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I hadn't read this until today. I gotta say I'm pretty ticked that bards are getting the shaft when it comes to using our magic. We don't cast spells on people. We have zero control over who our area effect enchantes touch. If I'm hunting and using Resolve or Maelstrom in my room, and someone walks in and gets stunned while in roundtime, or unbalanced in the next room, they have consent. What are we supposed to do, find the farthest out or last room in a hunting area and pray no one walks in? Even "prepping" is consent? We don't have a prep, so the moment we start to sing we're screwed?
I was under the impression that if we hurt a barb's inner fire (unintentionally) it was not a point of consent. Did this change? If I try and use my magic during an invasion, even helpful, anyone that it touches has consent? Under this policy, even to Lilt in triage you would have to ask every person in the room if it was ok! What the hell are the people who wrote this policy thinking? It's as though the entire game design never intended area effect spells at all.
>news 5 25
Dateline 1/2/2006: CONSENT POLICY: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
--- SPELLS (INCLUDING ENCHANTES, ROARS, PREDICTIONS AND "AREA EFFECTS") ---
* You cast a spell on me! Is it consent?
YES -- if it places me in imminent danger -- or COULD HAVE. That doesn't mean I have to die from it, or be injured. If you cast on me out in the badlands, it's consent, even if no critters get to me before I recover or get dragged out.
YES -- if you cast on me in town while an angry mob is chasing me down (even if it's justified), I DO have the right to retaliate (after I recover from the beating the mob gave me).
YES -- if it harms me (or could have) in and of itself. You Ice Patch me? I can clean your clock even if I didn't so much as stub my toe.
* But it wasn't harmful. I'm a Barbarian and I resisted. Is that still consent?
YES -- You intended, therefore, you're mine.
* I'm a Barbarian. I didn't resist, and you killed my Inner Fire and NOW I have magic on me to boot! Is that consent?
YES -- Advice to the caster: RUN FAST.
* But it wasn't harmful ... it was a helpful spell. Is that consent?
YES -- Casting on me without my permission or invitation can still be interpreted as a threatening action. If you say "I'm going to cast Ethereal Shield on you" or "Join me for courage" and I don't demur or I join up, then no harm, no foul. But walking up to me and casting on me is grounds for retaliation, even if it was just Ethereal Shield. (see PREPPING, GESTURING)
* But all I did was cast Compost cause the room was a mess! Surely that's not consent!
YES -- The items you got rid of weren't yours? You didn't ask first? The owner of said items is peeved now? Prepare for retaliation.
~Tashya~
Umm...
Well I guess it's open season on Bards, according to that little document. Hahaha.
Seriously though, I don't think people really act on that particular part of policy in the case of Bards, though I guess they potentially could and get away with it. Might make things interesting for someone to attack every few hours, actually, when training doesn't need to be done.
One thing that that particular piece of policy didn't comment on was AOE spells/enchantes that are cast while hunting. It has been said by GMs before that someone aimlessly wandering into a room does not have consent against someone who performs an AOE ability while hunting.
The thing I get a kick out of is the beneficial spell effects part and how they grant consent. That's the one that could potentially cause a problem, I think.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
Well I guess it's open season on Bards, according to that little document. Hahaha.
Seriously though, I don't think people really act on that particular part of policy in the case of Bards, though I guess they potentially could and get away with it. Might make things interesting for someone to attack every few hours, actually, when training doesn't need to be done.
One thing that that particular piece of policy didn't comment on was AOE spells/enchantes that are cast while hunting. It has been said by GMs before that someone aimlessly wandering into a room does not have consent against someone who performs an AOE ability while hunting.
The thing I get a kick out of is the beneficial spell effects part and how they grant consent. That's the one that could potentially cause a problem, I think.
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
>>Umm...Well I guess it's open season on Bards, according to that little document. Hahaha.
>>The thing I get a kick out of is the beneficial spell effects part and how they grant consent. That's the one that could potentially cause a problem, I think.
I just keep thinking that it wasn't worded correctly and it must be a mistake. They can't possibly be serious, can they? I'd love some clarification from Dart.
~Tashya~
>>The thing I get a kick out of is the beneficial spell effects part and how they grant consent. That's the one that could potentially cause a problem, I think.
I just keep thinking that it wasn't worded correctly and it must be a mistake. They can't possibly be serious, can they? I'd love some clarification from Dart.
