained, or that get worked naturally in the course of combat. Neither seems likely to be the case for crafting skills, especially forging skill(s).
One possible solution would be to give crafting skills get some kind of secondary exp pool, similar to with stealing. Perhaps barbarians could even get a bonus to the size of this secondary pool.
One possible solution would be to give crafting skills get some kind of secondary exp pool, similar to with stealing. Perhaps barbarians could even get a bonus to the size of this secondary pool.
>And I think it would be hysterical if every Barbarian weapon forger in the game boycotted making capped (or the best possible) weapons when the new rewrite comes out. Make really crappy weapons just to practice forging on, but kill the supply of capped katars/scims/basties/claymores. :snickers:
If they could make capped gear, what would be the purpose of the boycott? The protests now are because barbarians assume they won't be able to cap stuff when the new system gets released.
If they could make capped gear, what would be the purpose of the boycott? The protests now are because barbarians assume they won't be able to cap stuff when the new system gets released.
<<The protests now are because barbarians assume they won't be able to cap stuff when the new system gets released.
Not for me it isn't..
Right now I can cap arrows, make good bows, nice leathers, good plate and chain and cap blades and blunts. When the change happens I'll have to choose. Its the whole reason I train Drevid like I do. Its why he climbs like he does and swim like he does. I don't like to rely on others. Thats my biggest bitch.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Not for me it isn't..
Right now I can cap arrows, make good bows, nice leathers, good plate and chain and cap blades and blunts. When the change happens I'll have to choose. Its the whole reason I train Drevid like I do. Its why he climbs like he does and swim like he does. I don't like to rely on others. Thats my biggest bitch.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
>I don't like to rely on others. Thats my biggest bitch.
QFT.
____
~Ternith Sjomah
And Shepherds we shall be,for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
QFT.
____
~Ternith Sjomah
And Shepherds we shall be,for thee my lord for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