~Tashya~
[Nowhere]
You are in the middle of nowhere. Great white plains stretch for as far as you can see... Good luck!
Also here: Empath Touchie who is sitting down.
Obvious paths: none.
>
Touchie asks, "Could you perform Lilt please?"
>nod
You nod.
>'Sure.
You say, "Sure."
>
Barbarian Krunk just arrived.
>sing lilt
As you begin to sing, a gentle arpeggio of the enchante's opening notes segues into a softly melodic introduction of "Hodierna's Lilt".
Krunk scowls in aggitation.
>
Krunk says, "You make tingle and no ask..."
>'...
You say, "..."
>
Krunk exclaims, "Krunk SMASH!"
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
You are in the middle of nowhere. Great white plains stretch for as far as you can see... Good luck!
Also here: Empath Touchie who is sitting down.
Obvious paths: none.
>
Touchie asks, "Could you perform Lilt please?"
>nod
You nod.
>'Sure.
You say, "Sure."
>
Barbarian Krunk just arrived.
>sing lilt
As you begin to sing, a gentle arpeggio of the enchante's opening notes segues into a softly melodic introduction of "Hodierna's Lilt".
Krunk scowls in aggitation.
>
Krunk says, "You make tingle and no ask..."
>'...
You say, "..."
>
Krunk exclaims, "Krunk SMASH!"
~The one who is obsessed with power.
__
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com - The Sounds of Time
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner.xls - Personal Bard Planner
i think if your hunting and someone walks into your room and your spell hits them it's not consent, but if your not hunting it is consent
--
Treat empaths with respect, you'll live longer
--
http://blog.myspace.com/57223313
--
Treat empaths with respect, you'll live longer
--
http://blog.myspace.com/57223313
You need go no farther than News 5 24:
4) Area Effect -- There are a variety of processes in place that will affect everyone in a room when utilized -- not only spells, but Barbarian roars and Bardic enchantes. If you happen to walk into an area effect, you do NOT have consent against the person who is the source. If one is used for the EXPRESS INTENT of harming you and/or everyone in the room, then that CAN give consent against the caster/singer/roarer.
Please note that this applies to someone walking in on one of your enchantes. If you walk into their room and smack 'em with an enchante, they have no way to know if it was intentional or not, so you are on your own.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
4) Area Effect -- There are a variety of processes in place that will affect everyone in a room when utilized -- not only spells, but Barbarian roars and Bardic enchantes. If you happen to walk into an area effect, you do NOT have consent against the person who is the source. If one is used for the EXPRESS INTENT of harming you and/or everyone in the room, then that CAN give consent against the caster/singer/roarer.
Please note that this applies to someone walking in on one of your enchantes. If you walk into their room and smack 'em with an enchante, they have no way to know if it was intentional or not, so you are on your own.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
That's just lovely, Dart. At least it covers hunting.
But what about the other scenarios played out in News 5 25? Are we really expected to ask every person in a room if its ok to start an enchante? What exactly is the point of having area-effect spells if we aren't supposed to use them? We don't have much of a role in invasions as it is, but many bards like to go to triage and use Lilt, Blessing, Nexus, etc. In a room like clerics, where people are constantly streaming in and out, how would it even be possible to ask for every person's permission?
If every spell that we had was able to be focused on an individual, yourself, or whoever is in a Bard's group, it's might be a different story, but we don't even have that option. Who has time to ask everyone in an invasion setting if it's ok to use an enchante? Our preps are simply starting a song, so is that really consent for every single person in the room who is sees you start singing an enchante? Even spells like Resonance that don't effect anyone else but the bard would give a person consent.
If I sound a little flabbergasted, it's because I am. I'm truly puzzled how a guild that uses and is supposed to be "masters of area effect spells" has any sort of role in a game that makes it dangerous to use their own magic.
I realize that common sense dictates that people shouldn't complain about helpful enchantes, or a little bang to their inner fire, etc. But we're not talking about the sort of situation where common sense is applicable. When people/snerts want to start a conflict, any excuse is good enough, and they would actually have the law on their side for consent in these absolutely ridiculous scenarios.
We're not supposed to be social outcasts like Necromancers, but that little piece of policy turns us into effective social lepers.
My point is that there should be a more specific consent policy that deals with enchantes only:
*Starting a helpful OR neutral enchante in a room full of people should not give anyone consent.
*Using our magic in an invasion setting should not be handicapped by allowing consent to everyone but the bad guys. It's not even IC to warn people you're going to use a spell, because it gives an advantage to the bad guys, but I'm willing to do it. We shouldn't have to wait for permission to use our magic.
*Starting an enchante should not automatically be considered prepping on other people, allowing them consent, unless there is a clear intent to harm an individual.
~Tashya~
But what about the other scenarios played out in News 5 25? Are we really expected to ask every person in a room if its ok to start an enchante? What exactly is the point of having area-effect spells if we aren't supposed to use them? We don't have much of a role in invasions as it is, but many bards like to go to triage and use Lilt, Blessing, Nexus, etc. In a room like clerics, where people are constantly streaming in and out, how would it even be possible to ask for every person's permission?
If every spell that we had was able to be focused on an individual, yourself, or whoever is in a Bard's group, it's might be a different story, but we don't even have that option. Who has time to ask everyone in an invasion setting if it's ok to use an enchante? Our preps are simply starting a song, so is that really consent for every single person in the room who is sees you start singing an enchante? Even spells like Resonance that don't effect anyone else but the bard would give a person consent.
If I sound a little flabbergasted, it's because I am. I'm truly puzzled how a guild that uses and is supposed to be "masters of area effect spells" has any sort of role in a game that makes it dangerous to use their own magic.
I realize that common sense dictates that people shouldn't complain about helpful enchantes, or a little bang to their inner fire, etc. But we're not talking about the sort of situation where common sense is applicable. When people/snerts want to start a conflict, any excuse is good enough, and they would actually have the law on their side for consent in these absolutely ridiculous scenarios.
We're not supposed to be social outcasts like Necromancers, but that little piece of policy turns us into effective social lepers.
My point is that there should be a more specific consent policy that deals with enchantes only:
*Starting a helpful OR neutral enchante in a room full of people should not give anyone consent.
*Using our magic in an invasion setting should not be handicapped by allowing consent to everyone but the bad guys. It's not even IC to warn people you're going to use a spell, because it gives an advantage to the bad guys, but I'm willing to do it. We shouldn't have to wait for permission to use our magic.
*Starting an enchante should not automatically be considered prepping on other people, allowing them consent, unless there is a clear intent to harm an individual.
~Tashya~
>>Are we really expected to ask every person in a room if its ok to start an enchante?
Not separately, just ask the room once. If they are not paying attention and don't respond or say they don't care (even if they had no idea it was going to hurt them), then if it hurts them they still have no consent (in fact, if they want to avoid the damage it's causing then they have to leave, not you), the same as if they walked in on you. Just give them a reasonable chance to respond, just like you see paladins casting courage do.
Once you start up the song, then any damage done by it (unless you were doing something stupid like playing aether wolves or abandoned hearts in triage) would be considered they-walked-in damage, which was already explained as not giving consent.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Not separately, just ask the room once. If they are not paying attention and don't respond or say they don't care (even if they had no idea it was going to hurt them), then if it hurts them they still have no consent (in fact, if they want to avoid the damage it's causing then they have to leave, not you), the same as if they walked in on you. Just give them a reasonable chance to respond, just like you see paladins casting courage do.
Once you start up the song, then any damage done by it (unless you were doing something stupid like playing aether wolves or abandoned hearts in triage) would be considered they-walked-in damage, which was already explained as not giving consent.
J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Heyo!
The safest bet is just to announce you are going to start a beneficial enchante. "I'm going to play Hodierna's Lilt. Any objections?" If nobody speaks up and says "Don't do it", they won't have consent when you do.
Beyond that, reread both 5 24 and 5 25 in full:
From 5 24:
2) Bonus/Neutral -- Spells that do not cause direct harm to the target do not provide consent UNLESS they are being used as a means to do harm to the target, harass the target, or in an abuse/theft type of situation.
However...
PREP/TARGET: Targeting someone WILL give them consent on you. PREParing a spell while directly involved in a conflict with another player MAY give that person consent to defend themselves IF they have reason to expect that the resulting spell may be used against them.
I know 5 25 seems to contradict this to some degree. Note, however, that even the relevant passage in 5 25 does go on to say refer to PREP/GESTURE, implying that again they are talking about situations that are already borderline conflict.
Again, the safest bet is simply to announce your intentions. Then nobody can cry foul if they failed to speak up.
I'll check with the CE SGMs for clarification on 5 25 just to be sure. I'm also working on a way to make a toggle to allow enchantes to be group/engaged only so we can avoid "friendly fire" issues altogether.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
The safest bet is just to announce you are going to start a beneficial enchante. "I'm going to play Hodierna's Lilt. Any objections?" If nobody speaks up and says "Don't do it", they won't have consent when you do.
Beyond that, reread both 5 24 and 5 25 in full:
From 5 24:
2) Bonus/Neutral -- Spells that do not cause direct harm to the target do not provide consent UNLESS they are being used as a means to do harm to the target, harass the target, or in an abuse/theft type of situation.
However...
PREP/TARGET: Targeting someone WILL give them consent on you. PREParing a spell while directly involved in a conflict with another player MAY give that person consent to defend themselves IF they have reason to expect that the resulting spell may be used against them.
I know 5 25 seems to contradict this to some degree. Note, however, that even the relevant passage in 5 25 does go on to say refer to PREP/GESTURE, implying that again they are talking about situations that are already borderline conflict.
Again, the safest bet is simply to announce your intentions. Then nobody can cry foul if they failed to speak up.
I'll check with the CE SGMs for clarification on 5 25 just to be sure. I'm also working on a way to make a toggle to allow enchantes to be group/engaged only so we can avoid "friendly fire" issues altogether.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
I don't get to participate much in invasions (These things still going on?) but I do play quite a lot in the cleric guild. I simply ask if anyone would be bothered by an enchante, if no one responds after a minute I'll start it. Usually just the opposite happens and people tell me go ahead, we want it.
Siltoth
Stealer of Silvy's Hugs
Burhup says, "I still havn't thought of a good present for a theif"
You say to Burhup, "a Get out of jail free scroll"
Siltoth
Stealer of Silvy's Hugs
Burhup says, "I still havn't thought of a good present for a theif"
You say to Burhup, "a Get out of jail free scroll"
I just sing my enchantes. If someone REALLY wants to kill me over it that badly, then they will. I've got favors. shrug Still I can see why you would worry about it.
Personally, I would like to see consent given if some sings the same song over and over again or badly off-key... annoyance is grounds for consent right? Right? Awww. Rats. What about if they spill my ale? That qualifies right? ;)
Personally, I would like to see consent given if some sings the same song over and over again or badly off-key... annoyance is grounds for consent right? Right? Awww. Rats. What about if they spill my ale? That qualifies right? ;)
I sure don't like this, I am with Tashya on this.
In many invasions, if a bard is part of a combat group, traveling from room to room, am I supposed to ask and start up my enchante in every room?
Between MR and this, I figure I will just sit somewhere during all invasions. Wow. Fun.
And I think that's the point. All these little issues, and codicils to cover every snert eventuality, every perceived guild fairness issue, does anyone look and say, "Where is the fun for XXX guild?"
Triage is not fun for a bard, because you do absolutely nothing (from a player perspective). There is no interaction, and you can't even interact with your fellow triage members (Empaths, Clerics) because they ARE busily doing things.
Invasions are not fun, but are frustrating due to MR and this.
For a guild designed to be social (culture, history, and AOE spells), it seems mechanics want us to be solitary.
All the above is personal opinion, of course. YMMV.
Daerlynn
In many invasions, if a bard is part of a combat group, traveling from room to room, am I supposed to ask and start up my enchante in every room?
Between MR and this, I figure I will just sit somewhere during all invasions. Wow. Fun.
And I think that's the point. All these little issues, and codicils to cover every snert eventuality, every perceived guild fairness issue, does anyone look and say, "Where is the fun for XXX guild?"
Triage is not fun for a bard, because you do absolutely nothing (from a player perspective). There is no interaction, and you can't even interact with your fellow triage members (Empaths, Clerics) because they ARE busily doing things.
Invasions are not fun, but are frustrating due to MR and this.
For a guild designed to be social (culture, history, and AOE spells), it seems mechanics want us to be solitary.
All the above is personal opinion, of course. YMMV.
Daerlynn
Speaking of MR, I don't understand why it causes us to stop an enchante all together anyhow. Seems like contesting individuals should have resist every pulse and not get a chance to halt the enchante all together. Just because a musician is in a room with soundproof walls that stop the sound waves does not mean that he has stopped playing.
-Tabby
-Tabby
